Node Blocking
digz
be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">via the RT drop + recycle</div> This is concerning the node "drop and recycle" in the first few seconds of the game to block a node from being droped by the alien team. Considering there is no realistic way to block the comm from droping the node (putting a skulk body or egging on the node still wont stop the rt from being placed there), should this be a valid tactic, or is it an exploit that should be removed from the game (not talking the how, just hypotheticly)?
What are your thoughts on this?
What are your thoughts on this?
Comments
I don't know these numbers, and I haven't experienced node blocking much, so I can't comment without getting these numbers first <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Heres the thing, playing in a scrim/match that tactic takes away from either: dropping that node for a period of time and starving for res because of it OR taking away your teams scouting/early marine movement counter due to taking the time to chomp that node (and hopefully the gorge drops its node before the comm decides to redrop and recycle the old).
I think it is cheap, but needs some sort of "counter" like blocking the rt from droping if a body is on the node.
[edit] for the record I have no clue on what kind of a role this strat plays in compeditive NS, but it is fairly easy to learn how to do/use.
Say if the aliens start with CC, you drop an rt in PSJ and rush with 3 marines to EC.
This means you have either forced the aliens to drop 1 rt on either side of CC (effectively forcing the aliens to split forces to defend their RTs), or you have an easier time to rush eclipse or SL to take down the other RT since at least 1 skulk will be tied up biting that RT you dropped in PSJ.
I dont know, Ive done this several times (egging on node) and the comm still droped the rt. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I dont know, Ive done this several times (egging on node) and the comm still droped the rt. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This used to work, but at some point it stopped working. In testing, we have been unable to stop the comm from dropping a node.
I dont know, Ive done this several times (egging on node) and the comm still droped the rt. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This used to work, but at some point it stopped working. In testing, we have been unable to stop the comm from dropping a node. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In beta 4a, it was made possible to drop resource towers on nodes even if they were blocked. This was done, if I recall correctly, to fix a bug in Ayumi where certain resource nodes were unusable.
I personally don't think it would be that difficult to admin. Perhaps it might be difficult to put into words what someone is not to do, but it's one of those cases where you know it when you see it. I also don't think there would be many disputes at all; it doesn't happen much since most maps aren't conducive to it, and most people don't do it anyway. If there were some sort of wording in CAL or whatever league rules prohibiting it, I think the deterrent would eliminate any problems completely.
Note: if someone did this during a match and it cost my team the round, I would dispute it under CAL rule 8.60: Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player). It's a loose constructionist take on the rule, however, which is why I'd like to see things amended to specifically mention this situation.
I personally don't think it would be that difficult to admin. Perhaps it might be difficult to put into words what someone is not to do, but it's one of those cases where you know it when you see it. I also don't think there would be many disputes at all; it doesn't happen much since most maps aren't conducive to it, and most people don't do it anyway. If there were some sort of wording in CAL or whatever league rules prohibiting it, I think the deterrent would eliminate any problems completely.
Note: if someone did this during a match and it cost my team the round, I would dispute it under CAL rule 8.60: Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player). It's a loose constructionist take on the rule, however, which is why I'd like to see things amended to specifically mention this situation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If done expertly you can keep the aliens at one node all game.
Coms can listen for gestating gorges, and drop a node on thier node then either hot key it or instantly recycle and hotkey it. Remember which nodes correspond to which hot keys and then just drop and recycle a new node every time an old one finishes (since the icon dissapears when a structure compleats recycling).
It takes a good 3 skulks concentrating on a node all together to take it out before it recycles unless they really go hardcore on it and sit thier waiting for you to drop and start a new one so 2 can attack it together.
If you don't let the skulks get any kills the earliest the aliens can put up a hive or go first fade is 6 mins. Which any good player can tell you is WAY too late. even if the marines get a slower upgrade and tech game, with no aliens getting nodes they are screwed. The best thing is, fades in this style game can't even acctually take nodes for the aliens, the best they can do is push the marines farther back and force the com to drop/recycle a greater precentage of nodes.
Basicly if a really good comm acctually does this the aliens get to wait to die all game.
Coms can listen for gestating gorges, and drop a node on thier node then either hot key it or instantly recycle and hotkey it. Remember which nodes correspond to which hot keys and then just drop and recycle a new node every time an old one finishes (since the icon dissapears when a structure compleats recycling).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the gorge binds a key to building an RT, it is not terribly hard to slip the alien RT in before the comm drops a new one. If the comm is merely watching the hotkeyed item in the HUD and not watching the node directly, it is trivial for the gorge to drop a node when the marine RT finishes recycling.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a good 3 skulks concentrating on a node all together to take it out before it recycles unless they really go hardcore on it and sit thier waiting for you to drop and start a new one so 2 can attack it together.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, no. It takes one skulk to get on it as soon as it is dropped to eat it before it finishes recycling. Recall that just-dropped buildings have half the HP of finished buildings. Try testing it sometime. For many nodes, skulk defense positions are close enough that one will be handy to do this. For others, it is not too hard to guess that the marines will drop a new RT after the current one and pull a skulk back to cost the marines 15 of their starting res the next time they try to drop one.
Against experienced players, node-blocking buys a bit of time. That's all. The above quotes are good examples of why node-blocking is more painful for inexperienced players. I have blocked nodes against a fair number of clans, and rarely get to drop the same node twice against experienced ones (no offense meant to those who were blocked multiple times; it's just that players who haven't dealt with node-blocking before tend to react to it rather poorly). The ones that I have managed to drop twice I imagine the aliens let go on purpose, as they were quickly chomped down, costing us much of our starting res.
Node-blocking delays the building of alien RTs, forces the aliens to be vulnerable by keeping their gorges in the field (and hence keeping the team at fewer skulks) for longer, allows marines to reach the node before the gorge can drop the RT. On the other hand, it requires a fair bit of attention from the comm (though I hope that most comms can handle it) and makes it very easy for the aliens to take out a fair chunk of the marine's starting res.
Yes, it is annoying to be node-blocked. Node-blocking costs 15 of the marines' already-stretched 100 starting res. For that much, the marines could send out a shotgun, which, with the 5 res left over (RT is 15, shotgun is 10), would likely generate enough RFK to pay for a second shotgun. Do you think node-blocking is comparable in damage to the aliens to two early shotguns?
I haven't seen any "stuck inside a building" problems in a long time now, but I guess they could exist.
Edit: New strategy! Force an Onos to fight near an empty RT node, then drop the RT on it when it walks by! /Stuck FTW! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's something that good comms could certainly use (if feeling 'lame') but I think average comms would struggle as early game comming and res management can be tough as it is.
Coms can listen for gestating gorges, and drop a node on thier node then either hot key it or instantly recycle and hotkey it. Remember which nodes correspond to which hot keys and then just drop and recycle a new node every time an old one finishes (since the icon dissapears when a structure compleats recycling).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the gorge binds a key to building an RT, it is not terribly hard to slip the alien RT in before the comm drops a new one. If the comm is merely watching the hotkeyed item in the HUD and not watching the node directly, it is trivial for the gorge to drop a node when the marine RT finishes recycling.
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Most gorges when they realize you've node blocked on them run somewhere else. If you node block on thier next node they soon get the picture. At that point some just sit and wait for you to finish recycling so they can drop a node, but you can be tricky and not instantly recycle every node either. If you start recycling at the same time the node starts to be bitten it will not go down to one skulk. I haven't done the math of it, but I have played the situation many times in game before.
If you can force a gorge to sit idly by a node and wait for it to recycle, chances are you can get a rine there and cap yourself a gorgie. Forces aliens to wait signifigantly longer to reskulk, and pushes early fade and early hive signifigantly later into the game. Of course a good alien team will just start working together to take the nodes near thier hive properly, but by that time you're more then caught up from your normal expansion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a good 3 skulks concentrating on a node all together to take it out before it recycles unless they really go hardcore on it and sit thier waiting for you to drop and start a new one so 2 can attack it together.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, no. It takes one skulk to get on it as soon as it is dropped to eat it before it finishes recycling. Recall that just-dropped buildings have half the HP of finished buildings. Try testing it sometime. For many nodes, skulk defense positions are close enough that one will be handy to do this. For others, it is not too hard to guess that the marines will drop a new RT after the current one and pull a skulk back to cost the marines 15 of their starting res the next time they try to drop one.
Against experienced players, node-blocking buys a bit of time. That's all. The above quotes are good examples of why node-blocking is more painful for inexperienced players. I have blocked nodes against a fair number of clans, and rarely get to drop the same node twice against experienced ones (no offense meant to those who were blocked multiple times; it's just that players who haven't dealt with node-blocking before tend to react to it rather poorly). The ones that I have managed to drop twice I imagine the aliens let go on purpose, as they were quickly chomped down, costing us much of our starting res.
Node-blocking delays the building of alien RTs, forces the aliens to be vulnerable by keeping their gorges in the field (and hence keeping the team at fewer skulks) for longer, allows marines to reach the node before the gorge can drop the RT. On the other hand, it requires a fair bit of attention from the comm (though I hope that most comms can handle it) and makes it very easy for the aliens to take out a fair chunk of the marine's starting res.
Yes, it is annoying to be node-blocked. Node-blocking costs 15 of the marines' already-stretched 100 starting res. For that much, the marines could send out a shotgun, which, with the 5 res left over (RT is 15, shotgun is 10), would likely generate enough RFK to pay for a second shotgun. Do you think node-blocking is comparable in damage to the aliens to two early shotguns?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A node that is recycled costs 4 res, so you get 4 node blocks for the price of two early shotguns. IMO that does more damage then two early shotties ever could. Fades come out 1-2 minutes later, as does hive 2, and you get a boost in your initial res expansion because gorges take longer to reskulk. If you acctually manage to kill a gorge or two, you seriously start to screw over the aliens. by 2 minutes your blocked nodes have more then paid for themselfs, and you didn't have any marines poncing around in base waiting for L0 shottys.
Its still risky because like you say, if the nodes do get chomped down 15 res is ALOT to lose in the early game for a node that was never active. But on the other side that is a full ~30 seconds you didn't have to deal with 2 skulks elsewhere...
Perhaps change to:
"Any action that bypasses a game design decision ( e.g. blocking a resource point with a structure other than an RT within x units of a Marine at the time of dropping, blocking an elevator with either a structure or player)"
I don't know whether all Commanders are forced to demo in CAL, or whether HLTV would clearly show the distance to the nearest 'rine, but if not you could still change 'x' to a suitable amount which would leave no doubt as to whether someone was deliberately trying this tactic or not. If it was an amount that meant that a Commander could not drop an RT in this area within the first 15-20 seconds of a game because a 'rine could not physically be within range, then it might sort the problem.
This is merely because they lack experience with it.
First, for many nodes, a skulk will already be handy to eat the node down, costing the marines 15 res. If there is no skulk around, then the gorge (obviously) needs to wait for the node to finish recycling. He then has two options. He could have had a skulk come over in the meantime, waiting to eat the node on its second drop, costing the marines a precious 15 res, or he can use his build rt bind to drop the node before the comm drops it again.
Running to the next node is rarely a viable response to a node block, as aliens are generally already pushing the limits of map area they can cover, and going to an even further node is an almost-guaranteed waste of 25 res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you start recycling at the same time the node starts to be bitten it will not go down to one skulk. I haven't done the math of it, but I have played the situation many times in game before.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Go test it. It only takes two people. If the skulk starts biting the instant the node starts recycling, the node will die with 2-3 bars left on the recycle. Your claim is probably due to attempts either to eat nodes that marines have built a little, or to a little delay in biting after the recycle starts, or not starting with near-full energy. For a single skulk to take out a recycling node, he has little time to start biting, and if the node has a small amount of extra health from being built some, then the skulk cannot finish in time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you can force a gorge to sit idly by a node and wait for it to recycle, chances are you can get a rine there and cap yourself a gorgie.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For most nodes, gorges can gestate safely in the vent, and do not need to expose themselves if the node is blocked. In addition, if your skulks are letting any decent number of marines get to the node in that time, then it is quite possible that the marines would be able to take the node out anyway. Node-blocking requires marine pressure to be effective. Without marines pushing on the blocked node, the only effect of the node block is to delay the alien RT by 20 seconds. If marines do this to one node, this costs the alien team 5 res. That is just under 1 res per player. If the marines do this to two nodes, this costs the aliens 10 res. Without marines pushing on the nodes, this barely has a higher net cost for aliens than marines, and it makes the marines really strapped for res in the early game. In addition, it announces to the aliens where the marines will be going, and provides excellent cover for skulks (unbuilt marine RTs cause the death of many frontiersmen).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A node that is recycled costs 4 res, so you get 4 node blocks for the price of two early shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, a recycled node has a net cost of 3 res, but that's not terribly important. Examining net cost does not tell the full story. Being short that res in the early game comes at a cost. This is simple economics. Having res early is better than having res late.
Just as the alien game gets delayed by the nodes going up late, the marine game gets delayed. IP + armory costs 30. AL/A1 costs 40. That leaves 30 of the marines' starting 100 res. If you block two nodes, that leaves you unable to drop any RTs for yourself. If you block one, you can only drop one node until about the 1:20 mark. Every 15 res you spend on blocking nodes is 15 res you can't spend capping your own. Recall that the starting res also goes towards meds and ammo for your pressure team. Marines can make the res situation a little less tight by skipping A1, but this makes pressure tough, and delays the marine game in a different manner.
I think that most of the trouble caused by node-blocking comes from simple inexperience. As my fellow NS players here have been so kind to demonstrate, the immediate reaction by a new player to a blocked node causes more damage than the simple fact of the node ever could.
I'm not claiming that node-blocking is a bad strategic decision for marines. I'm just trying to point out the many aspects of it overlooked by some of its opponents.
Since CAL doesn't support 1v1 games anyway, that means any CAL changes to handle node-blocking are just fine. NS code changes are more risky.