Hispanic Population Boom
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Hispanics now 1/7 US population</div> <a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8147476/' target='_blank'>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8147476/</a>
Just thought the forums could use a dose of meaningful non-religious debate.
It seems that in most of our life-times Americas majority population could become the Hispanics. Their birthrate drastically outstrips that of whites and millions more continue to flood into the country every year.
I think the opinion poll represents how the majority of the people in this country feel about this.
<a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8149492/' target='_blank'>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8149492/</a>
61% say it’s a bad thing for America only 25% think it’s a good thing, at this time.
What do you think about America's seemingly inevitable Hispanic dominated future?
Just thought the forums could use a dose of meaningful non-religious debate.
It seems that in most of our life-times Americas majority population could become the Hispanics. Their birthrate drastically outstrips that of whites and millions more continue to flood into the country every year.
I think the opinion poll represents how the majority of the people in this country feel about this.
<a href='http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8149492/' target='_blank'>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8149492/</a>
61% say it’s a bad thing for America only 25% think it’s a good thing, at this time.
What do you think about America's seemingly inevitable Hispanic dominated future?
Comments
However, and I note that MSNBC gets this wrong again, <u>illegal</u> immigration IS a major issue for (what I believe to be) a majority of the population. The poll doesn't distinguish between the factors that generate the population boom but that's where I would assign the concern.
Anyone else know about the birthrates among Irish immigrants in earlier history? I suspect that's its more due to the Catholic upbringing that their voluntary birth rates are so high.
Welcome to America, I say!
~ DarkATi
Not to mention previous waves of immigration were much easier to control thanks to the Atlantic Ocean. Also seeing as there is very little stopping illegals from crossing our border this wave is much more overwhelming. We might be surprised at what our "friendly" past towards immigrants would look like if we shared a large land border with countries like Ireland and Italy.
Not to mention the fact that American society on the whole is much more liberal now-a-days. Why should anyone learn English when companies go out of their way to put Spanish labels on everything and you can press 2 for English? Why learn Spanish when most American born children have a year or two of Spanish crammed down their throats in high-school and are highly encouraged by colleges to take up to four.
I'm sorry but I see an unofficially bilingual country with a mounting cultural divide and racial tensions as a very bad thing.
Of course the majority is paralyzed to act due to a cancer from within.
This is nativism rearing its ugly head again.
Look, immigration isn't America's problem. Immigrants have made up America. They made it strong, they made it what it is now. Who are you to say that we're going to be a weaker nation because immigrants want to come to this nation?
1/7 of our nation. That's great. That really is. Guess who's also 1/7 of our nation? Blacks. Yeah, blacks. So I guess we're being taken over by Africans, right? Our nation's going to go down the ****ter? Is that what you seriously think?
Are you of German, Irish, Eastern European, French, hell, any European nationality? Oh, and by the way, Reasa, except for times of extreme nativism (like the one you're displaying RIGHT NOW), our immigration policy had been extremely lenient until after World War II.
In fact, many Irish immigrants (during the time of the Civil War) that came here would be pressured into becoming a citizen and then enlisting for the Union army after they were granted citizenship (you have to be a citizen to serve) right off the boat.
The time before WWI had the greatest, largest period of immigration we've ever seen. And of course, after, we shut down the floodgates and look what good that did. Nothing.
Look, let's get a few things straight:
Poor families tend to have lots of children. Take a look at the impoverished <b>continent</b>, their population will double every 17 years. Pretty damn scary, huh? That's what poverty does. But when poor people come to the US, they work their way up and eventually become assimilated into the middle class and then they start to have less children. It's a FACT.
Now, if you want to ignore all my points so far, tell me this:
What is the problem with a large Hispanic population in the States?
I'm not quite so sure about this. I would argue that it's backwards, large families tend to be poor. Alot of single young mexican immigrants have a fairly large amount of money. Surely within the means to live comfortably and afford contraceptives. Therefore, I would say that their "cultural influences / religion" leads to "large families" which leads to "poverty".
Also, I'd like to add that many if not all illegal immigrants are taken advantage of, particularly by "farm public transportation" that transport workers from home to work for exorbitant fees in poor vehicles.
So :
Cultural Influences / Religion - > Large Families - > Poverty
I'd say that poverty is the end result, not the causality.
Of course there are exceptions to this, all typically depending on how much the head of the family makes. However, it's only a number of children that determines how poor they are. A single person working minimum wage full-time can live a pretty decent lifestyle, it's when you have dependants that it makes it difficult.
But, I do agree Rapier, it's not immigration. We can change the situation if we take new steps towards new assimilation policies to combat immigrants that aren't seperated from their native culture.
I'd like to refer everyone who is interested in the topic to Victor Davis Hanson's "Mexifornia". Arguably, it's not written very scientifically, but he knows from experience exactly what illegal immigrants deal with.
This is nativism rearing its ugly head again.
Look, immigration isn't America's problem. Immigrants have made up America. They made it strong, they made it what it is now. Who are you to say that we're going to be a weaker nation because immigrants want to come to this nation?
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When will people start to realize were not the same country we were 200, 100, or even 50 years ago?
This latest wave of immigration <i>is</i> different from previous ones.
It is much larger and virtually uncontrolled. If we wanted to stop immigration from Europe we easily could, simply don't let anyone off the boat.
Its not that immigration is occurring that is the problem, it’s the fact that it’s a massive uncontrollable, undocumented swarm of people that is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1/7 of our nation. That's great. That really is. Guess who's also 1/7 of our nation? Blacks. Yeah, blacks. So I guess we're being taken over by Africans, right? Our nation's going to go down the ****ter? Is that what you seriously think?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Hispanics will overtake blacks as the largest minority in this country in the not to distant future...and we all know how well the two tend to get along in a city setting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The time before WWI had the greatest, largest period of immigration we've ever seen. And of course, after, we shut down the floodgates and look what good that did. Nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So they swam over?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What is the problem with a large Hispanic population in the States<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll tell you what the problem is. You love to talk so much about how previous immigrants were assimilated into the middle class, well what happens when there are more immigrants then this precarious system can support?
This isn't 1920's America anymore, you can't step off the boat with nothing by your cloths and a crisp 1$ bill and build yourself up to be a millionaire.
These people are going to get locked into a poverty cycle like none this country has ever seen before.
People need good jobs to work their way up and where do you think these millions of good jobs are going to come from for millions of illegal citizens?
Let’s move onto a different point now.
It's an obvious fact that all the immigrants from Europe had an easier time blending into society because their cultures, customs, and skin color were virtually the same or hailed from the same European roots.
The Hispanics have their own Meso-American culture which is very different from our own, if you don't believe me do some research.
Now no one here has confronted the fact that we are a much more liberal society today then we were before, which means we are forced to be much more accommodating to these newcomers. So accommodating in fact that we are actually hindering their ability to adapt to our society and culture.
Why love America when it's so fashionable to hate America? Why speak English when everything is written in Spanish and American children learn Spanish for you? Why pay taxes when you can live here illegally? Why get a job when the government hands out free money? Why buy a home in America when you can cross the border everyday like it was an open road?
What were headed for is clash of cultures, and our government isn’t on our side.
We are now more than ever.
Look, here's the thing, you know nothing of American society. You want me to hurl some facts and figures at you? Twelve percent of our nation lives under the poverty line. Another ten live right above it. Our economy is gradually separating into two tiers. Unskilled and skilled labor. From the 1980s and up, all real gains have gone to the top 20% of American society. You say that the immigrants are locked up in a cycle of poverty, 80% of this society is virtually stagnant.
Oh, and they aren't all Mexicans, let me tell you that.
And if you say that an Eastern European immigrant who came to this country had similar culture and beliefs, outside of a Christian faith (where Prots and Catholics still hated each other's guts) they had no real common ground.
This is the same America it was one hundred years ago. And if the Hispanic populations want to keep speaking Spanish, they'll keep staying below, hovering around poverty. Besides, having to cater to Spanish peoples creates new industries. You can get a job much easier if you speak two languages than just one. Not to mention that you have a new market to sell goods to.
Immigration never hurts a country in the long run. Why? Humans are capital. More capital -> stronger nation.
We are now more than ever.
Look, here's the thing, you know nothing of American society. You want me to hurl some facts and figures at you? Twelve percent of our nation lives under the poverty line. Another ten live right above it. Our economy is gradually separating into two tiers. Unskilled and skilled labor. From the 1980s and up, all real gains have gone to the top 20% of American society. You say that the immigrants are locked up in a cycle of poverty, 80% of this society is virtually stagnant.
Oh, and they aren't all Mexicans, let me tell you that.
And if you say that an Eastern European immigrant who came to this country had similar culture and beliefs, outside of a Christian faith (where Prots and Catholics still hated each other's guts) they had no real common ground.
This is the same America it was one hundred years ago. And if the Hispanic populations want to keep speaking Spanish, they'll keep staying below, hovering around poverty. Besides, having to cater to Spanish peoples creates new industries. You can get a job much easier if you speak two languages than just one. Not to mention that you have a new market to sell goods to.
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Do you even read what you type?
If 80% of society is stagnant, why in gods name would adding more people below the poverty line to the mix be a good thing?
We're not a freaking nation of industry anymore, were <i>exporting</i> those jobs as I type.
You keep going on about new industries and new opportunities, what are these new opportunities for an illegal immigrant in America to build himself up? Really me and the other 80% of the nation would apparently love to know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Immigration never hurts a country in the long run. Why? Humans are capital. More capital -> stronger nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh tell that to Africa.
Maybe if we weren't a Democratic country this would be a good thing as we could take our new "capital" and use it how ever we pleased. Fortunately and unfortunately were not China.
And quit insulting my knowledge of American History by reading out of your god damn high-school text book. If you think every wave of immigration is a perfect cookie cutter copy of the last your the one who is being ignorant. More then ignorant if you fail to acknowledge the difference between past and present.
It's good to see that some people are sick and tired of this crap and are taking serious note-worthy action.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Realistically, we’re looking at 10,000-plus volunteers being deployed Oct. 1st on the southern and northern borders,” said Chris Simcox, a chief organizer for the Arizona Minuteman Project and founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, Inc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder what it will take for the government to realize how sick Americans are of our open borders and how willing many are to take action.
We're not a freaking nation of industry anymore, were <i>exporting</i> those jobs as I type.
You keep going on about new industries and new opportunities, what are these new opportunities for an illegal immigrant in America to build himself up? Really me and the other 80% of the nation would apparently love to know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Immigration never hurts a country in the long run. Why? Humans are capital. More capital -> stronger nation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh tell that to Africa.
Maybe if we weren't a Democratic country this would be a good thing as we could take our new "capital" and use it how ever we pleased. Fortunately and unfortunately were not China. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree that an influx low income families can overwhelm a country's support infrastructure, I don't think this is the right way to look at it. There are not a limited supply of jobs in the country that everyone is simply competing for. People create jobs. In fact, though I don't have the statistics on hand, entrepreneurship is responsible for more of the job creation in this country than any other factor by a large margin.
There seems to be an assumption in your post that these immigrants are inherently in a <i>class</i> of impoverished people.
I think we are a lot better off as a country if we view new immigrants not as a burden to be supported, but as an influx of new ideas and opportunity.
Well here’s another way to look at.
America is supposed to be a Democracy, the will of the people is supposed to govern the country through elected officials, correct?
Every poll I have ever seen on the issue of immigration shows that Americans want stricter enforcement of the laws that are already in place. Not by a small margin ether.
No matter how you feel about the issue personally, what right does the government have to ignore the will of the majority?
Perhaps 10,000 citizens patrolling our borders well wake them up.
Well here’s another way to look at.
America is supposed to be a Democracy, the will of the people is supposed to govern the country through elected officials, correct?
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Its a representative democracy. We elect people to make decisions so we don't have to. The government isn't under any obligation to recognize the will of the people, in fact it was designed such that the effect of popular opinion would be limited.
Besides, popular support isn't an argument for the rightness or wrongness of an action anyways. It's just an appeal to authority.
I don't personally disagree with heavier enforcement of immigration legislation, but I would also prefer that immigration be made as simple as possible. i.e., if you aren't a felon in your own country, come on over.
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It was also designed so that if the federal government became too oppressive the citizens could stage a revolution...Thomas Jefferson is most assuredly keeping this plant on its axis.
If the people we elect don’t' do what we want we can also not reelect them, we have more sway over politicians then we realize, most Americans are just to lazy or uninformed to create a stir very often.
Ether way the government should be forced into some sort of action if the Minutemen make good on their promise. As much as I admire their efforts this thing is like a drag net for crazies, and it’s only a matter of time before some “poor” immigrant gets shot and the media latches onto the story like a leech. That could set this worthwhile movement back years.
Please remember that while now, almost all European descent is bunched into one ethnic group (caucasian / white), then, it wasn't. Please don't assume that they had an easier time because many didn't. They were persecuted and discriminated for their religious beliefs, and so on. Really, it was no different than today. I don't see it as an "obvious fact" because unfortunately, you're wrong if you believe that they "mixed in without problems".
Also, keep in mind, that asian immigrants, indian immigrants and so on easily assimilate into our culture despite their color and foreign cultures. Remember : Distance to homeland is what really matters. Otherwise, Indian, etc, foreign cultures wouldn't assimilate. It's not their skin color or necessarily cultures or customs. People who are seperated from their home assimilate because they have no other option. Mexican immigrants don't have to, because they're so close to home.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every poll I have ever seen on the issue of immigration shows that Americans want stricter enforcement of the laws that are already in place. Not by a small margin ether.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't read too much into polls. "Stricter" could mean any degree of extra enforcement. Please use polls carefully. There's not alot of options for people to choose, and alot of the time, they oversimplify complex questions. "Stricter" could mean anything from a adding more fences to deploying tanks and boots on the border.
Also, please don't get too offtopic, I know it happens easily. But, while there is much to be said about outsourcing of jobs in industry and the structure of our government, let's not get too hung up on it. I'd like the conversation to remain focused on hispanic population booms rather than condescendingly telling eachother what type of particular government we have.
You'll notice it’s much harder, if not impossible, for people with drastically different cultural and ethnic backgrounds to form into a unified group. Take the Blacks for example.
I highly doubt that Caucasians and Hispanics can from into one unified ethnic group, and even if they could I'm not sure I would want the ensuing sodomization of both cultures.
What?
While I don't think people should identify by and with their ethnic group primarily, there are still plenty of cultural differences among people of different european descents to this day. Cultural unity isn't necessary. Eliminating the racial tensions is sufficient.
And its only taken the entire span of our countries existence for us to come this far in that respect.
What I mean by ethnic unity is people of similar cultural background. People with similar customs and beliefs.
I don't have a problem with anyone because of their ethnicity, if that what your thinking, I believe that all people are created equal.
What I have a problem with is the wanton disregard for American laws pertaining to the border and how people refuse to acknowledge the way that such a massive influx of immigrants can be detrimental to our society.
My problem is not with the immigrants personally, in fact much of the blame lies with the American and Mexican governments.
What I mean by ethnic unity is people of similar cultural background. People with similar customs and beliefs.
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Speaking from experience, all it takes is one generation of genuine integration. The kids grow up with people around them, and without deliberate parental intervention, immediately the cultures cohere.
Yes, but most Hispanic children don't grow up living in the model American suburb now do they?
Like previous immigrants they bunch together in their own communities out of convenience and usually because of the cheaper housing.
The real driving factor for cultural assimilation is the <i>need</i> to assimilate. As I've been elaborating on this entire topic to which no one has replied, America is catering to this latest wave of immigration like has never been done before. That’s one of the many difference I've been talking about.
We're caught in this mindset that we should change for them, and all this does is weaken their drive to assimilate into our culture. Really it’s hurting them in the long run.
Yes but did it ever occur to you that at some point in time people might become satisfied with the status quo and not <i>want</i> another major cultural upheaval?
I don’t' see what’s wrong with drawing a line in the sand at some point.
Yes but did it ever occur to you that at some point in time people might become satisfied with the status quo and not <i>want</i> another major cultural upheaval?
I don’t' see what’s wrong with drawing a line in the sand at some point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please clarify what you mean. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Cultural upheaval through immigration ? Government fiat?
As long as people live near eachother there will be intermingling of culture and intermarriage.
I don’t' see what’s wrong with drawing a line in the sand at some point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm hearing you correctly, you are effectively saying that you don't want people coming into this country because you don't want their culture influencing ours. That seems pretty friggin backward to me.
Am I reading you right?