My Map Needs A Layout

MouseMouse The Lighter Side of PessimismMembers, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
I hear the 'competitive scene' can help
Basic Theme: This map takes place below and within a mountain-top facility. The marine start and two of the hives are in the facility, one hive is below the facility.

Underside:
user posted image

user posted image


This map needs a layout.
-/AUS/- PS_Mouse
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Comments

  • digzdigz be still, maggot Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Posts: 872 mod
    edited May 2005
    Any off topic post will be dealt with harshly. Lets offer something real here.
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  • TheAdjTheAdj He demanded a cool forum title of some type. Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2004-05-03 Member: 28436Posts: 961 Fully active user
    I'll break out mspaint tonight and see what I can do.
    [NAPT]
  • InnocuousInnocuous Members Join Date: 2004-02-18 Member: 26671Posts: 70 Advanced user
    edited May 2005
    What are those screenshots of? The RR?

    And what kind of facility? Mining?
    axred_
    #nsbox

  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    Those screenshots are of a style test I did. I haven't decided on the purpose of the facility yet; not that it's required information for making a layout or anything.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • tjosantjosan Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335
    ns_veil2 ftw

    3 resnodes on each side (including side hive nodes), a double res node and a central hive in the middle.

    Yey!
  • digzdigz be still, maggot Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Posts: 872 mod
    Ok, first an explaination:

    This is a pseudo layout I imagined, no details on what it will actually look like, but laid out for purpose (like a flow chart.. omg hax)

    user posted image

    From my experience and opinion:
    • Each hive needs a siege location, preferably located farthest from marine start.
    • You should have 10 nodes average, 11 nodes max.
    • There are 11 nodes displayed on this layout. I would rather see either a double node, and have Nodes E,D,and C just be C and D between the three hives (10 nodes), OR just have a single node in double but have the extra node closer to MS.
    • Have each siege and spare Res location connected through vents to the closest hive.
    • Have the nearest MS nodes and double connected to MS via vents.
    • Have all hives connected via vents
    • Notice how the hives seem equal distances from MS. Each hive should be the same distance from MS time wise, and not so much physical distance (using ladders/elevators.. etc)
    • Hive nodes and alien nodes (note the dbl option with just C and D res towers) should not be able to be shot down from outside the room/hive.
    • Each hive should have a particular obstacle to overcome for marines. IE: Weld open the siege room.
    • One hive room is very alien friendly but easily sieged, one hive nearly unsiegeable but wide open, one hive (preferably the center hive) a mix of both, possibly two siege points.
    • Vents that can not be reached by marines unless designed for it.
    • I can not stress enouph how much MS needs more then two exits, a more open room but not a high ceiling. It should be the most marine friendly area of the map.


    Again, this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree. I too am very curious what other competitive players would like to see in a map.
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  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    edited May 2005
    I just tried to write a well reasoned response to Digz' layout (THREEE DAMN TIMES) and this stupid keyboard with its teeny weeny flipping POS KEYS took the browser 'back' twice and then CTRL-X'd...

    So I'm sorry if I don't give reasons, maybe the sticky in this forum might let you see why I say what I say when I say this layout is seriously flawed.

    P.S. Nice style, Mouse. I suggest you give the map purpose and then you'll get ideas for the layout (key locations, etc.).

    P.P.S. I've got a keyboard to trash...

    P.P.P.S 'flipping' confused-fix.gif
  • luckeeluckee European God Members Join Date: 2003-10-28 Member: 22086Posts: 245
    It might be advantageous to make a copy of this post, or to make a post linking to it on the CAL forums, these guys got useful info. by doing so.
    EUPT or something.
  • digzdigz be still, maggot Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Posts: 872 mod
    QUOTE (Crispy @ May 31 2005, 02:55 AM)
    So I'm sorry if I don't give reasons, maybe the sticky in this forum might let you see why I say what I say when I say this layout is seriously flawed.

    QUOTE
    his is a pseudo layout I imagined, no details on what it will actually look like, but laid out for purpose (like a flow chart..


    omg read kthks bbq. Besides, the closest map to physicaly implement this style (note, its not even an actualy layout...) is ns_veil and it seems pretty unflawless.
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  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Posts: 638
    The idea for nodes is that for each hive you should be able to drop 2-3 nodes that can reasonably be defended by aliens. Marines need 2 secure nodes as well, but will usually cap the far side of the map for another two bringing a normal very healthy marine node count to 5 by 4 minutes.

    Usually the obstacle to the hive squeak is talking about is a room. The obstacle to cargo on tanith is central access tunnels and the entrance to cargo. On the other side its the elevation differences in chem and acidic. That acidic ladder is a death trap. It doesn't need to be a weldable. The idea is that between every hive there should be both marine and alien biased areas.

    The middle hive usually averages 30-35 seconds marine walk time from MS and the wing hives are usually 20-25 seconds marine walk time. Hives aren't perfectly equidistant in most cases, the middle one is a little farther.
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  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Posts: 638
    Also, you want your map to not interconnect too much. That was the problem with altair, from any room you could get to any other room. Think about veil, if you go out west, you're not going to pipeline. On caged, if you go towards stability monitoring, the aliens know that ventilation is alright, and the inc is to gen. On tanith, you either go towards chem or towards double, and if a marine goes by west, you know he is going to go through waste as well.
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  • KmartKmart Honourary Euro Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32966Posts: 177
    edited May 2005
    Squeak:

    Your layout is very colorful and fun. However it has 11 nodes. 11 node maps are generally very large. Very large maps are bad for 6v6.

    Your map also has vents from the center of the map to both marine nodes. This will make it quite alien biased as marines will be harassed by skulks and lerks to no end when trying to cap the nodes that are supposed to be reserved for them. ns_veil certainly has West Skylights but it also has Topographical Analysis.

    Crispy:

    I don't like the idea of making maps with a central marine start and hives around it in a triangle. Competitive players (at least in CAL) have about 9 maps they consider to be absolutely fit and proper for competitive play, none of which utilize a triangular layout. So I think Squeak is at least on the right track with his layout.

    Mouse:

    Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.

    Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.

    edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words.
    Hi! I'm Kmart's signature. Unfortunately, I'm not very interesting. Sorry :(
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  • Steel_MonkeySteel_Monkey Members Join Date: 2004-10-06 Member: 32121Posts: 102
    I don't know much about essential map design, all my attempts at hammer have failed miserably, but one difference between a map like this and a normal one would be movement. Competitive players know how to work maps, wallstrafe, ramp hop and such. If the route between hives is meant to be around the same amount of time, take this into mind. I'm not saying add long walls and ramps. If the route to hive a is a 22 second walk with flat ground and disrupted walls, and the route to hive b is also 22 seconds but with straight walls and a lot of ramps and rails, hive b will be a lot faster to get to. This is all I can think of for the map itself, but adressing what Kmart said:


    If people are sick of "cargo" and "generator" why dont people make some alternate suggestions? These names are used a lot because they are standard on futuristic military facilities. Why dont some people make some suggestions for alternates. That is, if Mouse Doesn't mind.

    Alternates for Cargo: Hold, Storage,
    Alternates for Genereator: Power supply, Engine

    These are still pretty generic, but they're a little bit of a repreive from the normal titles. Maybe someone else can think of more.


    In Soviet Russia, NS plays you!
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    QUOTE (Kmart @ Jun 1 2005, 07:13 AM)
    Mouse:

    Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.

    Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.

    edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words.

    I've been clanned since 1.0, I think I can survive dealing with a few competitive players.

    The reason triangluar layouts rarely work (and trust me on this, I've made one), is because having the MS in the center screws with the Hive -> Hive travel times. In other words, if you keep the MS -> Hive times around 30 seconds, you're going to end up with the Hive -> Hive times appoaching 60 seconds. A decent vent network is also needed to keep the interconnectivity up between the hives and to also prevent the marines from blocking all access to a hive.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • GrahfGrahf Members Join Date: 2004-01-21 Member: 25558Posts: 224
    Keep it simple and it will be a success.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    QUOTE (digz @ May 31 2005, 09:23 AM)
    QUOTE (Crispy @ May 31 2005, 02:55 AM)
    So I'm sorry if I don't give reasons, maybe the sticky in this forum might let you see why I say what I say when I say this layout is seriously flawed.

    QUOTE
    his is a pseudo layout I imagined, no details on what it will actually look like, but laid out for purpose (like a flow chart..


    omg read kthks bbq. Besides, the closest map to physicaly implement this style (note, its not even an actualy layout...) is ns_veil and it seems pretty unflawless.

    Sigh. I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out for you.

    QUOTE
    Each hive needs a siege location, preferably located farthest from marine start.
    All hives have siege locations whether you like it or not. It's how tailored they are to siegeing that makes the difference. A combination of HA trains, JPs and Sieges and ninja PGs for Hive rushes should be included in a good map.
    QUOTE
    One hive room is very alien friendly but easily sieged, one hive nearly unsiegeable but wide open, one hive (preferably the center hive) a mix of both, possibly two siege points.
    I partly agree. I don't believe in easily siegable Hives. It's like having an easily stormable MS, which brings me to the next quote:
    QUOTE
    I can not stress enouph how much MS needs more then two exits, a more open room but not a high ceiling. It should be the most marine friendly area of the map.
    QUOTE
    Have the nearest MS nodes and double connected to MS via vents.
    It should be the most most Marine-friendly area of the map, yes, but how is having 3 vent exits and 3 main entrances going to make Marine's lives easier? Aliens need to get up close and personal to attack. Fewer points of entry means less directions to face and more concentrated fire on these entrances. If Marines have to split up their fire they'll have less firepower to do the damage before the Aliens are within attack range. The vents into MS are essentially stealth routes for skulks to get closer to the Marine base.
    QUOTE
    Have all hives connected via vents
    It works fairly well in Altair, but it's better to have vents connect to just outside the Hive. This allows Aliens to attack siege points from both sides (not just from the Hive under attack) and to choose to camp the entrances to pen the Marines in and reduce their movement options while reinforcements arrive.
    QUOTE
    Notice how the hives seem equal distances from MS. Each hive should be the same distance from MS time wise, and not so much physical distance (using ladders/elevators.. etc)
    Travel times should be roughly the same, but often it's impossible to balance this for every unit type of both teams. It's better to design the adjoining corridors to help the struggling classes and perhaps nerf (or simply give no advantage to) the faster classes to achieve some sort of mean travel time.
    QUOTE
    Each hive should have a particular obstacle to overcome for marines. IE: Weld open the siege room.
    You shouldn't put in weldable doors for Hives just for the sake of it. Gimmicks like that only lead to gameplay problems in the long run. ns_caged is an example of where the decision was taken to make that Hive entrance a weldable because of its proximity to MS and relative distance to the other Hives.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    edited June 2005
    QUOTE (Kmart @ May 31 2005, 04:13 PM)
    Crispy:

    I don't like the idea of making maps with a central marine start and hives around it in a triangle. Competitive players (at least in CAL) have about 9 maps they consider to be absolutely fit and proper for competitive play, none of which utilize a triangular layout. So I think Squeak is at least on the right track with his layout.

    Please re-read what I wrote and you'll see that I wasn't proposing this style in the slightest, but actually advising against perfecting a layout beforehand and by concentrating on balancing rooms to re-establish a balance throughout the map.

    [Edit] I wasn't very clear on that as it goes. Consider that section edited for clarity.
  • RobertoRoberto Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Posts: 340
    don't forget to leave room for onos
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  • digzdigz be still, maggot Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Posts: 872 mod
    Crispy, they are suggestions, not the rule. Im fine that you disagree with them, but I still think you are taking the layout too literaly.
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  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Posts: 638
    Squeak, your map sucks because your vents are pink. What kind of stupid map has pink vents. That doesn't even make sense!
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  • RobertoRoberto Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Posts: 340
    every hive room should have 2ish marine enterances
    Bloop bloop, go take a nap
  • DrFuriousDrFurious Members Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10445Posts: 88
    crosspost from CAL forums so others can see

    The most popular maps tend to (always?) have 2 marine nodes, 2 contested nodes, and 2 alien nodes in addition to the nodes inside each respective base. The trick to balancing the map is placement. For example, ns_veil has traditionally been a marine biased map. Part of the reason for this is the 2 marine nodes and the 2 alien nodes (overlook and c-12) are skewed toward the marine base and are easier to kill/hold while the 2 contested nodes are skewed toward the alien side. Tanith on the other hand has traditionally been an alien biased map. Looking at the node placement, the two alien nodes (I'll call them as cargo and acidic) are generally skewed toward the aliens, and the contested nodes (chemical and west) are skewed to the aliens as well.

    The other main consideration for balance is choke points between the hives. The better maps will have around 2 areas between each hive which the aliens must pass through where the marines can engage them. Passage between the hives should be safe but not absolutely safe for the aliens; give the marines a chance to isolate certain areas. This helps prevent one hive from being the "best" and also helps marines cap the opposite end of where the aliens are, which are crucial nodes to the marine economy. Examples of this are most obvious in ns_tanith where fusion and satcomm are intertwined such that if the aliens start with one the second hive will always be the other. Tanith's design also hurts the marines if the aliens start with waste, since the proximity to the nodes the aliens want makes capping the back side difficult.

    Otherwise, marines need large open places to set up phases, usually one of the contested nodes, and they need a decent spot to siege a hive from (biggest offender: sewer on ns_caged), but not to the point where the marines have it too easy (biggest offender: probably the old pipeline hive on ns_veil).

    Edit: try to avoid big differences in the z-axis. Having big changes in depth (like in ventilation hive on ns_origin) makes it difficult to command.
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  • titaniumtitanium Members Join Date: 2003-10-31 Member: 22166Posts: 334
    edited June 2005
    crossposts are cool

    QUOTE

    i don't feel like designing an entire map for you but one general guideline i will give you is to make it as 'symmetrical' as possible. for an example of this, see veil. each hive is nearly the same distance from marine start, the same number of nodes exist on each side of the map, it's an easy map to learn, etc. although veil does have some pretty major balance problems (mostly due to resource placement -- marines have it far too easy), it's a pretty good map to use as somewhat of a guide if you want to make a competitive map.

    also no matter how 'awesome' and 'unique' your ideas may be, if they make the map very lopsided and non-uniform (such as ns_nothing) then don't use them. having very different design strategies makes for interesting rooms, but it also means lots of those rooms are going to suck (powersilo hive and attempting to defend it from being sieged, anyone?)

    i know you're a good mapper for making things pretty but honestly visuals take a backseat to playability


    edit to add:

    all the hives should not be connected by vents. it should be possible for marines to cut off the aliens by building in smart places. allowing the aliens to get from any point on the map to any other point on the map without ever having to come in contact with marines is absurd. in fact, this is the biggest reason why nancy sucks

    "10 nodes average" is far too many. 10 should be the maximum, with more like 8 on average

    double resource rooms suck. please don't make any rooms with two resources in them

    having 'obstacles' all over the place is lame and gimmicky. go for smart room design (places for aliens to hide, still enough room for marines to build) instead of "LOL WELDABLE SIEGE ROOM WITH BREAKABLE GLASS" nonsense

    try to make the hives similar to ensure a fair game. making one hive 'wide open' and another 'easily siegable' means the team which gets a wide open hive versus marines with good aim is going to end in a spawncamp, whereas if they'd gotten the siegable hive, they might've had some sort of strategy for dealing with sieges (lerks, offense chambers, what have you). making the hives varied makes rounds less skill oriented and more of a "oh god i hope we get hive x" prayer-fest

    also i swear to god i'll come to your house and kick you in the head if you use the names cargo, generator, auxiliary _______, or ventilation


    once your map is playable go to #terror and let me know, i'll get some people together to help you test it
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    user posted image #terror
    titanium
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Mouse @ May 31 2005, 07:34 PM)
    QUOTE (Kmart @ Jun 1 2005, 07:13 AM)
    Mouse:

    Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.

    Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.

    edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words.

    I've been clanned since 1.0, I think I can survive dealing with a few competitive players.

    The reason triangluar layouts rarely work (and trust me on this, I've made one), is because having the MS in the center screws with the Hive -> Hive travel times. In other words, if you keep the MS -> Hive times around 30 seconds, you're going to end up with the Hive -> Hive times appoaching 60 seconds. A decent vent network is also needed to keep the interconnectivity up between the hives and to also prevent the marines from blocking all access to a hive.

    I don't know if this would work, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried it. I'm thinking you could make the ms in the center work if you made it substantially lower in elevation than the 3 hives. In that way the distance to the hives is increased without increasing the distance between them. You could also try making the marine start substantially higher than the hives, but that leads to the issue of marines bouncing down them. I'm not proposing a lot of ladders and elevators everywhere, ramps would probably be sufficient. I don't know if this would fix the problem sufficiently to make it work, but it seems like its worth thinking about.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    While I could have given this map a central MS, it's a hard style of layout to get working and balanced (which is why it isn't used much).

    I made a preliminary layout in one of my lectures today, I'll upload it when I get home.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    A preliminary layout. I haven't decided on elevation changes yet.

    user posted image
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    QUOTE
    Crispy, they are suggestions, not the rule. Im fine that you disagree with them, but I still think you are taking the layout too literaly.
    I think 3 vents and 3 entrances to MS is definitely a no-go area, even if the vents don't specifically lead into MS. Provided they allow Aliens to go undetected over half the map to pop out at MS they are an option that shouldn't be considered in a map designed for competitive play.

    ---

    Is that the amount of Res nodes you're going for? because shared nodes are kinda hardcore (MS/Hive1, Hive1/Hive2, Hive2/Hive3, Hive3/MS).

    If those are just the main res nodes, then I'd suggest the peripheral route RTs in a circle around dbl (that is, if those two res nodes are left consideraby close to eachother), although DBL should be considerable distance from any other RT.

    Ca't really say much on the paths because it looks like there are still more to add. Unless you're going for a very small intense map, which could be interesting as the tech would obviously have much more of an impact on the game and there would be little or no turing back. A interesting scenario for matchplay.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    edited June 2005
    10 nodes in total, there are nodes in the hives & marine start.

    And that is to scale, About the size of a normal NS map.
    vents = 64 units wide
    hallways = 128 units wide
    Large Hallways = 192 units wide

    (For reference a marine is 32 units wide)
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    Wow, I'm a smacktard! That really makes a lot more sense tounge.gif

    I could see this layout working, definitely. It's a nice base and if you find anything unbalanced you can tweak the rooms to restore an overall map balance.

    BTW, where are you putting the section from the screenshot?
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    To be honest it was just a style test. I doubt that exact area will go into the map at all. Although that does bring up something I'm yet to do. In my initial post I said the map would be split into upper (In the facility) and lower (below the facility). I haven't decided which parts of the map will be upper and which will be lower; all I know is that the marine start is upper and at least one of the hives is lower. Feel free to suggest which parts of the map shoud be upper/lower.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
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