imo the middle hive should be the lower one for balancing reasons...the right hive seems like it would work better though...but if you could make it lower without it having a disadvantage of some sort then go for it! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If we are to go on the rough distances given in the layout, I'd say keep the left side as an upper tier Hive and the middle as a lower tier Hive.
For the following text, Hives are 1,2 & 3 from left to right.
The left side appears closer to MS which might mean it will have its res nodes attacked sooner. Aliens from Hive1 (this is all based on the distance assumption) should have a little boost by being able to bear down on the res nodes (or at least the far left one). The far left res node should probably be put in the lower section of the map with the Hive1-side entrance (or section of the room that leads to it) having enough height veriation to sufficiently aid the Alien team.
The middle Hive (Hive2) should probably be a lower tier Hive so that Marines can't simply lock down the middle Hive and severely hinder Aliens' chances of dropping and holding the second Hive. However this is assuming that Marines are better off putting up a PG inside the Hive. If you build the middle Hive with a very appealing sieging option, I'd suggest making it so that Aliens can attack the siege room from above (so make Hive2 upper tier, I guess).
Every decision you make on the layout (3rd dimension included) has an effect on the area immediately surrounding it (which could be said to have a domino effect on the areas immediately surrounding them, and so on <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+Jun 2 2005, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ Jun 2 2005, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You are planning on vents out of the hive, right? At least towards ajacent rooms/hallways? It would be too easy to contain them otherwise. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed
The vent between the two rts in the middle should be hard to get to from either of the rts. Otherwise one skulk can just run to the other rt as a marine comes to save it and then back if he tries to save the other rt. It makes it very difficult to kill a lone skulk without bringing most of your team along. On orbital there is a vent from pen-15 node to one of the hive nodes that does this and it is near impossible to kill one skulk using that without wasting a huge amount of time.
i don't know if it's just because it's a mockup but it looks like you have just hallways between 'important' rooms (marine start, hives, resource tower rooms) and no intermediary rooms which are just there for the sake of being rooms. there should be some 'empty' rooms/areas for relocations, building sieges, etc
also i like the vent placement so far but any of the 'longer' vents should have multiple entrances/exits, instead of just being a vent from point a to point b (ie enter vent at point a and halfway through it, it splits and you can go to either b or c)
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-titanium+Jun 3 2005, 07:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (titanium @ Jun 3 2005, 07:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i don't know if it's just because it's a mockup but it looks like you have just hallways between 'important' rooms (marine start, hives, resource tower rooms) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly what I've done. I've made a basic version of the layout covering the essentials (hallways between key locations, vents to get from one hive approach to the other). I've left the placement of the 'non-essential' details to you guys (additional vents, additional hallways, empty rooms).
Mouse, just start designing hallways/rooms/hives etc with all the same entrance and vent sizes, then when you have maybe a few dozen just frankenstein it all together.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of Dooom+Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of Dooom @ Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> avoid lots of ladders and elevators. if you need an ely, be sure to have only one, and have it FAST moving.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
<!--QuoteBegin-meep+Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ramps and ramp brushed stairs makes marine travel quicker.
<!--QuoteBegin-meep+Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of Dooom+Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of Dooom @ Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> avoid lots of ladders and elevators. if you need an ely, be sure to have only one, and have it FAST moving.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
Although I totally agree about the ramp brush. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree with meep apart from the ramp brush, which I'd need more info on before having a strong opinion.
With the ramp brush surely stealth mines won't get used, or am I to take it that mines only get used in the MS and for ladders in comp. games?
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jun 5 2005, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jun 5 2005, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-meep+Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ Jun 3 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Gecko God Of Dooom+Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of Dooom @ Jun 3 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> avoid lots of ladders and elevators. if you need an ely, be sure to have only one, and have it FAST moving.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
Although I totally agree about the ramp brush. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree with meep apart from the ramp brush, which I'd need more info on before having a strong opinion.
With the ramp brush surely stealth mines won't get used, or am I to take it that mines only get used in the MS and for ladders in comp. games? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends how tight the stairs get. On tight stairs a ramp brush is better because it doesn't stop bhopping sharp, which means faster movement for marines, and less stopping for aliens; both sides like it. large stairs can still be bhopped up, although they require a little more skill, and you get to hide mines on them. Ramp brushes work best for tight stairs where they aren't increadibly unrealistic.
Weather or not your stairs should be ramp brushed is dependent on what you want to do with them in terms of gameplay. Non rampbrushed stairs are bad for fighting, but good for ambushes.
This information will be added to my Mapping for Matchplay document. Thanks Swift <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jun 6 2005, 04:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jun 6 2005, 04:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This information will be added to my Mapping for Matchplay document. Thanks Swift <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> meh, to really understand the difference you kinda have to know the signifigance of ramps as opposed to stairs to high level gameplay... really, it isn't that big a deal that mines are a little harder to hide if the stairways are really tight. Stairways, even if the hieght of every stair is just 1 or 2 units high, are bad news for bhopping. You stop sharp as you hit a vertical edge mid air, weather or not ground movement code would walk right over it effortlessly. Since compeditive gameplay is so dependent on little movement tricks like bhops and glide jumps so often, ramps just become a better option for compeditive aimed maps 99% of the time. No vertical edges means no difficult to predict and handle sudden mid air stops.
However this is just another arrow to add to my quiver of how to speed up / slow down movement between two given areas. I'll be including this as optional information that you can take or leave as a mapper, however I'll still include the fact that most competitive players would prefer ramps over stairs.
To add on to what someone said before about the central nodes, I reckon you should either have them both in the same room as a true DBL, or distance them from eachother somehow so that they can't be held with a central tfact/PG.
It looks to me that the left side will be the one chosen most frequently to get to the 'DBL' res area, as they can take a route that doesn't lead right up to a Hive (also the right corridor has two vent exits into it so it's gonna be pretty heavily patrolled by the Aliens).
I'm presuming that the vent in Hive1 is there to balance out the fact that it is the closest Hive to MS.
I do think he res looks a bit skewed over to the left side, with a group of 5 res nodes all within walking distance from Hive1. I'm not sure if this was to further balance that Hive, but I fear that this will actually bring Marines running and the Aliens could get held on that side of the map quite easily because they will have to constantly fight for their nodes. I'm not sure whether any team would be good enough to pull this off (and it would depend on the way you designed the corridors leading into the NorthWest and RightCentre nodes) but theoretically an Alien side could lock off those entrances to hold all of that res, but it would be a damn hard battle.
Of the two 'double' nodes (and this is just a thought), I'd say that the RightCentre should be a 'Marine' node and the left side should be Alien suited. Then keep the northernmost nodes for Marines and the southernmost for Aliens. This all sounds fairly obvious, but I'm putting special emphasis on the fact that the bottom nodes that connect the Hives really have to be hard rooms for Marines to take, otherwise Aliens will get screwed a lot judging by this (rough) layout. [Edit] although the vents do help a lot (something that I contradict myself on a bit later in this post).
---
Having judged it on the corridors you have included, we can probably make some assumptions on where to put the remaining corridors.
At the bottom of the map there need to be some routes that connect the Hives either as direct H-H routes or as HC-HC (Hive Corridor) routes. These could be vents or corridors, and I'd probably say make a route from HC3W (Hive3 Corridor, West side) to H2, so leading directly into Hive2.
Then I'd say change the southernmost vent to a corridor, lose the short connection leading north from the RT between H2 and H3, and shift it to connect halfway down the new corridor (so 1/2way down the lateral vent that I propose to change to a corridor. In any case, lateral route are definitely needed to connect H1 and H3 without going to H2 and without going through 'DBL'. This still means that there are the same amount of routes into the southernmost nodes, and the more entrances the better for early hit'n'run Alien classes (early Fade, Lerks)
At HC3E, move the easternmost vent exit closer to the Hive so that Aliens can nip straight in and head around to the other side of the Hive if being attacked. The way it is now (and I know you weren't going to leave it like this, but to explain) forces Aliens coming out of HE3E (Hive3 Exit, Eastern side) to spend too much time in HC3E and the vent. They'd probably just exit into a camping ambush.
Have a vent from H2 to the lateral corridor I proposed earlier on.
Have one more entrance to the 'DBL' section, either into the connecting corridor, or to the Easternmost of the two nodes.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Believe it or not Crispy, a diagram would do wonders for your suggestion. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[Arnie] Not an option <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/Arnie]
Soz I don't have access to a PC that I could make a diagram of acceptible size (no JPG editor), so you'll just have to do with my elaborate naming/codification scheme. It helps a lot if you have a window open with the layout you posted though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
For the following text, Hives are 1,2 & 3 from left to right.
The left side appears closer to MS which might mean it will have its res nodes attacked sooner. Aliens from Hive1 (this is all based on the distance assumption) should have a little boost by being able to bear down on the res nodes (or at least the far left one). The far left res node should probably be put in the lower section of the map with the Hive1-side entrance (or section of the room that leads to it) having enough height veriation to sufficiently aid the Alien team.
The middle Hive (Hive2) should probably be a lower tier Hive so that Marines can't simply lock down the middle Hive and severely hinder Aliens' chances of dropping and holding the second Hive. However this is assuming that Marines are better off putting up a PG inside the Hive. If you build the middle Hive with a very appealing sieging option, I'd suggest making it so that Aliens can attack the siege room from above (so make Hive2 upper tier, I guess).
Every decision you make on the layout (3rd dimension included) has an effect on the area immediately surrounding it (which could be said to have a domino effect on the areas immediately surrounding them, and so on <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
Agreed
also i like the vent placement so far but any of the 'longer' vents should have multiple entrances/exits, instead of just being a vent from point a to point b (ie enter vent at point a and halfway through it, it splits and you can go to either b or c)
That's exactly what I've done. I've made a basic version of the layout covering the essentials (hallways between key locations, vents to get from one hive approach to the other). I've left the placement of the 'non-essential' details to you guys (additional vents, additional hallways, empty rooms).
Call it ns_frankenstein.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
Although I totally agree about the ramp brush.
Ramps and ramp brushed stairs makes marine travel quicker.
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
Although I totally agree about the ramp brush. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with meep apart from the ramp brush, which I'd need more info on before having a strong opinion.
With the ramp brush surely stealth mines won't get used, or am I to take it that mines only get used in the MS and for ladders in comp. games?
also be sure to put an invsiable ramp brush over any stairs that you use, it will make like better for everyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ladders and elevators should be used appropriately, not limited out of hand. Sometimes you want to make it difficult for marines to get somewhere by making it a long walk, sometimes you want to do it by making it "rough terrain" - which in the scope of NS (interior environments) is ladders, ramps, elevators, cargo boxes and rooms with lots of vents/pipes/beams.
Although I totally agree about the ramp brush. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally agree with meep apart from the ramp brush, which I'd need more info on before having a strong opinion.
With the ramp brush surely stealth mines won't get used, or am I to take it that mines only get used in the MS and for ladders in comp. games? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends how tight the stairs get. On tight stairs a ramp brush is better because it doesn't stop bhopping sharp, which means faster movement for marines, and less stopping for aliens; both sides like it. large stairs can still be bhopped up, although they require a little more skill, and you get to hide mines on them. Ramp brushes work best for tight stairs where they aren't increadibly unrealistic.
Weather or not your stairs should be ramp brushed is dependent on what you want to do with them in terms of gameplay. Non rampbrushed stairs are bad for fighting, but good for ambushes.
meh, to really understand the difference you kinda have to know the signifigance of ramps as opposed to stairs to high level gameplay... really, it isn't that big a deal that mines are a little harder to hide if the stairways are really tight. Stairways, even if the hieght of every stair is just 1 or 2 units high, are bad news for bhopping. You stop sharp as you hit a vertical edge mid air, weather or not ground movement code would walk right over it effortlessly. Since compeditive gameplay is so dependent on little movement tricks like bhops and glide jumps so often, ramps just become a better option for compeditive aimed maps 99% of the time. No vertical edges means no difficult to predict and handle sudden mid air stops.
It looks to me that the left side will be the one chosen most frequently to get to the 'DBL' res area, as they can take a route that doesn't lead right up to a Hive (also the right corridor has two vent exits into it so it's gonna be pretty heavily patrolled by the Aliens).
I'm presuming that the vent in Hive1 is there to balance out the fact that it is the closest Hive to MS.
I do think he res looks a bit skewed over to the left side, with a group of 5 res nodes all within walking distance from Hive1. I'm not sure if this was to further balance that Hive, but I fear that this will actually bring Marines running and the Aliens could get held on that side of the map quite easily because they will have to constantly fight for their nodes. I'm not sure whether any team would be good enough to pull this off (and it would depend on the way you designed the corridors leading into the NorthWest and RightCentre nodes) but theoretically an Alien side could lock off those entrances to hold all of that res, but it would be a damn hard battle.
Of the two 'double' nodes (and this is just a thought), I'd say that the RightCentre should be a 'Marine' node and the left side should be Alien suited. Then keep the northernmost nodes for Marines and the southernmost for Aliens. This all sounds fairly obvious, but I'm putting special emphasis on the fact that the bottom nodes that connect the Hives really have to be hard rooms for Marines to take, otherwise Aliens will get screwed a lot judging by this (rough) layout. [Edit] although the vents do help a lot (something that I contradict myself on a bit later in this post).
---
Having judged it on the corridors you have included, we can probably make some assumptions on where to put the remaining corridors.
At the bottom of the map there need to be some routes that connect the Hives either as direct H-H routes or as HC-HC (Hive Corridor) routes. These could be vents or corridors, and I'd probably say make a route from HC3W (Hive3 Corridor, West side) to H2, so leading directly into Hive2.
Then I'd say change the southernmost vent to a corridor, lose the short connection leading north from the RT between H2 and H3, and shift it to connect halfway down the new corridor (so 1/2way down the lateral vent that I propose to change to a corridor. In any case, lateral route are definitely needed to connect H1 and H3 without going to H2 and without going through 'DBL'. This still means that there are the same amount of routes into the southernmost nodes, and the more entrances the better for early hit'n'run Alien classes (early Fade, Lerks)
At HC3E, move the easternmost vent exit closer to the Hive so that Aliens can nip straight in and head around to the other side of the Hive if being attacked. The way it is now (and I know you weren't going to leave it like this, but to explain) forces Aliens coming out of HE3E (Hive3 Exit, Eastern side) to spend too much time in HC3E and the vent. They'd probably just exit into a camping ambush.
Have a vent from H2 to the lateral corridor I proposed earlier on.
Have one more entrance to the 'DBL' section, either into the connecting corridor, or to the Easternmost of the two nodes.
Soz I don't have access to a PC that I could make a diagram of acceptible size (no JPG editor), so you'll just have to do with my elaborate naming/codification scheme. It helps a lot if you have a window open with the layout you posted though <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Soz to be unhelpfully helpful.