<!--QuoteBegin-Snakestyles+Mar 14 2005, 10:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snakestyles @ Mar 14 2005, 10:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno maybe i havent played this game long enough,are marines allways meant to win <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it usually doesnt have to take someone 2-3 years to figure out that one side shouldnt always win in a multiplayer game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 01:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I take it that finding and killing the upgrade chambers is no longer a viable tactic then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok, lets assume a little situation to show why you cant just go "find and kill" the upgrade chambers, and why sc is overpowered.
- ns_tanith aliens get satcomm and choose to do an sc strat
the sc skulk immediatly runs out of satcomm into the acidic vent gestates and drops an sc, which means that the aliens have invisible skulks by about 40 seconds (marine groups will still be building reactor room and leaving base after building) he then jumps down, runs to the hive and drops another sc, at the same time 2 rts are dropped in acidic and chem. when marines attempt to push into chem they get killed by an invisible skulk ambush at about 1:00-1:30 at the same time the marines pushing from central access to cargo get ambushed by an invisible skulk, killing one possibly both of them.
Now that the marines know the aliens have scs the comm can begin to counter, an early obs is put up which means there is no res to start the aa yet. the comm can afford a scan, he decides to scan chem, the marine in cargo is killed by another cloaked skulk as he randomly shoots walls and corridors, the skulks in chem hide for a little while so they can recloak, after this the marines in chem get boned, again. meanwhile a sof skulk is busy eating the rts, he's impossible to kill because he can see the marines coming, when marines try to recap unless you use two marines (not at all efficient) he will be killed, easily.
the marines are very screwed now, all the early rfk for the aliens means early fades and an early hive, plus there will be a lerk flying about negating a1.
due to lack of nodes and having to spend res on other things to counter sc the aa armoury has possibly only just started upgrading, a phase gate is put up in cargo, an obs also, a lerk spores the marines, focus fades and skulks rip them apart, all the while marines are losing rts to the sof skulk.
At this point it's pretty much gg so lets recap,
- marines cannot counter early sc within the first two minutes, meaning their initial pushes will be killed - the cost of trying to counter sc (early obs, welders, shotguns) means that phasegates and an advanced armoury will be delayed - marines stuggle to recap their nodes, while alien rts are safe, plus the large amount of rfk that sc skulks get - a lerk + focus fade/ skulk combo will own any group of non hmg marines, it's impossible to keep welded in that situation. it's also impossible to seige (you'll be killed, plus you dont have the res)
This is just one scenario of course, there are many more showing why sc is overowered and very difficult to counter, if even skilled teams play (where the teams both have a good level of skill) and the alien team takes sc, they will win most of the time.
Also: regarding hunting down the chambers and killing them, scs will be placed in vents and in the hive room, these areas will be cloaked, you wont be able to afford more than one scan, you will die.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 07:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I take it that finding and killing the upgrade chambers is no longer a viable tactic then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it is not.
If the alien team has sensory there's no way you're taking down the chamber because of cloaking and the scent of fear from the chamber. The marines must scan and then run as fast as they can to the location, which will most probably be full of focus skulks. If they somehow reach the location then they must boost into a vent and then crawl along to wherever the chamber is located, by which time the scan will have run out and even the most badly organised alien team will be in place to kill them.
If the alien team has movement then there is no way they're going to drop them out into the open, good luck trying to get into a vent with silence and celerity skulks or even a lerk sporing indefinately without losing all your res.
If the aliens take defense then you either aren't going to be able to get into the vent without a heavy alien presence, like with MC or they will be on top of the hive.
Every time you go for a chamber and fail you waste a shotgun or two and about a minute of gametime, while letting the aliens get earlier and earlier fades or hives.
Even if you do manage to take the lone chamber in the vent at powersub or wherever down, you spent too much time doing other things and the aliens can just rebuild it because you're not going after the RTs instead.
<!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+Mar 14 2005, 10:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DC Darkling @ Mar 14 2005, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> even with SC i tend to get armor2 BEFORE obs. ALOT. You'd be surprised how long rines in groups last if medded and they have armor2.
and I always med, so not something I call new <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> medding is harder and more unreliable in 3.0F than b5. the meds wont always drop, and they almost never drop if you aim at the marine.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snakestyles+Mar 14 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snakestyles @ Mar 14 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno maybe i havent played this game long enough,are marines allways meant to win <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, because they have the guns.
Guns = Attractive to CSplayers. endless bunnyhop = a CS players dream CS player even teaming up as rines = sure victory
Taking out SC abilities = bye bye Alien win chanes. Aliens will then maybe win 1 out of 20 games.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hannebambel+Mar 14 2005, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hannebambel @ Mar 14 2005, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakestyles+Mar 14 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snakestyles @ Mar 14 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno maybe i havent played this game long enough,are marines allways meant to win <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, because they have the guns.
Guns = Attractive to CSplayers. endless bunnyhop = a CS players dream CS player even teaming up as rines = sure victory
Taking out SC abilities = bye bye Alien win chanes. Aliens will then maybe win 1 out of 20 games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> did aliens win 1 out of 20 games in b5?
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Mar 14 2005, 04:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Mar 14 2005, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gameplay is exactly the same, marines still have to do certain things in a certain order at a certain time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps this is the thinking that's giving you trouble.
Hmm.. this: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe we don't have the teamwork as marines?! Not likely, we're a clan, we've played every day for the past 6 months, we've got better teamwork than you could ever imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does not jibe with this: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have to adapt to dropping two carapace skulks with 1 clip of LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds to me like the aliens are the one with the teamwork H4X here.
Teamwork isn't just having a good plan and all being able to execute it, it's being able to cover your friend.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We have to adapt with aliens taking sensory, knowing where every single marine on the map is and getting boned by skulks and focus fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you're really thinking the lack of having to spend 2 res is causing this? The SC strats haven't seriously changed. It's just they're getting used more, and you can't seem to wrap your head around it.
I mean, going by the numbers, sensory upgrade hasn't changed a lot since the betas. Cloaked skulks standing still haven't changed at all since the betas. Cloaked skulks walking have actually become slightly easier to see. It's only the cloaked skulks that are running that are more difficult.
Think about that.. everything that's being done now, could have been done before. It's just with the chamber change and 2 lower res cost the aliens are actually trying something new. Now it's your turn, marine! Try turning off the "rush rush rush" mode you've gotten so accustomed to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens from 1 minute onwards have 3 upgrade chambers of their choice and it's not till about 2 minutes (half way to fades) that you can make a move to seriously counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really think about that.. how is this any different from the betas? Is focus more powerful? Are there more upgrade chambers now? Are there less restrictions on what kind of chamber they can place first? Does the sensory chamber have a larger field of effect?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You HAVE to do a1 first and then once that's up you're free to get observatories, MT or whatever the hell you want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this railroad line of thinking is where you're having problems.
You're dealing with sensory aliens now.. but that could have happened in any previous game. What's different between then and now? Well.. there are really only four things:
1. Innate regeneration. 2. Alien flashlight. 3. Marine shotgun. 4. No res skulk upgrades. Now, free skulk upgarades I don't really agree with, as I think forcing skulks to make that small choice increased the skill. With free upgrades, all the skulks are upgrading and realizing that hey, it really does help.
That said, it was only 2 res before for goodness sakes. Hardly what could be considered game-breaking for the alien team, especially given the success they seem to be having in ripping you apart by using them.
So that leaves 1, 2, and 3. I'll admit, put those altogether and that's a a hell of a punch. Still, they can be dealt with.
Item 2 means marines have lost their mastery of the dark corner. No longer can they hide in the shadows and hope to nail the aliens with impunity for a half-second or two before the alien spots them. However, the easiest way to adapt to this is simply to leave the dark areas to the aliens. Stay in the light, because they have to get all the way to you, which means they get exposed.
Item 3 can be adapted to. Learn to hold your fire. Don't shoot indiscriminately with a shotgun, and wait til you see the fungus of their eyes.
Item 1 is the toughie, it's a new advantage aliens have been given, and not one that the marines can really adapt to. If an imbalance does exist, I'd say it probably comes from this change, because the power of field healing is very strong, even at only 2%, as it shortens the time the aliens have to pull back between attacks, and essentially gives every alien an ongoing HP boost. Take too long to kill one, and he's back up a point.
So, pulling this altogether into the main topic: Your problem isn't sensory chambers, because anything you're seeing now could have been done before, and if you can't adapt to it now, you wouldn't have adapted to it then.
However, your problem may be in innate regeneration.
innate regen was one of the smarter things implemented. every other one (except maybe the faster respawn in large servers) was, in my opinion, unnecessary and imbalancing.
Sensory is easily countered, and slapped to death if marines teamwork instead of ramboing. i played atleast 2 games where a comm dropped obs in every place he had a phase gate in it, the marines teamworked and moved in groups of 3 or 2, the comm scanned everywhere the marines gone, each time they killed atleast 1 cloaked skulk.
If the comm ain't covering you, or you don't teamwork, you are bound to loose anyways no matter what chamber.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 14 2005, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 14 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Mar 14 2005, 04:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Mar 14 2005, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gameplay is exactly the same, marines still have to do certain things in a certain order at a certain time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps this is the thinking that's giving you trouble.
Hmm.. this: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe we don't have the teamwork as marines?! Not likely, we're a clan, we've played every day for the past 6 months, we've got better teamwork than you could ever imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does not jibe with this: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have to adapt to dropping two carapace skulks with 1 clip of LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds to me like the aliens are the one with the teamwork H4X here.
Teamwork isn't just having a good plan and all being able to execute it, it's being able to cover your friend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.
ok people before we continue, I think people who don't play in clan games should realise that the way the majority of people in clans play on public servers and in clan games is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. People in clan games DO NOT RAMBO.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 14 2005, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 14 2005, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey.. I'm not the one who claimed they're having to take down 2 carapaced skulks with 1 LMG clip. I just pointed out that that situation doesn't sound like marine teamwork.
And just because you play the game more doesn't necessarily mean you've tried alternate strategies. Given how long the basic strategy of the betas has been in place, I'd be willing to be there have been some pretty strong habits formed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And just because you play the game more doesn't necessarily mean you've tried alternate strategies. Given how long the basic strategy of the betas has been in place, I'd be willing to be there have been some pretty strong habits formed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the fact that the competetive community pretty much moved from dc first to mc first during the betas proves this wrong =/
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+Mar 14 2005, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ Mar 14 2005, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey.. I'm not the one who claimed they're having to take down 2 carapaced skulks with 1 LMG clip. I just pointed out that that situation doesn't sound like marine teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually you are forgetting yet another alien advantage:
Aliens choose when to attack. If one marine spilts up from another and 2 skulks with carapace suddenly attack him, that is not the marine's fault.
Furthermore marines frequently need to spilt up because they need to control the map. Back in the day one marine used to be a threat, but not anymore. Since aliens tech faster, attack faster and more often, and now have a stronger early game, marines cannot compete.
Stop using hypothetical arguments to contest with players with real experience. It is absurd.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Thank you to Anderval and comrade for responding in a useful and civil manner.
The question does remain though, why is this so powerful now, yet was "unworkable" or at the very presumed to be relatively easy to counter in B5?
Scan is cheaper, so is it free upgrades, or cloak whilst moving that is causing the problem? Those are the only differences in the early game. Two obs give a commander the ability to scan more or less constantly, so for 60 res, you get a hard counter to cloaking, plus it means that the commander has a significantly better intelligence gathering capacity.
D: free upgrades make all the difference, in b5 skulks playing in matches generally couldnt afford to get any upgrades because they were saving for a hive or a fade or more rts, it was just a bad idea until the second hive was up. Now that abilities are being used by every single skulk all the time from pretty much the first minute of the game it has (SHOCK) created an inblalance in the early game, especially with scs.
I'd also like to ask how exactly marine play is supposed to adapt to sc? people have already demonstrated how it's impossible to counter sc first in the first 2 minutes of a game and then very expensive for the rest. Good clans already have alot of experience, alot of teamwork, and alot of players with good aim, we already have comms who know how to technically counter scs first, it's just that they are so strong in this version due mainly to free upgrades but also a combination of all the other alien buffs that it is extremely difficult to succesfully counter.
edit: edit for above post, yes 2 early obs would allow for much more scanning which would undoubtedly help against cloaked skulks, however, this only applies to the early game. after fades arrive and the second hive is building focus with spore support is much more desireable so your expensive early investment in 2 obs is not particularily great. Plus the fact that building to obs soon enough that they would be useful to marines in the field early game means you have to sacrifice some other tech or recapping rts which are neccisary to a sucessful marine game.
Another problem lies in not being able to adjust your early game build order depending on chamber choice.
You have to decide whether to go for early MT or a1, or early upg AA right at the start of the game, before you can decide what chamber you are playing against... this means you really have no choice but to take the safest route - a1. When you have found out what chamber they have dropped it is already too late to do something about it by changing your build order...
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 14 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 14 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 14 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And just because you play the game more doesn't necessarily mean you've tried alternate strategies. Given how long the basic strategy of the betas has been in place, I'd be willing to be there have been some pretty strong habits formed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the fact that the competetive community pretty much moved from dc first to mc first during the betas proves this wrong =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 90-95% of pubs have FF off, after all
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Mar 14 2005, 10:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Mar 14 2005, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens from 1 minute onwards have 3 upgrade chambers of their choice and it's not till about 2 minutes (half way to fades) that you can make a move to seriously counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really think about that.. how is this any different from the betas? Is focus more powerful? Are there more upgrade chambers now? Are there less restrictions on what kind of chamber they can place first? Does the sensory chamber have a larger field of effect?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You HAVE to do a1 first and then once that's up you're free to get observatories, MT or whatever the hell you want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this railroad line of thinking is where you're having problems.
You're dealing with sensory aliens now.. but that could have happened in any previous game. What's different between then and now? Well.. there are really only four things:
1. Innate regeneration. 2. Alien flashlight. 3. Marine shotgun. 4. No res skulk upgrades. Now, free skulk upgarades I don't really agree with, as I think forcing skulks to make that small choice increased the skill. With free upgrades, all the skulks are upgrading and realizing that hey, it really does help.
That said, it was only 2 res before for goodness sakes. Hardly what could be considered game-breaking for the alien team, especially given the success they seem to be having in ripping you apart by using them.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Before you read this, I'd like to make clear that I am not advocating one position or another. I am only sharing what my observations have been, in case anyone is misguided enough to actually want to read them, so don't get all huffy just because a competitive player is saying something you might disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (at least, not until you've finished reading it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
If we are discussing the differences, there are a few other things that immediately come to mind (and I'm sure many others that don't), that you omitted:
1) sensory chambers provide localized scent of fear
Though Comrade said much of this, I think it bears mentioning again: it was previously very risky to boost or mine-ladder into a vent to take out a sensory chamber. It generally took long enough to do the boosting and shooting that it took two pings. With provided scent of fear, it is rather easy to guarantee a quick response to any such attempt. Assuming the aliens decide to put the sensory chambers in vents (as is traditionally done at almost all skill levels), it is not terribly difficult to prevent marines from attacking them. Vents tend to take two marines to get in to. It is not terribly difficult for a lone cloaking skulk to pick off one marine from a group before dying to the remainder. Hopefully that is not something people will disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. It is also not too hard to bunny-hop in and take out a marine while they are trying to stack into a vent. It is even easier to take them out with a lerk (which, by the time the sensories are up, the marines have an obs, the marines have located the sensory, and the marines have gotten enough men there to boost, is likely to be available). Since it tends to take at least two marines to get into the vent, and the odds of losing a marine in the process, thus making it impossible to get in the vent until another arrives, are not insignificant, it might make sense to send more than two.
Obviously, it is not impossible to take out sensory chambers in vents. My point is just that it is not trivial to take out sensory chambers. If a team allocates three marines to go after a sensory in a vent, that leaves only two other marines to cap nodes for their team and assault alien nodes. These two remaining marines pretty much have to stick together, since, as has been mentioned by many people, a lone marine stands little chance against cloaking skulks. Even if the marines manage to remove two sensory chambers from vents, that still leaves one on the starting hive. One sensory chamber provides most of the important points of cloaking and focus. A skulk is still just as cloaked; he need only wait longer between ambushes, which is rarely a problem. Focus still allows skulks and fades to take out armor-less marines (which a sporing lerk can easily generate, or at least force the marines to spend too much time welding and make it easy for a cloaking skulk to sneak in) in one hit. Even if the marines devote the time and risk to assault sensory chambers in the vents, they are still stuck dividing two marines between capping their own nodes and attacking the alien nodes. Either they will be strapped for res when assaulting the building second hive, or the aliens will have plenty of res with which to build new chambers and get more lifeforms out. If marines do not take out alien nodes, they tend to be in trouble. If marines do not cap nodes of their own, they tend to be in trouble. Sensory chambers in vents add one more vital thing for marines to deal with, while making the first two rather more difficult. In competitive play, this can be a problem, as marines only have five people in the field to assign to these tasks.
2) upgrades are much quicker than previously Res costs aside, it was difficult to justify sitting there for 30 seconds getting two upgrades when your second hive was under attack and you were likely to get shotgunned three seconds after movementing in anyway.
3) skulks remain cloaked while moving Arguments about how hard it is to see/shoot bunnyhopping cloaked skulks aside, this has another effect: a skulk can run into position at full speed, and then stop and be cloaked as normal. He does not have to wait for the usual time for the cloaking to set in. It used to be that a skulk would have to be careful when cloaking, and worry about having to stand still for the cloaking to kick in while a marine was approaching and might round the corner at any minute. This is not so much of a concern any more.
Now, about the change in res costs: no one is asserting that 2 res will break the bank. The problem is that the upgrade cost for skulks gets paid many times. A skulk might die 5 times before hitting 50 res for fade or hive. If upgrades were 2 res, that would leave him with 40 res, instead, meaning the fade would be delayed a fair bit (recall that a skulk starts with 25 res, so the skulk ends up having gained 15 res instead of 25, and the skulk has 1.66 times as long to wait for the res). This gets even worse later in the game, where you have two-hive skulks versus upgraded marines with Big Guns. At two hives, it cost 4 res to get upgrades, and a skulk was often more likely to die than get a kill. A skulk had to get two kills (on average) to pay for the upgrades, which was even less likely. Multiply this by the many deaths likely versus, say, a squad of hmg/sgs with mines who are sieging a hive, and that 4 res per life adds up very, very quickly (plus, as mentioned, this would greatly delay the rate at which fresh skulks are charging the marines, due to the difference in gestation time--it is important to keep sieging marines busy so that they do not have time to reload, weld, and build between attacks). Now a skulk can get (say) silence and focus for 0 res in little time, leap in, die, and keep doing so.
some other stuff:
I do not think anyone anywhere is trying to argue that marines do not need teamwork. In competitive play, marines have always needed teamwork. I think that people get the impression that competitive marines do not use teamwork because they see clanners run around on pubs by themselves and kill 40 skulks without dying. There are important differences between pubs and organized play, as I'm sure everyone would agree. A few of the germane ones are that on pubs, skulks walk in straight lines, sit in obvious camping spots, and have little teamwork of their own. Lone marines did not tend to live long in competitive play in b5 (Mustang notwithstanding), and they live for even less time in 3.0 final.
Again, I am not saying any of these differences make the game better or worse. I just saw some points that seemed to be overlooked in the discussion.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: edit for above post, yes 2 early obs would allow for much more scanning which would undoubtedly help against cloaked skulks, however, this only applies to the early game. after fades arrive and the second hive is building focus with spore support is much more desireable so your expensive early investment in 2 obs is not particularily great. Plus the fact that building to obs soon enough that they would be useful to marines in the field early game means you have to sacrifice some other tech or recapping rts which are neccisary to a sucessful marine game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?
[EDIT]This is probably going to be met with derision, but it shouldn't take much to boost hand grenades to the point where they would be able to winkle out chambers in vents.[/EDIT]
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: edit for above post, yes 2 early obs would allow for much more scanning which would undoubtedly help against cloaked skulks, however, this only applies to the early game. after fades arrive and the second hive is building focus with spore support is much more desireable so your expensive early investment in 2 obs is not particularily great. Plus the fact that building to obs soon enough that they would be useful to marines in the field early game means you have to sacrifice some other tech or recapping rts which are neccisary to a sucessful marine game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?
[EDIT]This is probably going to be met with derision, but it shouldn't take much to boost hand grenades to the point where they would be able to winkle out chambers in vents.[/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you nerf the fade, then you are going to make balancing this game a nightmare.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[EDIT]This is probably going to be met with derision, but it shouldn't take much to boost hand grenades to the point where they would be able to winkle out chambers in vents.[/EDIT]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I actually agree with that, other than your use of the term 'winkle'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ Mar 14 2005, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: edit for above post, yes 2 early obs would allow for much more scanning which would undoubtedly help against cloaked skulks, however, this only applies to the early game. after fades arrive and the second hive is building focus with spore support is much more desireable so your expensive early investment in 2 obs is not particularily great. Plus the fact that building to obs soon enough that they would be useful to marines in the field early game means you have to sacrifice some other tech or recapping rts which are neccisary to a sucessful marine game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A very good analysis.
I'd like to take the time to say that most, if not all, of the changes (barring cloaking which I have no love for at all) are changes I would want included in the game.
The delay when going through a PG helps eliminate the PG as an offensive weapon (beacon, pg, beacon, pg), which is an element on NS I never really liked.
Free upgrade for skulks makes the alien game more diverse and allows for a more free choice of chamber.
Innate regen is a good idea and makes sense, to lessen reliance on DCs for lerks and fades (to a degree).
Now, while I agree with all these changes, I dont agree in the way they were implemented without thought of the consequences.
Your analysis is exactly what should have been made during the beta testing, and is one that ahs been brought up a few times by competetive players (in particular) during the course of the time elapsed since 3.0f release.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I gave up analysing NS gameplay as it got in the way of my job as PT lead (i.e. acting as hall monitor) and because I got fed up of being told I couldn't possibly be right because I wasn't in the CAL.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 14 2005, 01:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 14 2005, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thank you to Anderval and comrade for responding in a useful and civil manner.
The question does remain though, why is this so powerful now, yet was "unworkable" or at the very presumed to be relatively easy to counter in B5?
Scan is cheaper, so is it free upgrades, or cloak whilst moving that is causing the problem? Those are the only differences in the early game. Two obs give a commander the ability to scan more or less constantly, so for 60 res, you get a hard counter to cloaking, plus it means that the commander has a significantly better intelligence gathering capacity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's the fact that every alien can get upgrades now, moving with cloak isn't really the big deal. With sensory the main problem are the relentless waves of focus, cloaked skulks who know exactly how many marines there are and where they are when they are near the areas the aliens need to hold.
Before, when skulks took upgrades it delayed the hive and fades and was still pretty fair, but now taking upgrades just makes it harder for marines to do anything, delaying their game and speeding up the alien game.
not to mention that cloak is no fun and actually promotes idiotic, uncooperative play
<!--QuoteBegin-keelem+Mar 14 2005, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (keelem @ Mar 14 2005, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about not making multiple huge changes every 9 months or so in one patch that totally **** up the game. One thing at a time.
I would appreciate that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldnt... huge changes are fun.
the reason hand grenades and catpacks arnt used in competative ns, is as before because of the cost to research them, the 20-30 res you spend just to have them available is not justifiable considering you have to fit in other much more useful upgrades such as a1 aa phasetech weapons upgrades etc. I would love these two upgrades to actually be useful ingame, a vanilla marine starting with a nade as default could be quite good for dislodging skulks hiding behind rts in close quarters (i've never really used nades so i dont know what other uses for them there could be), catpacks are also very cool but at the moment too expensive and not worth it (if you have enough res to research and actually drop some catpacks as well as everything else then chances are you're already dominating the game so it doesn't matter).
Personally i wouldn't like to see changes made to the fade because i really like the way it works right now, and i don't believe the way to correct the inbalance caused by giving a big boost to the alien early game is to nerf the mid game.
Comments
it usually doesnt have to take someone 2-3 years to figure out that one side shouldnt always win in a multiplayer game.
You'd be surprised how long rines in groups last if medded and they have armor2.
and I always med, so not something I call new
ok, lets assume a little situation to show why you cant just go "find and kill" the upgrade chambers, and why sc is overpowered.
- ns_tanith aliens get satcomm and choose to do an sc strat
the sc skulk immediatly runs out of satcomm into the acidic vent gestates and drops an sc, which means that the aliens have invisible skulks by about 40 seconds (marine groups will still be building reactor room and leaving base after building) he then jumps down, runs to the hive and drops another sc, at the same time 2 rts are dropped in acidic and chem. when marines attempt to push into chem they get killed by an invisible skulk ambush at about 1:00-1:30 at the same time the marines pushing from central access to cargo get ambushed by an invisible skulk, killing one possibly both of them.
Now that the marines know the aliens have scs the comm can begin to counter, an early obs is put up which means there is no res to start the aa yet. the comm can afford a scan, he decides to scan chem, the marine in cargo is killed by another cloaked skulk as he randomly shoots walls and corridors, the skulks in chem hide for a little while so they can recloak, after this the marines in chem get boned, again. meanwhile a sof skulk is busy eating the rts, he's impossible to kill because he can see the marines coming, when marines try to recap unless you use two marines (not at all efficient) he will be killed, easily.
the marines are very screwed now, all the early rfk for the aliens means early fades and an early hive, plus there will be a lerk flying about negating a1.
due to lack of nodes and having to spend res on other things to counter sc the aa armoury has possibly only just started upgrading, a phase gate is put up in cargo, an obs also, a lerk spores the marines, focus fades and skulks rip them apart, all the while marines are losing rts to the sof skulk.
At this point it's pretty much gg so lets recap,
- marines cannot counter early sc within the first two minutes, meaning their initial
pushes will be killed
- the cost of trying to counter sc (early obs, welders, shotguns) means that phasegates and an advanced armoury will be delayed
- marines stuggle to recap their nodes, while alien rts are safe, plus the large amount of rfk that sc skulks get
- a lerk + focus fade/ skulk combo will own any group of non hmg marines, it's impossible to keep welded in that situation. it's also impossible to seige (you'll be killed, plus you dont have the res)
This is just one scenario of course, there are many more showing why sc is overowered and very difficult to counter, if even skilled teams play (where the teams both have a good level of skill) and the alien team takes sc, they will win most of the time.
Also: regarding hunting down the chambers and killing them, scs will be placed in vents and in the hive room, these areas will be cloaked, you wont be able to afford more than one scan, you will die.
No it is not.
If the alien team has sensory there's no way you're taking down the chamber because of cloaking and the scent of fear from the chamber. The marines must scan and then run as fast as they can to the location, which will most probably be full of focus skulks. If they somehow reach the location then they must boost into a vent and then crawl along to wherever the chamber is located, by which time the scan will have run out and even the most badly organised alien team will be in place to kill them.
If the alien team has movement then there is no way they're going to drop them out into the open, good luck trying to get into a vent with silence and celerity skulks or even a lerk sporing indefinately without losing all your res.
If the aliens take defense then you either aren't going to be able to get into the vent without a heavy alien presence, like with MC or they will be on top of the hive.
Every time you go for a chamber and fail you waste a shotgun or two and about a minute of gametime, while letting the aliens get earlier and earlier fades or hives.
Even if you do manage to take the lone chamber in the vent at powersub or wherever down, you spent too much time doing other things and the aliens can just rebuild it because you're not going after the RTs instead.
edit: ^ ****
You'd be surprised how long rines in groups last if medded and they have armor2.
and I always med, so not something I call new <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
medding is harder and more unreliable in 3.0F than b5. the meds wont always drop, and they almost never drop if you aim at the marine.
Sure, because they have the guns.
Guns = Attractive to CSplayers.
endless bunnyhop = a CS players dream
CS player even teaming up as rines = sure victory
Taking out SC abilities = bye bye Alien win chanes. Aliens will then maybe
win 1 out of 20 games.
Sure, because they have the guns.
Guns = Attractive to CSplayers.
endless bunnyhop = a CS players dream
CS player even teaming up as rines = sure victory
Taking out SC abilities = bye bye Alien win chanes. Aliens will then maybe
win 1 out of 20 games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
did aliens win 1 out of 20 games in b5?
Perhaps this is the thinking that's giving you trouble.
Hmm.. this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Maybe we don't have the teamwork as marines?! Not likely, we're a clan, we've played every day for the past 6 months, we've got better teamwork than you could ever imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does not jibe with this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have to adapt to dropping two carapace skulks with 1 clip of LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds to me like the aliens are the one with the teamwork H4X here.
Teamwork isn't just having a good plan and all being able to execute it, it's being able to cover your friend.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
We have to adapt with aliens taking sensory, knowing where every single marine on the map is and getting boned by skulks and focus fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're really thinking the lack of having to spend 2 res is causing this? The SC strats haven't seriously changed. It's just they're getting used more, and you can't seem to wrap your head around it.
I mean, going by the numbers, sensory upgrade hasn't changed a lot since the betas. Cloaked skulks standing still haven't changed at all since the betas. Cloaked skulks walking have actually become slightly easier to see. It's only the cloaked skulks that are running that are more difficult.
Think about that.. everything that's being done now, could have been done before. It's just with the chamber change and 2 lower res cost the aliens are actually trying something new. Now it's your turn, marine! Try turning off the "rush rush rush" mode you've gotten so accustomed to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Aliens from 1 minute onwards have 3 upgrade chambers of their choice and it's not till about 2 minutes (half way to fades) that you can make a move to seriously counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really think about that.. how is this any different from the betas? Is focus more powerful? Are there more upgrade chambers now? Are there less restrictions on what kind of chamber they can place first? Does the sensory chamber have a larger field of effect?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You HAVE to do a1 first and then once that's up you're free to get observatories, MT or whatever the hell you want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this railroad line of thinking is where you're having problems.
You're dealing with sensory aliens now.. but that could have happened in any previous game. What's different between then and now? Well.. there are really only four things:
1. Innate regeneration.
2. Alien flashlight.
3. Marine shotgun.
4. No res skulk upgrades.
Now, free skulk upgarades I don't really agree with, as I think forcing skulks to make that small choice increased the skill. With free upgrades, all the skulks are upgrading and realizing that hey, it really does help.
That said, it was only 2 res before for goodness sakes. Hardly what could be considered game-breaking for the alien team, especially given the success they seem to be having in ripping you apart by using them.
So that leaves 1, 2, and 3. I'll admit, put those altogether and that's a a hell of a punch. Still, they can be dealt with.
Item 2 means marines have lost their mastery of the dark corner. No longer can they hide in the shadows and hope to nail the aliens with impunity for a half-second or two before the alien spots them. However, the easiest way to adapt to this is simply to leave the dark areas to the aliens. Stay in the light, because they have to get all the way to you, which means they get exposed.
Item 3 can be adapted to. Learn to hold your fire. Don't shoot indiscriminately with a shotgun, and wait til you see the fungus of their eyes.
Item 1 is the toughie, it's a new advantage aliens have been given, and not one that the marines can really adapt to. If an imbalance does exist, I'd say it probably comes from this change, because the power of field healing is very strong, even at only 2%, as it shortens the time the aliens have to pull back between attacks, and essentially gives every alien an ongoing HP boost. Take too long to kill one, and he's back up a point.
So, pulling this altogether into the main topic: Your problem isn't sensory chambers, because anything you're seeing now could have been done before, and if you can't adapt to it now, you wouldn't have adapted to it then.
However, your problem may be in innate regeneration.
If the comm ain't covering you, or you don't teamwork, you are bound to loose anyways no matter what chamber.
Perhaps this is the thinking that's giving you trouble.
Hmm.. this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Maybe we don't have the teamwork as marines?! Not likely, we're a clan, we've played every day for the past 6 months, we've got better teamwork than you could ever imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does not jibe with this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We have to adapt to dropping two carapace skulks with 1 clip of LMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds to me like the aliens are the one with the teamwork H4X here.
Teamwork isn't just having a good plan and all being able to execute it, it's being able to cover your friend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.
I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey.. I'm not the one who claimed they're having to take down 2 carapaced skulks with 1 LMG clip. I just pointed out that that situation doesn't sound like marine teamwork.
And just because you play the game more doesn't necessarily mean you've tried alternate strategies. Given how long the basic strategy of the betas has been in place, I'd be willing to be there have been some pretty strong habits formed.
the fact that the competetive community pretty much moved from dc first to mc first during the betas proves this wrong =/
I dont know... you keep telling us to adapt, and get better teamwork, but you fail to see that we (the competetive community) are the people who play the game the most, and always play together.
If we need 2 months to adapt, and get enough teamwork to handle 3.0f marine rounds, how long do you expect the casual player to take?
Now regardless of whether or not the version is poorly balanced, I find this argument rediculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey.. I'm not the one who claimed they're having to take down 2 carapaced skulks with 1 LMG clip. I just pointed out that that situation doesn't sound like marine teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you are forgetting yet another alien advantage:
Aliens choose when to attack. If one marine spilts up from another and 2 skulks with carapace suddenly attack him, that is not the marine's fault.
Furthermore marines frequently need to spilt up because they need to control the map. Back in the day one marine used to be a threat, but not anymore. Since aliens tech faster, attack faster and more often, and now have a stronger early game, marines cannot compete.
Stop using hypothetical arguments to contest with players with real experience. It is absurd.
The question does remain though, why is this so powerful now, yet was "unworkable" or at the very presumed to be relatively easy to counter in B5?
Scan is cheaper, so is it free upgrades, or cloak whilst moving that is causing the problem? Those are the only differences in the early game. Two obs give a commander the ability to scan more or less constantly, so for 60 res, you get a hard counter to cloaking, plus it means that the commander has a significantly better intelligence gathering capacity.
D: free upgrades make all the difference, in b5 skulks playing in matches generally couldnt afford to get any upgrades because they were saving for a hive or a fade or more rts, it was just a bad idea until the second hive was up. Now that abilities are being used by every single skulk all the time from pretty much the first minute of the game it has (SHOCK) created an inblalance in the early game, especially with scs.
I'd also like to ask how exactly marine play is supposed to adapt to sc? people have already demonstrated how it's impossible to counter sc first in the first 2 minutes of a game and then very expensive for the rest. Good clans already have alot of experience, alot of teamwork, and alot of players with good aim, we already have comms who know how to technically counter scs first, it's just that they are so strong in this version due mainly to free upgrades but also a combination of all the other alien buffs that it is extremely difficult to succesfully counter.
edit: edit for above post, yes 2 early obs would allow for much more scanning which would undoubtedly help against cloaked skulks, however, this only applies to the early game. after fades arrive and the second hive is building focus with spore support is much more desireable so your expensive early investment in 2 obs is not particularily great. Plus the fact that building to obs soon enough that they would be useful to marines in the field early game means you have to sacrifice some other tech or recapping rts which are neccisary to a sucessful marine game.
You have to decide whether to go for early MT or a1, or early upg AA right at the start of the game, before you can decide what chamber you are playing against... this means you really have no choice but to take the safest route - a1. When you have found out what chamber they have dropped it is already too late to do something about it by changing your build order...
the fact that the competetive community pretty much moved from dc first to mc first during the betas proves this wrong =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
90-95% of pubs have FF off, after all
Aliens from 1 minute onwards have 3 upgrade chambers of their choice and it's not till about 2 minutes (half way to fades) that you can make a move to seriously counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really think about that.. how is this any different from the betas? Is focus more powerful? Are there more upgrade chambers now? Are there less restrictions on what kind of chamber they can place first? Does the sensory chamber have a larger field of effect?
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You HAVE to do a1 first and then once that's up you're free to get observatories, MT or whatever the hell you want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this railroad line of thinking is where you're having problems.
You're dealing with sensory aliens now.. but that could have happened in any previous game. What's different between then and now? Well.. there are really only four things:
1. Innate regeneration.
2. Alien flashlight.
3. Marine shotgun.
4. No res skulk upgrades.
Now, free skulk upgarades I don't really agree with, as I think forcing skulks to make that small choice increased the skill. With free upgrades, all the skulks are upgrading and realizing that hey, it really does help.
That said, it was only 2 res before for goodness sakes. Hardly what could be considered game-breaking for the alien team, especially given the success they seem to be having in ripping you apart by using them.
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Before you read this, I'd like to make clear that I am not advocating one position or another. I am only sharing what my observations have been, in case anyone is misguided enough to actually want to read them, so don't get all huffy just because a competitive player is saying something you might disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (at least, not until you've finished reading it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
If we are discussing the differences, there are a few other things that immediately come to mind (and I'm sure many others that don't), that you omitted:
1) sensory chambers provide localized scent of fear
Though Comrade said much of this, I think it bears mentioning again: it was previously very risky to boost or mine-ladder into a vent to take out a sensory chamber. It generally took long enough to do the boosting and shooting that it took two pings. With provided scent of fear, it is rather easy to guarantee a quick response to any such attempt. Assuming the aliens decide to put the sensory chambers in vents (as is traditionally done at almost all skill levels), it is not terribly difficult to prevent marines from attacking them. Vents tend to take two marines to get in to. It is not terribly difficult for a lone cloaking skulk to pick off one marine from a group before dying to the remainder. Hopefully that is not something people will disagree with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. It is also not too hard to bunny-hop in and take out a marine while they are trying to stack into a vent. It is even easier to take them out with a lerk (which, by the time the sensories are up, the marines have an obs, the marines have located the sensory, and the marines have gotten enough men there to boost, is likely to be available). Since it tends to take at least two marines to get into the vent, and the odds of losing a marine in the process, thus making it impossible to get in the vent until another arrives, are not insignificant, it might make sense to send more than two.
Obviously, it is not impossible to take out sensory chambers in vents. My point is just that it is not trivial to take out sensory chambers. If a team allocates three marines to go after a sensory in a vent, that leaves only two other marines to cap nodes for their team and assault alien nodes. These two remaining marines pretty much have to stick together, since, as has been mentioned by many people, a lone marine stands little chance against cloaking skulks. Even if the marines manage to remove two sensory chambers from vents, that still leaves one on the starting hive. One sensory chamber provides most of the important points of cloaking and focus. A skulk is still just as cloaked; he need only wait longer between ambushes, which is rarely a problem. Focus still allows skulks and fades to take out armor-less marines (which a sporing lerk can easily generate, or at least force the marines to spend too much time welding and make it easy for a cloaking skulk to sneak in) in one hit. Even if the marines devote the time and risk to assault sensory chambers in the vents, they are still stuck dividing two marines between capping their own nodes and attacking the alien nodes. Either they will be strapped for res when assaulting the building second hive, or the aliens will have plenty of res with which to build new chambers and get more lifeforms out. If marines do not take out alien nodes, they tend to be in trouble. If marines do not cap nodes of their own, they tend to be in trouble. Sensory chambers in vents add one more vital thing for marines to deal with, while making the first two rather more difficult. In competitive play, this can be a problem, as marines only have five people in the field to assign to these tasks.
2) upgrades are much quicker than previously
Res costs aside, it was difficult to justify sitting there for 30 seconds getting two upgrades when your second hive was under attack and you were likely to get shotgunned three seconds after movementing in anyway.
3) skulks remain cloaked while moving
Arguments about how hard it is to see/shoot bunnyhopping cloaked skulks aside, this has another effect: a skulk can run into position at full speed, and then stop and be cloaked as normal. He does not have to wait for the usual time for the cloaking to set in. It used to be that a skulk would have to be careful when cloaking, and worry about having to stand still for the cloaking to kick in while a marine was approaching and might round the corner at any minute. This is not so much of a concern any more.
Now, about the change in res costs: no one is asserting that 2 res will break the bank. The problem is that the upgrade cost for skulks gets paid many times. A skulk might die 5 times before hitting 50 res for fade or hive. If upgrades were 2 res, that would leave him with 40 res, instead, meaning the fade would be delayed a fair bit (recall that a skulk starts with 25 res, so the skulk ends up having gained 15 res instead of 25, and the skulk has 1.66 times as long to wait for the res). This gets even worse later in the game, where you have two-hive skulks versus upgraded marines with Big Guns. At two hives, it cost 4 res to get upgrades, and a skulk was often more likely to die than get a kill. A skulk had to get two kills (on average) to pay for the upgrades, which was even less likely. Multiply this by the many deaths likely versus, say, a squad of hmg/sgs with mines who are sieging a hive, and that 4 res per life adds up very, very quickly (plus, as mentioned, this would greatly delay the rate at which fresh skulks are charging the marines, due to the difference in gestation time--it is important to keep sieging marines busy so that they do not have time to reload, weld, and build between attacks). Now a skulk can get (say) silence and focus for 0 res in little time, leap in, die, and keep doing so.
some other stuff:
I do not think anyone anywhere is trying to argue that marines do not need teamwork. In competitive play, marines have always needed teamwork. I think that people get the impression that competitive marines do not use teamwork because they see clanners run around on pubs by themselves and kill 40 skulks without dying. There are important differences between pubs and organized play, as I'm sure everyone would agree. A few of the germane ones are that on pubs, skulks walk in straight lines, sit in obvious camping spots, and have little teamwork of their own. Lone marines did not tend to live long in competitive play in b5 (Mustang notwithstanding), and they live for even less time in 3.0 final.
Again, I am not saying any of these differences make the game better or worse. I just saw some points that seemed to be overlooked in the discussion.
Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?
[EDIT]This is probably going to be met with derision, but it shouldn't take much to boost hand grenades to the point where they would be able to winkle out chambers in vents.[/EDIT]
Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?
[EDIT]This is probably going to be met with derision, but it shouldn't take much to boost hand grenades to the point where they would be able to winkle out chambers in vents.[/EDIT] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you nerf the fade, then you are going to make balancing this game a nightmare.
Guarenteed.
I actually agree with that, other than your use of the term 'winkle'.
Was not one of the main problems of beta 5 was that marines were able to dominate the map to too great a degree?
Perhaps the problem is not so much with free upgrades as with the Fade being beefed to the point that it helped to offset the Kharaa's dismal early game? Now that the Kharaa don't have the same early game issues, perhaps now would be a good time to re-examine the kharaa's reliance on the Fade?
I can't see it being a good idea to get rid of upgraded skulks as it allows more diversity in the Kharaa's early game and more importantly, is much more fun for kharaa players.
The way I see it, if seems as though the kharaa have gained a large boost in their teching speed. The two options that logically present themselves therefore are either to reduce the power of that tech in the mid game or to increase the speed with which marines can tech. Or perhaps a combination of both.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good analysis.
I'd like to take the time to say that most, if not all, of the changes (barring cloaking which I have no love for at all) are changes I would want included in the game.
The delay when going through a PG helps eliminate the PG as an offensive weapon (beacon, pg, beacon, pg), which is an element on NS I never really liked.
Free upgrade for skulks makes the alien game more diverse and allows for a more free choice of chamber.
Innate regen is a good idea and makes sense, to lessen reliance on DCs for lerks and fades (to a degree).
Now, while I agree with all these changes, I dont agree in the way they were implemented without thought of the consequences.
Your analysis is exactly what should have been made during the beta testing, and is one that ahs been brought up a few times by competetive players (in particular) during the course of the time elapsed since 3.0f release.
The question does remain though, why is this so powerful now, yet was "unworkable" or at the very presumed to be relatively easy to counter in B5?
Scan is cheaper, so is it free upgrades, or cloak whilst moving that is causing the problem? Those are the only differences in the early game. Two obs give a commander the ability to scan more or less constantly, so for 60 res, you get a hard counter to cloaking, plus it means that the commander has a significantly better intelligence gathering capacity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the fact that every alien can get upgrades now, moving with cloak isn't really the big deal. With sensory the main problem are the relentless waves of focus, cloaked skulks who know exactly how many marines there are and where they are when they are near the areas the aliens need to hold.
Before, when skulks took upgrades it delayed the hive and fades and was still pretty fair, but now taking upgrades just makes it harder for marines to do anything, delaying their game and speeding up the alien game.
not to mention that cloak is no fun and actually promotes idiotic, uncooperative play
I would appreciate that.
I would appreciate that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldnt... huge changes are fun.
Personally i wouldn't like to see changes made to the fade because i really like the way it works right now, and i don't believe the way to correct the inbalance caused by giving a big boost to the alien early game is to nerf the mid game.