Recent Bans From Cal-ns
Pain_User
Join Date: 2005-03-29 Member: 46848Members
Join Date: 2005-03-29 Member: 46848Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why is there any controversy?</div> Recently there has been an unbelievable amount of hype and controversy surrounding the recent CAL-Delta bans of Minstrel and Anubis. I just wanted to give some people a more clarified presentation of the facts to see if we can end this once and for all.
After numerous debates the defense argument from the banned users seems to be:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, just another opportunity for console members to try and get at me some way. This whole ban issue is still unresolved and I still don't know why. '3rd party programs' is kinda vague' I'm trying to find out whats going on myself wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quotes from them generally follow along the lines of:
"I have no idea why they banned me"
"Third party programs seems rather vague"
"What if I was just running winamp, thats a third party program"
"I had s4=pige0n in my config so long ago, I was just testing out the cheat in a listen server"
-All of this is based off completely anecdotal logic and there is no hard evidence.
The Pro-Ban argument seems to consist of:
Amnesiac has come on the Exigent Ventrilo and admitted to using cheats on multiple occasions. He also claimed it is hilarious how CAL admits don't do anything about the cheats he has been using. (I have not been present but several of my trusted members have testified to me about this) He also linked us to this screenshot: <img src='http://www.team-exigent.net/downloads/nsveil.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I know screenshots can be forged however the three Reflect members in the image testified to the kills taking place. Seems legitimate to me... He was banned for "Usage of third party programs" which doesn't seem very "vague" to me in any usage of the word. Pertaining to CAL third party programs are programs which alter the game, so he clearly wasn't banned for running winamp. Furthermore, neither of them were banned for having a specific setinfo... Using s4=pige0n as a defense argument has absolutely no relation to the bans at hand.
The bottom line is that they are guilty until proven innocent and the approach they are taking to alleviate this ban simply won't cut it. If you were truly innocent you would have a much more powerful argument or maybe some tangible evidence.
After numerous debates the defense argument from the banned users seems to be:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, just another opportunity for console members to try and get at me some way. This whole ban issue is still unresolved and I still don't know why. '3rd party programs' is kinda vague' I'm trying to find out whats going on myself wink-fix.gif<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quotes from them generally follow along the lines of:
"I have no idea why they banned me"
"Third party programs seems rather vague"
"What if I was just running winamp, thats a third party program"
"I had s4=pige0n in my config so long ago, I was just testing out the cheat in a listen server"
-All of this is based off completely anecdotal logic and there is no hard evidence.
The Pro-Ban argument seems to consist of:
Amnesiac has come on the Exigent Ventrilo and admitted to using cheats on multiple occasions. He also claimed it is hilarious how CAL admits don't do anything about the cheats he has been using. (I have not been present but several of my trusted members have testified to me about this) He also linked us to this screenshot: <img src='http://www.team-exigent.net/downloads/nsveil.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> I know screenshots can be forged however the three Reflect members in the image testified to the kills taking place. Seems legitimate to me... He was banned for "Usage of third party programs" which doesn't seem very "vague" to me in any usage of the word. Pertaining to CAL third party programs are programs which alter the game, so he clearly wasn't banned for running winamp. Furthermore, neither of them were banned for having a specific setinfo... Using s4=pige0n as a defense argument has absolutely no relation to the bans at hand.
The bottom line is that they are guilty until proven innocent and the approach they are taking to alleviate this ban simply won't cut it. If you were truly innocent you would have a much more powerful argument or maybe some tangible evidence.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Other than that, I dont care.
All we have is anecdotes, circumstantial evidence for some and utterly inconclusive things for others. I don't doubt that there might have been good reason for the bans, but don't be surprised that with the situation as its presented I'm not rock-solidly convinced.
think about the e-respect you get from your fellow peers
to create more drama <3?
oh well. back to playing <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I pruned the spam, kept what I thought was the most on topic. This topic is now open. Please do not take advantage of the opportunity to be constructive.
Thanks for re-opening this. I don't believe that this can really be settled with the amount of information currently made available to the public. Chances are that this will remain unsettled. I've had a fascination with ban cases ever since the whole mosis drama unfolded, which I feel was very badly handled.
The portion of Pain User's quote shows the problem with the situation. The CAL admins determine what evidence and what arguments are valid in making their verdicts about the players in question.
However, from what I have gathered so far, the evidence that they used is insufficient to conclude that the players cheated. This suggests that they are in some way biased in making these decisions.
All they have is a screenshot and commentry from a ventrillo session. Both could easily be forged to make the person in question look like a cheater (yes, by the same person). It is agreeable that it is strange for somebody to boast about cheating, but the point is that this and a screenshot is not enough to convict.
At the same time, what the players in question can produce in their defence is often at or below the level of what the CAL admins can produce for their prosecution. It is hard to defend yourself against vague cheating accusations.
Take a look at the section in CAL rules about cheating <a href='http://caleague.com/?page=rules#8.30' target='_blank'>here</a>. Note the lack of definition for "cheating" and the lack of boundaries. In other words, how the cheating accusations may extend into pub play, and so on. These deficiencies are used by the CAL admins to draw conclusions that do not have strong foundations.
I'm in no way saying that CAL is evil or is after certain players. All I am saying is that the way that they handle and respond to cheating accusations is not wise.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the screenshot posted before has absolutely nothing to do with either of the bans.
That is not what was used in the admins decision to ban Photek and Anubis.
Procedure for deciding if someone is cheating:
1) Evidence is sent to one of the admins.
2) Every admin looks at the evidence, and decides if they believe the person was cheating.
3) Action is taken: person is suspended, put on a watch list (if the admins are unsure), or the case is dismissed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At the same time, what the players in question can produce in their defence is often at or below the level of what the CAL admins can produce for their prosecution. It is hard to defend yourself against vague cheating accusations. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is absolutely no reason that someone who has been banned should produce a "defense". The only defense a person can have is lack of evidence, and there wascertainly no lack.
Procedure for deciding if someone is cheating:
1) Evidence is sent to one of the admins.
2) Every admin looks at the evidence, and decides if they believe the person was cheating.
3) Action is taken: person is suspended, put on a watch list (if the admins are unsure), or the case is dismissed.
There is absolutely no reason that someone who has been banned should produce a "defense". The only defense a person can have is lack of evidence, and there wascertainly no lack. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's nice. So basically what we have is a situation where we get to suck down more of the following:
"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."
–George W. Bush, Oct. 7, 2002
Saddam's response was something like: We do not have any of these things.
"We have evidence that Photek was cheating. It is completely clear."
-CAL-NS
The response of the player is...
It is quite obvious wherein lies the controversy.
<CAL-ns|Hsu> hey
<CAL-ns|Hsu> you there?
<Amnesiac> yeah
<CAL-ns|Hsu> alright
<CAL-ns|Hsu> can i ask you something?
<Amnesiac> sure, what about?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> have you ever run buzzhook/nshook? do you know any member in your clan who has?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> in matches/scrims/pubs
<Amnesiac> i thought i've explained this to you before
<Amnesiac> yes, i do. like i siad the setinfo is in my demo that i submitted to you
<Amnesiac> i wasn't actually running buzz though...as you can see by the demo
<Amnesiac> i downloaded it back when i was in morbid
<CAL-ns|Hsu> do you know anything about people inyour clan?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> do they run it?
<Amnesiac> no
<CAL-ns|Hsu> let me confirm this. i heard from someone that you guys talked about using buzzhook during your match against obs and also talked about what a huge joke CAL is
<CAL-ns|Hsu> is this false?
<Amnesiac> no one used any hack during obs vs xen
<CAL-ns|Hsu> can you explain why anubis also has it in his setinfo?
<Amnesiac> no i cant. his story didint make sence to me either
<Amnesiac> he said he used to play tfc and quake alot
<CAL-ns|Hsu> im also aware that CDD exists so you can run hacks on CD servers
<Amnesiac> ive never heard of cdd
<CAL-ns|Hsu> so let me explain
<Amnesiac> pl
<CAL-ns|Hsu> i have 3 demos of you from a while back as well as a recent demo. the people who submitted it to me say that you were aimbotting in them
<CAL-ns|Hsu> 1 of them was pretty legit. 2 of them had a few moments where it was suspicious
<CAL-ns|Hsu> anubis has one of him on a pub doing some weird things
<Amnesiac> yes
<Amnesiac> taken last night?
<Amnesiac> i was pubbing with him
<CAL-ns|Hsu> yes that one
<CAL-ns|Hsu> yeah i saw
<Amnesiac> if you want, i can load up buzz right now and show yo uwhat an aimbot looks like
<Amnesiac> cause that sir, is not an aimbot.
<Amnesiac> im being 100% honest here.
<CAL-ns|Hsu><b> i know. ive run a few aimbots in the past as well. maybe not the same ones but im well aware what happens when someone uses a aimbot</b>
<Amnesiac> ive NEVEVER used buzz in a match/scrim
<CAL-ns|Hsu> ok
<Amnesiac> yes
<CAL-ns|Hsu> ive had a great season so far in CAL
<Amnesiac> i have used it privately
<CAL-ns|Hsu> so i really watn to trust you on this
<CAL-ns|Hsu> now
<Amnesiac> well dont you?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> this is what i want you to do
<CAL-ns|Hsu> have you anubis and minstrel reinstall ns
<CAL-ns|Hsu> get that setinfo out
<CAL-ns|Hsu> <b>if you hacked, i dont care, dont do it anymore</b>
<CAL-ns|Hsu> play a honest game
<Amnesiac> i dont play this game just for the **** of it
<CAL-ns|Hsu> i know
<CAL-ns|Hsu> because i know you've played a lot longer than a lot of the guys currently playing
<CAL-ns|Hsu> but
<CAL-ns|Hsu> there is a lot of **** going around for your clan
<Amnesiac> yes, iam aware
<CAL-ns|Hsu> if i dont hear another complain about xen hacking in a pub/match/scrim
<CAL-ns|Hsu><b> i wont do anything</b>
<CAL-ns|Hsu><b>and you wont get in trouble</b>
<Amnesiac> could you tell me which 3 demos of me you have?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> if i see one demo that im convinced about though, its pretty much over
<Amnesiac> are they scrims/matche....whats?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> Amnesiac, i have a 2 pub demos back when you were named photek
<CAL-ns|Hsu> before xen
<CAL-ns|Hsu> it was on tanith
<CAL-ns|Hsu> not much else i know about it
<CAL-ns|Hsu> it was sitting around for a while on my compuer
<CAL-ns|Hsu> *computer
<CAL-ns|Hsu> you know what happens when we find a hacker in a match right?
<Amnesiac> d3stroy3d!
<Amnesiac> no, actually i dont
<Amnesiac> no, actually i dont
<Amnesiac> i guess banned for 6 months?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> no
<CAL-ns|Hsu> you get banned for a year
<CAL-ns|Hsu> your team gets suspended from CAL until they remove you from roster
<CAL-ns|Hsu> all your scores get overturned
<CAL-ns|Hsu> so if you win 2-0 your opponent gets a 2-0 win instead
<Amnesiac> hmm
<Amnesiac> well could you do me one tiny favour?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> and that would be?
<Amnesiac> upload those 3 demos to our ftp
<Amnesiac> i wanna watch them
<Amnesiac> i gave you the info the other day, but if you need it again i can give it to you
<CAL-ns|Hsu> cant' do that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> we're pretty much garenteeing privacy in these things
<Amnesiac> hmm
<CAL-ns|Hsu> if you submitted a demo i dont think you would enjoy it if i told the hacker that you took the demo
<Amnesiac> so whats to say someone was smurfing and hacking under photek?
<CAL-ns|Hsu> the steamid matches the one you currently have
Session Start: Fri Jun 24 20:01:10 2005
Session Ident: CAL-ns|Hsu
[20:01] Session Ident: CAL-ns|Hsu (~zephor@ip68-225-12-110.pv.oc.cox.net)
[20:01] <CAL-ns|Hsu> hi?
[20:01] <tony_harrow> you busy right now?
[20:01] <tony_harrow> i wanted to talk about my ban
[20:02] <CAL-ns|Hsu> well i have to go in a sec...im really not at liberty to talk about the ban though
[20:02] <tony_harrow> well, i think there is a little bit of backstory to this.
[20:02] <tony_harrow> you and i both know i dont hack, so i wanna get things straight
[20:02] <tony_harrow> so just let me know when please
[20:03] <CAL-ns|Hsu> type it out. ill read it when i get back but honestly. it wasn't just my decision. we had over 5 people think it over
[20:03] <tony_harrow> well
[20:03] <tony_harrow> i recall you 'reviewing' my demo with brad
[20:03] <tony_harrow> and you both came to the conclusion that i wasnt hacking
[20:04] <tony_harrow> besides that demo vs obs i dont know what it is you have that shows me using 3rd party programs illegally
[20:04] <tony_harrow> i still have our conversation logged so i can back this up if need be.
[20:04] <tony_harrow> anyways, you mentioed to me that you we're going to put all the allegations and what not in the pass IF i reinstall and 'stay low' for the rest of the season
[20:05] <tony_harrow> Yes, i'm guilty of having cloud ring in a match
[20:05] <tony_harrow> No im not guilty of hacking
[20:05] <tony_harrow> I woulndt be questioning this if my suspension was for that instead of hacking
[20:06] <tony_harrow> So I just wanted to clear up exactly whats going on
[20:06] <tony_harrow> and what evidence you have of me hacking
[20:07] <tony_harrow> Because as far as im concerned. I've shop lifted and i'm going to jail for 3rd degree murder, so theres something a little twisted about that
[20:07] <tony_harrow> sorry if my analogy there isn't helping or not
[20:07] <tony_harrow> but i think im being punished for something i havent done
[20:08] <tony_harrow> im a very reputable member of the natural selection compettive community
[20:08] <tony_harrow> i run nsl
[20:08] <tony_harrow> i think that gives me SOME credibility
[20:08] <tony_harrow> not to mention i've been completley honest with you from day 1
[20:08] <tony_harrow> and like i said earlier, i have the logs of our previous conversations if need be so you dont go back on your word.
[20:09] <tony_harrow> anyways, i should be on for the rest of the night so please msg me back when you have the time
[20:09] <tony_harrow> thanks.
Session Time: Sat Jun 25 00:00:00 2005
[15:41] <amnesiac> hello
[15:41] No such nick
Session Start: Sun Jun 26 15:16:44 2005
Session Ident: CAL-ns|Hsu
[15:16] <amnesiac> hsu
[19:01] <amnesiac> Hsu...
[19:12] <amnesiac> Are you just going to keep ignoring my private messages?
[19:12] <amnesiac> I've been messaging you frequently for the past 2 days...
Session Close: Sun Jun 26 19:16:21 2005
afaik, amnesiac is still yet to know what exacly he was banned for. yes, 3rd party programs. but i've heard it was for bypassing cd and i've also heard it was for aimbotting and blackwalling. so there is little to no confirmation.
Saying that CAL is the biggest and most talented NS league, so players will go there. If something new and more popular came about, the NS community and competetive gamers in particular might be on level terms with each other.
Obviously there is quite a bit of conterversy. and probably a whole lot that's being kept under wraps.
And CAL does not release the evidence for the sake of protecting the submitters.
If you submitted a demo of your own clanmate hacking, wouldn't you want it to be kept private?
Alvin and Brad were both involved with the situation before the left afaik. And Jeremy, Josh and Hsu were the active admins at the time of the banning.
CAL's bans aren't up for dispute, they are what they are.
Basically, by not releasing the demos, you achieve the following:
1. The player in question, the accused, does not know why he is being accused.
2. You do not have to justify your actions. All you have to do is just say that you have substantial evidence.
3. You" protect" the person who submitted the evidence. The public has no way of knowing whether that evidence is valid or a a bunch of nonsense, or if it even exists.
You keep repeating that CAL's ban was valid and is not up for dispute. It does not defeat the argument that whatever process led to the ban was corrupted in one way or another. It really doesn't matter if it is up for dispute or not. What matters is that your credibility is low as long as you do not explain why you want to decrease the playercount in the competitive scene even further.
Basically this is similar to the tactics used by the <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo' target='_blank'>Gestapo</a>, the German Secret Police if you will, in the time of the Nazi rule, or the USSR's NKVD. Take people away without disclosing the reason behind it.
Since CAL is not a democracy, there's nothing wrong with you doing this since the only thing that may force you to change your methods is if everybody boycotted the league - which is unlikely since not enough people care --- yet.
Basically, by not releasing the demos, you achieve the following:
1. The player in question, the accused, does not know why he is being accused.
2. You do not have to justify your actions. All you have to do is just say that you have substantial evidence.
3. You" protect" the person who submitted the evidence. The public has no way of knowing whether that evidence is valid or a a bunch of nonsense, or if it even exists.
You keep repeating that CAL's ban was valid and is not up for dispute. It does not defeat the argument that whatever process led to the ban was corrupted in one way or another. It really doesn't matter if it is up for dispute or not. What matters is that your credibility is low as long as you do not explain why you want to decrease the playercount in the competitive scene even further.
Basically this is similar to the tactics used by the <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo' target='_blank'>Gestapo</a>, the German Secret Police if you will, in the time of the Nazi rule, or the USSR's NKVD. Take people away without disclosing the reason behind it.
Since CAL is not a democracy, there's nothing wrong with you doing this since the only thing that may force you to change your methods is if everybody boycotted the league - which is unlikely since not enough people care --- yet. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. They do, but will not openly admit to it.
2. True, as does every other competitive gaming league
3. True
The credibility of cal has always been high imo. Or else bans would be thrown left and right. The sheer amount of demos that come in to us is insane.
Also, the playercount has steadily increased since season 4. Season 5 has been regarded as a success, and probably one of the best seasons cal-ns has seen. The clan numbers were on a decline until Hsu started getting more involved.
As to the comparison with the Gestapo, it's not <i>only</i> cal-ns' policy. It's the rest of CAL, and most other gaming leagues.
If the people that submitted evidence wanted to come out and openly share it, they're welcome to, but not encouraged to do so.
Honestly, there is no need to "protect" the accusers, as this is the internet. No one is going to be whacked or gangbanged over a recorded demo.
And yes, you may say it isn't serious - depending on how you define that word. It is the internet, it is a game. Nevertheless, it isn't fair to the individuals who get convicted under the "guilty until proven innocent" clause or "guilty because we said so" clause.
Wouldn't be too nice for the admin's credibility if the demo came from one of the admins themselves and turned out to be a fraud huh.
The amount of hypocrisy makes me want to cry. More evidence to proove me innocent.