Charlie/the Team. A Little Heads Up.

The_Wicked_OneThe_Wicked_One Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19108Members
edited May 2005 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Regarding Source Issues. (long post)</div> First off, I'd like to offer my sincere gratitude to Flayra/The NS Team for considering to go Source. I would have hated to see NS die with an obsolete engine when the game itself has potential beyond comprehension.

Flayra might remember me from NS as Dave (aka Dave-God/Über-Com). We had a few discussions about the game, modding, the team, etc etc. Unfortunately I dropped off the planet when source came out because of its graphics. lol. Sorry, I just love pretty things. lol

Now, while I am absolutely thrilled by the choice to go source with NS, I must give a few pointers about the source engine to Flayra/the team so that they are not overlooked during modding. My guess is that the team has already cracked source open and figured all this stuff out anyway, but I figured it wouldn't hurt JUST in case things get overlooked. CS:Source got raped due to the problems with the engine, and hopefully NS will have some venue of avoiding or otherwise compensating for the lack of engineering quality that has plagued Source so far.

Please don't be mislead, I am not trying to flame source or drive people away from it. I actually find source quite fun despite its problems, and will continue to enjoy it along with its third party mods. These issues that I am posting are, in fact, my opinion/observations/information along with a multitude of other experienced players, mappers, and modders, from the original Half Life and Half Life 2/Source.

The main issue, that is holding the most concern for many players at this point, is the pathetic netcode for source. Currently there are several problems both client side and server side. I will do my best to explain.

Presently the clientside issues are light in comparason to server side problems. One of the main complications is simple relaying. I.e. You have your crosshairs on the guy's forehead, pull the trigger, and miss. Simlulaniously, you can aim three feet in either direction of the player, pull the trigger, and hit. Bear in mind that I have honed my own ISP/Console/Cfg down to a science, and while the severity of the problems decreased significantly, they are still quite apparent. This is another main reason why new players to source are going "WTH? That worked on 1.6!!" Basically, they aren't aware of the netcode issues, and haven't done their personal configs/consoles to compensate. Also, clientside registry is not relaying properly to the serverside registry. What would be considered a hit on your screen, is not a hit on the server's 'screen' even if your ISP/Cfg is perfect. This effectively means that aim is secondary in source unless the server you're on is flawless in terms of its own customed cfg/ISP. (Oh, and yes, most sysops for any reliable server on source has had to do massive alterations just to get their server to stay stable and accurate)

Secondly, and probably a little less important is the physics registry/relay issue. For those who have played source already, regardless of the game, have noticed those little 'movable' physics objects that are so fun to throw at people with the gravity gun and watch them smack into the wall. =D (or otherwise create barricades with). These wonderful objects are actually another reason for horrid lag in Source. Effectively, whlie they add a great 'feel' and playability to a map, they are a nightmare for servers.

Lets say for example the mapper has placed several wooden (destroyable/Movable) boxes stacked atop one another. Maybe, 6-10 boxes. Someone throws a grenade, and it lands behind those boxes. (or close enough to make every box blow up and send splinters of graphical goodness all over the room) When the server recognizes what has happened, it must send the packets of information to every connected client to tell them exactly what happend to the boxes. Basically, what made the boxes blow up in a particular direction (trajectory, which boxes actually desintegrated or just cracked a bit, etc) and what was left of this entire occurance (Splinters on the ground, any objects inside the boxes are now accessable, starting respawn timer, etc) The sheer amount of bandwidth required to do this is absolutely <b>insane</b>.

Third, and probably as important, is simple clientside error/ignorance and more lag. Normally, you get on a server, someone has 200+ ping, and you really don't care right? You can still kill them, and they're probably having troubles killing you. Hah, serves them right for living in Bum Fk Egypt with no Reliable ISP. (Sorry, I can be a **** at times. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) So when you see people with 200 ping, and their easy to kill/dodge, you instantly assume its their lag. Actually, lag is completely **** backwards in Source. Basically, you can find people on a server that have a seemingly low 20-50 ping, and be completely unaware of the fact that they are lagging tremendously, while some of those 150+ pingers aren't lagging much at all.

Next time any of you are in source, go to console and type cl_interp 0 and cl_smooth 0. This will tell your client to stop compensating for lagging players by smoothing their animations/models. If someone is lagging, chances are those commands will tell you who is and who isn't. You'll probably be surprised to see many of the LPB's lagging through 80% of your shots and still being able to kill you simply. They'll deny it of course, because they go "no no, Look at my ping. My ping is good!" being completely unware that they're losing packets left and right. So having a great ISP in Source might get you killed faster than it will get you to survive. Chances are when more of the Source community hears of this, they'll be admining a touch more to warn/kick laggers of a certain severity since I highly doubt Valve wants to rework their netcode. (IMO Source should have stayed alpha/beta for another minimum six months)

There is much more to it than that, but I'll give your eyes a rest. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Once again, I state that I am in no way attempting to flame or otherwise make source look bad. I simply am aware of these issues and believed it to be of importance to the NS team. (if they haven't found this all out already)

Hopefully this might help the mappers for NS (offical or otherwise) not put too many interactive physics of high graphical nature onto their maps also. Obviously, some good destroyable physics are fun, but try not to go overboard considering. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Also, when creating skulks, or other small boxed, fast moving creatures, try to remember that it might (hopefully not) be a pain in the **** trying to hit them with guns on the Source engine due to simple lag crop-ups. (both engine, and client)

Bringing the feel of the Natural Selection game to the Source engine will indeed be a daunting task, but I fully believe that Charlie/The team are quite capable of such a feat . .And needless to say, when its all done, There will be no more source for me. Just, NS:Source. =D (oh how I miss my NS days. . heh)

I appriciate your time, and welcome any questions. If I have been of any help at all, I am glad.

Dave (aka Dave-God/Über-Com)
Slut of NS since its conception.
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Comments

  • Garet_JaxGaret_Jax Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13870Members, Constellation
    edited May 2005
    I think people are making a big issue out of the Source netcode.

    There's a C-S video doing the rounds, that shows hitboxes well ahead of the model- but this doesn't happen unless you mess with your interpolation settings.

    From the (little) CS:S I've played, I've never had any hotbox issues (I will put down a missed kill due to lack of aim, rather than the netcode).

    I guess what I'm trying to say, is that the CS:S "omg hitboxes!" whine is equivalent to the NS "omg rates/Spaniard" whine.

    Though the above isn't directed at you, your post is far more mature and meaningful than what I imagine is plaguing the Steam forums! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2005
    Haha he said the registry problems were smaller than bad netcode ahahahahaha

    Edit: No, but seriously, bad netcode is liveable, registry problems aren't.
  • obuhobuh Not Quite Smart at NS Join Date: 2003-03-31 Member: 15072Members, Constellation
    edited April 2007
    <!--QuoteBegin-Garet Jax+May 24 2005, 10:02 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Garet Jax @ May 24 2005, 10:02 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think people are making a big issue out of the Source netcode.

    There's a C-S video doing the rounds, that shows hitboxes well ahead of the model- but this doesn't happen unless you mess with your interpolation settings.

    From the (little) CS:S I've played, I've never had any hotbox issues (I will put down a missed kill due to lack of aim, rather than the netcode).

    I guess what I'm trying to say, is that the CS:S "omg hitboxes!" whine is equivalent to the NS "omg rates/Spaniard" whine.

    Though the above isn't directed at you, your post is far more mature and meaningful than what I imagine is plaguing the Steam forums! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://www.lol.com/de_dust.png" target="_blank">lol</a>

    Taken on a listenserver with a BOT, with default interp. Yeah, bots on your server shouldn't really lag right ? So you shouldn't even need to interpolate. Let's play "guess where the hitboxes actually are" ?
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
    I've tried this as well, and it is quite obvious that hitboxes are way off compared to the player model.
  • Real_PUAReal_PUA Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46255Members
  • DirmDirm Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31025Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    This is the probably the video mentioned:

    <a href='http://evo.gameover.com/mart/CSS_Hitboxes_Suck.avi' target='_blank'>high quality (about 37MB)</a>
    <a href='http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=css_hit_b0x_bb' target='_blank'>lower quality, streaming</a>
    (I don't know if some sort of warning is appropriate, but the video has a song playing in the background with naughty language)

    It gets a lot better toward the end, and tells you how to reproduce the problems. I have not tried this personally, but after my time with HL1, I am not disinclined to believe this video.

    This video seems like it would cause much dissatisfaction amongst CS:S players, so I am sure it has been thoroughly discussed in other forums. I do not play CS:S, nor read CS:S forums, so I do not know how well this video jives with the actual game.
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn &quot;War is the science of destruction&quot; - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Members
    Ive seen a video similiar to that one over at the steam forums. It got very confusing when someone else posted a video showing that the hitboxes didnt matter on a REAL server, (not a listen server like that guy in the vid used) and that just hitting the model itself caused damage...
  • HeliocentricHeliocentric Join Date: 2005-04-24 Member: 49650Members
    i must admit, most of these "Source hitcode sucks" topics have been less then scientific, more tests on real servers under real conditions (with tirtiary tests under odd situations, such as a lerk cel speed) are desired.
  • Status_QuoStatus_Quo Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25749Members
    I have to admit I haven't played CS: S a whole lot, but I can't say I noticed anything when I did. I have also played Source Forts and Hidden, and didn't really notice anything wrong with those mods either.
  • LegeLege Join Date: 2005-05-24 Member: 52292Members
    I haven't noticed any massive problems during the couple of months I have played CS:S, or even with HL2DM. I haven't even heard of Source engine hitbox problems until now, so I guess it's not that much of an issue really.

    BUT, if those problems will show up in NS, I truly am sure that Flayra & Co. can sort them out.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    There is a distinct lack of evidence taken from real games in non-controlled circmustances. Turning sv_cheats on and playing a listen server game with bots is not an effective way to prove the existance of a problem in online games. If it's really as obvious as that video makes it out to be, then why didn't they do it in a real game?

    Regardless of whether or not the problem really exists, I've played enough real games of CS:S to say that it's grossly exaggerated, and Valve has plenty of time and incentive to make fixes to the netcode if it turns out to be an issue.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    i would like to start up a real server, with people that can be trusted, turn on cheats and play some normal rounds with hitboxes shown. has anyone done this?
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I like the pause in hl2dm when your picking up a barrel and when it hits the ground. It's not a long pause, just a quick pause but definitely noticable.
  • HyperionHyperion Hyperion2010 Join Date: 2003-10-06 Member: 21477Members
    Very nice post.

    The biggest problem in my mind is not nessicarily the netcode (which does have lots of problems), but rather the fact that Source doesnt give back reliable information on what is actually going on with servers and players. The fact that there are alot of bad servers out there makes this problem worse. Honestly this can be summed up by saying:

    "Ping in source means NOTHING"

    The problem is not with sending info back and forth, its with how information is registered on the server, processed and sent back out.

    There was a very excillent post on this awhile back on the steam fourms. It mostly showed how its really when events are registered that makes the difference and how drastiaclly they change depending on when they occure in the interval between registering checks (or whatever they are called).
  • Fatal_ErrorFatal_Error Join Date: 2005-01-15 Member: 35840Members
    So, really, loss and choke matter the most. I'm sure the crappy netcode will be fixed by the time NSS is released.
  • The_Wicked_OneThe_Wicked_One Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19108Members
    I must admit, the lol picture, and the video (I dled the 37 meg) was absolutely priceless. I mean, Valve. . Jesus. . Get it together. Lol. I do however, realize with a good custom cfg/isp you can reduce those issues a considerable amount, although they'll never go away completely untill Valve steps up.

    Still rolling on the floor at the video,

    Dave (aka Dave-God/Über-Com)
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Dirm+May 24 2005, 09:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dirm @ May 24 2005, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the probably the video mentioned:

    <a href='http://evo.gameover.com/mart/CSS_Hitboxes_Suck.avi' target='_blank'>high quality (about 37MB)</a>
    <a href='http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=css_hit_b0x_bb' target='_blank'>lower quality, streaming</a>
    <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Ohnoes its all over the internets.
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn &quot;War is the science of destruction&quot; - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-The Wicked One+May 25 2005, 02:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Wicked One @ May 25 2005, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I must admit, the lol picture, and the video (I dled the 37 meg) was absolutely priceless. I mean, Valve. . Jesus. . Get it together. Lol. I do however, realize with a good custom cfg/isp you can reduce those issues a considerable amount, although they'll never go away completely untill Valve steps up.

    Still rolling on the floor at the video,

    Dave (aka Dave-God/Über-Com) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    As said before, those results in no way indicate performance on REAL servers. Its fine in CS:S, you shoot the guy and it registers. At least for me.
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Members, Constellation
    yeah, it works if you know how to tweak the config.
  • Status_QuoStatus_Quo Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25749Members
    I haven't done squat to my config and it seems to be working fine.
  • RBSRBS Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28209Members
    Sounds like the regular HL netcode.
  • SizerSizer Join Date: 2003-10-08 Member: 21531Members
    CS:S is like the BS hit reg of 1.6, multiplied by ten. Source servers and connections to them tend to lag like hell even without physics objects flying all over the place. It's simply the nature of Source, being the hacked together pile of excrement that it is.
  • CurveCurve Join Date: 2003-12-17 Member: 24475Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I cant actually play CS: Source for some random reason, it just gets uber laggy
  • tuemmykidstuemmykids Join Date: 2003-09-15 Member: 20884Members
    Am I the only one who doesn't have any of the Source hitbox problems? I've tried playing with Bots and turning hitboxes on, yet my shots DO NOT register on the hitbox, just ON THE MODEL. Right when I shoot, the hitbox teleports back to the playermodel...
    If anyone would like a demo of this, I'd be happy to make one, I'll even add some slowmotion so you'll see exactly where I aimed...
  • todd1Oktodd1Ok Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28018Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    "it works if you tweak the config"

    please share with us exactly what we need to tweak to lessen these problems. interp? cmdrate?

    ....gl_max_size? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • meepmeep Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26034Members
    Playing CS:S with a default config, I never seem to have a problem getting plenty of headshots, and I have a crap connection (I ping sub100 to a total of 2 NS servers). So I don't understand what everyone's talking about. And further, I rarely play CS:S, so I doubt I'm compensating for lag like I'm used to doing in NS. But you never know.
  • Steel_MonkeySteel_Monkey Join Date: 2004-10-06 Member: 32121Members
    Yes, the hitboxes are fuxed. My major issue is the entities, like barrels. I despise losing control in any game. I also have a problem with movement, it seems like I get stuck to walls and the floor.

    Somehow half life seems more solid, better constructed almost. I know how to move myself in hl1, but in hl2 it just seems out of control. If anyone else experiences this, let me know.
  • Status_QuoStatus_Quo Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25749Members
    I just created a bot server, and while the hitboxes are not actually on the model, I can shoot and hit just fine aiming for the model. Seems to me like the only bug here is where the hitboxes are displayed, not where they actually are.
  • haymohaymo Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34040Members, NS1 Playtester
    I play CSS at a very high competetive level in australia. After a few weeks of playign you get very used to the hitboxes. And with correct rates, interp, and smooth 0, also cl_lagcomp_errorcheck 1, it helps to increase your hitreg and hitbox accuracy.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin-Sizer+May 25 2005, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sizer @ May 25 2005, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CS:S is like the BS hit reg of 1.6, multiplied by ten. Source servers and connections to them tend to lag like hell even without physics objects flying all over the place. It's simply the nature of Source, being the hacked together pile of excrement that it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yeah, coming from someone who I doubt knows how to code. Cause I'm sure you know that they hacked it together, even though they're the one that created all of the graphics related code, netcode, and tweaked the physcode to all insane degrees. Try knowing what you're talking about. God, hacked together....idiot
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