Should 3rd Hives Be "i Win!" ?
Gecko_God_Of_Dooom
Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
I would like to see the overal opinion on balance conserning the 3rd hive.
The question is:
If you could tweak the balance any way, should the marine stand a chance when the aliens get all 3 hives up?
In other words, if you could some how only buff the late game of marines to make it so that marine stand a fair chance against 3rd hive aliens if they research EVERYTHING. As I already understand it, Marines Winning against 3 hive aliens is a long shot. But im asking if you could change it, what would it be.
(please note this is conserning competitive play only. In pubs there is too much unorginization on both sides usualy to have stable games.)
The question is:
If you could tweak the balance any way, should the marine stand a chance when the aliens get all 3 hives up?
In other words, if you could some how only buff the late game of marines to make it so that marine stand a fair chance against 3rd hive aliens if they research EVERYTHING. As I already understand it, Marines Winning against 3 hive aliens is a long shot. But im asking if you could change it, what would it be.
(please note this is conserning competitive play only. In pubs there is too much unorginization on both sides usualy to have stable games.)
Comments
Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying.
All in all 3 hives = aliens should win. But if I had to choose which version of NS we should go back to is Beta 5 because that version rocked so hard.
And during 2nd hive up, marines still have a 50/50 chance of winning with a AA 2/2 upgrades. right when the 2nd hive finishes building, and 5 rez nodes.
Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying.
All in all 3 hives = aliens should win. But if I had to choose which version of NS we should go back to is Beta 5 because that version rocked so hard. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what i would've said :<
Edit: marines getting three hives refering to they killed all hives =O
I have to agree,
3rd Hive is the final tech for the aliens much like A3, W3 + proto is for marines.
At this point in game each side should be equal and the greater team should win. Now if the alien team reaches 3rd hive before marines get to that point then aliens should win.
I believe that if aliens get a 3rd hive before Proto/W3/A3, they should win. They've hit third tier tech. Remember that NS from the origin wasn't a 'two teams' scenario, but rather the marines were attacking to get the aliens out of the spacecraft/installation/whatever. I imagine that should the 'infestation' reach such mass that 3 hives are active, the marines should requite a incredibly skillful <b>and</b> tactically sound plan to succeed.
This encourages marine aggression, which can only be a good thing when you consider that marines are ranged whilst aliens aren't. The marines have to know that from 0:01 onwards, they're on a timer to succeed. It also means less stalemates which lead to quit games and matches that take far too long to resolve. If you mess up, you die. Such is Natural Selection. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- Shockwave
I think it should be pretty much "instant" win.
I think it should be pretty much "instant" win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly what I was about to say... 3 hives means map and most likely RT control
2-Hives shouldn't even be close to instant win. 2-Hives vs mid-high marine tech with res parity should be an even battle. (say, 2/2 ups with MT, AA, but no proto yet.)
So marine top tech should be somewhere in between 2 Hives and 3 Hives in effectiveness. Maybe comparable to 2-Hive aliens who've picked up their 3rd upgrade from a lost hive? Somewhere around there.
That way, it gives the marines some modivation or other to kill a hive. Once and if they kill 1 of the 3 hives, a timer for the aliens starts (announced to both teams) that they now have # minutes to finish the marines off. if they dont...marines win.
This idea ends some of these long on-goin games that just are 50%-50% for both sides.
(with some tweaks here and there). Although, This does sound like it would be better as a plugin more then an addon to the game.
In competitive, It is possible to overcome, but your chances are slim. I would say you need around 4-5 res nodes, and 3 Heavy Armors, and 2 Jetpack support to win. Have all the heavies have hmgs, 1 jp with a gl, and 1 with a shotgun/ hmg.
If they all stick together, and keep eachother welded, and healthy, then you might be able to come back.
Usually when three hives are up, the marines have 1-3 res nodes, and either JP, or HA. So if their resflow is good, and they have both techs, then its possible.
I have seen it happen in a scrimm ONCE lol....
That way, it gives the marines some modivation or other to kill a hive. Once and if they kill 1 of the 3 hives, a timer for the aliens starts (announced to both teams) that they now have # minutes to finish the marines off. if they dont...marines win.
This idea ends some of these long on-goin games that just are 50%-50% for both sides.
(with some tweaks here and there). Although, This does sound like it would be better as a plugin more then an addon to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah. People already complain that there are no more "epic" games, and there are quite a few people that despise the timer in co_ maps.
I think it's the co_ games that get some sort of infestation mindset across, at least to me, in the sense that the marines have to wipe out the infestation - within a certain time limit - before it grows too large for containment. I always hear players talking about the time limit, rushing out the door as fast as they can, without humping the armory too much - and this is kind of what I want to see in ns_, except with more organization. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think marines should have a chance - if they all work together to wipe out the threat, so to speak. They need some minimum level of tech (pg+jp, ha train, whatever) and the res to suit up, and then move out - as a team - and cut a path clear, ultimately leading in taking down a hive. I've seen it work and it CAN happen, they just need sufficient resources and teamwork. And that's how it should be, at least to me.
How right you are.
Also I think that 3 Hives should ALMOST guarente aliens victory but marines should still have some kinda hope to coming back but not much at all. Otherwise when they got 3 hives, then whats the point of even continuing? Kinda like now. Its no fun at that point since you know you have no chance of winning so the team just gives up and runs all over.
You sure as hell picked the wrong game then.
You sure as hell picked the wrong game then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol what?
You sure as hell picked the wrong game then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol banned
If I was playing an RTS and I had three town halls to your one, would <b>you</b> expect to win then?
Aliens had 3 hives and almst all resnodes, rines got a heavy train and kill one hive, leaving marine spawn unprotected.
Marine Spawn dies while the HA train kills the other 2 hives.
You see a lot of onoses die in marine spawn by the ping of death.
Game 2:
Aliens had 3 hives and all resnodes, marines "just" have marine spawn, full upgrades and 15 ips, Onoses and walls of lame died like flies in continuous light marine rushes, game last 90 more minutes, aliens tried their best with all lifeform abilities, and could still be won my both sides, aliens won.
Aliens had 3 hives and almst all resnodes, rines got a heavy train and kill one hive, leaving marine spawn unprotected.
Marine Spawn dies while the HA train kills the other 2 hives.
You see a lot of onoses die in marine spawn by the ping of death.
Game 2:
Aliens had 3 hives and all resnodes, marines "just" have marine spawn, full upgrades and 15 ips, Onoses and walls of lame died like flies in continuous light marine rushes, game last 90 more minutes, aliens tried their best with all lifeform abilities, and could still be won my both sides, aliens won. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, in both instances you've given an example where people who aren't very competent couldn't finish the game with overwhelming odds.
How does this relate?
However, even discounting the relatively huge power jump the Aliens get when going from 1 Hive to 2 Hives, and the relatively minor boost they get from 2 Hives to Three, there is a pretty fundamental problem with the idea that both teams at full tech should be an even match, and I think Grendel is alluding to it. In order for the Aliens to get to the point where they hold 3 hives, on nearly every map they probably also control 5-6 res nodes just by holding the ones from inside and surrounding the Hives, plus as powerful as they are they can pretty much take out the nodes the Marine do hold with minimal difficulty. So by the time there is a third hive, the Marines probably only hold 1 or 2 nodes, and the Aliens probably hold more then 6. Unless the Marines have done a genius job of managing their res, they are not going to be able to afford the equipment they would need to stop the fully teched Aliens (and that's assuming that in the grand scheme of things both teams at their top tier really are roughly equal). And it seems unlikely that a team that has managed to let the Aliens take all 3 hives are doing a genius job of anything.
The only version I can remember where games of Classic frequently ended in 3 Hive vs HA Train bludgeonings was in 3.0Beta1 when Fades were still at 250/100 Health/Armor wise, and therefore were almost entirely taken out of the game. As I remember it Marines had a huge advantage, but in games where the Aliens would play smart, and could get up 3 hives very quickly, things would frequently end up being decided with Onos and Heavy Armor facing off, and in that case the Marines still seemed to have a 50/50 shot of winning.
I think it'd be cool if 3 hives (or even 2, if you want to be cynical about it) didn't almost always guarantee an Alien win, but I think for reasons stated above it'd be very difficult to get to that state.