<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Awww.. soap, you know I love you, don't just vanish from that thread. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Even if you have no input on it, you could at least read it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey, I said that I refused to discuss the details of Christian Faith, and I hold to it for this forum. However, that doesnt mean I will vanish, It simply means that is a subject I wont talk about, and since when was this thread about the details of Christian faith?
<!--QuoteBegin-pieceofsoap+Jun 1 2005, 03:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pieceofsoap @ Jun 1 2005, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing. Its next to unheard of that someone is raised entirely upon religious morality, and by the same token, its next to unheard of that someone is raised with no religious influence. (Even if you are not raised religiously, you still have the influence of the residual religious influence of your ancestry, and societal influences) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a moot point as I've already pointed this out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you've missed the entire point.
Re-read what I wrote. You see, you have the bible which says "Thou shall not kill" and have a bunch of people running around, killing people because they think that God has told them too or more appropriately, God never did, a group of highly corrupt people did - oops THERE IS THE ENTIRE POINT YOU MISSED.
Society and the political climate at the time COMPLETE over rode the biblical 'morals'. Indicating that these morals extend only so far as they have a society around them that actually directly supports it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Society and the political climate at the time COMPLETE over rode the biblical 'morals'. Indicating that these morals extend only so far as they have a society around them that actually directly supports it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait a minute. You're telling me that a bigoted and intolerant society, ripe with Racism and class-struggles, overrode biblical morality to include things like Galatians 3:28? (There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.)
This is the one of the very things that Christians were persecuted for and yet it, along with others like it, are taught as biblical morals. How can you say it was the culture that caused this to be written?
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jun 1 2005, 04:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jun 1 2005, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wait a minute. You're telling me that a bigoted and intolerant society, ripe with Racism and class-struggles, overrode biblical morality to include things like Galatians 3:28? (There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? This is why it was sooooooooo effective when the Christians butchered Jews not just once, but <i>several</i> times throughout history right? Oh wait, I forget, that is because your point is irrelevant to my argument what-so-ever.
Again, society at the time dictates very heavily upon an individuals morality and I've gone through several examples of this through history. I could pull out the most detailed example I know, which of course is Christian/Catholic families under the NAZI regime, but I really hate bringing it up because:
A) It just demonstrates to me how worthless human beings can be
B) How people who supposedly believe in a set of morals such as the bible can completely disregard said morals completely over pure hatred.
To answer your point more directly: It is worthless to bring up random passages that supposedly demonstrate bible 'morality' when my entire point is that later on, these are completely disregarded dictated heavily by the society at the time.
Again, you want to defend the bible as a source of morality, <i>explain why Christians with full access to said biblical 'morality' massacred Jews and then raped, enslaved and butchered Muslim women AND children</i>.
Morality from the bible goes NOWHERE without a society to support it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the one of the very things that Christians were persecuted for and yet it, along with others like it, are taught as biblical morals. How can you say it was the culture that caused this to be written?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the Christians sure turned that around on the Jews when they butchered them eh?
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you've missed the entire point.
Re-read what I wrote. You see, you have the bible which says "Thou shall not kill" and have a bunch of people running around, killing people because they think that God has told them too or more appropriately, God never did, a group of highly corrupt people did - oops THERE IS THE ENTIRE POINT YOU MISSED.
Society and the political climate at the time COMPLETE over rode the biblical 'morals'. Indicating that these morals extend only so far as they have a society around them that actually directly supports it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I havent missed the point.
The truth is, we have both the "Thou Shalt not Kill" and the "God Hates those guys" arising from religion, (Christianity doesnt restrict itself to the Bible, does it?) No matter to what degree the higher powers in the church were corrupt, the end result was the same: (You might want to re-read my post too) You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.
The point I made earlier, and make again, is that Even if the Kings and Pope are politically motivated, The troops are the ones using religion instead of their heads, and thus, losing their heads.
/EDIT <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (pieceofsoap @ Jun 1 2005, 03:45 PM) Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing. Its next to unheard of that someone is raised entirely upon religious morality, and by the same token, its next to unheard of that someone is raised with no religious influence. (Even if you are not raised religiously, you still have the influence of the residual religious influence of your ancestry, and societal influences)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a moot point as I've already pointed this out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that too is a moot point, since I pointed it out first, so nyah.
/Edit2 Oh, you are referring to the societal influence bit? Okay, so we agree on that. No need to get snippy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 06:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 06:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To get a better understanding of the Bible I attend the church of my choice. I find that more than sufficient to study God's word. If that's your version of a cop out ... HA! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so lets go over what qualifications your minster has to teach then. Oh wait.. not all churches require a formal education, especially of the angelican and protestant sects.
<!--QuoteBegin-http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos061.htm (United States Department of Labor website)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos061.htm (United States Department of Labor website))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Educational requirements for entry into the Protestant ministry vary greatly. Many denominations require, or at least strongly prefer, a bachelor’s degree followed by study at a theological seminary. However, some denominations have no formal educational requirements, and others ordain persons having various types of training from Bible colleges or liberal arts colleges. Many denominations now allow women to be ordained, but some do not. Persons considering a career in the ministry should first verify the ministerial requirements with their particular denomination. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have noticed in my travels to a few places, that majority of ministers start as people who are "born again" and start to "spread the word". Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies. Unless they head huge churches in say NYC, Chicago, LA, San Fran, and other large cities.
Without any formal theological studying on anything NOT christian, your minister has no background, and I'm very positive, he can not speak Latin, which used to be a requirement, since most of the bibles at the time protestants came around were in Latin. Which is "fairly" close to the orginal greek it was written in, but not 100% accurate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So now you resort to attacking my minister? GG Cydane, gg ... lol.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+May 31 2005, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ May 31 2005, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not faith that will instill values or discipline - it's the parents. You can bring up a decent kid regardless of gods. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
Personally my dad believes god is a load of BS. My mother has small believes in him and tries.
Me personally have a mixed feeling. At 15 I still dont know about God and jesus... or any other faith for that matter..
For all we know God could be called Zamma? or Bob?!
Well anyway..
Its the parents that guide a child to who he is not his faith or religion. A child can have no faith but still be a nicer person then any one with religion.
________________
If you think Religion is good?
WHY THE F*** DO WE FIGHT OVER IT? GG RELIGION!?
P.s. to depot.. I know latin <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Zamma+Jun 1 2005, 05:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zamma @ Jun 1 2005, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+May 31 2005, 09:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ May 31 2005, 09:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not faith that will instill values or discipline - it's the parents. You can bring up a decent kid regardless of gods. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thirded, we have plenty of living examples (myself included) on these boards, it is clear that religion is not necessary in bringing up a good kid, but it can help, if used properly.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 07:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, you did say you attend the church of your choice and I pointed out that churches are not the best place to "study" the bible.
Most ministers do not have the background to answer your in-depth questions, which I can attest to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My mininster is qualified, as are most. I seriously doubt you are remotely qualified to judge if <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that majority of ministers start as people who are "born again" and start to "spread the word". Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How many of these ministers in your extensive traveling did you personally interview and scrutinize? What qualifications do you have to judge whether a minister is qualified? Please tell us ...
<b>And more importantly, why do you insist on repeatedly going off on tangents?</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I havent missed the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, you pretty much have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, they didn't die in the name of God ultimately, they died for rich European lords who wanted to expand their power base.
But again, you bring up an irrelevant point and despite claiming to the contrary, have AGAIN missed the entire point of the argument. Bravo.
I'm really starting to give up on this forum, I really am. I'm not stating my position again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But that too is a moot point, since I pointed it out first, so nyah.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first post well before this point was made which is still utterly irrelevant to my argument:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. <b>It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?</b>
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 06:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But that too is a moot point, since I pointed it out first, so nyah.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first post well before this point was made which is still utterly irrelevant to my argument:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. <b>It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?</b>
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, you just totally mangled the context of my post. I see you semi-edited your post, but there are still glaring issues. Like the text above. There is a reason this bit existed: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->/Edit2 Oh, you are referring to the societal influence bit? Okay, so we agree on that. No need to get snippy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought you were saying that <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> was a moot point, as you had already stated it, when it was a point that I had subtly made in my first post in this topic.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, they didn't die in the name of God ultimately, they died for rich European lords who wanted to expand their power base.
But again, you bring up an irrelevant point and despite claiming to the contrary, have AGAIN missed the entire point of the argument. Bravo. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, back to the topic at hand:
They didn't die in the name of god? They didnt believe that. Once again, I state that the rich European lords who wanted to expand their powerbase are IRRELEVANT to my argument.
It <b>doesnt matter</b> whether or not the higher ranks of society are politically motivated or not, what is happening, is that the people going off to fight the war, are overriding their better judgement, in favor of a religious influence, administered through societal means.
They didnt charge into battle yelling "More Gold for King Goostapoopalus!" They believed they were on a mission from god. Yes, the church abused its influence, but the fact remains that the <b>soldiers</b> were religiously motivated.
{{edited out} See final post.}} {I am leaving most of this intact, just in case anyone cares to question me about what qualifications I have, which may come up sometime soon.}
My qualifications, I'm sure you will say it isn't possible, however, I do hold over tweleve years of theological studies under my mental belt, including a bachelors in theological studies. Which includes almost all current and dead religions, including but not limited to; Chrisanity, Hinduism, Buddism, Janism, Islamic, Druidic, Pagan, Wiccan(real not that stupid love spell stuff), Satanist(Which is not devil worship).
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 07:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How many of these ministers in your extensive traveling did you personally interview and scrutinize? What qualifications do you have to judge whether a minister is qualified? Please tell us ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll start by saying I do not appreciate personal attacks depot.
Secondly, I have interviewed, and this is myself personally, over twenty-five different pastors from across the united states, england, germany, france, egypt, and one monk in japan.
I don't ever scrutinize anyone, I asked them in-depth questions about their beliefs based only upon their faith. Nothing more, I would not be so mean as to presume their beliefs are false, for if they wish to believe in something higher then themselves, I am more then ameanable to let live. As long as said religion doesn't detract from the rights of anyone, you can believe what you wish, I have stated this before, and I am growing tired of repeating it.
My qualifications, I'm sure you will say it isn't possible, however, I do hold over tweleve years of theological studies under my mental belt, including bachelors in theological studies. Which includes almost all current and dead religions, including but not limited to; Chrisanity, Hinduism, Buddism, Janism, Islamic, Druidic, Pagan, Wiccan(real not that stupid love spell stuff), Satanist(Which is not devil worship).
I am quite confident that most ministers do not have the same background, other then a bachelors in theology for their specific religion, and I have found this to be quite true. In fact, most don't even have a degree dealing with theology, it is more then likely psychology, if even that. Some have a sociology degree, yet even that doesn't compare to actually studying their said religion.
<b>And more importantly, why do you insist on repeatedly going off on tangents?</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not as much of a tangent as you believe, for I am refuting the fact you think your church is a good place to "study" gods word, when in essence you are not studying anything, you are being told what it says. I don't recall any church service, christian or not, that people actually discuss said principles in said holy book. Unless it was at some other time other then usual mass times. (Bible study groups, which do happen.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you've talked to 25 ministers and this equates to "majority of ministers"?
If you failed to question even these 25 in depth, then how can you say <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am quite confident that most ministers do not have the same background, other then a bachelors in theology for their specific religion, and I have found this to be quite true. In fact, most don't even have a degree dealing with theology, it is more then likely psychology, if even that. Some have a sociology degree, yet even that doesn't compare to actually studying their said religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, if you failed to scrutinize the backgrounds of those you interviewed how on earth would you know that? And how does 25 equate to "most"? <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't recall any church service, christian or not, that people actually discuss said principles in said holy book. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ever heard of Sunday School, duh? That's exactly what they do.
This has gotten SOO far off topic its scary...just as I warned on page 1, the question of whether growing up with religion is good or bad has devolved into whether growing up with "MY" religion is good or bad...and as near as I can tell, every single person replying has stated that growing up with their own current religion is <i>obviously</i> the best choice.
(Anyone want to prove me wrong by voting for something other than what they believe in?)
Debating whether Christian Morals are good in and of themselves is silly, since obviously there are only 2 cases here:
Case A) Christianity is false. Christian Morals are good only so far as they support the morals of the majority of the populace. They cannot possibly be "better" than the general morality, since even a single discrepancy relegates them to the status of "not quite as good".
Case B) Chrisitianity is true. True Christian Morals are therefore mandated by God, and are inherently superior to the majority mindset. Morals that look wrong are either a case of us misinterpreting the bible, or us not being very good at determining right and wrong.
Note that whether Christian Morals are beneficial becomes 100% dependant on the truth of Christianity, which is beyond the scope of this thread. So quit arguing over it!
Back to the REAL on-topic-- I claim that it is better for a child to grow up in a religious than non-religious household, because that teaches them that there is something greater than themselves out there, that there is a greater good that can be more important than their own personal benefit. While this concept isn't impossible to impart to an atheist, there really isn't much logic behind it without a God.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 1 2005, 08:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 1 2005, 08:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow.. totally missing the point once more.
Sunday school is not a discussion, in case you haven't noticed it is mostly "taught" to children, who are not very good a thinking for themselves, so they are presented with their teachers view of what the bible is and says.
The only "sunday school" where you are actually allowed to question the teachers, and again this is from my experience, as I was forced to go since I was quite young. Is when you are supposed to be "confirmed" as said sect of said religion, bar mitzvah for jewish boys, there are similar types rites of passage for each individual religion, but if you question the authority too throughly they will not want you in their sect/division. I can also attest to this personally.
Asking them their background in addition to follow up questions and scrutinizing someone are quite different aspects Depot. Examples of questions I asked each minister when I did visit, of course some questions do not apply to others of different religions.
1. How did you choose to become a minister/monk for/of [insert religion/sec] 2. Why? 3. What educational background do you have reguarding theology? 4. (If they don't have much of an educational background in theology) What makes you qualified to be a minister of [insert religion/sect].
Those are just four little questions where you can get simple one word answers from some, (because, I like it) or one ends up getting long winded life stories of how some action influenced their decision, and has thusly affected their entire life, sometimes not even for the better. I can think of one baptist minster who almost regretts some of what she has said.
What you are failing to understand depot, is that even if your minister is "qualified" which I do doubt quite seriously, you are not learning anything while in mass, which you attend.
Again that is why I stated your knowledge of the bible consists of limited sunday school teachings taught when you were younger. Another reason you ignored the Holy Codified Laws, I presented in Deuteromy, and Levictius.
Also while twenty-five may not seem like a large number, do you realize that when you take small samples of a populace, you can get a general idea of what the majority consists of, or are you oblivious to what the independent studies do, when they wish to find out peoples opinion on various topics. They don't ask everyone, they take a small sample and apply it to the majority which ever side comes out on top.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sunday school is not a discussion, in case you haven't noticed it is mostly "taught" to children, who are not very good a thinking for themselves, so they are presented with their teachers view of what the bible is and says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely positively false. As I've already stated sunday school (all the ones I have gone to, as an adult) <u>discuss</u> the Bible. Not listen to what the teacher is presenting, but actually discuss the context.
Sorry, your interviewing a mere 25 ministers still is no where near scientific enough for you to be posting results on and hardly qualifies as "most ministers".
Hard as it may be for you, try,<b> hard</b>, to not derail this thread any more than what you have.
Blammo, you are confused about how Christianity works. It's not that those who believe in God are somehow better than those who don't, and therefore can get into heaven--the basic idea is that <i>none of us</i> is as good as God, and being as good as God is the standard. It only takes one sin for you to fall short of that standard, and not be able to reach heaven.
So since <i>no one</i> can reach heaven on their own, God offered us a loophole...rather than having to pay the price to get there on our own, he offered to pay the price for us, and let us in for free. He <i>wants</i> you to be there...yes, even you who don't believe in him. The only thing you have to do is accept his free offer. But if you don't believe he exists, it's rather difficult to accept his free offer.
(Note--this is not intended to be an argument for Chrisitianity's truth, merely to clear up a fairly important misunderstanding) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, man 2 pages in one night already *sighs and reads*
Lets get back to me not getting in heaven.
If God wants me to be there why won't he make any effort for me getting there. I have no reason to believe in God, if he made an clear effort which he can because he's God I would start believing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> (Sorry it took me 4 pages to get back to you Blammo, but this topic has positively exploded today.)
I would argue that he <i>has</i> made an effort. Are you waiting for God to personally design a miracle just for you to announce his presence? I guess you're just going to dismiss all the people you meet who will tell you they've met God, and try to help you to meet him as well. Because they don't count as God trying to find you, right? It has to be supernatural to count, of course. Oh, and just being supernatural isn't good enough--a minor miracle could always be explained away by some freak occurrance of physics, right? Basically you're waiting for God to walk into your room and say, "Hello Blammo. I'm God."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course I can accept his free offer, he just never made the offer yet. Only several religions have been making offers but how will I know if they're right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, so you freely contradict your first point with that second one. So how do you know which of the many offers is real? Well, thats a little beyond the scope of this discussion--I'm not trying to convince you to become a Christian, just to explain to you how we think. But there is evidence around--in science, in philosophy, in you own heart even. Most of the offers don't really make much sense when you examine them closely--so examine them all closely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And why not give me the offer when I'm dead? That's easy enough, everyone has to face judgement or something right? well make me my offer then, how can I refuse if the evidence is crystal clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, lets look at that possibility--I suppose God could create a world where everyone could do whatever they wanted on earth, and then after they died then God would ask them all, "do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?" Then all of them would say, "Heaven", and you'd get to share Heaven with Mother Teresa on your left and Hitler on your right, and no distinction between any of them.
Then again--maybe he does exactly that. As I understand it, the question isn't, "Do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?" It's, "Do you want to come live with me or not?" The people who have spent 60 years of their lives running away from God aren't likely to suddenly say they want to come live with him now. It just so happens that once they decide not to live with God, Hell is the only home left over.
In sum---I don't understand precisely what happens after you die. We don't exactly have many reports from people who've died and then come back to explain it. But suffice it to say that if everyone escapes Judgement, then the entire concept of Judgement is meaningless. So there will necessarily be some who are judged and found guilty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't start about the bible being evidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again I'm better than God himself because I would make an effort and sacrifices for other people to help them and make them happy. God is not doing this for me
You've still not argued why I'm not a better person than god so my point still stands (of course I'm not a better person but explain why).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make yourself out to be a better person only by claiming that God is not doing certain things---which he in fact is doing. He does make an effort to make other people happy. He makes huge sacrifices for us (giving up your only child anyone?). God is doing all of this...and he is doing this even for <i>you!</i> He still wants to meet you. Wouldn't you like to meet him?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've said it yourself this is just an argument how christianity works not logic which explains why I'm wrong... Than why is Depot treating it as such? This is very typical I've seen it happen so many times before. If a person gives four arguments and only one is countered the post is seen as countered and not of value. So I'm still waiting for someone who can explain with plain logic why I'm wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Done--via explaining that your previous points were based on faulty knowledge of Christian Doctrine. I suppose you could try again with your new knowledge--but the discussion has kind of moved beyond that point anyway. So don't bother.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So all in all: God gives me a free offer for eternal happieness and redemption of all my sins. The problem is I have no idea if I'm being conned or not. He doesn't make an effort at all to give me assurance. Also he doesn't bother explaining the whole thing when my time on earth is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you don't know if you're being conned or not. That gives you two choices...you could go with the cliche, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is", and just <i>assume</i> its a con. Or you could try to actually find out if this good deal is for real, since its a pretty good deal if it is real. And God gives you plenty of assurance once you take the deal--the closer you are to God, the easier it is to feel his presence. When you are far away, it is obviously harder to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 1 2005, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 1 2005, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry, your interviewing a mere 25 ministers still is no where near scientific enough for you to be posting results on and hardly qualifies as "most ministers". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's my statistical sample:
Of the many ministers I have met, I have asked about the educational background of only two. Both of those two have Bachelors degrees from a public college, followed by a doctorate degree from a Seminary college, and have studied both Greek and Hebrew so that they don't have to rely on English translations for tough theological questions.
There! Statistically, 100% of ministers know Greek and Hebrew, right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (Margin of Error: +/- 75%)
... {off topic rant} Why do I even bother talking to people who are so set in their ways they can't even have a rational dicussion without resorting to personal attacks.
I am going to comment one more time, then I am done, for this is a waste of my time, and I would rather engage legionaired in actual discussion, rather then have some ignorant person attempt to refute something they can not.
I can understand why ageri is losing his patience. No matter how much you attempt to even show someon partial truth they ignore it.
The fact you can say your bible study is a "sunday school" implies it doesn't have the same meaning, I think you really need to let go of your crutch and start thinking for yourself for once.
I'm sorry to say that you don't think twenty-five minister isn't enough, but do you realize that even if I were to approach more, how many would accept? Five, ten?
None?
I have attempted to contact larger congregations on some questions, I have yet to recieve answers, (see one of the threads about the bible) if you don't realize by now, most ministers are so stuck up in their own self-righteousness, much like yourself depot, that they fail to even take the time to answer non-invasive questions.
Finally, that I am almost done with my little rant, I would like to say you have honestly lost all respect in my eyes. For someone who is supposed to have all this "worldy" experience, you have proved to me that someone who has lived all of fifty-seven years, is really no more then a child in mentality on many of the issues that surround such belief systems.
I'd like to apologize to everyone on here for dealing with me, in fact I am going to edit out all of my posts due to the sheer ignorance a few people decided to show and shall leave in what is relevant to the topic at hand. I would suggest a couple people do the same. Sidnely was right.. it did degrade more then even I thought it would and I didn't help anything. {end off topic rant}
Cydane, you are obviously not qualified nor have the authority to dictate what any given faith calls their Sunday School. Nor are you qualified or have the authority to dictate what they <i>discuss</i> in these classes. You claimed churches don't <i>discuss</i> the Bible and I showed you where you're incorrect.
Therefore, if churches do discuss the Bible and parishoners are able to ask and learn about scripture, this would be a positive influence on their morals, which is what this thread is about. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jun 1 2005+ 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jun 1 2005 @ 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, that I am almost done with my little rant, I would like to say you have honestly lost all respect in my eyes. For someone who is supposed to have all this "worldy" experience, you have proved to me that someone who has lived all of fifty-seven years, is really no more then a child in mentality on many of the issues that surround such belief systems. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cydane, some time ago when you made the mistake of insisting a Lexus LS400 was the same as a Toyota Avalon I lost all respect for you and your oppinions, so I guess we're on a level playing field now. At least I don't troll or intentionally derail threads. And btw, I don't blame you for editing out most of your posts, but the bad news is, most of them have been quoted so the evidence remains.
@Aegeri: That's what I get for reading through the last page of a thread too fast. I thought you were implying that the bible was changed by the society it was written in, not only that people have neglected it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jun 1 2005, 10:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jun 1 2005, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Aegeri: That's what I get for reading through the last page of a thread too fast. I thought you were implying that the bible was changed by the society it was written in, not only that people have neglected it.
My bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh certainly not! The bible has remained the same, just that corrupt individuals have mis-translated it or (when illiteracy was very high for example) deliberately twisted the meaning of the words to their own end. This doesn't change the fact that the bible is more or less the same message.
Incidently, to clarify something to anyone curious: I'm not, in any way implying that the bible *isn't* a good source of morality and other ideals. I am Christian after all so it would be rather odd for me to think such a thing anyway. What I AM saying (just to make it 100% clear) is that people distort or plainly ignore the bible depending on many societal issues simply out of human nature. Now this isn't an absolute; there were many Christians who didn't do things like support the NAZI regime or similar, just as there are many Muslims who do not support the extreme fundamentalists today (for a second analogy). All I mean to imply is that a great majority of people are affected largely by the society they find themselves in. One that has a deep seated hatred of one particular people, is going to probably pass that on to their Children and hence despite morality they pick up from a religion, is still likely to bear that hatred (or worse, compromise it into their religious beliefs, which is even worse).
<!--QuoteBegin-Aegeri+Jun 1 2005, 10:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Jun 1 2005, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Jun 1 2005, 10:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Jun 1 2005, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> @Aegeri: That's what I get for reading through the last page of a thread too fast. I thought you were implying that the bible was changed by the society it was written in, not only that people have neglected it.
My bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh certainly not! The bible has remained the same, just that corrupt individuals have mis-translated it or (when illiteracy was very high for example) deliberately twisted the meaning of the words to their own end. This doesn't change the fact that the bible is more or less the same message.
Incidently, to clarify something to anyone curious: I'm not, in any way implying that the bible *isn't* a good source of morality and other ideals. I am Christian after all so it would be rather odd for me to think such a thing anyway. What I AM saying (just to make it 100% clear) is that people distort or plainly ignore the bible depending on many societal issues simply out of human nature. Now this isn't an absolute; there were many Christians who didn't do things like support the NAZI regime or similar, just as there are many Muslims who do not support the extreme fundamentalists today (for a second analogy). All I mean to imply is that a great majority of people are affected largely by the society they find themselves in. One that has a deep seated hatred of one particular people, is going to probably pass that on to their Children and hence despite morality they pick up from a religion, is still likely to bear that hatred (or worse, compromise it into their religious beliefs, which is even worse). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well actually...
Comments
Even if you have no input on it, you could at least read it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I said that I refused to discuss the details of Christian Faith, and I hold to it for this forum. However, that doesnt mean I will vanish, It simply means that is a subject I wont talk about, and since when was this thread about the details of Christian faith?
This is a moot point as I've already pointed this out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you've missed the entire point.
Re-read what I wrote. You see, you have the bible which says "Thou shall not kill" and have a bunch of people running around, killing people because they think that God has told them too or more appropriately, God never did, a group of highly corrupt people did - oops THERE IS THE ENTIRE POINT YOU MISSED.
Society and the political climate at the time COMPLETE over rode the biblical 'morals'. Indicating that these morals extend only so far as they have a society around them that actually directly supports it.
Wait a minute. You're telling me that a bigoted and intolerant society, ripe with Racism and class-struggles, overrode biblical morality to include things like Galatians 3:28? (There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.)
This is the one of the very things that Christians were persecuted for and yet it, along with others like it, are taught as biblical morals. How can you say it was the culture that caused this to be written?
Really? This is why it was sooooooooo effective when the Christians butchered Jews not just once, but <i>several</i> times throughout history right? Oh wait, I forget, that is because your point is irrelevant to my argument what-so-ever.
Again, society at the time dictates very heavily upon an individuals morality and I've gone through several examples of this through history. I could pull out the most detailed example I know, which of course is Christian/Catholic families under the NAZI regime, but I really hate bringing it up because:
A) It just demonstrates to me how worthless human beings can be
B) How people who supposedly believe in a set of morals such as the bible can completely disregard said morals completely over pure hatred.
To answer your point more directly: It is worthless to bring up random passages that supposedly demonstrate bible 'morality' when my entire point is that later on, these are completely disregarded dictated heavily by the society at the time.
Again, you want to defend the bible as a source of morality, <i>explain why Christians with full access to said biblical 'morality' massacred Jews and then raped, enslaved and butchered Muslim women AND children</i>.
Morality from the bible goes NOWHERE without a society to support it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This is the one of the very things that Christians were persecuted for and yet it, along with others like it, are taught as biblical morals. How can you say it was the culture that caused this to be written?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the Christians sure turned that around on the Jews when they butchered them eh?
Now when you mention the Crusades, for the common person of the era, they are a clear depiction of my earlier points. (In the ranks of society that stand to directly benefit from the crusades you would get into political motivations) In the Crusades you had the clear case of "God hates the Moors, so its fine to kill them." Clearly a case of using religion to bypass ones better judgement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see you've missed the entire point.
Re-read what I wrote. You see, you have the bible which says "Thou shall not kill" and have a bunch of people running around, killing people because they think that God has told them too or more appropriately, God never did, a group of highly corrupt people did - oops THERE IS THE ENTIRE POINT YOU MISSED.
Society and the political climate at the time COMPLETE over rode the biblical 'morals'. Indicating that these morals extend only so far as they have a society around them that actually directly supports it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I havent missed the point.
The truth is, we have both the "Thou Shalt not Kill" and the "God Hates those guys" arising from religion, (Christianity doesnt restrict itself to the Bible, does it?) No matter to what degree the higher powers in the church were corrupt, the end result was the same: (You might want to re-read my post too) You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.
The point I made earlier, and make again, is that Even if the Kings and Pope are politically motivated, The troops are the ones using religion instead of their heads, and thus, losing their heads.
/EDIT
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (pieceofsoap @ Jun 1 2005, 03:45 PM)
Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing. Its next to unheard of that someone is raised entirely upon religious morality, and by the same token, its next to unheard of that someone is raised with no religious influence. (Even if you are not raised religiously, you still have the influence of the residual religious influence of your ancestry, and societal influences)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a moot point as I've already pointed this out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that too is a moot point, since I pointed it out first, so nyah.
/Edit2
Oh, you are referring to the societal influence bit? Okay, so we agree on that. No need to get snippy.
To get a better understanding of the Bible I attend the church of my choice. I find that more than sufficient to study God's word. If that's your version of a cop out ... HA!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, so lets go over what qualifications your minster has to teach then. Oh wait.. not all churches require a formal education, especially of the angelican and protestant sects.
<!--QuoteBegin-http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos061.htm (United States Department of Labor website)+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos061.htm (United States Department of Labor website))</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Educational requirements for entry into the Protestant ministry vary greatly. Many denominations require, or at least strongly prefer, a bachelor’s degree followed by study at a theological seminary. However, some denominations have no formal educational requirements, and others ordain persons having various types of training from Bible colleges or liberal arts colleges. Many denominations now allow women to be ordained, but some do not. Persons considering a career in the ministry should first verify the ministerial requirements with their particular denomination.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have noticed in my travels to a few places, that majority of ministers start as people who are "born again" and start to "spread the word". Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies. Unless they head huge churches in say NYC, Chicago, LA, San Fran, and other large cities.
Without any formal theological studying on anything NOT christian, your minister has no background, and I'm very positive, he can not speak Latin, which used to be a requirement, since most of the bibles at the time protestants came around were in Latin. Which is "fairly" close to the orginal greek it was written in, but not 100% accurate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now you resort to attacking my minister? GG Cydane, gg ... lol.
Agreed
Personally my dad believes god is a load of BS. My mother has small believes in him and tries.
Me personally have a mixed feeling. At 15 I still dont know about God and jesus... or any other faith for that matter..
For all we know God could be called Zamma? or Bob?!
Well anyway..
Its the parents that guide a child to who he is not his faith or religion. A child can have no faith but still be a nicer person then any one with religion.
________________
If you think Religion is good?
WHY THE F*** DO WE FIGHT OVER IT? GG RELIGION!?
P.s. to depot.. I know latin <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Agreed <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thirded, we have plenty of living examples (myself included) on these boards, it is clear that religion is not necessary in bringing up a good kid, but it can help, if used properly.
Most ministers do not have the background to answer your in-depth questions, which I can attest to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My mininster is qualified, as are most. I seriously doubt you are remotely qualified to judge if <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that majority of ministers start as people who are "born again" and start to "spread the word". Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many of these ministers in your extensive traveling did you personally interview and scrutinize? What qualifications do you have to judge whether a minister is qualified? Please tell us ...
<b>And more importantly, why do you insist on repeatedly going off on tangents?</b>
Yup, you pretty much have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, they didn't die in the name of God ultimately, they died for rich European lords who wanted to expand their power base.
But again, you bring up an irrelevant point and despite claiming to the contrary, have AGAIN missed the entire point of the argument. Bravo.
I'm really starting to give up on this forum, I really am. I'm not stating my position again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But that too is a moot point, since I pointed it out first, so nyah.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first post well before this point was made which is still utterly irrelevant to my argument:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. <b>It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?</b>
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first post well before this point was made which is still utterly irrelevant to my argument:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->religious families in the past have commited awful atrocities, because ultimately despite what a religious book says it doesn't MAKE people in any way more moral. <b>It's the society, individuals and people around them that ultimately dictate someones morals. If my parents are religious and teach me that all Americans are evil infidels and I should destroy them, is it the religion that is doing it or the inherent beliefs of my parents? In the same way, if my parents are atheist and teach me the same thing, is it their disbelief in God that makes them say that or the inherent beliefs of the parents?</b>
Religion can be useful as a source of morals, but if people don't bother following them then it's not any particular use. It has and probably will sadly continue, to fail at being the ultimate source of morality. My parents gave me my basic morality, irregardless of religion (which they left up to me incidently) and in addition to that so did the society around me. The society around me is going to do far more towards what I think than is my religion. Perfectly good Christians and Catholics supported heinous regimes of the past that did things like massacre Jews and more. In the same way that there are individuals who twist the Qu'ran and plow planes into innocent civilians and blow their own people to bits with explosive laden cars.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you just totally mangled the context of my post. I see you semi-edited your post, but there are still glaring issues. Like the text above. There is a reason this bit existed:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->/Edit2
Oh, you are referring to the societal influence bit? Okay, so we agree on that. No need to get snippy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought you were saying that <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once again, Id like to point out religions's effect on ones morality is not a case of all-or-nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> was a moot point, as you had already stated it, when it was a point that I had subtly made in my first post in this topic.
Yup, you pretty much have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You had the masses, choosing one tenet of their religion over another, forsaking their better judgement, went off to rape, pillage, and die in the name of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, they didn't die in the name of God ultimately, they died for rich European lords who wanted to expand their power base.
But again, you bring up an irrelevant point and despite claiming to the contrary, have AGAIN missed the entire point of the argument. Bravo. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, back to the topic at hand:
They didn't die in the name of god? They didnt believe that. Once again, I state that the rich European lords who wanted to expand their powerbase are IRRELEVANT to my argument.
It <b>doesnt matter</b> whether or not the higher ranks of society are politically motivated or not, what is happening, is that the people going off to fight the war, are overriding their better judgement, in favor of a religious influence, administered through societal means.
They didnt charge into battle yelling "More Gold for King Goostapoopalus!" They believed they were on a mission from god. Yes, the church abused its influence, but the fact remains that the <b>soldiers</b> were religiously motivated.
My qualifications, I'm sure you will say it isn't possible, however, I do hold over tweleve years of theological studies under my mental belt, including a bachelors in theological studies. Which includes almost all current and dead religions, including but not limited to; Chrisanity, Hinduism, Buddism, Janism, Islamic, Druidic, Pagan, Wiccan(real not that stupid love spell stuff), Satanist(Which is not devil worship).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll start by saying I do not appreciate personal attacks depot.
Secondly, I have interviewed, and this is myself personally, over twenty-five different pastors from across the united states, england, germany, france, egypt, and one monk in japan.
I don't ever scrutinize anyone, I asked them in-depth questions about their beliefs based only upon their faith. Nothing more, I would not be so mean as to presume their beliefs are false, for if they wish to believe in something higher then themselves, I am more then ameanable to let live. As long as said religion doesn't detract from the rights of anyone, you can believe what you wish, I have stated this before, and I am growing tired of repeating it.
My qualifications, I'm sure you will say it isn't possible, however, I do hold over tweleve years of theological studies under my mental belt, including bachelors in theological studies. Which includes almost all current and dead religions, including but not limited to; Chrisanity, Hinduism, Buddism, Janism, Islamic, Druidic, Pagan, Wiccan(real not that stupid love spell stuff), Satanist(Which is not devil worship).
I am quite confident that most ministers do not have the same background, other then a bachelors in theology for their specific religion, and I have found this to be quite true. In fact, most don't even have a degree dealing with theology, it is more then likely psychology, if even that. Some have a sociology degree, yet even that doesn't compare to actually studying their said religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-depot+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (depot)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>And more importantly, why do you insist on repeatedly going off on tangents?</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not as much of a tangent as you believe, for I am refuting the fact you think your church is a good place to "study" gods word, when in essence you are not studying anything, you are being told what it says. I don't recall any church service, christian or not, that people actually discuss said principles in said holy book. Unless it was at some other time other then usual mass times. (Bible study groups, which do happen.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you've talked to 25 ministers and this equates to "majority of ministers"?
If you failed to question even these 25 in depth, then how can you say
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet have no formal teaching/learning in any theological studies<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am quite confident that most ministers do not have the same background, other then a bachelors in theology for their specific religion, and I have found this to be quite true. In fact, most don't even have a degree dealing with theology, it is more then likely psychology, if even that. Some have a sociology degree, yet even that doesn't compare to actually studying their said religion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if you failed to scrutinize the backgrounds of those you interviewed how on earth would you know that? And how does 25 equate to "most"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't recall any church service, christian or not, that people actually discuss said principles in said holy book. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever heard of Sunday School, duh? That's exactly what they do.
(Anyone want to prove me wrong by voting for something other than what they believe in?)
Debating whether Christian Morals are good in and of themselves is silly, since obviously there are only 2 cases here:
Case A) Christianity is false. Christian Morals are good only so far as they support the morals of the majority of the populace. They cannot possibly be "better" than the general morality, since even a single discrepancy relegates them to the status of "not quite as good".
Case B) Chrisitianity is true. True Christian Morals are therefore mandated by God, and are inherently superior to the majority mindset. Morals that look wrong are either a case of us misinterpreting the bible, or us not being very good at determining right and wrong.
Note that whether Christian Morals are beneficial becomes 100% dependant on the truth of Christianity, which is beyond the scope of this thread. So quit arguing over it!
Back to the REAL on-topic--
I claim that it is better for a child to grow up in a religious than non-religious household, because that teaches them that there is something greater than themselves out there, that there is a greater good that can be more important than their own personal benefit. While this concept isn't impossible to impart to an atheist, there really isn't much logic behind it without a God.
Sunday school is not a discussion, in case you haven't noticed it is mostly "taught" to children, who are not very good a thinking for themselves, so they are presented with their teachers view of what the bible is and says.
The only "sunday school" where you are actually allowed to question the teachers, and again this is from my experience, as I was forced to go since I was quite young. Is when you are supposed to be "confirmed" as said sect of said religion, bar mitzvah for jewish boys, there are similar types rites of passage for each individual religion, but if you question the authority too throughly they will not want you in their sect/division. I can also attest to this personally.
Asking them their background in addition to follow up questions and scrutinizing someone are quite different aspects Depot. Examples of questions I asked each minister when I did visit, of course some questions do not apply to others of different religions.
1. How did you choose to become a minister/monk for/of [insert religion/sec]
2. Why?
3. What educational background do you have reguarding theology?
4. (If they don't have much of an educational background in theology) What makes you qualified to be a minister of [insert religion/sect].
Those are just four little questions where you can get simple one word answers from some, (because, I like it) or one ends up getting long winded life stories of how some action influenced their decision, and has thusly affected their entire life, sometimes not even for the better. I can think of one baptist minster who almost regretts some of what she has said.
What you are failing to understand depot, is that even if your minister is "qualified" which I do doubt quite seriously, you are not learning anything while in mass, which you attend.
Again that is why I stated your knowledge of the bible consists of limited sunday school teachings taught when you were younger. Another reason you ignored the Holy Codified Laws, I presented in Deuteromy, and Levictius.
Also while twenty-five may not seem like a large number, do you realize that when you take small samples of a populace, you can get a general idea of what the majority consists of, or are you oblivious to what the independent studies do, when they wish to find out peoples opinion on various topics. They don't ask everyone, they take a small sample and apply it to the majority which ever side comes out on top.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sunday school is not a discussion, in case you haven't noticed it is mostly "taught" to children, who are not very good a thinking for themselves, so they are presented with their teachers view of what the bible is and says.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely positively false. As I've already stated sunday school (all the ones I have gone to, as an adult) <u>discuss</u> the Bible. Not listen to what the teacher is presenting, but actually discuss the context.
Sorry, your interviewing a mere 25 ministers still is no where near scientific enough for you to be posting results on and hardly qualifies as "most ministers".
Hard as it may be for you, try,<b> hard</b>, to not derail this thread any more than what you have.
Blammo, you are confused about how Christianity works. It's not that those who believe in God are somehow better than those who don't, and therefore can get into heaven--the basic idea is that <i>none of us</i> is as good as God, and being as good as God is the standard. It only takes one sin for you to fall short of that standard, and not be able to reach heaven.
So since <i>no one</i> can reach heaven on their own, God offered us a loophole...rather than having to pay the price to get there on our own, he offered to pay the price for us, and let us in for free. He <i>wants</i> you to be there...yes, even you who don't believe in him. The only thing you have to do is accept his free offer. But if you don't believe he exists, it's rather difficult to accept his free offer.
(Note--this is not intended to be an argument for Chrisitianity's truth, merely to clear up a fairly important misunderstanding) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, man 2 pages in one night already *sighs and reads*
Lets get back to me not getting in heaven.
If God wants me to be there why won't he make any effort for me getting there. I have no reason to believe in God, if he made an clear effort which he can because he's God I would start believing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Sorry it took me 4 pages to get back to you Blammo, but this topic has positively exploded today.)
I would argue that he <i>has</i> made an effort. Are you waiting for God to personally design a miracle just for you to announce his presence? I guess you're just going to dismiss all the people you meet who will tell you they've met God, and try to help you to meet him as well. Because they don't count as God trying to find you, right? It has to be supernatural to count, of course. Oh, and just being supernatural isn't good enough--a minor miracle could always be explained away by some freak occurrance of physics, right? Basically you're waiting for God to walk into your room and say, "Hello Blammo. I'm God."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course I can accept his free offer, he just never made the offer yet. Only several religions have been making offers but how will I know if they're right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so you freely contradict your first point with that second one. So how do you know which of the many offers is real? Well, thats a little beyond the scope of this discussion--I'm not trying to convince you to become a Christian, just to explain to you how we think. But there is evidence around--in science, in philosophy, in you own heart even. Most of the offers don't really make much sense when you examine them closely--so examine them all closely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And why not give me the offer when I'm dead? That's easy enough, everyone has to face judgement or something right? well make me my offer then, how can I refuse if the evidence is crystal clear.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, lets look at that possibility--I suppose God could create a world where everyone could do whatever they wanted on earth, and then after they died then God would ask them all, "do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?" Then all of them would say, "Heaven", and you'd get to share Heaven with Mother Teresa on your left and Hitler on your right, and no distinction between any of them.
Then again--maybe he does exactly that. As I understand it, the question isn't, "Do you want to go to Heaven or Hell?" It's, "Do you want to come live with me or not?" The people who have spent 60 years of their lives running away from God aren't likely to suddenly say they want to come live with him now. It just so happens that once they decide not to live with God, Hell is the only home left over.
In sum---I don't understand precisely what happens after you die. We don't exactly have many reports from people who've died and then come back to explain it. But suffice it to say that if everyone escapes Judgement, then the entire concept of Judgement is meaningless. So there will necessarily be some who are judged and found guilty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't start about the bible being evidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again I'm better than God himself because I would make an effort and sacrifices for other people to help them and make them happy. God is not doing this for me
You've still not argued why I'm not a better person than god so my point still stands (of course I'm not a better person but explain why).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make yourself out to be a better person only by claiming that God is not doing certain things---which he in fact is doing. He does make an effort to make other people happy. He makes huge sacrifices for us (giving up your only child anyone?). God is doing all of this...and he is doing this even for <i>you!</i> He still wants to meet you. Wouldn't you like to meet him?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You've said it yourself this is just an argument how christianity works not logic which explains why I'm wrong... Than why is Depot treating it as such? This is very typical I've seen it happen so many times before. If a person gives four arguments and only one is countered the post is seen as countered and not of value. So I'm still waiting for someone who can explain with plain logic why I'm wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Done--via explaining that your previous points were based on faulty knowledge of Christian Doctrine. I suppose you could try again with your new knowledge--but the discussion has kind of moved beyond that point anyway. So don't bother.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So all in all: God gives me a free offer for eternal happieness and redemption of all my sins. The problem is I have no idea if I'm being conned or not. He doesn't make an effort at all to give me assurance. Also he doesn't bother explaining the whole thing when my time on earth is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, you don't know if you're being conned or not. That gives you two choices...you could go with the cliche, "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is", and just <i>assume</i> its a con. Or you could try to actually find out if this good deal is for real, since its a pretty good deal if it is real. And God gives you plenty of assurance once you take the deal--the closer you are to God, the easier it is to feel his presence. When you are far away, it is obviously harder to do so.
Here's my statistical sample:
Of the many ministers I have met, I have asked about the educational background of only two. Both of those two have Bachelors degrees from a public college, followed by a doctorate degree from a Seminary college, and have studied both Greek and Hebrew so that they don't have to rely on English translations for tough theological questions.
There! Statistically, 100% of ministers know Greek and Hebrew, right? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
(Margin of Error: +/- 75%)
{off topic rant}
Why do I even bother talking to people who are so set in their ways they can't even have a rational dicussion without resorting to personal attacks.
I am going to comment one more time, then I am done, for this is a waste of my time, and I would rather engage legionaired in actual discussion, rather then have some ignorant person attempt to refute something they can not.
I can understand why ageri is losing his patience. No matter how much you attempt to even show someon partial truth they ignore it.
The fact you can say your bible study is a "sunday school" implies it doesn't have the same meaning, I think you really need to let go of your crutch and start thinking for yourself for once.
I'm sorry to say that you don't think twenty-five minister isn't enough, but do you realize that even if I were to approach more, how many would accept? Five, ten?
None?
I have attempted to contact larger congregations on some questions, I have yet to recieve answers, (see one of the threads about the bible) if you don't realize by now, most ministers are so stuck up in their own self-righteousness, much like yourself depot, that they fail to even take the time to answer non-invasive questions.
Finally, that I am almost done with my little rant, I would like to say you have honestly lost all respect in my eyes. For someone who is supposed to have all this "worldy" experience, you have proved to me that someone who has lived all of fifty-seven years, is really no more then a child in mentality on many of the issues that surround such belief systems.
I'd like to apologize to everyone on here for dealing with me, in fact I am going to edit out all of my posts due to the sheer ignorance a few people decided to show and shall leave in what is relevant to the topic at hand. I would suggest a couple people do the same. Sidnely was right.. it did degrade more then even I thought it would and I didn't help anything.
{end off topic rant}
Therefore, if churches do discuss the Bible and parishoners are able to ask and learn about scripture, this would be a positive influence on their morals, which is what this thread is about. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane Jun 1 2005+ 09:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane Jun 1 2005 @ 09:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Finally, that I am almost done with my little rant, I would like to say you have honestly lost all respect in my eyes. For someone who is supposed to have all this "worldy" experience, you have proved to me that someone who has lived all of fifty-seven years, is really no more then a child in mentality on many of the issues that surround such belief systems. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cydane, some time ago when you made the mistake of insisting a Lexus LS400 was the same as a Toyota Avalon I lost all respect for you and your oppinions, so I guess we're on a level playing field now. At least I don't troll or intentionally derail threads. And btw, I don't blame you for editing out most of your posts, but the bad news is, most of them have been quoted so the evidence remains.
We are <b>ALL</b> children of God.
My bad.
Hell, I came out allright. *twitch* for the most part *twitch twitch*
My bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh certainly not! The bible has remained the same, just that corrupt individuals have mis-translated it or (when illiteracy was very high for example) deliberately twisted the meaning of the words to their own end. This doesn't change the fact that the bible is more or less the same message.
Incidently, to clarify something to anyone curious: I'm not, in any way implying that the bible *isn't* a good source of morality and other ideals. I am Christian after all so it would be rather odd for me to think such a thing anyway. What I AM saying (just to make it 100% clear) is that people distort or plainly ignore the bible depending on many societal issues simply out of human nature. Now this isn't an absolute; there were many Christians who didn't do things like support the NAZI regime or similar, just as there are many Muslims who do not support the extreme fundamentalists today (for a second analogy). All I mean to imply is that a great majority of people are affected largely by the society they find themselves in. One that has a deep seated hatred of one particular people, is going to probably pass that on to their Children and hence despite morality they pick up from a religion, is still likely to bear that hatred (or worse, compromise it into their religious beliefs, which is even worse).
My bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh certainly not! The bible has remained the same, just that corrupt individuals have mis-translated it or (when illiteracy was very high for example) deliberately twisted the meaning of the words to their own end. This doesn't change the fact that the bible is more or less the same message.
Incidently, to clarify something to anyone curious: I'm not, in any way implying that the bible *isn't* a good source of morality and other ideals. I am Christian after all so it would be rather odd for me to think such a thing anyway. What I AM saying (just to make it 100% clear) is that people distort or plainly ignore the bible depending on many societal issues simply out of human nature. Now this isn't an absolute; there were many Christians who didn't do things like support the NAZI regime or similar, just as there are many Muslims who do not support the extreme fundamentalists today (for a second analogy). All I mean to imply is that a great majority of people are affected largely by the society they find themselves in. One that has a deep seated hatred of one particular people, is going to probably pass that on to their Children and hence despite morality they pick up from a religion, is still likely to bear that hatred (or worse, compromise it into their religious beliefs, which is even worse). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well actually...
Wait, WTH? Agreement? Here?
'Lo! Sinners repent, the Son of Man cometh!
gg