Analysis Of Where We Need Ideas.
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">PSA for I&S</div> Congrats devs! I think ns is pretty much full in terms of weapons, aliens, and upgrades. Just about every role is filled. It's the same reason that Starcraft was so great - there are only a few units, but each one has its own role. It's not like strategy games where there are 100 units on each side, but each unit is the same as the next.
So I&S posters, keep this in mind. Make sure your suggestion is filling a role that is empty. Or if it fills an existing role better, move whatever is in that role to another. I'm not listing ideas, I'm listing niches. This is more a "keep this in mind" than an idea.
The other time you'd add an idea is to make room for more ideas. For example: To make room for 1 more hive ability for each alien, we'd need 1) An engine that can handle that many weapons <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> and 2) Some structure that gives that ability! Or if we have a bunch of marine upgrades we want, but the buildings are crowded with uppies as it is, then suggest a new building!
<b>We have a spectrum of aliens - 0 res, 10 res, 30 res, 50 res, 75 res, each one increasing in power. </b>
Skulk - free warrior, rt killer. Cannon fodder. Scout.
Gorge - builder, building killer, mobile hive (i.e. heal)
Lerk - softens marines with spores, hardens aliens with umbra. Kills 1-2 marine groups.
Fade - solo marine/small group hunter
Onos - base killer, meat shield, mainly base killer. Small group hunter. Heavy digester.
Lerks, fades, and skulks compliment each other nicely, as do lerks and onos. I really can't think of another role we need - so suggest new aliens only if you can! (We don't need a "large group hunter". The counter to a large group of marines is a large group of aliens!)
<b>Chambers:</b>
Defense: toughness (cara - skulks), endurance (regen - higher life forms), redem (infinite lives), healing outpost
Movement: agility (cel), endurance (adren), ninjaness (silence)
Sensory: intel (sof and its scouting effect), ambushing (alien cloaking AND sc cloaking), anti MT, improved hit and running (focus)
Offense: antijetpack, area denial, marine delayer
<b>In marine weapons we have:</b>
Skulk/lerk killer: sg
Building killers: sg/gl
Vent clearer: gl
Firepower: hmg
Gl clear vents/kills buildings, hmg provides firepower, sg covers hmg and does instant damage.
<b>Or range:</b>
Close range: shotty (flamethrower is redundant see?)
Medium range: lmg/hmg
Non line-of-sight (i.e. around corners, into vents): gl, hand nades
<span style='color:red'>Long range: Pistol...? Only against skulks. We need a good one here, lmgs/hmgs spread too much for long range.</span>
<b>And counters:</b>
DC: Upgrade the marines to match.
MC: MT (counters cele and more importantly silence), armor also helps.
SC: Armor for antiambush, scans, build obs everywhere.
Lerk: medpacks, 1 shotty will kill it in 2 shots (unless it's a reallly good lerk).
<span style='color:red'>Fade: shotguns, pray. All too often it's gg once the right man gets his hands on fade. But what can we do? The learning curve is steep as it is.
Onos: hmgs. Lots of them. I don't think onos need stomp any more, b/c they seem to be owning fine without it (Case in point: it's almost become polite in co to not use stomp when onosing! And EVERYONE has shotties there! Then again, you don't see heavies that often in co)</span>
---
Elec/turret farm: fade, bilebomb
Jps: ocs, webs (mainly ocs - if you have web its probably gg anyway.)
Heavies: attack base (fade), attack from both sides, stomp, umbra.
Shotties: more jumping and ambushing by skulks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hmgs: see above
Hive rush: parasite
<span style='color:red'>Motion Tracking: not really any alien counters... sensory, but that takes a hive - quite a bit of time and commitment. And you have to cover the map in them. You CAN walk everywhere... but skulk walk is borked and gives you away, and also takes too long. On the other hand, if there WAS a good alien counter, then MT wouldn't be worth it. Hmmm.
Perceptive (ears open) marines: you can turn your walk down so you don't make a sound, but then you're too slow. This could really use tweaking. It probably amounts to changing one or two variables. I hate having the pick pick pick! sound ruin a perfect ambush. I'd also love to see walking skulks more than walking marines.</span>
Whew that was long! Congrats if you made your way through it all! It'd appreciate thoughts and additions to my list. Now I'll repeat: this is NOT an idea or collection of ideas, it is more a concept to keep in mind when suggesting things for NS! Try to fill niches with your suggestions, or make suggestions that make room for your niche-filling suggestions! Thank you and good night!
So I&S posters, keep this in mind. Make sure your suggestion is filling a role that is empty. Or if it fills an existing role better, move whatever is in that role to another. I'm not listing ideas, I'm listing niches. This is more a "keep this in mind" than an idea.
The other time you'd add an idea is to make room for more ideas. For example: To make room for 1 more hive ability for each alien, we'd need 1) An engine that can handle that many weapons <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> and 2) Some structure that gives that ability! Or if we have a bunch of marine upgrades we want, but the buildings are crowded with uppies as it is, then suggest a new building!
<b>We have a spectrum of aliens - 0 res, 10 res, 30 res, 50 res, 75 res, each one increasing in power. </b>
Skulk - free warrior, rt killer. Cannon fodder. Scout.
Gorge - builder, building killer, mobile hive (i.e. heal)
Lerk - softens marines with spores, hardens aliens with umbra. Kills 1-2 marine groups.
Fade - solo marine/small group hunter
Onos - base killer, meat shield, mainly base killer. Small group hunter. Heavy digester.
Lerks, fades, and skulks compliment each other nicely, as do lerks and onos. I really can't think of another role we need - so suggest new aliens only if you can! (We don't need a "large group hunter". The counter to a large group of marines is a large group of aliens!)
<b>Chambers:</b>
Defense: toughness (cara - skulks), endurance (regen - higher life forms), redem (infinite lives), healing outpost
Movement: agility (cel), endurance (adren), ninjaness (silence)
Sensory: intel (sof and its scouting effect), ambushing (alien cloaking AND sc cloaking), anti MT, improved hit and running (focus)
Offense: antijetpack, area denial, marine delayer
<b>In marine weapons we have:</b>
Skulk/lerk killer: sg
Building killers: sg/gl
Vent clearer: gl
Firepower: hmg
Gl clear vents/kills buildings, hmg provides firepower, sg covers hmg and does instant damage.
<b>Or range:</b>
Close range: shotty (flamethrower is redundant see?)
Medium range: lmg/hmg
Non line-of-sight (i.e. around corners, into vents): gl, hand nades
<span style='color:red'>Long range: Pistol...? Only against skulks. We need a good one here, lmgs/hmgs spread too much for long range.</span>
<b>And counters:</b>
DC: Upgrade the marines to match.
MC: MT (counters cele and more importantly silence), armor also helps.
SC: Armor for antiambush, scans, build obs everywhere.
Lerk: medpacks, 1 shotty will kill it in 2 shots (unless it's a reallly good lerk).
<span style='color:red'>Fade: shotguns, pray. All too often it's gg once the right man gets his hands on fade. But what can we do? The learning curve is steep as it is.
Onos: hmgs. Lots of them. I don't think onos need stomp any more, b/c they seem to be owning fine without it (Case in point: it's almost become polite in co to not use stomp when onosing! And EVERYONE has shotties there! Then again, you don't see heavies that often in co)</span>
---
Elec/turret farm: fade, bilebomb
Jps: ocs, webs (mainly ocs - if you have web its probably gg anyway.)
Heavies: attack base (fade), attack from both sides, stomp, umbra.
Shotties: more jumping and ambushing by skulks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hmgs: see above
Hive rush: parasite
<span style='color:red'>Motion Tracking: not really any alien counters... sensory, but that takes a hive - quite a bit of time and commitment. And you have to cover the map in them. You CAN walk everywhere... but skulk walk is borked and gives you away, and also takes too long. On the other hand, if there WAS a good alien counter, then MT wouldn't be worth it. Hmmm.
Perceptive (ears open) marines: you can turn your walk down so you don't make a sound, but then you're too slow. This could really use tweaking. It probably amounts to changing one or two variables. I hate having the pick pick pick! sound ruin a perfect ambush. I'd also love to see walking skulks more than walking marines.</span>
Whew that was long! Congrats if you made your way through it all! It'd appreciate thoughts and additions to my list. Now I'll repeat: this is NOT an idea or collection of ideas, it is more a concept to keep in mind when suggesting things for NS! Try to fill niches with your suggestions, or make suggestions that make room for your niche-filling suggestions! Thank you and good night!
Comments
you can no counter to motion and no long range wep... to me? you need to sort them both at the same time or not at all.
it their was a slow fire sniper like weapon then motion would need weakening because otherwise camping all but (good) fade could get scary strong. heck, even fades could get a rough time if the firepower was enough to even dent a onos.
so... maybe the lack of a long range weapon, isnt a weakness of ns, more a dynamic, cs is played at extreme ranges, now that'd never be the case with ns, half of the players (shotties,skulks,lerks,fades,onos) want nothing more than to get real close, a few snipers wont stop that, but in clan play (or in good pub play at least) a small group of snipers could turn any corridor based map into a death trap.
the only kinda sniper i can think of that wouldnt be too lame wouldnt differ all to much from the current meat of the pistol (pisol+scope, slower fire rate, more power balanced against the lower fire rate)
in other words, by time aliens get second hive, rines have a counter for every chamber, and there just waiting, saying go on, drop that hive drop that new chamber
Any particular reason this was put in GD?
Any particular reason this was put in GD? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps he thought that, since it wasnt an idea or suggestion, it shouldn't go in the I&S forum... Either that or he wanted to have his thread read by more people...
Pretty good thread Ballisto! I think it sums up things pretty well! But I think marines do not need a "very long range" weapon. IMO, there aren't that many situations that require pinpoint shooting across rooms, and I doubt you'd miss that Onos that much with your HMG if you take your time. I think this also encourages the marines to move more and get in the action instead of camping, thus making SG and HMG combo more effective when covering eachother.
Perhaps you could also talk about mines, I think they are very useful and I see them pretty much every game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This could really use tweaking. It probably amounts to changing one or two variables. I hate having the pick pick pick! sound ruin a perfect ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Movement: agility (cel), endurance (adren), <b>ninjaness (silence)</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think silence is there for a reason, if you don't want to screw ambushes by being heard, then you must sacrifice speed and endurance for silence <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ah yes, the flamethrower. How are you going to roast all those skulks in the vent with a shotgun? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> But I guess we won't be able to use flamethrowers until NS:S or maybe even NS2. Or maybe never. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do sacrifice endurance and speed and get silence every time I skulk. I'd like to be able to sacrifice speed for stealth without mcs by walking. I don't see how it's lame in any way (going that slowly it's hard to catch up to marines and it makes you a REALLY good target).
Walk is designed for stealth right? Sacrifice speed to go silently. It works great for marines (just crouch), but for skulk it gives off a "pick" sound every 3 steps or so... and that's enough to do you in. I think that needs to be fixed. Skulk walk.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lazarus+May 10 2005, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazarus @ May 10 2005, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ah yes, the flamethrower. How are you going to roast all those skulks in the vent with a shotgun?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe not roast, but gib with nades <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I do sacrifice endurance and speed and get silence every time I skulk. I'd like to be able to sacrifice speed for stealth without mcs by walking. I don't see how it's lame in any way (going that slowly it's hard to catch up to marines and it makes you a REALLY good target).
Walk is designed for stealth right? Sacrifice speed to go silently. It works great for marines (just crouch), but for skulk it gives off a "pick" sound every 3 steps or so... and that's enough to do you in. I think that needs to be fixed. Skulk walk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was intrigued when you said you heard some clicks when walking since this almost never happens to me when I'm walking as a skulk. So I decided to check it out just to make sure I wasn't just not paying attention when walking, and I was able to walk for a long time without hearing myself.
However, I noticed that if you are quickly turning the mouse while walking, you can hear 1 or 2 "picks", perhaps are you being betrayed by this when ambushing? I prefer alternating Forward-Strafe so I'm sure of not making any sound. Also (I'm pretty sure you're already aware of that) if you are moving forward/backward and you also strafe (or vice-versa), you make tons of noise.
Anyway, I prefer avoiding open rooms and long corridors as much as possible so I don't have that much distance to cover to get to my target! But I do agree they could tweak it up a bit more useful, although I don't really have problems with it myself.
Untrue!
They block more bullets as well. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nah, they do better against HA too due to devour.