Not the wrong answer, as I've already said <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By saying you want an abortion you are saying "I don't want this foetus inside me, I am not able to be a mother at the moment and, for whatever reason, I don't want to continue this pregnancy".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If she is currently giving birth then it isn't a foetus, she has a person coming out of her at the time. Besides which, wome are always shouting things like "I've changed my mind!" and "put it back!" because it hurts, they've always been ignored before.
Please stop trying to trip me up, it really doesn't reflect well on you.
there is right, and there is wrong - shades of grey are there to excuse "wrong" behavior.
A society is measured by how it treats its most helpless members. Be it the 1.5 million yearly killed in the US because no one "wants" them.
You know what - it doesn't bother me that much - the more the democrats kill their own young, the less voting power they have in the future... what goes around, comes around.
Lets take an evolutionist view at this - if your old enough to have sex - your old enough to care for your offspring. I'm currenly not aware of any other gestating animal that kills its own unborn.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Apr 21 2005, 01:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Apr 21 2005, 01:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> there is right, and there is wrong - shades of grey are there to excuse "wrong" behavior. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are completely wrong. There are situations in which there is no right answer. If we captured Osama Bin Laden, should we execute him or imprison him? As far as I can see, there is no evidence that conclusively points towards either option. Both sides of the argument have valid opinions and the two sides are just different shades of grey, rather than black and white.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A society is measured by how it treats its most helpless members. Be it the 1.5 million yearly killed in the US because no one "wants" them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is interesting, coming from the person who doesn't like social welfare, because the poor leech off of everyone else. Like I said, it depends on your definition of a person. If one doesn't think a 3 month old fetus is a person, then it doesn't deserve the same rights as a person and your argument falls apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know what - it doesn't bother me that much - the more the democrats kill their own young, the less voting power they have in the future... what goes around, comes around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you want to look at it like that, then you can say Republicans have awful economic policies because red states are much poorer on average than blue states. Democrats are breeding themselves to be a moderately sized middle class caste above a Republican large lower class (with a small Republican upper class, of course).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets take an evolutionist view at this - if your old enough to have sex - your old enough to care for your offspring. I'm currenly not aware of any other gestating animal that kills its own unborn.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're kidding, right? There are species of animals, where newborns will eat the eggs of their fellow species members(e.g. Herring Gulls). Wikipedia has examples of infant cannibalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism#Non-human_cannibalism).
Slight difference, animals don't have a monetary system or any kind of complex society. Animals that can breed can provide for their young but a 12 year old girl can't get a job and cannot properly care for children. Animals don't need sex education to teach children what they are doing. Animals don't have sex for pleasure.
I wouldn't call a foetus a member of society.
I actually agree that there is right and wrong and not shades of grey. I believe that in every single situation there is a right and wrong thing to do. However if you take all of those little bits of right and wrong, of black and white, and then step back all you are going to see is a whole load of grey.
nomatter what i will always believe that women should have the right to abort whenever they want, this is becourse some people might not like having a handicapped child, or seeing their baby live without a arm or so.
also they may not be ready for a child or they dont want it, i dont care but please, let them decide wheter they want it or not.
(anyone seen its only americans that are against aborts?)
<!--QuoteBegin-Metalcat+Apr 21 2005, 01:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Metalcat @ Apr 21 2005, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (anyone seen its only americans that are against aborts?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You realise that the author of this thread is a Brit, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am in brittain, so i assure you i have no American scope.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was gonna have a response, but after reading Muffassa's **** I realized I don't care to associate with most of you any more. In fact, I'd like to be a Restricted Member so that everyone will know I will have no part in this.
Laws aren't based on morality. They are based on what would benefit society as a whole. Murder is illegal, not because it's immoral, but because society functions better as a result.
Abortion was illegal in the US before. However, women still had abortions. If you want to stop abortions completely, you'll need to consider a more drastic alternative. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The two sides aren't mutually exclusive. The Pro-Life side wants the fetus to live. The Pro-Choice side wants the woman to have the right to make the decision to abort. However, it just so happens that aborting a fetus usually kills it.
If we could abort a fetus, but at the same time have it fully develop outside the womb, then an actual compromise could be reached between both sides. There are still issues of responsibility, as a fetus, and later a child, does need to be taken care of for 18+ years by someone. However, the process of Adoption has done a great deal of groundwork in this area.
There are people that are Anti-Birth Control, rather than Pro-Life. They simply view abortion as yet another form of birth control. Something to keep in mind, as I think I saw a few people with this viewpoint in this thread.
Guys no politics please. None, i am ignorant on the democrat/ republican views. I want none of that in here, i started this debate on the ethical issues. Lets not get this closed coz it slides OT.
<!--QuoteBegin-metalcat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (metalcat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->nomatter what i will always believe that women should have the right to abort whenever they want, this is becourse some people might not like having a handicapped child, or seeing their baby live without a arm or so.
also they may not be ready for a child or they dont want it, i dont care but please, let them decide wheter they want it or not.
(anyone seen its only americans that are against aborts?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->#
If you refuse to take on board any of the other viewpoints , then you fail to take part in the discussion. Simply stating "No matter what i am right so there" seems frankly childish.
Also just becoz a child is missing limb or has a diformity, does not mean we should auto-abort. I already stated foetuses have an auto-abort feature inbuilt if it asseses itself to be to deviant. On this earth we can not all be perfect. Some of us will be less forunate. But if they can live, then why deny them the right?
May i ask permission to post the video? A link or the name? It is very very moving and shocking. Obviously may upset some people. I am asking before posting for a reason. That video changed the views of 80 % of the hardline pro-choice guys at my old schools current affairs club.
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 02:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also just becoz a child is missing limb or has a diformity, does not mean we should auto-abort. I already stated foetuses have an auto-abort feature inbuilt if it asseses itself to be to deviant. On this earth we can not all be perfect. Some of us will be less forunate. But if they can live, then why deny them the right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I never got this argument. You can use this to say that contraception is bad. A child can live if two people don't use a condom while having sex, so why deny that child the right to live?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->May i ask permission to post the video? A link or the name? It is very very moving and shocking. Obviously may upset some people. I am asking before posting for a reason. That video changed the views of 80 % of the hardline pro-choice guys at my old schools current affairs club.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm ok with it, but I'm not a mod. Is it one of those videos that tries to shock people into becoming pro-life by showing them how gross an abortion procedure is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never got this argument. You can use this to say that contraception is bad. A child can live if two people don't use a condom while having sex, so why deny that child the right to live?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there is no child, until after conception, only male gametes and female gametes, which arnt even hole cells untill they fuse. But killing a child who does exist because it has a cleft lip /downsyndrome/blind/deaf is just wrong, as there is a child to kill.
The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 03:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I never got this argument. You can use this to say that contraception is bad. A child can live if two people don't use a condom while having sex, so why deny that child the right to live?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because there is no child, until after conception, only male gametes and female gametes, which arnt even hole cells untill they fuse. But killing a child who does exist because it has a cleft lip /downsyndrome/blind/deaf is just wrong, as there is a child to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, this goes back to the definition of a child.
If this is an "ethical" discussion, then you really can't tell people what's right or wrong with any grain of absolute certainty, because ethics are like morals - they're decided upon by the individual. The difference is that the majority (or at least the people with power) can bring their morals into politics and legal realization, and therefore govern the 'morals' of others through enforced restriction.
And all those terms - pro-choice, pro-life, anti-life... please. You can label groups whatever you want, but if we're "anti-life" instead of "pro-choice," why aren't we running around trying to cause a mass genocide of every living thing we come across? People throw labels around in an attempt to add positive or negative connotations to groups for their own ends, and "anti-life" is just another one of those "despite the fact that they have specific reasons or beliefs for supporting their viewpoint, we're just going to slap a negative label on them to promote our own beliefs versus an idealized version of theirs, since "pro-life" and "anti-life" provoke that much more violent imagery in a shorter span of time."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animals that can breed can provide for their young but a 12 year old girl can't get a job and cannot properly care for children. Animals don't need sex education to teach children what they are doing. Animals don't have sex for pleasure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on everything - though I'm not sure about the last. I could swear I've read that some animals do - dolphins masturbate against rocks and such, while other animals engage in homosexual promiscuous behavior (though I couldn't say whether they're *trying* to have a baby or just having fun...).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm ok with it, but I'm not a mod. Is it one of those videos that tries to shock people into becoming pro-life by showing them how gross an abortion procedure is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on that note, is it going to be like Michael Moore's films, where the majority of the "facts" given are either adjusted at will or fabricated outright?
Child is wrong. i ment baby/foetus/being/baby... what else? Contraception stops any foetus being formed. Abortion kills a foetus and stops its chance from growing, and being born into a human baby.
Heh Athena, I knew I'd get that. As soon as I wrote All I knew I should have put 'most' because I knew there would be an exception. Fair enough, you learn something new every day.
I don't mind if you post the video but all it will do is persuade people who haven't given it much thought. A large proportion of people you could class pro-choice are actually people who just haven't thought about it so they've taken the PC view. You can sway them to think anything.
I guarentee it won't change my view as my belief in 'pro-choice' isn't based on "well you can't really call it a human". I'm happy to pretend it is human from conception if you want although I don't think it is, it would make no difference as the mother comes first.
All it will do is guilt trip people, not an argument that can sway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm happy to pretend it is human from conception if you want although I don't think it is, it would make no difference as the mother comes first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being patronising. I am not trying to guilt trip people, but to show em the reaction of the foetus, as most of the -excuse the lable- pro choice people see it as a non human, i want to show them just how human and baby like the foetuses reaction is.
Athena, no it is not a fact filled movie, its just one particular clip i woudl like people to see... as i posted just before
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 10:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 10:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nature is amazing. If there is a complication early on in the pregnancy, (eg severe cromosomal errors) then the foetus will auto-abort, without any intrusion from the outside world. If by that you mean that the baby is found to be deaf/ blind/ has downs syndrome/ lack of limbs or any other non life-threatening complication then i dont think there should be an abortion even at early stages. There is however scope for flexibility. That flexibility would only come from further debate on the actual complication. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's true. But I meant that if it would severly hurt the mother's body. Say, for some reason, she can't carry the baby until it's formed enough to be removed by a C-section. There may not be many cases like this, but surely they happen. In this case, would you condone an abortion?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Murder is illegal, not because it's immoral, but because society functions better as a result.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe that it's homicide that is illegal. Meaning that it's illegal to accidentally crush someone with a forklift or try to kill yourself, I believe. (Homicide being killing humans, murder is killing humans with malice.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Athena+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Athena)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->while other animals engage in homosexual promiscuous behavior (though I couldn't say whether they're *trying* to have a baby or just having fun...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to get too off-topic, but I believe that homosexuality is a way to cull the population. When an animal gets too crowded together, some turn to homosexuality, because there are too many of that animal. I could be wrong. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> [EDIT:] By the way... If you want to debate this, please send me a PM or an IM or something, I don't want to steer this thread horribly off-topic.
I imagine it's very similar to another clip of an animal that had it's skin ripped off, then thrown into a pile of dead animals, while it was still alive. I'm sure if you had a parasite inside you, such as one of those intestinal worms, and you tried to kill it, it would wiggle around too, even though it's not human. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 09:07 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 09:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fine... a girl gets pregnant. Takes a year off, has the baby, returns to school (after child has been given away)gets on with her life. Her mistake, her year.. but she can now carry on
I also think if the couples out there knew that Abortion wasnt a viable option if they made a mistake, then they would be more crefull in using contraception. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with this at all. Taking a year off school is not something is so easy to do. Its even harder if you ability to work is impacted by your pregnancy. Even if she still can work through most of the pregnancy, that doesn't mean she can actually support herself. If I lost my student loans (which dropping below a full time student would do) there is no way that i could cover rent, bills, and food with my job, not to mention doctor bills and such. Which brings up another problem, if your in school, you can still be on your parents insurance or the schools. If your not you have to find your own insurance, which is really expensive. Without insurance, your pretty much screwed hen it comes to getting access to doctors, needed medication, even reasonably safe accommodations for having the child. Socialized medicine would help his of course, but thats a long ways off here in the states.
Secondly a year off school can really screw up your academic life. If you got pregnant during a semester (fairly likely), how well do you think you could do during the rest of that semester? If you drop out, your still stuck with the bill, with nothing to show for it. After a year, most colleges require you to reapply, and it will be harder to get in if you dropped out recently, or got lower grades. Hopefully the admission board would be understanding about your circumstances, but its not by any means guaranteed.
Sure she can carry on, but how well? How much has she lost because abortion wasn't an option?
Beyond that, it appears that you think that if a woman wants an abortion she or her partner has to have made some massive mistake that means she deserves all the problems she now has to deal with. I don't think this is the case. Contraceptives are not all that reliable. If used properly their close, but there are still so many things that can go wrong. Condoms break. Maybe her partner didn't know how to put it on right. Maybe she forgot to take the pill one day. I have to take a medication every day, and I know I sure as hell forget sometimes, don't even realize it sometimes, until the end of the prescription and I have an extra dose or two. Other forms of contraceptives are even less reliable. At any rate, things can go wrong for reasons completely beyond her control, is that still making a mistake?
Add in this like alcohol and drugs, and the possibility for something going wrong is even higher. Granted, one loses some of the ability to say "well this was beyond my control", but I still feel that this is important to point out. Just because you choose to use one of these substances, doesn't mean you should have to sign away a year of your life. I don't like using it as an excuse for my behavior, but in a realistic world, one has to take this into consideration. I can't tell you how many times I've woken up and though "Why the **** did I do that?". Its even worse if your trying something for the first time you try something. You really don't know what its going to do to you, so how can you really responsibly prepare for it.
Now the obvious response to that is, "well, you chose to do that its your fault if anything bad happens". As I said before, I don't like using it as an excuse. But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, a society is judged by how it treats the unwanted in a society. Well in our society drug users, and to a lesser degree people who use alcohol more than moderately are some of the most vilified people. Never mind that something like a quarter of our high school children use drugs, and a really large chunk of people use alcohol (and of course the social pressures involved in using both, and the media's portrayal of coolness based of use of these things). We are the unwanted in this society, the fringe, the "underground". What does it say about the society that you want to produce if we are to punished harshly (this particular gripe goes beyond the scope of unwanted pregnancies, but to bring that up would be way off topic), if are unable to redeem ourselves?
Finally, as I said before, concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of this is pointless. Its not a question that can be answered universally, as it depends on some basic personal definitions of the world around you, such as if there is a such a thing as a soul, and what it means to be aware, etc. And even if you answer these questions the same as another person, doesn't mean that you'll come to an conclusion. I believe in a soul, but still support abortion. Ultimately this is the real sticky point in the matter, it depends so much on your personal outlook on life. Thats why the government should not step and ban it. If you don't allow for people to make up their own minds on the matter, your forcing them to conform to someone else's ideas, beliefs. And given how important religion can be in this argument, thats a direct invasion of the freedom of religion, in my opinion.
This is getting to america-centrised...im not sure how adoption/ goverment help works in the states but in england teenage pregnancies can find help from th government.
Sure, you make a mistake you live with the consequences. The mistake might not be entirely theirs, so if they cant take care of it give it to adoption centre or foster care.
Instead of the NHS spending money on free abortons, they should spend it on educating the youth so as to minmise the risk of unwanted conception. Tbh pill + uterine cap + condom = almost 99.9% coverage against "mistakes"
finaly concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of it is NOT pointless. We can not have a free for all we have to have some norms for when we can call it human. TBH after seeing the video, im quite sure the foetus is human well before the stipulated 24 weeks, it was 11 weeks.
Oh and comparing foetuses to worms? gg distancing people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of the NHS spending money on free abortons, they should spend it on educating the youth so as to minmise the risk of unwanted conception. Tbh pill + uterine cap + condom = almost 99.9% coverage against "mistakes" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sex education is taught in schools. At least, it was when I was going through school...
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm happy to pretend it is human from conception if you want although I don't think it is, it would make no difference as the mother comes first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being patronising. I am not trying to guilt trip people, but to show em the reaction of the foetus, as most of the -excuse the lable- pro choice people see it as a non human, i want to show them just how human and baby like the foetuses reaction is.
Athena, no it is not a fact filled movie, its just one particular clip i woudl like people to see... as i posted just before
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't trying to be patronising at all so I'm sorry if you took it that way. However, trying to convince us it's human = trying to prove to us its infanticide = guilt trip.
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+Apr 21 2005, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll @ Apr 21 2005, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of the NHS spending money on free abortons, they should spend it on educating the youth so as to minmise the risk of unwanted conception. Tbh pill + uterine cap + condom = almost 99.9% coverage against "mistakes" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank God the President of the United States of America is against educating the youth. I'd rather have free abortions than a system that doesn't educate teens and discourages contraception. Also, 99.9% means that in a nation of 300 million, 300 thousand people (60,000 in the UK) would have unsuccessful birth control and would be vulnerable to an unwanted pregnancy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->finaly concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of it is NOT pointless. We can not have a free for all we have to have some norms for when we can call it human. TBH after seeing the video, im quite sure the foetus is human well before the stipulated 24 weeks, it was 11 weeks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is pointless to concentrate on when a fetus turns into a baby. There's no way to reach a consensus. Some say that a fetus turns into a baby at conception, others say at the moment it attains consciousness or at the moment it is viable outside the womb, or even at birth. Of course, the whole abortion debate is reduced to the moment a fetus turns into a baby, so I guess the whole debate is pointless.
Also, either link us to a video file, describe the video in depth, or stop talking about it. Saying that a video convinced you doesn't mean much to us when we don't know what the contents of the video are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead of the NHS spending money on free abortons, they should spend it on educating the youth so as to minmise the risk of unwanted conception. Tbh pill + uterine cap + condom = almost 99.9% coverage against "mistakes"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, because if we tell teens the risks associated with sex enough times there will never be an unwanted pregnancy...
No, that' doesn't fix the problem.
As <b>theclam</b> said, no matter the situation, the argument is going to hinge on whether you see a fetus as a mass of non-sentient cells or a human being, since we can all probably agree that killing people is wrong (YMMV).
What about the Man's right to "abort"? Should a father be able to abort his legal responsibility to the child in the case where he feels he is "not ready"?
After all, in a case where the father is supporting the mother it could be argued that the Man's body is essentialy supporting the baby via work.
I believe the pro-life people should all sign up online... leaving their contact info. We can then make abortions illegal... for all the unwanted babies will be shipped to the Pro-Life people. Thats what the pro-life people want right? more babies?
<!--QuoteBegin-Deus Ex Machina+Apr 22 2005, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deus Ex Machina @ Apr 22 2005, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As <b>theclam</b> said, no matter the situation, the argument is going to hinge on whether you see a fetus as a mass of non-sentient cells or a human being, since we can all probably agree that killing people is wrong (YMMV). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, we can all agree that killing people is wrong unless there are extenuating circumstances. I believe that still being inside their mother and unable to be seperated counts as 'extenuating'. Then it doesn't matter when it becomes a person.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+Apr 21 2005, 10:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Apr 21 2005, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe the pro-life people should all sign up online... leaving their contact info. We can then make abortions illegal... for all the unwanted babies will be shipped to the Pro-Life people. Thats what the pro-life people want right? more babies? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My dad is "pro-life." He used to go to the Planned Parenthood and protest against abortions. My mom always wanted more kids so one day she tells my dad that next time he goes to protest, he should offer to pay the woman's medical bills and my family would adopt the kid. My dad, however, did not want more kids and refused to do so. When pushed on this, he said that taking care of the kid wasn't his problem.
Now, is this really pro-life? I would argue it's not.
To me, there are 4 groups in this debate: pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-choice, and pro-abortion.
Here is how I define those: Pro-life are against abortion and would do anything to save the kids, including adopting and supporting them. Anti-abortion people, which I include my dad in, don't give a crap about the kid, just are morally against abortions. Pro-choice may or may not support abortion, but believe in the right to choose. And pro-abortion are just how they sound, they think abortion is a good thing.
I'm personally pro-choice. I don't believe in abortion, but it's not my place to tell someone they have to potentially ruin their life and/or health.
So here's my challenge. Anyone in this thread who is proclaiming to be pro-life, I want you to swear before God or whatever diety you believe in, that rather than just talk against it, you will take real action and monetarily and emotionally support ANYONE who wants an abortion in order to prevent said abortion, and then actually follow through and do that. I want you to actually do something to save the kid rather than just spouting off useless rhetoric.
One final thought before I go. If anyone who is pro-life here says they can't financially aid a potentail aborter, how can you justify spending money on your computer and video games but not to save a kid?
Sorry bout the late post of the video, it was like 2 am in UK and i had school today... here is the link. Watch it all.<a href='http://www.silentscream.org' target='_blank'>Link</a> I am at school so i cant post the link to the actual video as it is blocked.
The clam, if you want to use figures... There are not 300mill people in States who are capable of having children. Lets say tops 80 mill, 25mill in Brittain.
In the world 46 million abortions are conducted each year, 20 million illegaly. If abortion was made illegal except for thoes exemptions stated in the first post, abortions would drop to lets say 25million (including legal ones due to extrenuating circumstances) Couple this with more higher quality education in all parts of the world (if it is top class in the states it deffinately isnt top class all over the world), the figure drops to lets say 10-15 million. Add better resources for adoption + foster care and maybe people would decide to not have an abortion lets say 10 million illegal abortions take place. Add stricter enforcement of allyway-clinics and increase jailterm for it, and the figure drops to hopefully below 10 mill? 5 mill maybe?
So all in all only 5 million humans-to be are killed. This does not mean there is an increased number of unwanted babies due to the better education for contraceptive measures. Aprox 1.3 million abortions in the states a year the above methods could drop it to 13000 abortions (legal + illegal) a year.
The problem with numbers is that thousands are a tragedy, millions are a statistic. Again a tool often used for desensitising humans
I said earlier if all the funds giving free abortions were put toward education, not just at schools, then there would be a reduced number of unwanted pregnancies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My dad is "pro-life." He used to go to the Planned Parenthood and protest against abortions. My mom always wanted more kids so one day she tells my dad that next time he goes to protest, he should offer to pay the woman's medical bills and my family would adopt the kid. My dad, however, did not want more kids and refused to do so. When pushed on this, he said that taking care of the kid wasn't his problem.
Now, is this really pro-life? I would argue it's not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes he is, he cares about the life of the unborn baby. He doesnt want its mother to decide that she can kill it just because she has the choice to, whatever her problems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One final thought before I go. If anyone who is pro-life here says they can't financially aid a potentail aborter, how can you justify spending money on your computer and video games but not to save a kid? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are joking right? You think that a kid costs about as much as looking after a computer + a few games? So because of the irresponsible mistake/nievity of some people i should look after the kid?Hell no! Oh...wait... we already do, Taxes (very high in the uk) The money collected (billions worldwide) are used to enforce and enplace great foster care and adoption scheams. So while i do not raise the kid myself, i do pay towards its maintenence, everyone does.This applys to your dad too.Or anyone in society who pays taxes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't believe in abortion, but it's not my place to tell someone they have to potentially ruin their life and/or health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*immagines you in a hostage situation, you being the negotiator* "So go ahead, kill her, i cant tell you what to do, im againstr what you are doing but i cant tell you what to do. Im pro-choice*
<!--QuoteBegin-Cmeast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cmeast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe that still being inside their mother and <b>unable to be seperated </b> counts as 'extenuating'. Then it doesn't matter when it becomes a person. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm, yes they can be separated and survive at 24 weeks (youngest ever recorded premature baby was at 21 1/2 weeks) they only need an incubator untill lungs start producing surfactant, then they can breath on their own. So you saying the mother can abort a day before she is due to deliver is...bleh <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
At least put back your cut off point to 24 weeks like most pro-choice.. coz that is frankly shocking.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats what the pro-life people want right? more babies?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No we want the stopping of killing of innocent babies, not more babies.
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> By saying you want an abortion you are saying "I don't want this foetus inside me, I am not able to be a mother at the moment and, for whatever reason, I don't want to continue this pregnancy".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If she is currently giving birth then it isn't a foetus, she has a person coming out of her at the time. Besides which, wome are always shouting things like "I've changed my mind!" and "put it back!" because it hurts, they've always been ignored before.
Please stop trying to trip me up, it really doesn't reflect well on you.
A society is measured by how it treats its most helpless members. Be it the 1.5 million yearly killed in the US because no one "wants" them.
You know what - it doesn't bother me that much - the more the democrats kill their own young, the less voting power they have in the future... what goes around, comes around.
Lets take an evolutionist view at this - if your old enough to have sex - your old enough to care for your offspring. I'm currenly not aware of any other gestating animal that kills its own unborn.
You are completely wrong. There are situations in which there is no right answer. If we captured Osama Bin Laden, should we execute him or imprison him? As far as I can see, there is no evidence that conclusively points towards either option. Both sides of the argument have valid opinions and the two sides are just different shades of grey, rather than black and white.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A society is measured by how it treats its most helpless members. Be it the 1.5 million yearly killed in the US because no one "wants" them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is interesting, coming from the person who doesn't like social welfare, because the poor leech off of everyone else. Like I said, it depends on your definition of a person. If one doesn't think a 3 month old fetus is a person, then it doesn't deserve the same rights as a person and your argument falls apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know what - it doesn't bother me that much - the more the democrats kill their own young, the less voting power they have in the future... what goes around, comes around.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you want to look at it like that, then you can say Republicans have awful economic policies because red states are much poorer on average than blue states. Democrats are breeding themselves to be a moderately sized middle class caste above a Republican large lower class (with a small Republican upper class, of course).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets take an evolutionist view at this - if your old enough to have sex - your old enough to care for your offspring. I'm currenly not aware of any other gestating animal that kills its own unborn.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're kidding, right? There are species of animals, where newborns will eat the eggs of their fellow species members(e.g. Herring Gulls). Wikipedia has examples of infant cannibalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism#Non-human_cannibalism).
Argh.
Evolution is just a scientific theory. Its mission is to explain. What it does not do is tell us how to live.
I wouldn't call a foetus a member of society.
I actually agree that there is right and wrong and not shades of grey. I believe that in every single situation there is a right and wrong thing to do. However if you take all of those little bits of right and wrong, of black and white, and then step back all you are going to see is a whole load of grey.
Bah at mis-types
also they may not be ready for a child or they dont want it, i dont care but please, let them decide wheter they want it or not.
(anyone seen its only americans that are against aborts?)
You realise that the author of this thread is a Brit, right?
<!--QuoteBegin-Steel Troll+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Steel Troll)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am in brittain, so i assure you i have no American scope.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Abortion was illegal in the US before. However, women still had abortions. If you want to stop abortions completely, you'll need to consider a more drastic alternative. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The two sides aren't mutually exclusive. The Pro-Life side wants the fetus to live. The Pro-Choice side wants the woman to have the right to make the decision to abort. However, it just so happens that aborting a fetus usually kills it.
If we could abort a fetus, but at the same time have it fully develop outside the womb, then an actual compromise could be reached between both sides. There are still issues of responsibility, as a fetus, and later a child, does need to be taken care of for 18+ years by someone. However, the process of Adoption has done a great deal of groundwork in this area.
There are people that are Anti-Birth Control, rather than Pro-Life. They simply view abortion as yet another form of birth control. Something to keep in mind, as I think I saw a few people with this viewpoint in this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-metalcat+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (metalcat)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->nomatter what i will always believe that women should have the right to abort whenever they want, this is becourse some people might not like having a handicapped child, or seeing their baby live without a arm or so.
also they may not be ready for a child or they dont want it, i dont care but please, let them decide wheter they want it or not.
(anyone seen its only americans that are against aborts?)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->#
If you refuse to take on board any of the other viewpoints , then you fail to take part in the discussion. Simply stating "No matter what i am right so there" seems frankly childish.
Also just becoz a child is missing limb or has a diformity, does not mean we should auto-abort. I already stated foetuses have an auto-abort feature inbuilt if it asseses itself to be to deviant. On this earth we can not all be perfect. Some of us will be less forunate. But if they can live, then why deny them the right?
May i ask permission to post the video? A link or the name? It is very very moving and shocking. Obviously may upset some people. I am asking before posting for a reason. That video changed the views of 80 % of the hardline pro-choice guys at my old schools current affairs club.
I never got this argument. You can use this to say that contraception is bad. A child can live if two people don't use a condom while having sex, so why deny that child the right to live?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->May i ask permission to post the video? A link or the name? It is very very moving and shocking. Obviously may upset some people. I am asking before posting for a reason. That video changed the views of 80 % of the hardline pro-choice guys at my old schools current affairs club.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm ok with it, but I'm not a mod. Is it one of those videos that tries to shock people into becoming pro-life by showing them how gross an abortion procedure is?
Because there is no child, until after conception, only male gametes and female gametes, which arnt even hole cells untill they fuse. But killing a child who does exist because it has a cleft lip /downsyndrome/blind/deaf is just wrong, as there is a child to kill.
The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.
Because there is no child, until after conception, only male gametes and female gametes, which arnt even hole cells untill they fuse. But killing a child who does exist because it has a cleft lip /downsyndrome/blind/deaf is just wrong, as there is a child to kill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, this goes back to the definition of a child.
And all those terms - pro-choice, pro-life, anti-life... please. You can label groups whatever you want, but if we're "anti-life" instead of "pro-choice," why aren't we running around trying to cause a mass genocide of every living thing we come across? People throw labels around in an attempt to add positive or negative connotations to groups for their own ends, and "anti-life" is just another one of those "despite the fact that they have specific reasons or beliefs for supporting their viewpoint, we're just going to slap a negative label on them to promote our own beliefs versus an idealized version of theirs, since "pro-life" and "anti-life" provoke that much more violent imagery in a shorter span of time."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animals that can breed can provide for their young but a 12 year old girl can't get a job and cannot properly care for children. Animals don't need sex education to teach children what they are doing. Animals don't have sex for pleasure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed on everything - though I'm not sure about the last. I could swear I've read that some animals do - dolphins masturbate against rocks and such, while other animals engage in homosexual promiscuous behavior (though I couldn't say whether they're *trying* to have a baby or just having fun...).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm ok with it, but I'm not a mod. Is it one of those videos that tries to shock people into becoming pro-life by showing them how gross an abortion procedure is?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on that note, is it going to be like Michael Moore's films, where the majority of the "facts" given are either adjusted at will or fabricated outright?
Contraception stops any foetus being formed. Abortion kills a foetus and stops its chance from growing, and being born into a human baby.
I don't mind if you post the video but all it will do is persuade people who haven't given it much thought. A large proportion of people you could class pro-choice are actually people who just haven't thought about it so they've taken the PC view. You can sway them to think anything.
I guarentee it won't change my view as my belief in 'pro-choice' isn't based on "well you can't really call it a human". I'm happy to pretend it is human from conception if you want although I don't think it is, it would make no difference as the mother comes first.
All it will do is guilt trip people, not an argument that can sway.
Stop being patronising. I am not trying to guilt trip people, but to show em the reaction of the foetus, as most of the -excuse the lable- pro choice people see it as a non human, i want to show them just how human and baby like the foetuses reaction is.
Athena, no it is not a fact filled movie, its just one particular clip i woudl like people to see... as i posted just before
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's true. But I meant that if it would severly hurt the mother's body. Say, for some reason, she can't carry the baby until it's formed enough to be removed by a C-section. There may not be many cases like this, but surely they happen. In this case, would you condone an abortion?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Murder is illegal, not because it's immoral, but because society functions better as a result.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that it's homicide that is illegal. Meaning that it's illegal to accidentally crush someone with a forklift or try to kill yourself, I believe. (Homicide being killing humans, murder is killing humans with malice.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Athena+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Athena)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->while other animals engage in homosexual promiscuous behavior (though I couldn't say whether they're *trying* to have a baby or just having fun...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to get too off-topic, but I believe that homosexuality is a way to cull the population. When an animal gets too crowded together, some turn to homosexuality, because there are too many of that animal. I could be wrong. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> [EDIT:] By the way... If you want to debate this, please send me a PM or an IM or something, I don't want to steer this thread horribly off-topic.
I also think if the couples out there knew that Abortion wasnt a viable option if they made a mistake, then they would be more crefull in using contraception.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this at all. Taking a year off school is not something is so easy to do. Its even harder if you ability to work is impacted by your pregnancy. Even if she still can work through most of the pregnancy, that doesn't mean she can actually support herself. If I lost my student loans (which dropping below a full time student would do) there is no way that i could cover rent, bills, and food with my job, not to mention doctor bills and such. Which brings up another problem, if your in school, you can still be on your parents insurance or the schools. If your not you have to find your own insurance, which is really expensive. Without insurance, your pretty much screwed hen it comes to getting access to doctors, needed medication, even reasonably safe accommodations for having the child. Socialized medicine would help his of course, but thats a long ways off here in the states.
Secondly a year off school can really screw up your academic life. If you got pregnant during a semester (fairly likely), how well do you think you could do during the rest of that semester? If you drop out, your still stuck with the bill, with nothing to show for it. After a year, most colleges require you to reapply, and it will be harder to get in if you dropped out recently, or got lower grades. Hopefully the admission board would be understanding about your circumstances, but its not by any means guaranteed.
Sure she can carry on, but how well? How much has she lost because abortion wasn't an option?
Beyond that, it appears that you think that if a woman wants an abortion she or her partner has to have made some massive mistake that means she deserves all the problems she now has to deal with. I don't think this is the case. Contraceptives are not all that reliable. If used properly their close, but there are still so many things that can go wrong. Condoms break. Maybe her partner didn't know how to put it on right. Maybe she forgot to take the pill one day. I have to take a medication every day, and I know I sure as hell forget sometimes, don't even realize it sometimes, until the end of the prescription and I have an extra dose or two. Other forms of contraceptives are even less reliable. At any rate, things can go wrong for reasons completely beyond her control, is that still making a mistake?
Add in this like alcohol and drugs, and the possibility for something going wrong is even higher. Granted, one loses some of the ability to say "well this was beyond my control", but I still feel that this is important to point out. Just because you choose to use one of these substances, doesn't mean you should have to sign away a year of your life. I don't like using it as an excuse for my behavior, but in a realistic world, one has to take this into consideration. I can't tell you how many times I've woken up and though "Why the **** did I do that?". Its even worse if your trying something for the first time you try something. You really don't know what its going to do to you, so how can you really responsibly prepare for it.
Now the obvious response to that is, "well, you chose to do that its your fault if anything bad happens". As I said before, I don't like using it as an excuse. But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, a society is judged by how it treats the unwanted in a society. Well in our society drug users, and to a lesser degree people who use alcohol more than moderately are some of the most vilified people. Never mind that something like a quarter of our high school children use drugs, and a really large chunk of people use alcohol (and of course the social pressures involved in using both, and the media's portrayal of coolness based of use of these things). We are the unwanted in this society, the fringe, the "underground". What does it say about the society that you want to produce if we are to punished harshly (this particular gripe goes beyond the scope of unwanted pregnancies, but to bring that up would be way off topic), if are unable to redeem ourselves?
Finally, as I said before, concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of this is pointless. Its not a question that can be answered universally, as it depends on some basic personal definitions of the world around you, such as if there is a such a thing as a soul, and what it means to be aware, etc. And even if you answer these questions the same as another person, doesn't mean that you'll come to an conclusion. I believe in a soul, but still support abortion. Ultimately this is the real sticky point in the matter, it depends so much on your personal outlook on life. Thats why the government should not step and ban it. If you don't allow for people to make up their own minds on the matter, your forcing them to conform to someone else's ideas, beliefs. And given how important religion can be in this argument, thats a direct invasion of the freedom of religion, in my opinion.
Sure, you make a mistake you live with the consequences. The mistake might not be entirely theirs, so if they cant take care of it give it to adoption centre or foster care.
Instead of the NHS spending money on free abortons, they should spend it on educating the youth so as to minmise the risk of unwanted conception. Tbh pill + uterine cap + condom = almost 99.9% coverage against "mistakes"
finaly concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of it is NOT pointless. We can not have a free for all we have to have some norms for when we can call it human. TBH after seeing the video, im quite sure the foetus is human well before the stipulated 24 weeks, it was 11 weeks.
Oh and comparing foetuses to worms? gg distancing people.
Sex education is taught in schools. At least, it was when I was going through school...
Stop being patronising. I am not trying to guilt trip people, but to show em the reaction of the foetus, as most of the -excuse the lable- pro choice people see it as a non human, i want to show them just how human and baby like the foetuses reaction is.
Athena, no it is not a fact filled movie, its just one particular clip i woudl like people to see... as i posted just before
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only real part i want to show people is the bit of the baby/foetus wrigling away from the instruments (viewed in a sonogram) You can even mute it, to stop any unwanted propaganda etc, i just want people to see what they are condeming them to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't trying to be patronising at all so I'm sorry if you took it that way. However, trying to convince us it's human = trying to prove to us its infanticide = guilt trip.
Thank God the President of the United States of America is against educating the youth. I'd rather have free abortions than a system that doesn't educate teens and discourages contraception. Also, 99.9% means that in a nation of 300 million, 300 thousand people (60,000 in the UK) would have unsuccessful birth control and would be vulnerable to an unwanted pregnancy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->finaly concentrating on the "when is it a baby?" aspect of it is NOT pointless. We can not have a free for all we have to have some norms for when we can call it human. TBH after seeing the video, im quite sure the foetus is human well before the stipulated 24 weeks, it was 11 weeks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is pointless to concentrate on when a fetus turns into a baby. There's no way to reach a consensus. Some say that a fetus turns into a baby at conception, others say at the moment it attains consciousness or at the moment it is viable outside the womb, or even at birth. Of course, the whole abortion debate is reduced to the moment a fetus turns into a baby, so I guess the whole debate is pointless.
Also, either link us to a video file, describe the video in depth, or stop talking about it. Saying that a video convinced you doesn't mean much to us when we don't know what the contents of the video are.
Yeah, because if we tell teens the risks associated with sex enough times there will never be an unwanted pregnancy...
No, that' doesn't fix the problem.
As <b>theclam</b> said, no matter the situation, the argument is going to hinge on whether you see a fetus as a mass of non-sentient cells or a human being, since we can all probably agree that killing people is wrong (YMMV).
What about the Man's right to "abort"? Should a father be able to abort his legal responsibility to the child in the case where he feels he is "not ready"?
After all, in a case where the father is supporting the mother it could be argued that the Man's body is essentialy supporting the baby via work.
No, we can all agree that killing people is wrong unless there are extenuating circumstances. I believe that still being inside their mother and unable to be seperated counts as 'extenuating'. Then it doesn't matter when it becomes a person.
My dad is "pro-life." He used to go to the Planned Parenthood and protest against abortions. My mom always wanted more kids so one day she tells my dad that next time he goes to protest, he should offer to pay the woman's medical bills and my family would adopt the kid. My dad, however, did not want more kids and refused to do so. When pushed on this, he said that taking care of the kid wasn't his problem.
Now, is this really pro-life? I would argue it's not.
To me, there are 4 groups in this debate: pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-choice, and pro-abortion.
Here is how I define those:
Pro-life are against abortion and would do anything to save the kids, including adopting and supporting them. Anti-abortion people, which I include my dad in, don't give a crap about the kid, just are morally against abortions. Pro-choice may or may not support abortion, but believe in the right to choose. And pro-abortion are just how they sound, they think abortion is a good thing.
I'm personally pro-choice. I don't believe in abortion, but it's not my place to tell someone they have to potentially ruin their life and/or health.
So here's my challenge. Anyone in this thread who is proclaiming to be pro-life, I want you to swear before God or whatever diety you believe in, that rather than just talk against it, you will take real action and monetarily and emotionally support ANYONE who wants an abortion in order to prevent said abortion, and then actually follow through and do that. I want you to actually do something to save the kid rather than just spouting off useless rhetoric.
One final thought before I go. If anyone who is pro-life here says they can't financially aid a potentail aborter, how can you justify spending money on your computer and video games but not to save a kid?
The clam, if you want to use figures...
There are not 300mill people in States who are capable of having children. Lets say tops 80 mill, 25mill in Brittain.
In the world 46 million abortions are conducted each year, 20 million illegaly. If abortion was made illegal except for thoes exemptions stated in the first post, abortions would drop to lets say 25million (including legal ones due to extrenuating circumstances) Couple this with more higher quality education in all parts of the world (if it is top class in the states it deffinately isnt top class all over the world), the figure drops to lets say 10-15 million. Add better resources for adoption + foster care and maybe people would decide to not have an abortion lets say 10 million illegal abortions take place. Add stricter enforcement of allyway-clinics and increase jailterm for it, and the figure drops to hopefully below 10 mill? 5 mill maybe?
So all in all only 5 million humans-to be are killed. This does not mean there is an increased number of unwanted babies due to the better education for contraceptive measures.
Aprox 1.3 million abortions in the states a year the above methods could drop it to 13000 abortions (legal + illegal) a year.
The problem with numbers is that thousands are a tragedy, millions are a statistic. Again a tool often used for desensitising humans
I said earlier if all the funds giving free abortions were put toward education, not just at schools, then there would be a reduced number of unwanted pregnancies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My dad is "pro-life." He used to go to the Planned Parenthood and protest against abortions. My mom always wanted more kids so one day she tells my dad that next time he goes to protest, he should offer to pay the woman's medical bills and my family would adopt the kid. My dad, however, did not want more kids and refused to do so. When pushed on this, he said that taking care of the kid wasn't his problem.
Now, is this really pro-life? I would argue it's not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes he is, he cares about the life of the unborn baby. He doesnt want its mother to decide that she can kill it just because she has the choice to, whatever her problems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One final thought before I go. If anyone who is pro-life here says they can't financially aid a potentail aborter, how can you justify spending money on your computer and video games but not to save a kid? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are joking right? You think that a kid costs about as much as looking after a computer + a few games? So because of the irresponsible mistake/nievity of some people i should look after the kid?Hell no!
Oh...wait... we already do, Taxes (very high in the uk) The money collected (billions worldwide) are used to enforce and enplace great foster care and adoption scheams. So while i do not raise the kid myself, i do pay towards its maintenence, everyone does.This applys to your dad too.Or anyone in society who pays taxes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't believe in abortion, but it's not my place to tell someone they have to potentially ruin their life and/or health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*immagines you in a hostage situation, you being the negotiator* "So go ahead, kill her, i cant tell you what to do, im againstr what you are doing but i cant tell you what to do. Im pro-choice*
<!--QuoteBegin-Cmeast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cmeast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe that still being inside their mother and <b>unable to be seperated </b> counts as 'extenuating'. Then it doesn't matter when it becomes a person. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, yes they can be separated and survive at 24 weeks (youngest ever recorded premature baby was at 21 1/2 weeks) they only need an incubator untill lungs start producing surfactant, then they can breath on their own. So you saying the mother can abort a day before she is due to deliver is...bleh <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
At least put back your cut off point to 24 weeks like most pro-choice.. coz that is frankly shocking.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats what the pro-life people want right? more babies?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No we want the stopping of killing of innocent babies, not more babies.