Should 3rd Hives Be "i Win!" ?

Gecko_God_Of_DooomGecko_God_Of_Dooom Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
edited May 2005 in NS General Discussion
I would like to see the overal opinion on balance conserning the 3rd hive.


The question is:

If you could tweak the balance any way, should the marine stand a chance when the aliens get all 3 hives up?

In other words, if you could some how only buff the late game of marines to make it so that marine stand a fair chance against 3rd hive aliens if they research EVERYTHING. As I already understand it, Marines Winning against 3 hive aliens is a long shot. But im asking if you could change it, what would it be.

(please note this is conserning competitive play only. In pubs there is too much unorginization on both sides usualy to have stable games.)
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Comments

  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members
    Honestly to save me a lot of typing i'll say that Beta 5 was pretty damn balanced. 2 hives aliens it was "Okay, Marines have a chance but they gotta work a bit harder now to achieve that win." 3 hives it was bow down and pray you can hopefully push out with full tech.

    Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying.

    All in all 3 hives = aliens should win. But if I had to choose which version of NS we should go back to is Beta 5 because that version rocked so hard.
  • Gecko_God_Of_DooomGecko_God_Of_Dooom Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26353Members
    I would personaly like to see it where Aliens Should win at 3rd hive, 75% of the time against full marine tech.

    And during 2nd hive up, marines still have a 50/50 chance of winning with a AA 2/2 upgrades. right when the 2nd hive finishes building, and 5 rez nodes.
  • AndervalAnderval <3 Join Date: 2003-05-05 Member: 16073Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+May 11 2005, 01:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ May 11 2005, 01:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly to save me a lot of typing i'll say that Beta 5 was pretty damn balanced. 2 hives aliens it was "Okay, Marines have a chance but they gotta work a bit harder now to achieve that win." 3 hives it was bow down and pray you can hopefully push out with full tech.

    Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying.

    All in all 3 hives = aliens should win. But if I had to choose which version of NS we should go back to is Beta 5 because that version rocked so hard. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    what i would've said :<
  • Jmmsbnd007Jmmsbnd007 Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9793Banned, Constellation
    2 hives in beta 5 was still rapesauce unless the marines had prototech. As for the original question, I think it should be as skill-based as possible.
  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members
    It still wasn't as bad as NS Final 3.0 though. Atleast Marines had a half chance to win now it is extremely hard to even come close to winning now. AND DONT DENY IT
  • AnbuAnbu Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33008Members
    edited May 2005
    IMO, 3 hives should be win for aliens. cause, i mean if the marines got 3 hives it's like HMG vs blinkless fade. should be the same for aliens as well

    Edit: marines getting three hives refering to they killed all hives =O
  • GoDlolGoDlol Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33703Members
    duo even when you have the game won as a marine it is really hard to end it, which sucks
  • DuoGodOfDeathDuoGodOfDeath Join Date: 2002-08-01 Member: 1044Members
    True God, true. CAL should go back to Beta 5 D:
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 10 2005, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 10 2005, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2 hives in beta 5 was still rapesauce unless the marines had prototech. As for the original question, I think it should be as skill-based as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I have to agree,

    3rd Hive is the final tech for the aliens much like A3, W3 + proto is for marines.

    At this point in game each side should be equal and the greater team should win. Now if the alien team reaches 3rd hive before marines get to that point then aliens should win.
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    The aliens need to be focused on expanding which primarily forces them into a semi defensive mode. Its harder for aliens to be aggressive before they have an overwhelming bias.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Indeed. Part of the 'problem' comes because in a weird way, aliens are actually the lesser-mobile species.

    I believe that if aliens get a 3rd hive before Proto/W3/A3, they should win. They've hit third tier tech. Remember that NS from the origin wasn't a 'two teams' scenario, but rather the marines were attacking to get the aliens out of the spacecraft/installation/whatever. I imagine that should the 'infestation' reach such mass that 3 hives are active, the marines should requite a incredibly skillful <b>and</b> tactically sound plan to succeed.

    This encourages marine aggression, which can only be a good thing when you consider that marines are ranged whilst aliens aren't. The marines have to know that from 0:01 onwards, they're on a timer to succeed. It also means less stalemates which lead to quit games and matches that take far too long to resolve. If you mess up, you die. Such is Natural Selection. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    - Shockwave
  • surprisesurprise Join Date: 2003-01-16 Member: 12382Members, Constellation
    hehe nicely put, that made it in my sig if you dont mind <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Diablo_fxDiablo_fx Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13793Members
    3 hives means 75% map control or general sneakyness or bad commander(for not checking hives)

    I think it should be pretty much "instant" win.
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Diablo fx+May 11 2005, 01:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablo fx @ May 11 2005, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3 hives means 75% map control or general sneakyness or bad commander(for not checking hives)

    I think it should be pretty much "instant" win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    exactly what I was about to say... 3 hives means map and most likely RT control
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    3-Hives should be better than anything marines have--but not quite instant win. Marines at top tech should be able to put up a fight, but should require a substantial res advantage to really have much shot at winning.

    2-Hives shouldn't even be close to instant win. 2-Hives vs mid-high marine tech with res parity should be an even battle. (say, 2/2 ups with MT, AA, but no proto yet.)

    So marine top tech should be somewhere in between 2 Hives and 3 Hives in effectiveness. Maybe comparable to 2-Hive aliens who've picked up their 3rd upgrade from a lost hive? Somewhere around there.
  • TwistedXTwistedX Join Date: 2004-10-01 Member: 32042Members
    edited May 2005
    What about once 3 hives are up, an announcment is made (to both teams) that says there is # minutes till the aliens automaticly win.

    That way, it gives the marines some modivation or other to kill a hive. Once and if they kill 1 of the 3 hives, a timer for the aliens starts (announced to both teams) that they now have # minutes to finish the marines off. if they dont...marines win.

    This idea ends some of these long on-goin games that just are 50%-50% for both sides.
    (with some tweaks here and there). Although, This does sound like it would be better as a plugin more then an addon to the game.
  • digzdigz be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I dont see how this belongs in comp discus... moved to general.
  • xtcmenxtcmen Join Date: 2004-04-20 Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2005
    Well, in pubs, anything can happen.

    In competitive, It is possible to overcome, but your chances are slim. I would say you need around 4-5 res nodes, and 3 Heavy Armors, and 2 Jetpack support to win. Have all the heavies have hmgs, 1 jp with a gl, and 1 with a shotgun/ hmg.

    If they all stick together, and keep eachother welded, and healthy, then you might be able to come back.


    Usually when three hives are up, the marines have 1-3 res nodes, and either JP, or HA. So if their resflow is good, and they have both techs, then its possible.

    I have seen it happen in a scrimm ONCE lol....
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-TwistedX+May 11 2005, 06:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TwistedX @ May 11 2005, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about once 3 hives are up, an announcment is made (to both teams) that says there is # minutes till the aliens automaticly win.

    That way, it gives the marines some modivation or other to kill a hive. Once and if they kill 1 of the 3 hives, a timer for the aliens starts (announced to both teams) that they now have # minutes to finish the marines off. if they dont...marines win.

    This idea ends some of these long on-goin games that just are 50%-50% for both sides.
    (with some tweaks here and there). Although, This does sound like it would be better as a plugin more then an addon to the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nah. People already complain that there are no more "epic" games, and there are quite a few people that despise the timer in co_ maps.
  • torquetorque Join Date: 2003-08-20 Member: 20035Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Shockwave really said it best, I think.

    I think it's the co_ games that get some sort of infestation mindset across, at least to me, in the sense that the marines have to wipe out the infestation - within a certain time limit - before it grows too large for containment. I always hear players talking about the time limit, rushing out the door as fast as they can, without humping the armory too much - and this is kind of what I want to see in ns_, except with more organization. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    I think marines should have a chance - if they all work together to wipe out the threat, so to speak. They need some minimum level of tech (pg+jp, ha train, whatever) and the res to suit up, and then move out - as a team - and cut a path clear, ultimately leading in taking down a hive. I've seen it work and it CAN happen, they just need sufficient resources and teamwork. And that's how it should be, at least to me.
  • TheGivingTreeTheGivingTree Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12070Members
    edited May 2005
    "Now we have NS final 3. Where 2 hives it is like having 3 hives in Beta 5. It just doesnt cut it and its really annoying."

    How right you are.

    Also I think that 3 Hives should ALMOST guarente aliens victory but marines should still have some kinda hope to coming back but not much at all. Otherwise when they got 3 hives, then whats the point of even continuing? Kinda like now. Its no fun at that point since you know you have no chance of winning so the team just gives up and runs all over.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    In 3.0F, 3 hives more or less already means an alien victory, unless they get sloppy and/or the marines pull a miracle comeback. I think that's how it should be. From a story perspective, the presence of 3 hives means that the marines have utterly failed at their primary objective of containing the alien threat. Even full tech marines should not be able to match up if you ask me, because possession of all hives requires map control. Marines only have to defend one area to maintain their upgrades, and the Adv. Armory is the only thing that actually has to be re-researched if it's lost. 3 hive dominance is one of the most effective methods of forcing aggressive marine play, much like the time limit in Combat.
  • KingOfCloudsKingOfClouds Join Date: 2005-05-02 Member: 50710Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 10 2005, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 10 2005, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it should be as skill-based as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You sure as hell picked the wrong game then.
  • Jmmsbnd007Jmmsbnd007 Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9793Banned, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-KingOfClouds+May 11 2005, 09:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KingOfClouds @ May 11 2005, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 10 2005, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 10 2005, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it should be as skill-based as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You sure as hell picked the wrong game then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    lol what?
  • dhakbardhakbar Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30305Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-KingOfClouds+May 11 2005, 09:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KingOfClouds @ May 11 2005, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 10 2005, 09:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 10 2005, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think it should be as skill-based as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You sure as hell picked the wrong game then. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    lol banned
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    In answer to the original question...

    If I was playing an RTS and I had three town halls to your one, would <b>you</b> expect to win then?
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    Game 1:
    Aliens had 3 hives and almst all resnodes, rines got a heavy train and kill one hive, leaving marine spawn unprotected.
    Marine Spawn dies while the HA train kills the other 2 hives.
    You see a lot of onoses die in marine spawn by the ping of death.

    Game 2:
    Aliens had 3 hives and all resnodes, marines "just" have marine spawn, full upgrades and 15 ips, Onoses and walls of lame died like flies in continuous light marine rushes, game last 90 more minutes, aliens tried their best with all lifeform abilities, and could still be won my both sides, aliens won.
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    <!--QuoteBegin-Ollj+May 12 2005, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ May 12 2005, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Game 1:
    Aliens had 3 hives and almst all resnodes, rines got a heavy train and kill one hive, leaving marine spawn unprotected.
    Marine Spawn dies while the HA train kills the other 2 hives.
    You see a lot of onoses die in marine spawn by the ping of death.

    Game 2:
    Aliens had 3 hives and all resnodes, marines "just" have marine spawn, full upgrades and 15 ips, Onoses and walls of lame died like flies in continuous light marine rushes, game last 90 more minutes, aliens tried their best with all lifeform abilities, and could still be won my both sides, aliens won. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So, in both instances you've given an example where people who aren't very competent couldn't finish the game with overwhelming odds.

    How does this relate?
  • JazzXJazzX cl_labelmaps ∞ Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9285Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    I believe, as per "original" concept and design, teams that are both at full tech should be a roughly equal match for each other; Aliens that would be 3 Hives, 3 Chamber Types, plentiful Fades and Onos (plentiful but not necessarily every player on the Alien side, nor instantly replaceable at death); and for Marines it'd be Level 3 Weapons and Armor, with at least one Prototype upgrade researched, and with the Res Flow to be equipping the entire team with HA/JP, a Shotgun/GL/HMG, and whatever Slot4 weaponry is desired, with enough res to provide Meds/Ammo/Catalyst.

    However, even discounting the relatively huge power jump the Aliens get when going from 1 Hive to 2 Hives, and the relatively minor boost they get from 2 Hives to Three, there is a pretty fundamental problem with the idea that both teams at full tech should be an even match, and I think Grendel is alluding to it. In order for the Aliens to get to the point where they hold 3 hives, on nearly every map they probably also control 5-6 res nodes just by holding the ones from inside and surrounding the Hives, plus as powerful as they are they can pretty much take out the nodes the Marine do hold with minimal difficulty. So by the time there is a third hive, the Marines probably only hold 1 or 2 nodes, and the Aliens probably hold more then 6. Unless the Marines have done a genius job of managing their res, they are not going to be able to afford the equipment they would need to stop the fully teched Aliens (and that's assuming that in the grand scheme of things both teams at their top tier really are roughly equal). And it seems unlikely that a team that has managed to let the Aliens take all 3 hives are doing a genius job of anything.

    The only version I can remember where games of Classic frequently ended in 3 Hive vs HA Train bludgeonings was in 3.0Beta1 when Fades were still at 250/100 Health/Armor wise, and therefore were almost entirely taken out of the game. As I remember it Marines had a huge advantage, but in games where the Aliens would play smart, and could get up 3 hives very quickly, things would frequently end up being decided with Onos and Heavy Armor facing off, and in that case the Marines still seemed to have a 50/50 shot of winning.

    I think it'd be cool if 3 hives (or even 2, if you want to be cynical about it) didn't almost always guarantee an Alien win, but I think for reasons stated above it'd be very difficult to get to that state.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    I'm not sure what the current developer view is but in the 1.0x days 3 hives = alien win was completely intentional.
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