In a 6v6 game, dropping block nodes is very risky, as they'll have enough skulks to chew them down and eat up your early res pretty fast.
In a 1v1 game, dropping long-distance nodes is essential, as you don't have any other way to build nodes at all.
In a 3v3 game, dropping block nodes is just brutal. The other team won't have hardly any skulks available to chew those nodes, so you don't even have to recycle them at all. Gorges can't kill buildings without bile bomb, so they have no choice but to walk to another node. And in 3v3, giving up 15-30 start res does very little to slow down your economy, meaning you get a huge advantage out of not only slowing down the aliens, but forcing them to build more vulnerable nodes.
Hmm...is there any way to make this tactic relatively fair at all game sizes?
(anything more than 6v6 and the tactic is just pointless, as a proliferation of skulks will destroy your block nodes in record time)
We ought to return the ability to block nodes by egging on them. You take a risk by egging in the open, but at least it gives a way for small-game aliens to fight back against node blocking.
after 3 scrims of obs blocking our nodes last week, we had the gorge egg on the node, AND a skulk jumping up and down on the egg. It still got dropped right through both of them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+May 15 2005, 10:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ May 15 2005, 10:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> after 3 scrims of obs blocking our nodes last week, we had the gorge egg on the node, AND a skulk jumping up and down on the egg. It still got dropped right through both of them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In Season 4, DoM vs bm on minesh!t, I made sure <b>everyone</b> egged on the nozzle. Churro still dropped nodes through the eggs. That was beta 4a.
Its a risky tactic ... drop it and hopefully two skulks aren't around to take it down or drop it and hunt the gorge down. As far as blocking alien res ... it takes 40ish seconds to recycle a RT so the commander is preventing just eight res to the aliens AND if he does get to recycle it he gets 7 (8?) res ... so it is pretty even. What makes it suck is if the marines hunt down the gorge ... there's a wasted 10 res AND no resource tower to get that 10 res back.
So yeah ... I think it is cheap but it is a valid tactic since the res amount cancel each other out. Comm chair blocking is much more "****-like" since a recycled cc is ten res to kill a 75 res upgrade. Bah ... so dumb.
Guys, its not just the node block. Its the node block in combination with a pressure team. It works best on veil imo. You drop the Cargo rt and blitz a pressure team through topo and the dome. Then you also block c12 or overlook depending on their hive, and send your base dudes there after they are done building. Your pressure team will get the node up in cargo about every time, and with the double block, it forces gorges to wait forever, or to head towards double. If skulks are biting the nodes, then they will get picked off by the pressure teams as they come in. The gorges are usually close by, and they go down a lot of the time too. Its not an expensive or risky strat if you do it right, its downright diabolical.
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+May 16 2005, 12:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ May 16 2005, 12:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, its not just the node block. Its the node block in combination with a pressure team. It works best on veil imo. You drop the Cargo rt and blitz a pressure team through topo and the dome. Then you also block c12 or overlook depending on their hive, and send your base dudes there after they are done building. Your pressure team will get the node up in cargo about every time, and with the double block, it forces gorges to wait forever, or to head towards double. If skulks are biting the nodes, then they will get picked off by the pressure teams as they come in. The gorges are usually close by, and they go down a lot of the time too. Its not an expensive or risky strat if you do it right, its downright diabolical. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, let's be realistic here. If your pressure team blitzes a likely alien node and you DROP IT, you forewarn them that you will drop that node. But if your pressure team blitzes that node anyways without dropping it, then the gorge won't suspect anything until it's too late. Even in competitive play, I don't see 2 skulks literally guarding the same room that the gorge is in at the very beginning. They'd try to scout out marine locations.
It's a bit of a gamble, since if you catch the gorge undefended, you can take both the gorge AND the RT and wasting 25 res instead of 10.
But of course, good aliens parasite, but assuming hive is subsector and your team goes via topo, then you might squeeze through.
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+May 13 2005, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ May 13 2005, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I personally don't think it would be that difficult to admin. Perhaps it might be difficult to put into words what someone is not to do, but it's one of those cases where you know it when you see it. I also don't think there would be many disputes at all; it doesn't happen much since most maps aren't conducive to it, and most people don't do it anyway. If there were some sort of wording in CAL or whatever league rules prohibiting it, I think the deterrent would eliminate any problems completely.
Note: if someone did this during a match and it cost my team the round, I would dispute it under CAL rule 8.60: Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player). It's a loose constructionist take on the rule, however, which is why I'd like to see things amended to specifically mention this situation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 3 marines move through keyhole early game. A gorge eggs in southloop vent. The marines are delayed in key outside of south loop. The commander drops the node as the gorge hatches. This leaves the marine team less than 20feet away from the node--they mite even have line of sight. Has the commander illegaly blocked the node? Say there were 4 alien skulks in south loop, the gorge may have dropped the node regardless of the close marines, but he cant.
The marine team mite end up building the node, what if they die?
It is not only 'hard' to make a ruling on such an event it is impossible.
This tactic can be extremely effective--frequently too effective, but a solution lies outside the bounds of a 'rule'.
edit: I remember the first time a team did this to us in a scrim. The next round I dropped a CC on every node they attempted to drop. The alien team never got a node up. The CC block on the node was an almost unstoppable strategy as marine. Blocking with an rt is luckly not as effective, but on specific maps and in specific situations I believe the RT block is still overpowered.
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+May 13 2005, 07:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ May 13 2005, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note: if someone did this during a match and it cost my team the round, I would dispute it under CAL rule 8.60: Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player). It's a loose constructionist take on the rule, however, which is why I'd like to see things amended to specifically mention this situation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if you want to get technical about it then the marines could probably dispute you under the same rule if you were able to block them with an egg on the rt. in my opinion, node blocking is a valid strategy and definately has its tradeoffs. tbh it would take an insanely good comm to node block a good gorge more than once. feel free to dispute me on that but if you do you are wrong. =)
Not going to argue with stuff said here, as I don't play competative NS anymore, but for future reference:
An RT = > 15 res/minute
A marine RT = > 15 res
A return on a recyled marine RT = > 12.5 res (unbuilt)
Recycle time = > 30 seconds
In the 30 seconds of recycle time you would have prevented aliens from gaining 2 res(exactly, at perfect recycle time) and lost 2.5 res yourself. Just from numbers alone, this is a detriment for your team more than theirs, if only by a small ammount.
Uh, you're costing the entire alien pool 7.5, assuming it builds instantly. Minues 10 seconds build time, about 5 res - still a gain technically (although aliens start with a 150 pool).
<!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+May 16 2005, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ May 16 2005, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you want to get technical about it then the marines could probably dispute you under the same rule if you were able to block them with an egg on the rt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> touche!
In regards to homicides comment: Im specificaly talking about an immediate drop and recycle, where there is no obvious attempt to build that node.
<!--QuoteBegin-digz+May 16 2005, 12:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (digz @ May 16 2005, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cerebral+May 16 2005, 07:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cerebral @ May 16 2005, 07:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if you want to get technical about it then the marines could probably dispute you under the same rule if you were able to block them with an egg on the rt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> touche!
In regards to homicides comment: Im specificaly talking about an immediate drop and recycle, where there is no obvious attempt to build that node. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the problem with this whole debate (which the cal admins are trying so delicately to point out) is that there is no feasible way of differentiating between an intentional exploit or an accidental drop and recycle. comm's are allowed to make mistakes too aren't they? =x
When I was a young and stupid comm, sometimes i would drop arms labs instead of meds. I guess through the same mistake you could accidently drop an rt instead of ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin-milosis+May 16 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (milosis @ May 16 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i once dropped an obs on some guy and kille dhim in a previous version.
what happens when the comm drops the rt but DOESNT recycle it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends largely on game size--although since this is the competitive forum, most posters here are going to assume 6v6 game size.
In large game sizes (above 6v6), dropping and not recycling is simply a waste of 15 res, as there will always be enough skulks nearby to destroy the rt and cost you your precious early game res.
In small games sizes (2v2-4v4?) dropping and not recycling takes on an entirely different light. There may not be any skulks nearby at all, and in that case the gorge can either A) walk to another node, which will probably be harder to defend, or B) lose his 10 res by egging back to skulk to chew it down himself (very bad plan), or C) call for a skulk from another part of the map to come back and help him with this node.
In medium games (6v6), there is a fine balance between risk and reward...will they have enough nearby skulks to drop your nodes, costing you 15-30 res for little benefit? Or will you catch them while the skulks are busy/elsewhere, substantially delaying their res expansion, and buying time for your own expansion when field skulks have to run back home?
In a blitzkrieg style strat a skulk wont be able to eat the node(or at least his eating it will be very delayed) and thats when this is an effective strat.
And whoever gave all the statistics left out the cost of going gorge.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
As a side note to the stats, the first 60 seconds of a node being up only generates 14 res, not 15. The minutes following the first generate 15 exactly. It actually takes 68 seconds for a node to repay itself.
You mean 64 right? If at 60 its earned 14 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I will reiterate that this solution completely removes the ability for a 1v1 marine to build RTs. It also hurts the coms ability to drop nodes that HE plans to build in any game with limited manpower.
Comments
You know what?
In a 6v6 game, dropping block nodes is very risky, as they'll have enough skulks to chew them down and eat up your early res pretty fast.
In a 1v1 game, dropping long-distance nodes is essential, as you don't have any other way to build nodes at all.
In a 3v3 game, dropping block nodes is just brutal. The other team won't have hardly any skulks available to chew those nodes, so you don't even have to recycle them at all. Gorges can't kill buildings without bile bomb, so they have no choice but to walk to another node. And in 3v3, giving up 15-30 start res does very little to slow down your economy, meaning you get a huge advantage out of not only slowing down the aliens, but forcing them to build more vulnerable nodes.
Hmm...is there any way to make this tactic relatively fair at all game sizes?
(anything more than 6v6 and the tactic is just pointless, as a proliferation of skulks will destroy your block nodes in record time)
We ought to return the ability to block nodes by egging on them. You take a risk by egging in the open, but at least it gives a way for small-game aliens to fight back against node blocking.
In Season 4, DoM vs bm on minesh!t, I made sure <b>everyone</b> egged on the nozzle. Churro still dropped nodes through the eggs. That was beta 4a.
So yeah ... I think it is cheap but it is a valid tactic since the res amount cancel each other out. Comm chair blocking is much more "****-like" since a recycled cc is ten res to kill a 75 res upgrade. Bah ... so dumb.
Well, let's be realistic here. If your pressure team blitzes a likely alien node and you DROP IT, you forewarn them that you will drop that node. But if your pressure team blitzes that node anyways without dropping it, then the gorge won't suspect anything until it's too late. Even in competitive play, I don't see 2 skulks literally guarding the same room that the gorge is in at the very beginning. They'd try to scout out marine locations.
It's a bit of a gamble, since if you catch the gorge undefended, you can take both the gorge AND the RT and wasting 25 res instead of 10.
But of course, good aliens parasite, but assuming hive is subsector and your team goes via topo, then you might squeeze through.
Note: if someone did this during a match and it cost my team the round, I would dispute it under CAL rule 8.60: Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player). It's a loose constructionist take on the rule, however, which is why I'd like to see things amended to specifically mention this situation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3 marines move through keyhole early game. A gorge eggs in southloop vent. The marines are delayed in key outside of south loop.
The commander drops the node as the gorge hatches. This leaves the marine team less than 20feet away from the node--they mite even have line of sight.
Has the commander illegaly blocked the node? Say there were 4 alien skulks in south loop, the gorge may have dropped the node regardless of the close marines, but he cant.
The marine team mite end up building the node, what if they die?
It is not only 'hard' to make a ruling on such an event it is impossible.
This tactic can be extremely effective--frequently too effective, but a solution lies outside the bounds of a 'rule'.
edit: I remember the first time a team did this to us in a scrim. The next round I dropped a CC on every node they attempted to drop. The alien team never got a node up. The CC block on the node was an almost unstoppable strategy as marine. Blocking with an rt is luckly not as effective, but on specific maps and in specific situations I believe the RT block is still overpowered.
if you want to get technical about it then the marines could probably dispute you under the same rule if you were able to block them with an egg on the rt. in my opinion, node blocking is a valid strategy and definately has its tradeoffs. tbh it would take an insanely good comm to node block a good gorge more than once. feel free to dispute me on that but if you do you are wrong. =)
An RT = > 15 res/minute
A marine RT = > 15 res
A return on a recyled marine RT = > 12.5 res (unbuilt)
Recycle time = > 30 seconds
In the 30 seconds of recycle time you would have prevented aliens from gaining 2 res(exactly, at perfect recycle time) and lost 2.5 res yourself. Just from numbers alone, this is a detriment for your team more than theirs, if only by a small ammount.
--edited to add (unbuilt) and a missing 1--
touche!
In regards to homicides comment: Im specificaly talking about an immediate drop and recycle, where there is no obvious attempt to build that node.
touche!
In regards to homicides comment: Im specificaly talking about an immediate drop and recycle, where there is no obvious attempt to build that node. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem with this whole debate (which the cal admins are trying so delicately to point out) is that there is no feasible way of differentiating between an intentional exploit or an accidental drop and recycle. comm's are allowed to make mistakes too aren't they? =x
what happens when the comm drops the rt but DOESNT recycle it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends largely on game size--although since this is the competitive forum, most posters here are going to assume 6v6 game size.
In large game sizes (above 6v6), dropping and not recycling is simply a waste of 15 res, as there will always be enough skulks nearby to destroy the rt and cost you your precious early game res.
In small games sizes (2v2-4v4?) dropping and not recycling takes on an entirely different light. There may not be any skulks nearby at all, and in that case the gorge can either A) walk to another node, which will probably be harder to defend, or B) lose his 10 res by egging back to skulk to chew it down himself (very bad plan), or C) call for a skulk from another part of the map to come back and help him with this node.
In medium games (6v6), there is a fine balance between risk and reward...will they have enough nearby skulks to drop your nodes, costing you 15-30 res for little benefit? Or will you catch them while the skulks are busy/elsewhere, substantially delaying their res expansion, and buying time for your own expansion when field skulks have to run back home?
And whoever gave all the statistics left out the cost of going gorge.