First, it would probably be wrong to blame the hispanics for the crime rate. If we're pointing the finger, I'd rather point mine at the systems of government that force people to do such dire acts (realize that, in order for many capitalist [especially agricultural] businesses to meet the bottom line they need to hire such people, people who don't have a leg to stand on and couldn't fight for minimum wage even if they tried because they'd just be shipped back South). Let's be real - if everybody else was middle-class and white, things would be a lot easier.
Anyways, don't worry. McCain tightens the screws as we speak; Arizona is basically <i>the</i> expressway into America because the border patrols there aren't as tight as they are in Texas or New Mexico or California. I reckon that this 'alarming trend' will cool down, especially with the measures that The President is taking.
(However, living in New York, I of course can't speak from any sort of experience of my own.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Plan B: Look at it as cultural exchange. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 12 2005, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 12 2005, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Plan B: Look at it as cultural exchange. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm glad to have him as my Senator.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 12 2005, 09:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 12 2005, 09:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jun 12 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Plan B: Look at it as cultural exchange. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He's better than Frist, at least.
Anyways, I really do like McCain - he's one of my favorite senators <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE RACIAL EPITAPHS BELOW. OFFENSIVE REMARKS ARE ONLY USED FOR ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF HISTORCAL FACTS AND ARE NOT MEANT TO OFFEND. DO NOT READ IF RACIAL SLURS OFFEND YOU. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you think about America's seemingly inevitable Hispanic dominated future?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two words: <b>Operation Wetback</b>. This was the actual title of a 1950's operation done under pres. Eisenhower's watch, which forcibly removed illegal Mexican aliens, and, yes, the term "wetback" was comically referring to the fact that illegal aliens arrive in the U.S. soaking wet after crossing the Rio Grande. We did it before, and by golly, if I had anything to say about it, we'd be doing it again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In 1949 the Border Patrol seized nearly 280,000 illegal immigrants. By 1953, the numbers had grown to more than 865,000, and the U.S. government felt pressured to do something about the onslaught of immigration. What resulted was Operation Wetback, devised in 1954 under the supervision of new commissioner of the Immigration and Nationalization Service, Gen. Joseph Swing.
Swing oversaw the Border patrol, and organized state and local officials along with the police. The object of his intense border enforcement were "illegal aliens," but common practice of Operation Wetback focused on Mexicans in general. The police swarmed through Mexican American barrios throughout the southeastern states. Some Mexicans, fearful of the potential violence of this militarization, fled back south across the border. In 1954, the agents discovered over 1 million illegal immigrants.
In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's something you wont hear about in a public school history book.
A paradoxical good is coming out of this immigration issue, though. The ridiculousness of the immigration question is making it more O.K. to talk about things that are usually on the politically correct blacklist. The PC restrictions on free speech and rational discussion are at a borederline book-burning level, but that's a whole other topic.
You know, considering that the US has had a history of indirect or direct oppression of the Hispanic countries, the least we can owe them is entry into the States.
Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 14 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 14 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, considering that the US has had a history of indirect or direct oppression of the Hispanic countries, the least we can owe them is entry into the States.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We owe them nothing.
This is the exact kind of thought that makes for a weaker nation.
"Aww we did this 80 years ago....poor guys, we owe them something..."
I suppose you support paying reparations to the decedents of black slaves as well?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really, could you please explain to me how an <i>illegal</i> immigrant goes about filling out all the necessary papers and what not for tax day?
Sorry but all I need to do is drive around my dieing town to see that Greenspan is wrong. He's welcome to buy a house here, their real cheap, he can live here for a couple years and then we'll see what he thinks.
Up here in minnesota we have a growing hispanic population and as far as you guys saying they only take the **** jobs...well that is and isnt true.
A good example would be construction and roofing. You dont need education or much skill to get started in both but they do pay well. They also have an important place in society,they are good jobs for the undereducated underskilled section of america.
In minnesota the roofing market is being cornered by the mexicans. They can work cheaper and do just as good a job. Whats the problem you ask, well they have lower expenses and lower standards of living so they dont need to ask for reasonable wages, and they send it back to mexico where 9 US dollars could buy you a round of steak dinners plus tip. So for the mexicans its like making 20 dollars an hour. Many of them are here illegally or on temporary work visas. (well not illegally since the bush administration passed that law granting illegal immigrants temporary citizenship) Yes mexican families tend to pack into houses and carpool (which alot of WHITE people around here could learn from and emulate) and have alot lower living expenses because of that. So they dont need to ask for a reasonable wage. And thus they push out american workers from the business. Because their wage becomes the new norm.
And after they make their money they ship it down to mexico to their family. The money doesnt stay in the local economy, its shipped down south. Who wins, mexico and ameircan rich business owners. Not the larger population of the middle class and poor of america.
We dont need mexicos undereducated underskilled population thats generally the case with illegal immigrants., we have plenty of our own. Thats generally the case with illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants have to go through screening processes, and are more likely to be an asset to the american economy and not a burden. If a hispanic doctor or banker or electrician comes into america GOOD. We NEED those guys, hispanic unskilled laborers looking workmans jobs, we dont . Sorry but thats just how it is. Help AMERICANS first, with the meth epidemic, and all the other big problems we have here in the US, believe me we need it. Help the ones that pay taxes and have for years, the ones who have continually put into the system. Let mexico help mexicans.
BTW Dont get me wrong I have nothing against mexicans. Ive worked with plenty of them, they work hard dont cause trouble and all the ones I worked with were up front and honest, I couldnt say the same about some of the WHITE guys i worked with.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 14 2005, 09:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 14 2005, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 14 2005, 12:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 14 2005, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know, considering that the US has had a history of indirect or direct oppression of the Hispanic countries, the least we can owe them is entry into the States.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We owe them nothing.
This is the exact kind of thought that makes for a weaker nation.
"Aww we did this 80 years ago....poor guys, we owe them something..."
I suppose you support paying reparations to the decedents of black slaves as well?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really, could you please explain to me how an <i>illegal</i> immigrant goes about filling out all the necessary papers and what not for tax day?
Sorry but all I need to do is drive around my dieing town to see that Greenspan is wrong. He's welcome to buy a house here, their real cheap, he can live here for a couple years and then we'll see what he thinks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that income taxes are taken directly out of your paycheck by the employer, and sales taxes are taken at the counter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sirus+Jun 14 2005, 02:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jun 14 2005, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Keep in mind that income taxes are taken directly out of your paycheck by the employer, and sales taxes are taken at the counter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What paycheck?
These people don't have freaking bank accounts....at least not yet, give it a few years though with the way were headed.
What part of <i>illegal</i> immigrant is so difficult to understand.
Every breath of air they take in this country is a violation of our laws; you talk as if they get paid in full by check and then get their cash from an ATM machine.
My mistake. You're right they don't get paychecks. But they do still pay state and local taxes with sales taxes. Plus any "poor" tax, cigarettes, alcohol and lottery tax. In the future, please don't talk down to me, or anyone else for that matter, it's extremely obnoxious and isn't necessary.
For the sake of discussion Reasa, don't get too hung up on the idea that they are illegal. It's a valid point, but it's nothing that hasn't been said before. Everyone entering a discussion involving the topic, participants understand that the act is not legal. Rather, let's talk in realities, "Is it really that bad"?, "Does it actually hurt the economy"? etc. instead of rhetoric. For example, during the civil rights movement, how valid of a point would it be to tell Mr. King to just obey the law because segregation is legal, end of story? It wouldn't be valid at all, because it's very superficial, contributes nothing, and in reality, says very little.
Plus, if we're really concerned about them paying their taxes, we could move over to a national sales tax that would tax illegal immigrants as well as a plethora of other illegal activities. However, that's another discussion, I just mention it for the sake that some people will realize that whether or not they pay taxes is more of a problem with our tax system than anything else.
It is bad because it breeds disrespect for American law, saps jobs and money from our infrastructure, and angers the native populace.
It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.
As was mentioned before America has more then enough of its own unskilled laborers it's just cheaper to higher the illegals. What that does is lower the standards of living for everyone.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 14 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 14 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is bad because it breeds disrespect for American law, saps jobs and money from our infrastructure, and angers the native populace.
It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.
As was mentioned before America has more then enough of its own unskilled laborers it's just cheaper to higher the illegals. What that does is lower the standards of living for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not going to respond to most of these for the time being, because I'd need arguments from you to try to refute first. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> But one of the issues at least is a positive. "saps money from our infrastructure." The more money that leaves this country the better. If someone gets paid for product that gets sold in the US and gives the money to family back home, that's a win for the US economy. The US just got $X dollars worth of goods and services in exchange for paper. So long as it all doesn't come back at us at once, the more US currency that is out in other countries the better.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 14 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 14 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is bad because it breeds disrespect for American law, saps jobs and money from our infrastructure, and angers the native populace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> America is disrespecting its own ideals, sapping jobs and money from its infrastructure, and angering its native population already, without illegal aliens' help (see: outsourcing)
<!--QuoteBegin-Reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Mexican economy is utterly dependent on the United States. That said, exporting workers to this place helps the Mexican economy, if anything (it's been steadily becoming very strong lately, although that's likely to be reversed with the election next year, as history has always dictated). Either way, it's not like illegal migrant workers are making a killing or anything - they just do jobs that America doesn't want to do and they do it for cheap, so long as they can stay here and make no waves; this is not a victimless crime. The real thugs here are the businesses - not the workers who are exploited for pennies.
Unfortunately, a state can either have a strong business economy or a strong social culture; it just can't go both ways.
And anyways, if you'd like to talk about causality, here, just realize that one of the main reasons that Mexico is so reliant on the United States (and, thus, why Mexican workers cannot find jobs in their hometowns) is a little blunder called <a href='http://www.developmentgap.org/rmalecon.html' target='_blank'>NAFTA</a>.
I wont pretend to know alot about economics but I think minnesota loses in that deal, the money gets taken from here and goes to buy products and services in another country as opposed to goods and services right here. Thats less money in the local economy, which isn't good for minnesota residents.
It would be much better for the minnesota local economy if it got the services from its own people. They are more likely to spend the money on goods and services in minnesota, that keeps the money in the minnesota local economy.
You're right, you don't know how the economy works.
All legal, official businesses are monitored by the government (both Federal and State) and they must make legal records of their employees, expenditures, and gross. The paycheck you get from your employer already has its portion deducted in the form of income tax. In other words, your paycheck is not all the money you should have gotten, but part of it was sent to the government already through the business that you are employed by.
Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.
The only major exception is oil. All oil is bought on the USD. So every other country has to stockpile reserves of USD to cover their demand for oil.
In most other cases, one country's money is only good in that country, legally, that is.
Edit:
Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.
Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I'm going to have to agree with Rapier7 here.
Me, living and growing up in the Phoenix area in Arizona, know a lot of about the illegals and immigration. I don't see how we can just closed the gates on our country from everyone else, when our country was originally based off of immigration.
They aren't "stealing" American jobs. They are merely earning them. Maybe if Americans worked harder for lower pay we wouldn't have this problem of them taking our jobs.
And yes, I see how you keep bringing up that they immigrated here illegally, which seems to be your biggest problem. But I'm betting you've done at least one thing illegal haven't you? Did you get deported from the country? I didn't think so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 14 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 14 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're right, you don't know how the economy works.
All legal, official businesses are monitored by the government (both Federal and State) and they must make legal records of their employees, expenditures, and gross. The paycheck you get from your employer already has its portion deducted in the form of income tax. In other words, your paycheck is not all the money you should have gotten, but part of it was sent to the government already through the business that you are employed by.
Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.
The only major exception is oil. All oil is bought on the USD. So every other country has to stockpile reserves of USD to cover their demand for oil.
In most other cases, one country's money is only good in that country, legally, that is.
Edit:
Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.
Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow thats kind of an combative post rapier, do me a favor and turn it down a notch?
There is plenty to refute in your post but if your going to make this into a heated battle of egos I will not partake. I havent said anything to disrespect or attack you personally, I do expect the same. Take a few deep breaths and relax. When you calm down and apologize ill respond.
And Zavaro Last week I quit my job but it was warehouse work, Im looking for something in the data entry field. So my job is finding a job, which I've been doing.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Well, it wasn't really aimed at you but I do wish for you to find a job. Looking for one in the Data Entry/Information processing field shouldn't be too hard to come by these days.
Its only been a week so dont equate me to being a deadbeat <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> , im living by myself and paying all my bills, how about you. However thats irrelevant. I am starting to get a feel for why this forum was shut down, started up, shut down, started up, shut down and finally put up to stay. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If americans worked harder for lower pay then the money skimmed off the top would simply just go into the hands of the elite. Americans demanding more money for their time is not greedy or lazy. It's about wealth distribution. More equal spreading of wealth, mexicans jumping in willing to work for damn near free disrupts this balance. If americans worked harder for lower pay the standard of living would go down for the majority and we would be living like the mexicans, and thus the mexicans have america like mexico.
Were not closing the gates, only making sure that the people come through the proper channels. Every other country does this too, only much much more strictly than the US. Take a look at some of the european countries. Perhaps some of the european members would be kind enough to let us know about the requirements for immigration to their country and how many ppl are allowed in per year.
Holding up the promises of yesterday is just not realistic, there is not an infinite supply of everything.
They are stealing american jobs...well practicaly, I think americans take first priority for the best jobs in this country, villify for that if you will. See 10 american dollars in mexico buys a whole lot more down there than it does up here. So you see from their perspective they are working for the equivalent of 15-20 dollars, if you paid an american or at least a minnesotan that money, you would get some very good labor.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 14 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 14 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All legal, official businesses are monitored by the government (both Federal and State) and they must make legal records of their employees, expenditures, and gross. The paycheck you get from your employer already has its portion deducted in the form of income tax. In other words, your paycheck is not all the money you should have gotten, but part of it was sent to the government already through the business that you are employed by. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes because we all know how the kinds of companies that hire illegal immigrants keep records of these things and send them to the government.
I don't see what your saying as far as the pay check goes, we already established that illegal immigrants don't receive them and therefore the government does not get any of the things you mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know you keep saying this, keep reading it out of your economics 101 text book, but you have yet to offer any proof.
Most poverty stricken Mexican families aren't buying large amounts of US goods their main concerns are food, clothing, and shelter. Now if someone in your family had to go to America to make a living chances are you’re not in a very wealthy family that can afford to buy tons of American made goods. Perhaps they buy some but I can't see all of that money and more coming back to us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! Small businesses have more capital while the lower and lower-middle class American citizen’s collapse into jobless poverty because they refuse to lower their standards of living! It's win-win!
Are you suggesting that we lower minimum wage or abolish it altogether?
Yes brilliant idea lets set workers rights back 100 years.
No being American does not give you the right to be lazy but it does give you the right to any American job or service over anyone who is not an American in America. I guess citizenship is an abstract and valueless concept to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry I didn't realize I was born stagnant. I'll go will my home to a family of illegals and jump off a bridge because apparently I'm a hindrance to the American economy.
I dont think ill be getting that apology so I guess Ill just go ahead and tell you where your wrong in your post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
US is not the only exporter of goods to mexico, perhaps 2 or 5 or maybe even 10 of those dollars will come back to us, the rest wont, but most likely it wont come to the minnesota local economy either. No its doesnt ALWAYS come back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand all too well, your wrong. Often times mexicans prefer to be paid in US dollars because the dollar is stronger and more stable then the peso. In europe its a different story but the Euro is stronger then the dollar, not to mention Im sure the europeans dont want to go through the trouble of exchanging dollars for the Euro, they want you to do that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They may get slightly cheaper roofs, but I guess that depends on the Roofing companies lowering their prices accordingly with the labor drop. I guess its left up to the integrity of the business, im sure most people are none the wiser so do you think thats happening.
The companies get more money but that wealth is in the hands of the few, and the economy still doesnt get nearly as much as it would if those workers were american. Besdies what do you think happens to those american workers now unemployed or taking crappier jobs, (and note generally they have families) Welfare, state subsidies to them, that costs us all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again this is about the distribution of wealth. An economic system is a system to determine who gets what. Trying to make sure more of the profits of a business make its way to its workers and not to its owners. Extra cheap mexican labor weakens the position of the american worker.
Remember im talking about higher paying labor jobs in midwestern US.
When bush passed that bill allowing illegal immigrants temporary citizenship and working visas he didnt do it to honor age old american traditions. He did it to help his big business friends and to win votes from the mexican american community. The part of the mexican american community that voted for bush or MACFOB did it because of their loyalty to mexico. And not their loyalty to america. Because that bill really doesnt help the majority of americans.
<!--QuoteBegin-BukakkeSake+Jun 14 2005, 09:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BukakkeSake @ Jun 14 2005, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont think ill be getting that apology so I guess Ill just go ahead and tell you where your wrong in your post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
US is not the only exporter of goods to mexico, perhaps 2 or 5 or maybe even 10 of those dollars will come back to us, the rest wont, but most likely it wont come to the minnesota local economy either. No its doesnt ALWAYS come back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand all too well, your wrong. Often times mexicans prefer to be paid in US dollars because the dollar is stronger and more stable then the peso. In europe its a different story but the Euro is stronger then the dollar, not to mention Im sure the europeans dont want to go through the trouble of exchanging dollars for the Euro, they want you to do that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They may get slightly cheaper roofs, but I guess that depends on the Roofing companies lowering their prices accordingly with the labor drop. I guess its left up to the integrity of the business, im sure most people are none the wiser so do you think thats happening.
The companies get more money but that wealth is in the hands of the few, and the economy still doesnt get nearly as much as it would if those workers were american. Besdies what do you think happens to those american workers now unemployed or taking crappier jobs, (and note generally they have families) Welfare, state subsidies to them, that costs us all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again this is about the distribution of wealth. An economic system is a system to determine who gets what. Trying to make sure more of the profits of a business make its way to its workers and not to its owners. Extra cheap mexican labor weakens the position of the american worker.
Remember im talking about higher paying labor jobs in midwestern US.
When bush passed that bill allowing illegal immigrants temporary citizenship and working visas he didnt do it to honor age old american traditions. He did it to help his big business friends and to win votes from the mexican american community. The part of the mexican american community that voted for bush or MACFOB did it because of their loyalty to mexico. And not their loyalty to america. Because that bill really doesnt help the majority of americans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And no, the Dollar is nearly equal to the Euro, but the POUND is about 2x that of the dollar. So 2 dollars to a pound roughly...
that's why England doesn't want to go to the Euro
My dad has recently fired 3 mexicans from his work when he found out they're only planning to stay for 4 months, thus dodging taxes.
I say good job to that!
When they do stupid sh** like that... kick em out on their arse like they deserve. I know a few companies that hire in HUNDREDS of mexican employees for 4-6 months, then send em home. They don't pay income tax, they don't pay welfare taxes, they dont' pay for a 401K, nothin. That money gets DRAINED from our economy and brought to Mehico or Espanol or wherever! That's a MAJOR problem!
Bill Gates... has a lot of the US monitary value, though not in paper form.
Baseball/Soccer/Basketball/football players make MILLIONS a year...
Look, morons, when money goes out of the US, it is inevitably returned in the form of demand for US exports and services.
US currency is used to buy US goods and services. That's the whole point of money.
Plus, you fail to realize that Mexico's dominant trade partner is the US. And even if the Mexican in question gives all the money to say...a European business, that European business will pocket the money, and use it to buy US GOODS AND SERVICES.
Why do you think you have to exchange your dollars for Euros when you travel to Europe? Because the accepted form of legal tender there is the Euro, not the dollar.
So, let's all say this once and for all:
All money flowing out of a country is inevitably returned in the form of demand for said country's exports and services. The US dollar is legal tender only in countries whose official currency is the dollar. In Europe, the dollar is NOT legal tender. Nor Mexico. Nor practically any other country except for a few central American countries.
You want to know why the American economy is stagnant for 80% of this population? Because Americans have jobs that can be easily done by other, more hard working people. Construction? Anybody with a strong arm and a tolerance of heat can do that. Let's see what the CIA has to say about our economy:
"The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."
I'm sure you're all familiar with the concept of supply and demand. In a labor market, if there's an abundance of people competing for the same job, then the value of that job will go down. If you keep wages higher and artificially prop up the value of that job, you get inflation, and the economy is hurt because of it. Remember, the strength of paper currency is directly determined by the public's confidence in the government. Inflation destroys public confidence.
And, Reasa, that's got to be the most idiotic statement I've ever heard. Let's say a restaurant has 50% Mexican employees. Now, if the owner tells the Feds that the supposed number of employment is only half (you ignore the Mexicans, who make up half of his work force), then there's going to be a massive gap in terms of expenditures and profit. With such a discrepancy in the fiscal report he sends, there's going to be suspicion. That's when the Feds swoop down and bust his ****.
You can't pay a significant part of your employees under the table, only a few.
People should really open their eyes to the world. The US IS run by the corporate elite. The top 1% of American society holds over 80% of the wealth. And guess why you're still not accepting the fact that we are ruled by a plutocracy? Oh, that's right, because our economy still is competitive and provides cheap goods that make it possible for people even BELOW the poverty line to live.
Inflation means stagnation. It also means higher prices.
Industrialization was horrible in the transition process, but the end result was better for the consumer. And that's why we call it progress.
What you guys are suggesting is definitely NOT progress.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 15 2005, 12:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 15 2005, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You guys have no idea how the economy works.
*blah blah blah* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You keep saying this every single time you post, and every single time you fail to list specific examples or...anything to back up your arguments.
Please show me the supposed good illegal immigration is doing this country.
I'm getting tired of refuting your arguments which keep getting longer without actually stating anything new.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Jun 15 2005, 12:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Jun 15 2005, 12:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just TOLD YOU how the employers pay taxes for immigrants. It's for their own best interest.
You haven't refuted anything. You just simply ignore it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I ignored it because it is simply incorrect.
Please do yourself a favor and read through this: <a href='http://www.illegalaliens.us/economics.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.illegalaliens.us/economics.htm</a>
Based on <a href='http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c0004.html' target='_blank'>this</a>, US currency is not "inevitably returned in the form of demand for US exports and services". In fact said goods and services appear to be not-returning to the tune of half a billion dollars a year.
I would expect everyone is familiar with employers who have a few under-the-table workers: Pay cash, nothing on the books, no taxes on either end. I would be very surprised if a substantial portion of your short-term illegals were not part of this class. And contrary to claims about psychic feds, business income is very, very easy to hide if the company chooses to.
Comments
Anyways, don't worry. McCain tightens the screws as we speak; Arizona is basically <i>the</i> expressway into America because the border patrols there aren't as tight as they are in Texas or New Mexico or California. I reckon that this 'alarming trend' will cool down, especially with the measures that The President is taking.
(However, living in New York, I of course can't speak from any sort of experience of my own.)
Plan B: Look at it as cultural exchange.
Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle.
<a href='http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/media_player/play.jhtml?itemId=12397' target='_blank'>http://www.comedycentral.com/sitewide/medi...ml?itemId=12397</a>
Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm glad to have him as my Senator.
Plan C: River of Lava.
Mc Cain is the man though, I have wet dreams about him winning the presidency in 08, but it doesn’t look like he’s going to even run. Can’t blame him though, he’d be inheriting more work then any one man should have to handle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's better than Frist, at least.
Anyways, I really do like McCain - he's one of my favorite senators <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
POSSIBLY OFFENSIVE RACIAL EPITAPHS BELOW. OFFENSIVE REMARKS ARE ONLY USED FOR ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF HISTORCAL FACTS AND ARE NOT MEANT TO OFFEND. DO NOT READ IF RACIAL SLURS OFFEND YOU. PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you think about America's seemingly inevitable Hispanic dominated future?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two words: <b>Operation Wetback</b>. This was the actual title of a 1950's operation done under pres. Eisenhower's watch, which forcibly removed illegal Mexican aliens, and, yes, the term "wetback" was comically referring to the fact that illegal aliens arrive in the U.S. soaking wet after crossing the Rio Grande. We did it before, and by golly, if I had anything to say about it, we'd be doing it again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In 1949 the Border Patrol seized nearly 280,000 illegal immigrants. By 1953, the numbers had grown to more than 865,000, and the U.S. government felt pressured to do something about the onslaught of immigration. What resulted was Operation Wetback, devised in 1954 under the supervision of new commissioner of the Immigration and Nationalization Service, Gen. Joseph Swing.
Swing oversaw the Border patrol, and organized state and local officials along with the police. The object of his intense border enforcement were "illegal aliens," but common practice of Operation Wetback focused on Mexicans in general. The police swarmed through Mexican American barrios throughout the southeastern states. Some Mexicans, fearful of the potential violence of this militarization, fled back south across the border. In 1954, the agents discovered over 1 million illegal immigrants.
In some cases, illegal immigrants were deported along with their American-born children, who were by law U.S. citizens. The agents used a wide brush in their criteria for interrogating potential aliens. They adopted the practice of stopping "Mexican-looking" citizens on the street and asking for identification. This practice incited and angered many U.S. citizens who were of Mexican American descent. Opponents in both the United States and Mexico complained of "police-state" methods, and Operation Wetback was abandoned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's something you wont hear about in a public school history book.
A paradoxical good is coming out of this immigration issue, though. The ridiculousness of the immigration question is making it more O.K. to talk about things that are usually on the politically correct blacklist. The PC restrictions on free speech and rational discussion are at a borederline book-burning level, but that's a whole other topic.
Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We owe them nothing.
This is the exact kind of thought that makes for a weaker nation.
"Aww we did this 80 years ago....poor guys, we owe them something..."
I suppose you support paying reparations to the decedents of black slaves as well?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really, could you please explain to me how an <i>illegal</i> immigrant goes about filling out all the necessary papers and what not for tax day?
Sorry but all I need to do is drive around my dieing town to see that Greenspan is wrong. He's welcome to buy a house here, their real cheap, he can live here for a couple years and then we'll see what he thinks.
A good example would be construction and roofing. You dont need education or much skill to get started in both but they do pay well. They also have an important place in society,they are good jobs for the undereducated underskilled section of america.
In minnesota the roofing market is being cornered by the mexicans. They can work cheaper and do just as good a job. Whats the problem you ask, well they have lower expenses and lower standards of living so they dont need to ask for reasonable wages, and they send it back to mexico where 9 US dollars could buy you a round of steak dinners plus tip. So for the mexicans its like making 20 dollars an hour. Many of them are here illegally or on temporary work visas. (well not illegally since the bush administration passed that law granting illegal immigrants temporary citizenship) Yes mexican families tend to pack into houses and carpool (which alot of WHITE people around here could learn from and emulate) and have alot lower living expenses because of that. So they dont need to ask for a reasonable wage. And thus they push out american workers from the business. Because their wage becomes the new norm.
And after they make their money they ship it down to mexico to their family. The money doesnt stay in the local economy, its shipped down south. Who wins, mexico and ameircan rich business owners. Not the larger population of the middle class and poor of america.
We dont need mexicos undereducated underskilled population thats generally the case with illegal immigrants., we have plenty of our own. Thats generally the case with illegal immigrants. LEGAL immigrants have to go through screening processes, and are more likely to be an asset to the american economy and not a burden. If a hispanic doctor or banker or electrician comes into america GOOD. We NEED those guys, hispanic unskilled laborers looking workmans jobs, we dont . Sorry but thats just how it is. Help AMERICANS first, with the meth epidemic, and all the other big problems we have here in the US, believe me we need it. Help the ones that pay taxes and have for years, the ones who have continually put into the system. Let mexico help mexicans.
BTW Dont get me wrong I have nothing against mexicans. Ive worked with plenty of them, they work hard dont cause trouble and all the ones I worked with were up front and honest, I couldnt say the same about some of the WHITE guys i worked with.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We owe them nothing.
This is the exact kind of thought that makes for a weaker nation.
"Aww we did this 80 years ago....poor guys, we owe them something..."
I suppose you support paying reparations to the decedents of black slaves as well?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, illegal immigrants do pay taxes, according to Greenspan, and their contributions to the economy actually outweigh the drain they put on social services.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really, could you please explain to me how an <i>illegal</i> immigrant goes about filling out all the necessary papers and what not for tax day?
Sorry but all I need to do is drive around my dieing town to see that Greenspan is wrong. He's welcome to buy a house here, their real cheap, he can live here for a couple years and then we'll see what he thinks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind that income taxes are taken directly out of your paycheck by the employer, and sales taxes are taken at the counter.
What paycheck?
These people don't have freaking bank accounts....at least not yet, give it a few years though with the way were headed.
What part of <i>illegal</i> immigrant is so difficult to understand.
Every breath of air they take in this country is a violation of our laws; you talk as if they get paid in full by check and then get their cash from an ATM machine.
Last I checked our laws aren't that lax yet.
For the sake of discussion Reasa, don't get too hung up on the idea that they are illegal. It's a valid point, but it's nothing that hasn't been said before. Everyone entering a discussion involving the topic, participants understand that the act is not legal. Rather, let's talk in realities, "Is it really that bad"?, "Does it actually hurt the economy"? etc. instead of rhetoric. For example, during the civil rights movement, how valid of a point would it be to tell Mr. King to just obey the law because segregation is legal, end of story? It wouldn't be valid at all, because it's very superficial, contributes nothing, and in reality, says very little.
Plus, if we're really concerned about them paying their taxes, we could move over to a national sales tax that would tax illegal immigrants as well as a plethora of other illegal activities. However, that's another discussion, I just mention it for the sake that some people will realize that whether or not they pay taxes is more of a problem with our tax system than anything else.
It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.
As was mentioned before America has more then enough of its own unskilled laborers it's just cheaper to higher the illegals. What that does is lower the standards of living for everyone.
It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.
As was mentioned before America has more then enough of its own unskilled laborers it's just cheaper to higher the illegals. What that does is lower the standards of living for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to respond to most of these for the time being, because I'd need arguments from you to try to refute first. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> But one of the issues at least is a positive. "saps money from our infrastructure." The more money that leaves this country the better. If someone gets paid for product that gets sold in the US and gives the money to family back home, that's a win for the US economy. The US just got $X dollars worth of goods and services in exchange for paper. So long as it all doesn't come back at us at once, the more US currency that is out in other countries the better.
America is disrespecting its own ideals, sapping jobs and money from its infrastructure, and angering its native population already, without illegal aliens' help (see: outsourcing)
<!--QuoteBegin-Reasa+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It hurts the economy because the only people who really benefit are the illegals, greedy American business owners, I like to call them traitors, and slowly but surely the Mexican economy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Mexican economy is utterly dependent on the United States. That said, exporting workers to this place helps the Mexican economy, if anything (it's been steadily becoming very strong lately, although that's likely to be reversed with the election next year, as history has always dictated). Either way, it's not like illegal migrant workers are making a killing or anything - they just do jobs that America doesn't want to do and they do it for cheap, so long as they can stay here and make no waves; this is not a victimless crime. The real thugs here are the businesses - not the workers who are exploited for pennies.
Unfortunately, a state can either have a strong business economy or a strong social culture; it just can't go both ways.
And anyways, if you'd like to talk about causality, here, just realize that one of the main reasons that Mexico is so reliant on the United States (and, thus, why Mexican workers cannot find jobs in their hometowns) is a little blunder called <a href='http://www.developmentgap.org/rmalecon.html' target='_blank'>NAFTA</a>.
It would be much better for the minnesota local economy if it got the services from its own people. They are more likely to spend the money on goods and services in minnesota, that keeps the money in the minnesota local economy.
All legal, official businesses are monitored by the government (both Federal and State) and they must make legal records of their employees, expenditures, and gross. The paycheck you get from your employer already has its portion deducted in the form of income tax. In other words, your paycheck is not all the money you should have gotten, but part of it was sent to the government already through the business that you are employed by.
Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.
The only major exception is oil. All oil is bought on the USD. So every other country has to stockpile reserves of USD to cover their demand for oil.
In most other cases, one country's money is only good in that country, legally, that is.
Edit:
Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.
Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward.
Me, living and growing up in the Phoenix area in Arizona, know a lot of about the illegals and immigration. I don't see how we can just closed the gates on our country from everyone else, when our country was originally based off of immigration.
They aren't "stealing" American jobs. They are merely earning them. Maybe if Americans worked harder for lower pay we wouldn't have this problem of them taking our jobs.
And yes, I see how you keep bringing up that they immigrated here illegally, which seems to be your biggest problem. But I'm betting you've done at least one thing illegal haven't you? Did you get deported from the country? I didn't think so.
Let me ask you this - what's your job?
All legal, official businesses are monitored by the government (both Federal and State) and they must make legal records of their employees, expenditures, and gross. The paycheck you get from your employer already has its portion deducted in the form of income tax. In other words, your paycheck is not all the money you should have gotten, but part of it was sent to the government already through the business that you are employed by.
Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.
The only major exception is oil. All oil is bought on the USD. So every other country has to stockpile reserves of USD to cover their demand for oil.
In most other cases, one country's money is only good in that country, legally, that is.
Edit:
Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.
Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow thats kind of an combative post rapier, do me a favor and turn it down a notch?
There is plenty to refute in your post but if your going to make this into a heated battle of egos I will not partake. I havent said anything to disrespect or attack you personally, I do expect the same. Take a few deep breaths and relax. When you calm down and apologize ill respond.
And Zavaro Last week I quit my job but it was warehouse work, Im looking for something in the data entry field. So my job is finding a job, which I've been doing.
If americans worked harder for lower pay then the money skimmed off the top would simply just go into the hands of the elite. Americans demanding more money for their time is not greedy or lazy. It's about wealth distribution. More equal spreading of wealth, mexicans jumping in willing to work for damn near free disrupts this balance. If americans worked harder for lower pay the standard of living would go down for the majority and we would be living like the mexicans, and thus the mexicans have america like mexico.
Were not closing the gates, only making sure that the people come through the proper channels. Every other country does this too, only much much more strictly than the US. Take a look at some of the european countries. Perhaps some of the european members would be kind enough to let us know about the requirements for immigration to their country and how many ppl are allowed in per year.
Holding up the promises of yesterday is just not realistic, there is not an infinite supply of everything.
They are stealing american jobs...well practicaly, I think americans take first priority for the best jobs in this country, villify for that if you will. See 10 american dollars in mexico buys a whole lot more down there than it does up here. So you see from their perspective they are working for the equivalent of 15-20 dollars, if you paid an american or at least a minnesotan that money, you would get some very good labor.
Yes because we all know how the kinds of companies that hire illegal immigrants keep records of these things and send them to the government.
I don't see what your saying as far as the pay check goes, we already established that illegal immigrants don't receive them and therefore the government does not get any of the things you mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.
Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know you keep saying this, keep reading it out of your economics 101 text book, but you have yet to offer any proof.
Most poverty stricken Mexican families aren't buying large amounts of US goods their main concerns are food, clothing, and shelter. Now if someone in your family had to go to America to make a living chances are you’re not in a very wealthy family that can afford to buy tons of American made goods. Perhaps they buy some but I can't see all of that money and more coming back to us.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
Somebody's hiring those Mexicans. And they probably aren't multinational conglomerates.
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! Small businesses have more capital while the lower and lower-middle class American citizen’s collapse into jobless poverty because they refuse to lower their standards of living! It's win-win!
Are you suggesting that we lower minimum wage or abolish it altogether?
Yes brilliant idea lets set workers rights back 100 years.
No being American does not give you the right to be lazy but it does give you the right to any American job or service over anyone who is not an American in America. I guess citizenship is an abstract and valueless concept to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and Reasa, that's just a form of rhetoric. I don't give a damn what we do to other nations in international politics, I just care about the strength of the States. And guess what? People who are born in the US are inherently stagnant, immigration keeps this country progressing forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry I didn't realize I was born stagnant. I'll go will my home to a family of illegals and jump off a bridge because apparently I'm a hindrance to the American economy.
<img src='http://webpost.net/ma/mayzee/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
US is not the only exporter of goods to mexico, perhaps 2 or 5 or maybe even 10 of those dollars will come back to us, the rest wont, but most likely it wont come to the minnesota local economy either. No its doesnt ALWAYS come back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand all too well, your wrong. Often times mexicans prefer to be paid in US dollars because the dollar is stronger and more stable then the peso. In europe its a different story but the Euro is stronger then the dollar, not to mention Im sure the europeans dont want to go through the trouble of exchanging dollars for the Euro, they want you to do that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They may get slightly cheaper roofs, but I guess that depends on the Roofing companies lowering their prices accordingly with the labor drop. I guess its left up to the integrity of the business, im sure most people are none the wiser so do you think thats happening.
The companies get more money but that wealth is in the hands of the few, and the economy still doesnt get nearly as much as it would if those workers were american. Besdies what do you think happens to those american workers now unemployed or taking crappier jobs, (and note generally they have families) Welfare, state subsidies to them, that costs us all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again this is about the distribution of wealth. An economic system is a system to determine who gets what. Trying to make sure more of the profits of a business make its way to its workers and not to its owners. Extra cheap mexican labor weakens the position of the american worker.
Remember im talking about higher paying labor jobs in midwestern US.
When bush passed that bill allowing illegal immigrants temporary citizenship and working visas he didnt do it to honor age old american traditions. He did it to help his big business friends and to win votes from the mexican american community. The part of the mexican american community that voted for bush or MACFOB did it because of their loyalty to mexico. And not their loyalty to america. Because that bill really doesnt help the majority of americans.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to mention that money going out of the United States ALWAYS comes back in the form of demand for US exports, services, and commodities. For instance, if I took 20 USD out of the country and gave it to a Mexican, he in turn would use that money to buy US goods, or give it somebody who would.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
US is not the only exporter of goods to mexico, perhaps 2 or 5 or maybe even 10 of those dollars will come back to us, the rest wont, but most likely it wont come to the minnesota local economy either. No its doesnt ALWAYS come back.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Understand what "legal tender" is, and then realize that officially, a country's currency is only good in that country.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand all too well, your wrong. Often times mexicans prefer to be paid in US dollars because the dollar is stronger and more stable then the peso. In europe its a different story but the Euro is stronger then the dollar, not to mention Im sure the europeans dont want to go through the trouble of exchanging dollars for the Euro, they want you to do that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Minnesota does not lose in that respect. In fact, you just said that Mexicans are willing to do the same job for less money. What does this mean?
SMALL BUSINESSES IN MINNESOTA HAVE MORE CAPITAL TO INVEST IN YOUR LOCAL AREA.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They may get slightly cheaper roofs, but I guess that depends on the Roofing companies lowering their prices accordingly with the labor drop. I guess its left up to the integrity of the business, im sure most people are none the wiser so do you think thats happening.
The companies get more money but that wealth is in the hands of the few, and the economy still doesnt get nearly as much as it would if those workers were american. Besdies what do you think happens to those american workers now unemployed or taking crappier jobs, (and note generally they have families) Welfare, state subsidies to them, that costs us all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
When you have people working for more than they should be paid, what happens? Inflation. Because you're paying people more money for less work.
Maybe you guys should take a leaf out of the Mexican books, because just because you're American doesn't mean you're afforded to the right to be lazy and get paid money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again this is about the distribution of wealth. An economic system is a system to determine who gets what. Trying to make sure more of the profits of a business make its way to its workers and not to its owners. Extra cheap mexican labor weakens the position of the american worker.
Remember im talking about higher paying labor jobs in midwestern US.
When bush passed that bill allowing illegal immigrants temporary citizenship and working visas he didnt do it to honor age old american traditions. He did it to help his big business friends and to win votes from the mexican american community. The part of the mexican american community that voted for bush or MACFOB did it because of their loyalty to mexico. And not their loyalty to america. Because that bill really doesnt help the majority of americans. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And no, the Dollar is nearly equal to the Euro, but the POUND is about 2x that of the dollar. So 2 dollars to a pound roughly...
that's why England doesn't want to go to the Euro
My dad has recently fired 3 mexicans from his work when he found out they're only planning to stay for 4 months, thus dodging taxes.
I say good job to that!
When they do stupid sh** like that... kick em out on their arse like they deserve. I know a few companies that hire in HUNDREDS of mexican employees for 4-6 months, then send em home. They don't pay income tax, they don't pay welfare taxes, they dont' pay for a 401K, nothin. That money gets DRAINED from our economy and brought to Mehico or Espanol or wherever! That's a MAJOR problem!
Bill Gates... has a lot of the US monitary value, though not in paper form.
Baseball/Soccer/Basketball/football players make MILLIONS a year...
THAT is inflation for ya!
Look, morons, when money goes out of the US, it is inevitably returned in the form of demand for US exports and services.
US currency is used to buy US goods and services. That's the whole point of money.
Plus, you fail to realize that Mexico's dominant trade partner is the US. And even if the Mexican in question gives all the money to say...a European business, that European business will pocket the money, and use it to buy US GOODS AND SERVICES.
Why do you think you have to exchange your dollars for Euros when you travel to Europe? Because the accepted form of legal tender there is the Euro, not the dollar.
So, let's all say this once and for all:
All money flowing out of a country is inevitably returned in the form of demand for said country's exports and services. The US dollar is legal tender only in countries whose official currency is the dollar. In Europe, the dollar is NOT legal tender. Nor Mexico. Nor practically any other country except for a few central American countries.
You want to know why the American economy is stagnant for 80% of this population? Because Americans have jobs that can be easily done by other, more hard working people. Construction? Anybody with a strong arm and a tolerance of heat can do that. Let's see what the CIA has to say about our economy:
"The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households."
I'm sure you're all familiar with the concept of supply and demand. In a labor market, if there's an abundance of people competing for the same job, then the value of that job will go down. If you keep wages higher and artificially prop up the value of that job, you get inflation, and the economy is hurt because of it. Remember, the strength of paper currency is directly determined by the public's confidence in the government. Inflation destroys public confidence.
And, Reasa, that's got to be the most idiotic statement I've ever heard. Let's say a restaurant has 50% Mexican employees. Now, if the owner tells the Feds that the supposed number of employment is only half (you ignore the Mexicans, who make up half of his work force), then there's going to be a massive gap in terms of expenditures and profit. With such a discrepancy in the fiscal report he sends, there's going to be suspicion. That's when the Feds swoop down and bust his ****.
You can't pay a significant part of your employees under the table, only a few.
People should really open their eyes to the world. The US IS run by the corporate elite. The top 1% of American society holds over 80% of the wealth. And guess why you're still not accepting the fact that we are ruled by a plutocracy? Oh, that's right, because our economy still is competitive and provides cheap goods that make it possible for people even BELOW the poverty line to live.
Inflation means stagnation. It also means higher prices.
Industrialization was horrible in the transition process, but the end result was better for the consumer. And that's why we call it progress.
What you guys are suggesting is definitely NOT progress.
*blah blah blah*
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep saying this every single time you post, and every single time you fail to list specific examples or...anything to back up your arguments.
Please show me the supposed good illegal immigration is doing this country.
I'm getting tired of refuting your arguments which keep getting longer without actually stating anything new.
You haven't refuted anything. You just simply ignore it.
You haven't refuted anything. You just simply ignore it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I ignored it because it is simply incorrect.
Please do yourself a favor and read through this: <a href='http://www.illegalaliens.us/economics.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.illegalaliens.us/economics.htm</a>
I would expect everyone is familiar with employers who have a few under-the-table workers: Pay cash, nothing on the books, no taxes on either end. I would be very surprised if a substantial portion of your short-term illegals were not part of this class. And contrary to claims about psychic feds, business income is very, very easy to hide if the company chooses to.