BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
<!--QuoteBegin-semipsychotic+Jul 17 2005, 05:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semipsychotic @ Jul 17 2005, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was probably just him getting down as quickly as possible. Bullets won't knock you down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, bullets will knock you down if they're big enough. I'm not sure about 7.62x54r, but larger shots definitely have enough force to plant you on your butt. However, you're probably right to some extent- the way he fell looks like it may have been a combination of the bullet's force and his startled reaction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey man, don't you watch mythbusters? I love that show.
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jul 17 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jul 17 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 16 2005, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 16 2005, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jul 16 2005, 10:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jul 16 2005, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doom: its something muslims say when they do diffrent war things, and non war tings, its even in the muslim terrorist book!
they also said it when doing 9/11, saw some tv program about it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the Muslim profession of faith. There are no two words spoken more often in Islamic faith. It has nothing to do with "war things", it has nothing much to do with terrorism, and had you read other people's posts, you'd have known this half a day ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i fail to see your point, i say they say it when doing war things and non war things, and in the muslim terrorist book it says that they shall say it when attacking to intimidate their enemies, which of this didnt you read? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So there's a muslim terrorist book?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cereal KillR+Jul 17 2005, 10:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal KillR @ Jul 17 2005, 10:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jul 17 2005, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jul 17 2005, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 16 2005, 07:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 16 2005, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Jul 16 2005, 10:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Jul 16 2005, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Doom: its something muslims say when they do diffrent war things, and non war tings, its even in the muslim terrorist book!
they also said it when doing 9/11, saw some tv program about it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the Muslim profession of faith. There are no two words spoken more often in Islamic faith. It has nothing to do with "war things", it has nothing much to do with terrorism, and had you read other people's posts, you'd have known this half a day ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i fail to see your point, i say they say it when doing war things and non war things, and in the muslim terrorist book it says that they shall say it when attacking to intimidate their enemies, which of this didnt you read? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So there's a muslim terrorist book? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, why, I have a copy of it right here [in spite of the 'Bible Spoofs' thread, no less <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ].
That medic is the definition of awesomeness, just to add my useless comment. It's too bad most of those middle eastern countries aren't members of the Geneva convention (although it's not like he was an unarmed medic).
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
Speaking of which, I was watching some show on discovery channel and they were interviewing this Army medic and he said that he was only allowed to carry a defensive weapon, ie a pistol. Has this policy changed during the Iraq conflict?
Medics TECHNICALLY aren't supposed to ENGAGE in combat. They're only permitted to protect themselves or those wounded. But they are allowed to carry weapons other than a pistol. I saw a whole lot of medics carrying carbines and old m16s.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It was probably just him getting down as quickly as possible. Bullets won't knock you down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the dropping on the ground was a voluntairy move on his part. His first user input was when he scrambled back to his feet. Of course, the bullet didn't make him fly back like in the movies, but it can certainly put you on your butt depending on a few factors.
Hunters sometimes experience similar reactions. If you hit a deer that is already alert and has adrenaline flowing, he may run or jump straight up into the air. If the deer is calm and not alarmed, he may just fall right where he stands.
Watch someone get hit by a fastball. No penetration, not a fatal hit, relatively low KE, yet they often go down immediately. Sometimes they'll be back on their feet almost instantly (although still dazed), sometimes not...
It must have felt like a sledgehammer to the chest. If I recall correctly there has been at least one fatality from backface deformation even though the bullet was stopped.
According to militaryphotos.net, these are some pics of Pfc. Tschiderer and SAPI plates after the incident
<!--QuoteBegin-X Stickman+Jul 17 2005, 12:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X Stickman @ Jul 17 2005, 12:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno why but the gap between the gun firing and the guy getting hit seems too long, especially when it was so close. I know nothng about bullet speeds and stuff but at 75 yards from what I know, there shouldn't be a noticable gap between the gun shot and the hit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A bullet carries very little momentum. It doesn't knock someone of their feet, it doesn't even budge someone. I don't know about you but my reaction to massive unexpected chest pain is not to jump backwards instantly.
Lets just do a quick estimate. I don't know the mass or velocity of a rifle bullet, but lets exaggerate a little just in case. Say 3 times the speed of sound and a massive 30 gram(~1 oz) bullet hits a man + armor and junk weighing in at 100 kg(~200 pounds). That will still only change his velocity with 0.3 m/s(~1 foot/s). That's not much at all.
an AK round will not knock you off your feet, and if you have adreneline flowing, you may not even notice it with the curret bulletproof vests. A friend of mine is an army ranger, and his fire teams 203 gunner took an Ak round to the ribs, and didnt even know it until he was dressing down and his side hurt. When he checked his vest, he found his side tramua ceramic plate with a round lodged in it.
It really depends too, since most Assault Rifle rounds are made to penetrate armor AND do flesh damage, nice balance btw, therefor it acts like a really fast moving knife, penetrates straight through. Whereas, say, a .44 round WILL knock someone off their feet.
Now, think about it like this, those trauma plates SPREAD the damage, and the SVD's round is travelling at a lot higher velocity then an AK-47's, it's going to smack that thing and all the force (I think it was somewhere around 100 pounds per square inch? Don't quote that though.) has to be spread over that tiny plate at almost skin level, the sheer froce from that is going to be like smacking into a wall.
The Armor in question, known as Ablative armor, is a derivative of Tank laminate armor and basically stops a bullet by shattering and spreading the force over a larger area.. Ive seen it in use and have witnessed it stop a 7.62x39mm round from about 3 feet away. (1 round, mind you) This plate armor is used in the New standard Interceptor vest which is the center point of the MOLLE system. There are slots for front and back plates as well as optional Side plates, although those are usually only worn by drivers to prevent kidney shots.
My physics equations are a bit spotty, but let's break out the (m1 + m2)v2 = m3v3 type one for combining masses
Let's say 100kg man (220lbs) SVD's initial muzzle velocity is ~830m/s [<a href='http://www.waffenhq.de/index1024.html' target='_blank'>WaffenHQ</a>] (with a maximum intended effective range of 600-800 meters (although the rifle still has stopping power beyond that distance, the MOA increase would prevent proper sniping, as the rifle was only intended to increase the range of a Russian infantry squad beyond the range of an AK47), along with air resistance it would take a little under a second for the bullet to reach him if the sniper was near to this far away). SVD uses a 7.62 x 54 mm R round at 11.98g [<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54_mm' target='_blank'>Wikipedia!</a>]
[edit: and just for reference, the speed of sound depends on temperature and stuff, and I think it's generally around 350m/s or something like that, so rewatching the video, that sniper must be fairly close.
Since google finally decided to load, it concludes: speed of sound at sea level is 340.29m/s]
so:
(100.0 + .001198) 830.0 = 100.001198/830.0
Which is means he would now be moving .1204 m/s (if he + equipment was 100kg); which is 0.2693 mph or 0.3950 feet per second. Which is basically nothing, since once you actually felt it hit you (if you weren't moving in some way) you'd probably drop from shock or something, so that small amount of velocity gained is negated almost immediately.
Woot for armor, though (although that is a messed-up hair pattern...he must've had some stuff shaved or something...).
I would assume he dropped for saftey. Would you want to just stand there, after being shot, looking confused? I would hope they train them to hit the ground and not to move until they think its safe, or they are no longer under fire. Him hitting the ground probally saved his life, as the sniper assumed he probally got the kill, and put the rifle at rest to try to hide. Had he just stood there, he probally would have taken another round, and not been so lucky that time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would assume he dropped for saftey.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already commented on this. It clearly wasn't voluntary.
I already commented on this. It clearly wasn't voluntary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ah, Im sorry, I was unaware you were the authority on the subject. All other comments or observations are obviously null and void.
fyi, Ive taken a fastball to the chest, and a line drive to the shoulder, neither knocked my off my feet.
The whole reason for him being on the ground, in my opinion, was because he just <i>got shot.</i> I'd freak out and he clearly did, look how he jumps after a split second of realizing he was just hit by a <i>freakin bullet.</i> I seriously doubt the bullet took him down and instead it was just the kneejerk reaction of nearly pi**ing himself.
BadKarmaThe Advanced Literature monsters burned my house and gave me a 7Join Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8260Members
Again folks, mythbusters damnit. A living person getting hit by a bullet will most likely fall down. But a person shaped dummy that is the same weight won't. Only the shotgun actually made the thing fall over.
Only the difference here is that the bullets impact is destributed to the body in one blow (bullet > chestplate > body), whereas without protection, a bullets impact force would be spread over the body gradually, or even partially if the bullet makes an exit wound.
I'm no scientist, but I think those factors play a role too.
Seriously.. Does it really matter Why he fell? The Guy got shot, Got Back up, Shot the man who shot HIM and then treated the guy... This dude is friggin' Medical Rambo.
Oh and chances are he went down because It hurt like ****. Yes, despite all arguements to the contrary, getting shot through body armor hurts. ALOT.
Comments
Yes, bullets will knock you down if they're big enough. I'm not sure about 7.62x54r, but larger shots definitely have enough force to plant you on your butt. However, you're probably right to some extent- the way he fell looks like it may have been a combination of the bullet's force and his startled reaction. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey man, don't you watch mythbusters? I love that show.
they also said it when doing 9/11, saw some tv program about it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the Muslim profession of faith. There are no two words spoken more often in Islamic faith. It has nothing to do with "war things", it has nothing much to do with terrorism, and had you read other people's posts, you'd have known this half a day ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i fail to see your point, i say they say it when doing war things and non war things, and in the muslim terrorist book it says that they shall say it when attacking to intimidate their enemies, which of this didnt you read? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So there's a muslim terrorist book?
they also said it when doing 9/11, saw some tv program about it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the Muslim profession of faith. There are no two words spoken more often in Islamic faith. It has nothing to do with "war things", it has nothing much to do with terrorism, and had you read other people's posts, you'd have known this half a day ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i fail to see your point, i say they say it when doing war things and non war things, and in the muslim terrorist book it says that they shall say it when attacking to intimidate their enemies, which of this didnt you read? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So there's a muslim terrorist book? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, why, I have a copy of it right here [in spite of the 'Bible Spoofs' thread, no less <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ].
<img src='http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/9393/handbookw1uj.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
That medic is the definition of awesomeness, just to add my useless comment. It's too bad most of those middle eastern countries aren't members of the Geneva convention (although it's not like he was an unarmed medic).
I saw a whole lot of medics carrying carbines and old m16s.
I don't think the dropping on the ground was a voluntairy move on his part. His first user input was when he scrambled back to his feet. Of course, the bullet didn't make him fly back like in the movies, but it can certainly put you on your butt depending on a few factors.
Hunters sometimes experience similar reactions. If you hit a deer that is already alert and has adrenaline flowing, he may run or jump straight up into the air. If the deer is calm and not alarmed, he may just fall right where he stands.
Watch someone get hit by a fastball. No penetration, not a fatal hit, relatively low KE, yet they often go down immediately. Sometimes they'll be back on their feet almost instantly (although still dazed), sometimes not...
It must have felt like a sledgehammer to the chest. If I recall correctly there has been at least one fatality from backface deformation even though the bullet was stopped.
According to militaryphotos.net, these are some pics of Pfc. Tschiderer and SAPI plates after the incident
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Burncycle/stuff/My20sapi20jpg2012028229.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Burncycle/stuff/goin20for20the20heart20eh20jpg20120.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/Burncycle/stuff/boo20boo20jpg2012028229.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
glad to see the guy survived and he even treated the attacker
i can tell you i wouldnt have done the same if i was him
A bullet carries very little momentum. It doesn't knock someone of their feet, it doesn't even budge someone. I don't know about you but my reaction to massive unexpected chest pain is not to jump backwards instantly.
Lets just do a quick estimate. I don't know the mass or velocity of a rifle bullet, but lets exaggerate a little just in case. Say 3 times the speed of sound and a massive 30 gram(~1 oz) bullet hits a man + armor and junk weighing in at 100 kg(~200 pounds). That will still only change his velocity with 0.3 m/s(~1 foot/s). That's not much at all.
Now, think about it like this, those trauma plates SPREAD the damage, and the SVD's round is travelling at a lot higher velocity then an AK-47's, it's going to smack that thing and all the force (I think it was somewhere around 100 pounds per square inch? Don't quote that though.) has to be spread over that tiny plate at almost skin level, the sheer froce from that is going to be like smacking into a wall.
I have the same pattern of chesthair. Except it's exactly the opposite. I have hair where he doesn't.
This plate armor is used in the New standard Interceptor vest which is the center point of the MOLLE system. There are slots for front and back plates as well as optional Side plates, although those are usually only worn by drivers to prevent kidney shots.
(m1 + m2)v2 = m3v3 type one for combining masses
Let's say 100kg man (220lbs)
SVD's initial muzzle velocity is ~830m/s [<a href='http://www.waffenhq.de/index1024.html' target='_blank'>WaffenHQ</a>]
(with a maximum intended effective range of 600-800 meters (although the rifle still has stopping power beyond that distance, the MOA increase would prevent proper sniping, as the rifle was only intended to increase the range of a Russian infantry squad beyond the range of an AK47), along with air resistance it would take a little under a second for the bullet to reach him if the sniper was near to this far away).
SVD uses a 7.62 x 54 mm R round at 11.98g [<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54_mm' target='_blank'>Wikipedia!</a>]
[edit: and just for reference, the speed of sound depends on temperature and stuff, and I think it's generally around 350m/s or something like that, so rewatching the video, that sniper must be fairly close.
Since google finally decided to load, it concludes: speed of sound at sea level is 340.29m/s]
so:
(100.0 + .001198) 830.0 = 100.001198/830.0
Which is means he would now be moving .1204 m/s (if he + equipment was 100kg); which is 0.2693 mph or 0.3950 feet per second. Which is basically nothing, since once you actually felt it hit you (if you weren't moving in some way) you'd probably drop from shock or something, so that small amount of velocity gained is negated almost immediately.
Woot for armor, though (although that is a messed-up hair pattern...he must've had some stuff shaved or something...).
I already commented on this. It clearly wasn't voluntary.
I already commented on this. It clearly wasn't voluntary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ah, Im sorry, I was unaware you were the authority on the subject. All other comments or observations are obviously null and void.
fyi, Ive taken a fastball to the chest, and a line drive to the shoulder, neither knocked my off my feet.
I'm no scientist, but I think those factors play a role too.
Oh and chances are he went down because It hurt like ****. Yes, despite all arguements to the contrary, getting shot through body armor hurts. ALOT.
I don't think many soldiers are prone to heart-attacks in the field. I'd guess...probably not <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .