Nadagast... this is where the OT got the great flood story from.
<a href='http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM' target='_blank'>Source, (school site, .edu)</a> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We know very little about the early Semitic religions, but the Semites that invaded Mesopotamia seem to have completely abandoned their religion in favor of Sumerian religion.
Sumerian religion was polytheistic, that is, the Sumerians believed in and worshipped many gods. These gods were incredibly powerful and anthropomorphic, that is, they resembled humans. Many of these gods controlled natural forces and were associated with astronomical bodies, such as the sun. The gods were creator gods; as a group, they had created the world and the people in it.
Like humans, they suffered all the ravages of human emotional and spiritual frailties: love, lust, hatred, anger, regret. Among the gods' biggest regrets was the creation of human life; the Sumerians believed that these gods regretted the creation of human life and sent a flood to destroy their faulty creation, but one man survived by building a boat.
While the destruction of the earth in a great flood is nearly universal in all human mythology and religion, we can't be sure if the Semites had a similar story or took it over from the Sumerians.
This is, of course, a question of contemporary significance: according to Genesis, the originator of the Hebrew race, the patriarch Abraham, originally came from the city of Ur. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care where it got the story from, I want to know how it's actually possible.
Answer questions like Where did all the water come from? If the water was a) fresh, then how did salt water fish survive? b) salty, then how did freshwater fish survive? What did carnivores eat right after they got off the boat? For example, if the 2 Lions ate one of the deer, the deer species would die out. I have plenty more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also to quote from Wikipedia: (about Pascal's Wager) "Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
1. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in the Bible, or 2. no God exists.
The wager does not rule out the possibility that there is a God who, rather than behaving as stated in certain parts of the bible, instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, or rewards honest reasoning and punishes feigned faith. Also, in the many human societies where belief in a particular religion is rewarded by economic and social benefits, the wager permits the hidden addition of such benefits to the wager, and many memeticists (those who work with concept of the meme) believe that this forms much of the unconscious core of religious belief."
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't care where it got the story from, I want to know how it's actually possible.
Answer questions like Where did all the water come from? If the water was a) fresh, then how did salt water fish survive? b) salty, then how did freshwater fish survive? What did carnivores eat right after they got off the boat? For example, if the 2 Lions ate one of the deer, the deer species would die out. I have plenty more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also to quote from Wikipedia: (about Pascal's Wager) "Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
1. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in the Bible, or 2. no God exists.
The wager does not rule out the possibility that there is a God who, rather than behaving as stated in certain parts of the bible, instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, or rewards honest reasoning and punishes feigned faith. Also, in the many human societies where belief in a particular religion is rewarded by economic and social benefits, the wager permits the hidden addition of such benefits to the wager, and many memeticists (those who work with concept of the meme) believe that this forms much of the unconscious core of religious belief." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well.. scientifically it isn't possible unless there was a massive ice meteor that hit earth, (basically the same size of the one that created the gulf of mexico) and a human had prior knowledge of it.
Back with Noah was alive, that wasn't fesible. :-)
I don't get into the the whole animals two by two thing.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok so we have destroyed the literal interpretation of the bible right there then?
Once you say that one part of the book is false it detracts from the credibility of the whole. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is how logically people look at it, yes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Question for Christians: I believe that Christianity says that babies are born in sin, and therefore need to be baptised/give in to Christ/whatever, before they can go to Heaven. Is this correct? If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven. After a certain age, one would expect that people could understand the concepts so they would be held accoutable. There is not a specific age of accoutabilty and it's different for each person.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many logical errors and just plain bad arguments from the religious people in this thread it's ridiculous.
One of them... Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on. and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wanna reply to any of this KungFu?
Nadagast, all the things you are birnging up have been discussed before. Especially wether or not the ark was possible, the conclusion by everybody but the literalists: not a chance. But that doesn't matter to the believers, because they believe in spite of evidence to the contrary. Its one of those elements of faith, belief in something even though it can't be true, that I don't understand.
There is a long detailed thread on Noah's Ark that already went through all the arguments from both sides, if you really wan't to know where the christians stand you can search for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If thats true, then why not kill babies as soon as they are born (better yet: abort it)? If you honestly believe that, then the baby will be sure to go to heaven. Of course, you'll be condemned to hell, but would you rather be selfish and let that baby live and possible go to hell just because you yourself are so afraid of it? Hell, you might not even need to go to hell. You might get away with it because you've accepted christ and your sins are already forgiven.
I could go on, but this thread isn't about these sorts of hypothetical questions. Its about interpretation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Mar 28 2005, 02:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 28 2005, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can criticize my beliefs, but you can't change them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What an awful, <b>awful, <i>awful,</i></b> attitude. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's true, though. It usually takes more than a discussion to change something so integral to a person. Otherwise, I'd be a Christian (if I was wrong, I wouldn't lose much).
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many logical errors and just plain bad arguments from the religious people in this thread it's ridiculous.
One of them... Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on. and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I would believe Islam is false.
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, frankly, if they weren't such bad arguemtns we might be willing to consider them. Hell, Ageri even called one explaination, presented by Marine01 IIRC, "actually plausable".
The thread is out there, all you have to do is search. No point in discussing it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Legion, your going to have to answer my question about where murder is defined and why that still applies when something like this doesn't.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 31 2005, 02:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 31 2005, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Question for Christians: I believe that Christianity says that babies are born in sin, and therefore need to be baptised/give in to Christ/whatever, before they can go to Heaven. Is this correct? If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven. After a certain age, one would expect that people could understand the concepts so they would be held accoutable. There is not a specific age of accoutabilty and it's different for each person. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Bible doesn't teach an age of accountability - though it is a happy, touchy - feely idea (think of teh children!!).
The Bible does teach that God is merciful, and that his ways are above our ways. To those Christians who have children that die young - to them God makes promises that they can take to heart for comfort. Their children - by the promise of God - will be waiting in heaven.
For those that do not profess Christs name, to them God does not make promises. What hope do they have for their children when their own salvation is in question?
What the Bible does teach is that God knows his own, and calls them each by name. Perhaps, in his mercy, infants are saved - not by virtue of their own "innocents" - but rather by the merciful nature of God (as we are all saved). On the other hand, would these infants be saved if their own parents are praying to a false god for their souls?
I guess ultimatly, we don't know. To assume that yes, God does save all infants presumes too much (and would cause many to become pro-abortion). To say God saves none is to presume too little and paints God as heartless.
Pepe Muffassa: Yeah I should have pointed out that the Bible doesn't teach an age of accoutability but that many believe in one. Thanks for explaining that better.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Mar 28 2005, 02:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Mar 28 2005, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can criticize my beliefs, but you can't change them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What an awful, <b>awful, <i>awful,</i></b> attitude.
Question for Christians: I believe that Christianity says that babies are born in sin, and therefore need to be baptised/give in to Christ/whatever, before they can go to Heaven. Is this correct? If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What an awful, awful, awful attitude towards God.
To think that God would send anyone to hell simply because they never had time to get water sprinkled on them... you have missed the most central aspect of the Bible: mercy.
Wait a second since when was the Flood in Noah's times impossible?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wikipedia+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wikipedia)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Critics of the account suggest that the flood was (if there truly was one), though quite large, simply a local flood that affected the Persian Gulf region. The breaching of the sill at the Strait of Hormuz is proposed as the cause: as sea level rose from glacial melt following the Ice Age, and the lower Tigris-Euphrates valley was flooded to form the Persian Gulf. There is also the explanation of the breakthrough that formed the Black Sea, which possibly ties the Turkish Ağrı Dağı (Ararat) with the biblical account.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark' target='_blank'>Noah's Ark @ Wikipedia</a>
I'm pretty sure to the people who wrote the bible, the cradle of humanity (the area surrounding the Tigris and the Euphrates) was their whole world. If just that part flooded, the authors wouldn't know any better than to label it the flooding of the planet since places like North and South America, Europe, Australia and Northern Asia were unknown to them...
[quote] [QUOTE=Cold NiTe,Mar 31 2005, 04:40 PM] Wait a second since when was the Flood in Noah's times impossible?
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]Critics of the account suggest that the flood was (if there truly was one), though quite large, simply a local flood that affected the Persian Gulf region. The breaching of the sill at the Strait of Hormuz is proposed as the cause: as sea level rose from glacial melt following the Ice Age, and the lower Tigris-Euphrates valley was flooded to form the Persian Gulf. There is also the explanation of the breakthrough that formed the Black Sea, which possibly ties the Turkish Ağrı Dağı (Ararat) with the biblical account.[/QUOTE] <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark' target='_blank'>Noah's Ark @ Wikipedia</a>
I'm pretty sure to the people who wrote the bible, the cradle of humanity (the area surrounding the Tigris and the Euphrates) was their whole world. If just that part flooded, the authors wouldn't know any better than to label it the flooding of the planet since places like North and South America, Europe, Australia and Northern Asia were unknown to them... [/QUOTE] [/quote] That would work Coldnite, if the flood wasn't mentioned thousand of years earlier by different people of different regions, of different religions.
I was also speaking of actually having the entire earth covered.
Noah also sailed for 40 days... that means the flood would have had to have been the size of at least the indian ocean. Again, not possible without a cataclysmic event occurring at the same time.
[quote] <b> (Wikipedia article (same page)) </b> Nearly every culture in every religion, time, and place has a global flood story, including European, African, Native American, Middle Eastern, Chinese, and Aboriginal societies [/b]
*edit* Yay for scientific searches on historical evidence of the biblical stories.
<a href='http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ark_hunt_020830.html' target='_blank'>Satellite Searching for Noah's Ark.</a>
In case those of you with short attention spans dont wish to read an objective view of how they are searching for the ark.
[quote] El-Baz recounted his conversations with former Apollo 15 moonwalker James Irwin. The astronaut, now deceased, mounted six expeditions to Mt. Ararat in a search for the ark. Those treks were done through his High Flight Foundation, a non-profit evangelical organization based in Colorado Springs.
"Irwin told me he saw something. He felt it was an imprint on the land of the boat that was turned upside down…perhaps with some soil on top. So there was something there in his mind," El-Baz said.
El-Baz himself remains true to his training, waiting for scientific data to become available and help unveil the true nature of the Ararat object.
"There is absolutely nothing in all the pictures that we have seen up to now that is questionable in my mind. I can explain each and everything as a natural snow bank…a shadow. There is nothing," El-Baz said. But given the interest and the historical nature of such a find, the search is worth conducting, he added. [/quote] Taken form the bottom of the article as to what has been found so far. Please note, the search is not over, as he states further down in the article.
There has got to be some explanation though. And no I'm not taking Mass 40 Hallucination as one. That many different cultures couldn't have recorded the same event for no reason.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us <b>why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There has got to be some explanation though. And no I'm not taking Mass 40 Hallucination as one. That many different cultures couldn't have recorded the same event for no reason.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us <b>why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I have no other proof.
To quote Chris Farley, "I could get a good look at a T-Bone by stickin' my head up a bulls butt - but, I'd rather take the butchers word for it." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Mar 31 2005, 04:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Mar 31 2005, 04:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us [b]why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for truth an bolded for emphasis. I'll have an explanation for you when I get home Cold-Nite, I don't have my bookmarked links at work. I don't rely on just one site to prove something either.
Alright, here is a nice list of all the religions (available online) that have a great flood story in them. Quick list if you wish to read through them you are more then welcome to.
Now to explain away why it isn't truth and why so many other religions have the same myth. <a href='http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html' target='_blank'>The Great Flood</a>
Just in case people do not wish to actually read.. again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> • During the Ice Age, Ryan and Pitman argue, the Black Sea was an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland.
• About 12,000 years ago, toward the end of the Ice Age, Earth began growing warmer. Vast sheets of ice that sprawled over the Northern Hemisphere began to melt. Oceans and seas grew deeper as a result.
• About 7,000 years ago the Mediterranean Sea swelled. Seawater pushed northward, slicing through what is now Turkey.
• Funneled through the narrow Bosporus, the water hit the Black Sea with 200 times the force of Niagara Falls. Each day the Black Sea rose about six inches (15 centimeters), and coastal farms were flooded.
• Seared into the memories of terrified survivors, the tale of the flood was passed down through the generations and eventually became the Noah story. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is the most popular theory on what caused the flood stories, it is simply passed down throughout all of the generations of a time when the ice caps just happened to have melted. Did it flood the earth completely. No. Did it flood quite abit, obviously the answer is yes. There was no ark, there was no "noah" there also weren't any animals that walked two by two into a huge ship.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many logical errors and just plain bad arguments from the religious people in this thread it's ridiculous.
One of them... Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on. and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I would believe Islam is false.
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are you dodging my response to 'why die for a lie?'
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuDiscoMonkey+Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Mar 31 2005, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Mar 31 2005, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So many logical errors and just plain bad arguments from the religious people in this thread it's ridiculous.
One of them... Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on. and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry for the double post.
The part about killing homosexuals was God speaking directly to someone, whose name I can't remember. It wasn't a civil law. Slavery is talked about and not condemned, which is an acception. The bible talks about how slaves should treat their masters, and vise versa. You know that... The Ark isn't possible. I'm sorry but it's just simply not a possible event in the way that it is described in the bible. I'm willing to listen to your hilarious attempts to explain it though, which is why I asked. Really, HONESTLY, PLEASE, have some self respect and at least admit that it's not possible that there was a worldwide flood and some really really old guy takes 2 of each animal on a boat. Let's have some respect for eachother ok?
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark#The_historicity_of_the_flood' target='_blank'>The historicity of the flood</a> <!--QuoteBegin-Wikipedia+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wikipedia)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Others suggest that the near-universality of the story in all cultures and times makes it much more likely that it originated in an actual, historical event. They suggest that the fact that all the stories claim the flood was universal and that only a few were left to repopulate the whole Earth makes it unlikely that the flood was regional. Of all the available accounts of the flood, they argue that the Biblical account is the most historically accurate account available, due to its good ship proportions (300x50x30), realistic scale (unlike Gilgamesh), a signifiantly greater level of detail (including dates for events and extensive genealogies for the people on the Ark), very concrete, historical, and non-mythological style (unlike the Indian story), and a more logical story progression. They argue that the other stories are accounts of the same historical event which were distorted into mythology over time, and that the Genesis account is the most historically accurate account available today.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truth of the matter is, I don't know and neither do you. You can't prove with 100% certainty that the Genesis flood never occurred just as I can't prove with 100% certainty that it did occur. This is where faith takes over.
Sadly I can actually say for a fact that that flood that is described in Gensis did not occur. If it had, we would not be speaking right now, on an internet forum. That kind of cataclysmic event would have wiped out the vast majority of life, just like the one in the gulf of mexico did, 65 million years ago.
In addition, obviously you didn't read that nation geographic article, nor the one where they are attempting to locate this "ark" yet have found nothing using sophiscated satellites orbiting earth.
<!--QuoteBegin-NolSinkler+Mar 25 2005, 07:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NolSinkler @ Mar 25 2005, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * They force us to go to church...if we refuse, we get grounded. From everything. My parents suck...
So yeah I've heard that the bible went through all this stuff. And since it's true and all, I feel better...about life. But, then again, who knows. I'm afraid <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You want my family to adopt you? It'd be be nice if I wasn't the only person in the family into computer gamming.
~edit~
Heh. Sorry for my off topic interjection. *roll eyes* Please continue.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Mar 31 2005, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Mar 31 2005, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sadly I can actually say for a fact that that flood that is described in Gensis did not occur. If it had, we would not be speaking right now, on an internet forum. That kind of cataclysmic event would have wiped out the vast majority of life, just like the one in the gulf of mexico did, 65 million years ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure that's a statement that you can't back up with 100% certainty. That would be quite a stretch. If you want to go really crazy, can you even back up with 100% certainty that you even exist? Or prove with 100% that the universe was created in a specific way? No I don't believe that you can.
Yes, I can back it up with 100% certainty, why you may ask.
Quite simple, there was a meteor. that cause a HUGE extinction (proven fact) (where is of some debate, but not much, most agree on the gulf of mexico as the crater, that one BIG meteor).
In order for the Gensis flood to have occurred AS THE BIBLE SAYS SO, would have required just as large of meteor, made almost completely of ice.
If that had happened lets give it an estimated... 17,000 years ago, we would NOT be here.
"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." — Matthew 19:26
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
Faith is stretched too thin in this. I can't begin to allow myself to believe in a God who'd create a flood and then make it go poof 7 days later just because. I believe that if he created a flood, he'd play by the rules of his own game and create it in a way that obeys the laws he made.
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all.
Comments
<a href='http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM' target='_blank'>Source, (school site, .edu)</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We know very little about the early Semitic religions, but the Semites that invaded Mesopotamia seem to have completely abandoned their religion in favor of Sumerian religion.
Sumerian religion was polytheistic, that is, the Sumerians believed in and worshipped many gods. These gods were incredibly powerful and anthropomorphic, that is, they resembled humans. Many of these gods controlled natural forces and were associated with astronomical bodies, such as the sun. The gods were creator gods; as a group, they had created the world and the people in it.
Like humans, they suffered all the ravages of human emotional and spiritual frailties: love, lust, hatred, anger, regret. Among the gods' biggest regrets was the creation of human life; the Sumerians believed that these gods regretted the creation of human life and sent a flood to destroy their faulty creation, but one man survived by building a boat.
While the destruction of the earth in a great flood is nearly universal in all human mythology and religion, we can't be sure if the Semites had a similar story or took it over from the Sumerians.
This is, of course, a question of contemporary significance: according to Genesis, the originator of the Hebrew race, the patriarch Abraham, originally came from the city of Ur. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*edit* made the post easier to read
Answer questions like
Where did all the water come from?
If the water was
a) fresh, then how did salt water fish survive?
b) salty, then how did freshwater fish survive?
What did carnivores eat right after they got off the boat? For example, if the 2 Lions ate one of the deer, the deer species would die out.
I have plenty more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also to quote from Wikipedia: (about Pascal's Wager)
"Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
1. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in the Bible, or
2. no God exists.
The wager does not rule out the possibility that there is a God who, rather than behaving as stated in certain parts of the bible, instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, or rewards honest reasoning and punishes feigned faith. Also, in the many human societies where belief in a particular religion is rewarded by economic and social benefits, the wager permits the hidden addition of such benefits to the wager, and many memeticists (those who work with concept of the meme) believe that this forms much of the unconscious core of religious belief."
Answer questions like
Where did all the water come from?
If the water was
a) fresh, then how did salt water fish survive?
b) salty, then how did freshwater fish survive?
What did carnivores eat right after they got off the boat? For example, if the 2 Lions ate one of the deer, the deer species would die out.
I have plenty more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also to quote from Wikipedia: (about Pascal's Wager)
"Pascal's wager suffers from the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, relying on the assumption that the only possibilities are:
1. the Christian God exists and punishes or rewards as stated in the Bible, or
2. no God exists.
The wager does not rule out the possibility that there is a God who, rather than behaving as stated in certain parts of the bible, instead rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, or rewards honest reasoning and punishes feigned faith. Also, in the many human societies where belief in a particular religion is rewarded by economic and social benefits, the wager permits the hidden addition of such benefits to the wager, and many memeticists (those who work with concept of the meme) believe that this forms much of the unconscious core of religious belief." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well.. scientifically it isn't possible unless there was a massive ice meteor that hit earth, (basically the same size of the one that created the gulf of mexico) and a human had prior knowledge of it.
Back with Noah was alive, that wasn't fesible. :-)
I don't get into the the whole animals two by two thing.
Once you say that one part of the book is false it detracts from the credibility of the whole.
Once you say that one part of the book is false it detracts from the credibility of the whole. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is how logically people look at it, yes.
If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven. After a certain age, one would expect that people could understand the concepts so they would be held accoutable. There is not a specific age of accoutabilty and it's different for each person.
One of them...
Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on.
and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wanna reply to any of this KungFu?
There is a long detailed thread on Noah's Ark that already went through all the arguments from both sides, if you really wan't to know where the christians stand you can search for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If thats true, then why not kill babies as soon as they are born (better yet: abort it)? If you honestly believe that, then the baby will be sure to go to heaven. Of course, you'll be condemned to hell, but would you rather be selfish and let that baby live and possible go to hell just because you yourself are so afraid of it? Hell, you might not even need to go to hell. You might get away with it because you've accepted christ and your sins are already forgiven.
I could go on, but this thread isn't about these sorts of hypothetical questions. Its about interpretation.
What an awful, <b>awful, <i>awful,</i></b> attitude. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true, though. It usually takes more than a discussion to change something so integral to a person. Otherwise, I'd be a Christian (if I was wrong, I wouldn't lose much).
One of them...
Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on.
and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I would believe Islam is false.
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view.
Well, frankly, if they weren't such bad arguemtns we might be willing to consider them. Hell, Ageri even called one explaination, presented by Marine01 IIRC, "actually plausable".
The thread is out there, all you have to do is search. No point in discussing it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Legion, your going to have to answer my question about where murder is defined and why that still applies when something like this doesn't.
If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many Christians believe in an age of accoutability. So in that case since a baby wouldn't be able to understand the concepts they would go to heaven. After a certain age, one would expect that people could understand the concepts so they would be held accoutable. There is not a specific age of accoutabilty and it's different for each person. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Bible doesn't teach an age of accountability - though it is a happy, touchy - feely idea (think of teh children!!).
The Bible does teach that God is merciful, and that his ways are above our ways. To those Christians who have children that die young - to them God makes promises that they can take to heart for comfort. Their children - by the promise of God - will be waiting in heaven.
For those that do not profess Christs name, to them God does not make promises. What hope do they have for their children when their own salvation is in question?
What the Bible does teach is that God knows his own, and calls them each by name. Perhaps, in his mercy, infants are saved - not by virtue of their own "innocents" - but rather by the merciful nature of God (as we are all saved). On the other hand, would these infants be saved if their own parents are praying to a false god for their souls?
I guess ultimatly, we don't know. To assume that yes, God does save all infants presumes too much (and would cause many to become pro-abortion). To say God saves none is to presume too little and paints God as heartless.
Clear as mud, right?
What an awful, <b>awful, <i>awful,</i></b> attitude.
Question for Christians: I believe that Christianity says that babies are born in sin, and therefore need to be baptised/give in to Christ/whatever, before they can go to Heaven. Is this correct?
If so, can you tell me what happened to the new born babies who were killed when the tsunami hit back in December? Did they go to hell? Why? From what I can see, they were innocent, but Christianity says that we are born guilty. How is it fair for these babies who have literally done nothing to be punished to eternal damnation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What an awful, awful, awful attitude towards God.
To think that God would send anyone to hell simply because they never had time to get water sprinkled on them... you have missed the most central aspect of the Bible: mercy.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin-Wikipedia+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wikipedia)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Critics of the account suggest that the flood was (if there truly was one), though quite large, simply a local flood that affected the Persian Gulf region. The breaching of the sill at the Strait of Hormuz is proposed as the cause: as sea level rose from glacial melt following the Ice Age, and the lower Tigris-Euphrates valley was flooded to form the Persian Gulf. There is also the explanation of the breakthrough that formed the Black Sea, which possibly ties the Turkish Ağrı Dağı (Ararat) with the biblical account.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark' target='_blank'>Noah's Ark @ Wikipedia</a>
I'm pretty sure to the people who wrote the bible, the cradle of humanity (the area surrounding the Tigris and the Euphrates) was their whole world. If just that part flooded, the authors wouldn't know any better than to label it the flooding of the planet since places like North and South America, Europe, Australia and Northern Asia were unknown to them...
[QUOTE=Cold NiTe,Mar 31 2005, 04:40 PM] Wait a second since when was the Flood in Noah's times impossible?
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]Critics of the account suggest that the flood was (if there truly was one), though quite large, simply a local flood that affected the Persian Gulf region. The breaching of the sill at the Strait of Hormuz is proposed as the cause: as sea level rose from glacial melt following the Ice Age, and the lower Tigris-Euphrates valley was flooded to form the Persian Gulf. There is also the explanation of the breakthrough that formed the Black Sea, which possibly ties the Turkish Ağrı Dağı (Ararat) with the biblical account.[/QUOTE]
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark' target='_blank'>Noah's Ark @ Wikipedia</a>
I'm pretty sure to the people who wrote the bible, the cradle of humanity (the area surrounding the Tigris and the Euphrates) was their whole world. If just that part flooded, the authors wouldn't know any better than to label it the flooding of the planet since places like North and South America, Europe, Australia and Northern Asia were unknown to them... [/QUOTE]
[/quote]
That would work Coldnite, if the flood wasn't mentioned thousand of years earlier by different people of different regions, of different religions.
I was also speaking of actually having the entire earth covered.
Noah also sailed for 40 days... that means the flood would have had to have been the size of at least the indian ocean. Again, not possible without a cataclysmic event occurring at the same time.
[quote] <b> (Wikipedia article (same page)) </b>
Nearly every culture in every religion, time, and place has a global flood story, including European, African, Native American, Middle Eastern, Chinese, and Aboriginal societies [/b]
*edit* Yay for scientific searches on historical evidence of the biblical stories.
<a href='http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ark_hunt_020830.html' target='_blank'>Satellite Searching for Noah's Ark.</a>
In case those of you with short attention spans dont wish to read an objective view of how they are searching for the ark.
[quote]
El-Baz recounted his conversations with former Apollo 15 moonwalker James Irwin. The astronaut, now deceased, mounted six expeditions to Mt. Ararat in a search for the ark. Those treks were done through his High Flight Foundation, a non-profit evangelical organization based in Colorado Springs.
"Irwin told me he saw something. He felt it was an imprint on the land of the boat that was turned upside down…perhaps with some soil on top. So there was something there in his mind," El-Baz said.
El-Baz himself remains true to his training, waiting for scientific data to become available and help unveil the true nature of the Ararat object.
"There is absolutely nothing in all the pictures that we have seen up to now that is questionable in my mind. I can explain each and everything as a natural snow bank…a shadow. There is nothing," El-Baz said. But given the interest and the historical nature of such a find, the search is worth conducting, he added.
[/quote]
Taken form the bottom of the article as to what has been found so far.
Please note, the search is not over, as he states further down in the article.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us <b>why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us <b>why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I have no other proof.
To quote Chris Farley, "I could get a good look at a T-Bone by stickin' my head up a bulls butt - but, I'd rather take the butchers word for it." <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Mar 31 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Genesis 9:18 - 19 tells us [b]why</b> every culture on every side of the globe pretty much has a flood story...
~ DarkATi<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the last source I want on this is the Bible. If you do a proof on something, you do not use that thing you are proving.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for truth an bolded for emphasis. I'll have an explanation for you when I get home Cold-Nite, I don't have my bookmarked links at work. I don't rely on just one site to prove something either.
Alright, here is a nice list of all the religions (available online) that have a great flood story in them. Quick list if you wish to read through them you are more then welcome to.
<a href='http://encarta.msn.com/text_761580498___28/Native_American_Religions.html' target='_blank'>Native Americans</a>
<a href='http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/Sumer-origins.htm' target='_blank'>Sumerians (also link above)</a>
<a href='http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/08012002.htm' target='_blank'>Egyptian</a>
I could go on but you get the idea.
Now to explain away why it isn't truth and why so many other religions have the same myth.
<a href='http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html' target='_blank'>The Great Flood</a>
Just in case people do not wish to actually read.. again.
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• During the Ice Age, Ryan and Pitman argue, the Black Sea was an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland.
• About 12,000 years ago, toward the end of the Ice Age, Earth began growing warmer. Vast sheets of ice that sprawled over the Northern Hemisphere began to melt. Oceans and seas grew deeper as a result.
• About 7,000 years ago the Mediterranean Sea swelled. Seawater pushed northward, slicing through what is now Turkey.
• Funneled through the narrow Bosporus, the water hit the Black Sea with 200 times the force of Niagara Falls. Each day the Black Sea rose about six inches (15 centimeters), and coastal farms were flooded.
• Seared into the memories of terrified survivors, the tale of the flood was passed down through the generations and eventually became the Noah story.
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That is the most popular theory on what caused the flood stories, it is simply passed down throughout all of the generations of a time when the ice caps just happened to have melted. Did it flood the earth completely. No. Did it flood quite abit, obviously the answer is yes. There was no ark, there was no "noah" there also weren't any animals that walked two by two into a huge ship.
One of them...
Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on.
and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I would believe Islam is false.
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are you dodging my response to 'why die for a lie?'
One of them...
Who would die for a lie? I assume since you're Christian you believe Islam is false? The suicide bombers and hijackers on 9/11 died for a lie then right? Come on.
and quoting two people who are essentially rehashing Pascal's wager doesn't do anything for me.
The Bible isn't even a good book of morals anymore. It supports slavery and tells us to kill all homosexuals. It's quite obvious that it's a 2000 year old relic, not some divinely-inspired word of god. I'm sure it was a good book of morals 2000 years ago.
Edit: Seriously if someone wants to step up and defend a literal interpretation of the bible, please explain Noah's Ark. How is it possible? Do I really need to state all my questions again? Explain to me what happened exactly, without saying Goddidit. PLEASE. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wanna reply to any of this KungFu? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure why you say the Bible supports slavery. It hasn't supported slavery in any of the passages I've read. The part about homosexuals I believe was the civil law for the Israelites. That part of the law doesn't apply today for us.
I'm not sure how much benifit there would be to trying to defend a literal interpretation of the ark since so many of the people arguing have shown that they aren't even willing to consider the other side of any of the arguments in here when it doesn't fit nicely into their own world view. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for the double post.
The part about killing homosexuals was God speaking directly to someone, whose name I can't remember. It wasn't a civil law.
Slavery is talked about and not condemned, which is an acception. The bible talks about how slaves should treat their masters, and vise versa. You know that...
The Ark isn't possible. I'm sorry but it's just simply not a possible event in the way that it is described in the bible. I'm willing to listen to your hilarious attempts to explain it though, which is why I asked. Really, HONESTLY, PLEASE, have some self respect and at least admit that it's not possible that there was a worldwide flood and some really really old guy takes 2 of each animal on a boat. Let's have some respect for eachother ok?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wikipedia+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wikipedia)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Others suggest that the near-universality of the story in all cultures and times makes it much more likely that it originated in an actual, historical event. They suggest that the fact that all the stories claim the flood was universal and that only a few were left to repopulate the whole Earth makes it unlikely that the flood was regional. Of all the available accounts of the flood, they argue that the Biblical account is the most historically accurate account available, due to its good ship proportions (300x50x30), realistic scale (unlike Gilgamesh), a signifiantly greater level of detail (including dates for events and extensive genealogies for the people on the Ark), very concrete, historical, and non-mythological style (unlike the Indian story), and a more logical story progression. They argue that the other stories are accounts of the same historical event which were distorted into mythology over time, and that the Genesis account is the most historically accurate account available today.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truth of the matter is, I don't know and neither do you. You can't prove with 100% certainty that the Genesis flood never occurred just as I can't prove with 100% certainty that it did occur. This is where faith takes over.
In addition, obviously you didn't read that nation geographic article, nor the one where they are attempting to locate this "ark" yet have found nothing using sophiscated satellites orbiting earth.
So yeah I've heard that the bible went through all this stuff. And since it's true and all, I feel better...about life. But, then again, who knows. I'm afraid <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You want my family to adopt you? It'd be be nice if I wasn't the only person in the family into computer gamming.
~edit~
Heh. Sorry for my off topic interjection. *roll eyes* Please continue.
I'm pretty sure that's a statement that you can't back up with 100% certainty. That would be quite a stretch. If you want to go really crazy, can you even back up with 100% certainty that you even exist? Or prove with 100% that the universe was created in a specific way? No I don't believe that you can.
Quite simple, there was a meteor. that cause a HUGE extinction (proven fact) (where is of some debate, but not much, most agree on the gulf of mexico as the crater, that one BIG meteor).
In order for the Gensis flood to have occurred AS THE BIBLE SAYS SO, would have required just as large of meteor, made almost completely of ice.
If that had happened lets give it an estimated... 17,000 years ago, we would NOT be here.
That is simple science fact. :-)
God can do whatever he wants, he isn't bound by the laws He, Himself, created.
Let me ask a question, Cyndane, what would have to occur for you to believe in God, the Bible and Jesus, the whole enchilada? What are you looking for that you haven't found? (This question goes for anyone, I suppose.)
~ DarkATi
Why do I say that? Because he has never made blatant miracles in the current day and age, just because it was some vague primordial time then doesn't mean the same rules didn't apply.
I believe in God yes, but perhaps not in the same manner that my fellows here do... I consider myself of a more Newtonian school of thought, clockwork universe and all.