My Map Needs A Layout
Mouse
The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">I hear the 'competitive scene' can help</div> Basic Theme: This map takes place below and within a mountain-top facility. The marine start and two of the hives are in the facility, one hive is below the facility.
Underside:
<img src='http://www.terminus-discord.com/~mouse/frigid0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.terminus-discord.com/~mouse/frigid0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This map needs a layout.
Underside:
<img src='http://www.terminus-discord.com/~mouse/frigid0000.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<img src='http://www.terminus-discord.com/~mouse/frigid0001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This map needs a layout.
Comments
And what kind of facility? Mining?
3 resnodes on each side (including side hive nodes), a double res node and a central hive in the middle.
Yey!
This is a pseudo layout I imagined, no details on what it will actually look like, but laid out for purpose (like a flow chart.. omg hax)
<img src='http://laconica.net/ns_forums/digzRandom/PseudoLayout.JPG' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
From my experience and opinion:<ul><li>Each hive needs a siege location, preferably located farthest from marine start.</li></ul><ul><li>You should have 10 nodes average, 11 nodes max.</li></ul><ul><li>There are 11 nodes displayed on this layout. I would rather see either a double node, and have Nodes E,D,and C just be C and D between the three hives (10 nodes), OR just have a single node in double but have the extra node closer to MS.</li></ul><ul><li>Have each siege and spare Res location connected through vents to the closest hive.</li></ul><ul><li>Have the nearest MS nodes and double connected to MS via vents.</li></ul><ul><li>Have all hives connected via vents</li></ul><ul><li> Notice how the hives seem equal distances from MS. Each hive should be the same distance from MS <i>time</i> wise, and not so much physical distance (using ladders/elevators.. etc)</li></ul><ul><li>Hive nodes and alien nodes (note the dbl option with just C and D res towers) should not be able to be shot down from outside the room/hive.</li></ul><ul><li>Each hive should have a particular obstacle to overcome for marines. IE: Weld open the siege room.</li></ul><ul><li>One hive room is very alien friendly but easily sieged, one hive nearly unsiegeable but wide open, one hive (preferably the center hive) a mix of both, possibly two siege points.</li></ul><ul><li>Vents that can not be reached by marines unless designed for it.</li></ul><ul><li>I can not stress enouph how much MS needs more then two exits, a more open room but not a high ceiling. It should be the most marine friendly area of the map.</li></ul>
Again, this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree. I too am very curious what other competitive players would like to see in a map.
So I'm sorry if I don't give reasons, maybe the sticky in this forum might let you see why I say what I say when I say this layout is seriously flawed.
P.S. Nice style, Mouse. I suggest you give the map purpose and then you'll get ideas for the layout (key locations, etc.).
P.P.S. I've got a keyboard to trash...
P.P.P.S 'flipping' <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->his is a pseudo layout I imagined, <i>no details on what it will actually look like</i>, but laid out for purpose (like a <b>flow chart</b>.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg read kthks bbq. Besides, the closest map to physicaly implement this style (note, its not even an actualy layout...) is ns_veil and it seems pretty unflawless.
Usually the obstacle to the hive squeak is talking about is a room. The obstacle to cargo on tanith is central access tunnels and the entrance to cargo. On the other side its the elevation differences in chem and acidic. That acidic ladder is a death trap. It doesn't need to be a weldable. The idea is that between every hive there should be both marine and alien biased areas.
The middle hive usually averages 30-35 seconds marine walk time from MS and the wing hives are usually 20-25 seconds marine walk time. Hives aren't perfectly equidistant in most cases, the middle one is a little farther.
Your layout is very colorful and fun. However it has 11 nodes. 11 node maps are generally very large. Very large maps are bad for 6v6.
Your map also has vents from the center of the map to both marine nodes. This will make it quite alien biased as marines will be harassed by skulks and lerks to no end when trying to cap the nodes that are supposed to be reserved for them. ns_veil certainly has West Skylights but it also has Topographical Analysis.
Crispy:
I don't like the idea of making maps with a central marine start and hives around it in a triangle. Competitive players (at least in CAL) have about 9 maps they consider to be absolutely fit and proper for competitive play, none of which utilize a triangular layout. So I think Squeak is at least on the right track with his layout.
Mouse:
Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.
Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.
edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words.
If people are sick of "cargo" and "generator" why dont people make some alternate suggestions? These names are used a lot because they are standard on futuristic military facilities. Why dont some people make some suggestions for alternates. That is, if Mouse Doesn't mind.
Alternates for Cargo: Hold, Storage,
Alternates for Genereator: Power supply, Engine
These are still pretty generic, but they're a little bit of a repreive from the normal titles. Maybe someone else can think of more.
Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.
Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.
edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been clanned since 1.0, I think I can survive dealing with a few competitive players.
The reason triangluar layouts rarely work (and trust me on this, I've made one), is because having the MS in the center screws with the Hive -> Hive travel times. In other words, if you keep the MS -> Hive times around 30 seconds, you're going to end up with the Hive -> Hive times appoaching 60 seconds. A decent vent network is also needed to keep the interconnectivity up between the hives and to also prevent the marines from blocking all access to a hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->his is a pseudo layout I imagined, <i>no details on what it will actually look like</i>, but laid out for purpose (like a <b>flow chart</b>.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
omg read kthks bbq. Besides, the closest map to physicaly implement this style (note, its not even an actualy layout...) is ns_veil and it seems pretty unflawless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh. I guess I'm gonna have to spell it out for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Each hive needs a siege location, preferably located farthest from marine start.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->All hives have siege locations whether you like it or not. It's how tailored they are to siegeing that makes the difference. A combination of HA trains, JPs and Sieges and ninja PGs for Hive rushes should be included in a good map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One hive room is very alien friendly but easily sieged, one hive nearly unsiegeable but wide open, one hive (preferably the center hive) a mix of both, possibly two siege points.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I partly agree. I don't believe in easily siegable Hives. It's like having an easily stormable MS, which brings me to the next quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can not stress enouph how much MS needs more then two exits, a more open room but not a high ceiling. It should be the most marine friendly area of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have the nearest MS nodes and double connected to MS via vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It should be the most most Marine-friendly area of the map, yes, but how is having 3 vent exits and 3 main entrances going to make Marine's lives easier? Aliens need to get up close and personal to attack. Fewer points of entry means less directions to face and more concentrated fire on these entrances. If Marines have to split up their fire they'll have less firepower to do the damage before the Aliens are within attack range. The vents into MS are essentially stealth routes for skulks to get closer to the Marine base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have all hives connected via vents<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It works fairly well in Altair, but it's better to have vents connect to just outside the Hive. This allows Aliens to attack siege points from both sides (not just from the Hive under attack) and to choose to camp the entrances to pen the Marines in and reduce their movement options while reinforcements arrive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Notice how the hives seem equal distances from MS. Each hive should be the same distance from MS time wise, and not so much physical distance (using ladders/elevators.. etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Travel times should be roughly the same, but often it's impossible to balance this for every unit type of both teams. It's better to design the adjoining corridors to help the struggling classes and perhaps nerf (or simply give no advantage to) the faster classes to achieve some sort of mean travel time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Each hive should have a particular obstacle to overcome for marines. IE: Weld open the siege room.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You shouldn't put in weldable doors for Hives just for the sake of it. Gimmicks like that only lead to gameplay problems in the long run. ns_caged is an example of where the decision was taken to make that Hive entrance a weldable because of its proximity to MS and relative distance to the other Hives.
I don't like the idea of making maps with a central marine start and hives around it in a triangle. Competitive players (at least in CAL) have about 9 maps they consider to be absolutely fit and proper for competitive play, none of which utilize a triangular layout. So I think Squeak is at least on the right track with his layout. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please re-read what I wrote and you'll see that I wasn't proposing this style <b>in the slightest</b>, but actually advising against perfecting a layout beforehand and by concentrating on balancing rooms to re-establish a balance throughout the map.
[Edit] I wasn't very clear on that as it goes. Consider that section edited for clarity.
The most popular maps tend to (always?) have 2 marine nodes, 2 contested nodes, and 2 alien nodes in addition to the nodes inside each respective base. The trick to balancing the map is placement. For example, ns_veil has traditionally been a marine biased map. Part of the reason for this is the 2 marine nodes and the 2 alien nodes (overlook and c-12) are skewed toward the marine base and are easier to kill/hold while the 2 contested nodes are skewed toward the alien side. Tanith on the other hand has traditionally been an alien biased map. Looking at the node placement, the two alien nodes (I'll call them as cargo and acidic) are generally skewed toward the aliens, and the contested nodes (chemical and west) are skewed to the aliens as well.
The other main consideration for balance is choke points between the hives. The better maps will have around 2 areas between each hive which the aliens must pass through where the marines can engage them. Passage between the hives should be safe but not absolutely safe for the aliens; give the marines a chance to isolate certain areas. This helps prevent one hive from being the "best" and also helps marines cap the opposite end of where the aliens are, which are crucial nodes to the marine economy. Examples of this are most obvious in ns_tanith where fusion and satcomm are intertwined such that if the aliens start with one the second hive will always be the other. Tanith's design also hurts the marines if the aliens start with waste, since the proximity to the nodes the aliens want makes capping the back side difficult.
Otherwise, marines need large open places to set up phases, usually one of the contested nodes, and they need a decent spot to siege a hive from (biggest offender: sewer on ns_caged), but not to the point where the marines have it too easy (biggest offender: probably the old pipeline hive on ns_veil).
Edit: try to avoid big differences in the z-axis. Having big changes in depth (like in ventilation hive on ns_origin) makes it difficult to command.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
i don't feel like designing an entire map for you but one general guideline i will give you is to make it as 'symmetrical' as possible. for an example of this, see veil. each hive is nearly the same distance from marine start, the same number of nodes exist on each side of the map, it's an easy map to learn, etc. although veil does have some pretty major balance problems (mostly due to resource placement -- marines have it far too easy), it's a pretty good map to use as somewhat of a guide if you want to make a competitive map.
also no matter how 'awesome' and 'unique' your ideas may be, if they make the map very lopsided and non-uniform (such as ns_nothing) then don't use them. having very different design strategies makes for interesting rooms, but it also means lots of those rooms are going to suck (powersilo hive and attempting to defend it from being sieged, anyone?)
i know you're a good mapper for making things pretty but honestly visuals take a backseat to playability<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edit to add:
all the hives should not be connected by vents. it should be possible for marines to cut off the aliens by building in smart places. allowing the aliens to get from any point on the map to any other point on the map without ever having to come in contact with marines is absurd. in fact, this is the biggest reason why nancy sucks
"10 nodes average" is far too many. 10 should be the maximum, with more like 8 on average
double resource rooms suck. please don't make any rooms with two resources in them
having 'obstacles' all over the place is lame and gimmicky. go for smart room design (places for aliens to hide, still enough room for marines to build) instead of "LOL WELDABLE SIEGE ROOM WITH BREAKABLE GLASS" nonsense
try to make the hives similar to ensure a fair game. making one hive 'wide open' and another 'easily siegable' means the team which gets a wide open hive versus marines with good aim is going to end in a spawncamp, whereas if they'd gotten the siegable hive, they might've had some sort of strategy for dealing with sieges (lerks, offense chambers, what have you). making the hives varied makes rounds less skill oriented and more of a "oh god i hope we get hive x" prayer-fest
also i swear to god i'll come to your house and kick you in the head if you use the names cargo, generator, auxiliary _______, or ventilation
once your map is playable go to #terror and let me know, i'll get some people together to help you test it
Thank you for making a map for competitive players. I hope you realize that in this process you will have to deal with competitive players. Few travel the road you're on, and that's a fact.
Your style test sort of reminds me of ns_mineshaft. But never fear, I'm sure your map will not remind me of ns_mineshaft. Just make sure to make the map bright and all will be well.
edit: I beg of you, please please please do not name any rooms "Cargo" or "Generator." I am getting so sick of repeating those words. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been clanned since 1.0, I think I can survive dealing with a few competitive players.
The reason triangluar layouts rarely work (and trust me on this, I've made one), is because having the MS in the center screws with the Hive -> Hive travel times. In other words, if you keep the MS -> Hive times around 30 seconds, you're going to end up with the Hive -> Hive times appoaching 60 seconds. A decent vent network is also needed to keep the interconnectivity up between the hives and to also prevent the marines from blocking all access to a hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if this would work, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried it. I'm thinking you could make the ms in the center work if you made it substantially lower in elevation than the 3 hives. In that way the distance to the hives is increased without increasing the distance between them. You could also try making the marine start substantially higher than the hives, but that leads to the issue of marines bouncing down them. I'm not proposing a lot of ladders and elevators everywhere, ramps would probably be sufficient. I don't know if this would fix the problem sufficiently to make it work, but it seems like its worth thinking about.
I made a preliminary layout in one of my lectures today, I'll upload it when I get home.
<img src='http://www.terminus-discord.com/~mouse/frigidlayout.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
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Is that the amount of Res nodes you're going for? because shared nodes are kinda hardcore (MS/Hive1, Hive1/Hive2, Hive2/Hive3, Hive3/MS).
If those are just the main res nodes, then I'd suggest the peripheral route RTs in a circle around dbl (that is, if those two res nodes are left consideraby close to eachother), although DBL should be considerable distance from any other RT.
Ca't really say much on the paths because it looks like there are still more to add. Unless you're going for a very small intense map, which could be interesting as the tech would obviously have much more of an impact on the game and there would be little or no turing back. A interesting scenario for matchplay.
And that is to scale, About the size of a normal NS map.
vents = 64 units wide
hallways = 128 units wide
Large Hallways = 192 units wide
(For reference a marine is 32 units wide)
I could see this layout working, definitely. It's a nice base and if you find anything unbalanced you can tweak the rooms to restore an overall map balance.
BTW, where are you putting the section from the screenshot?