Training Map Release Thread

Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
edited March 2005 in Mapping Forum
maybeee?
I just got a message from Nemesis Zero with a quote (possibly from Tyr i dunno), anyway the message says it all really
QUOTE
Hello Matt,

I'm sorry to read that you did not receive a response
to your previous submissions - it not having been my
responsibility until recently, all I can offer in
terms of consolation is that we apparently already
raised measures against the issue.

Cutting it short, I've got to decline your submission,
for two reasons, one generic, the other specific:
Generally, we are not going to include a training map
in 3.0 because the effort of proper integration is too
high for this late stage of development. The effort you
put up in circumventing these technical limitations is
admirable, but as you'll agree, it is still sketchy.
The ball is in our field; we are aware of this, and have
medium-range plans for the resolution of the problem,
but until then, there won't be an official NS training
map.
Specifically, I'm sorry to say that your map is not up
to the visual standards we are imposing on our official
lineup. If you wish, I'll get you a more detailed list
of this point of criticism.

I am certain you will be upset by this message. This is
a good sign: You created something, put *care* into it,
and now, we are dismissing this effort. Please believe
me when I say we aren't. We can not accept your work in
this form, but this does not mean we do not appreciate
it. I am certain your map will remain a success as a
private release, and am hopeful that this will not
keep you from continuing your career as level designer.

Take care,

-- Florian Schwarzer
www.NaturalSelection.org
Project Manager

Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • SpacerSpacer Invented dogs Members Join Date: 2003-05-02 Member: 16008Posts: 1,527
  • EnceladusEnceladus Members Join Date: 2004-01-18 Member: 25442Posts: 346
    awww sad-fix.gif
    sorry to hear that

    but err..

    QUOTE
    Specifically, I'm sorry to say that your map is not up
    to the visual standards we are imposing on our official
    lineup. If you wish, I'll get you a more detailed list
    of this point of criticism.


    I want to see that detailed list. wow.gif
  • Steel_TrollSteel_Troll Members Join Date: 2004-02-12 Member: 26455Posts: 550
    I am very sorry to hear this, i have been watching the progress of your training map with anticipation, and was realy hoping it would go into NS as official.

    The devs did raise some good points but im quite saddend, i hope you ask for the list of things that need changing
    QUOTE

    Specifically, I'm sorry to say that your map is not up
    to the visual standards we are imposing on our official
    lineup. If you wish, I'll get you a more detailed list
    of this point of criticism.


    Hmm the next thing i would say is maybe work with a mapper who knows what the devs are looking for. Mendsap or just to get some ideas and infoon what visual things you could do to spurce things up.

    What i do have to say is that if at first you dont succede, try try again.
    Hopefully the devs give you a more definitive list of what exactly they want you to improve, and dont give up hope, there are loads of people behind you!

    Keep up the good work!!
    IPB Image
    (old)Sig removed. Flames prohibited. Period.
    QUOTE
    2. Sig Content. Use common sense here. I haven't seen any violations yet, so congratulations.
    Nem0 is congratulating me :)
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
    yeah that single quote was by the most devastating thing there, even more so than getting the map declined itself.

    id like to take this moment tho, to thank everyone who helped out with content, comments and testing, this map wuldnt hav even got off the ground if it wasnt for u guys, especially sorcerer and darkhand.

    im gonna have to take some time out to think whether i want to continue with this project or release it as is, after all this was meant to be my last map and i wanted it to end with official status. but oh well, at least i can positively say that i am proud of this map, especially with all the problems which we encountered on the way, its a testamont to the ppl involved that we ever managed to finish it.


    Meat
  • Tef_FourtyTwoTef_FourtyTwo Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-10-25 Member: 21967Posts: 49
    That sucks, your mod looked great, and i can appreciate them not putting it in 3.0 but not accepting it sucks **** man...

    my condolances
    42, beating you until you follow the waypoint
  • Lt_GravityLt_Gravity Members Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Posts: 1,594
    QUOTE
    Specifically, I'm sorry to say that your map is not up
    to the visual standards we are imposing on our official
    lineup. If you wish, I'll get you a more detailed list
    of this point of criticism.


    o_0 so they final get lost of tanith?

    seriously, the "visual standart" is the last thing I would critize about this map. Im refering to the video when I state that this map looks decent and does have ns atmosphere in it.

    meat: dont quit. I dont know what the devs dont like but keep on! shure, its hard to get this map round since it inst a fullfrag ns or co map. but you could do something against it: release a beta. and take this cookies ... *Lt. Gravity gives Meat Popsicle the "Let-the-sun-shine"-cookie*

    IPB Image
    Give custom maps a chance!
  • Tak3rTak3r Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-02-16 Member: 26625Posts: 57 Advanced user
    Meat, sorry to hear man. I still think the map looks kick ****... but thats me. Just don't feel down. Im sure offical or not this map will be awesome. smile-fix.gif
    user posted image :3am:Taker
    user posted image
  • PRTePRTe Members Join Date: 2003-10-25 Member: 21919Posts: 607
    noooo...... how can this be??? sad-fix.gif

    but either way release the map, although it won''t be any good to newbs who don't download custom maps.

    continue working meat popsicle wink-fix.gif
    Parasit3/ Eolesh
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    Well, after all the work you've put into this map I would probably start another (ns, or otherwise) project. If there's something this mod rocks at, is at making mappers better and better as they keep working on their maps.

    And, finally, release what you're comfortable with, that's what it counts.

    And judging by that trailer you released, you made a kickass map, congrats.
  • NaigelNaigel Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18376Posts: 651
    /me wants to know the detailed list.
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    - IPB Image Constellation member - naigel.nl - naturalselection.com - egir.dk -
  • J_D_WJ_D_W Members Join Date: 2003-05-22 Member: 16598Posts: 311
    OMGGG
    Its not april fools is it?
    I thought the map was better than most maps in terms of graphics and besides its HL1 you cant expect much.......
    At least put it in the NS/maps folder and in the manual....... graphics DO NOT matter.
    IPB Image
    Memento Mori ingame.
  • FooFoo Members Join Date: 2003-07-31 Member: 18632Posts: 70
    QUOTE
    Specifically, I'm sorry to say that your map is not up
    to the visual standards we are imposing on our official
    lineup.


    Yeah well most of the 'official' maps follow suit too.....
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, ArizonaMembers, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Posts: 756 admin
    I mean, look how much Siege007 is played? It should be official (maybe a few little touchups) graphics wise, but your map is AMAZING. Its beautiful, and you should at least release it and continue the adding to it, I mean, no reason to just let it die. That's like creating the best car in the world and then just letting it sit in storage. And remember those assassin's are still after you and can only be called off once the map is released.
    CDT Map Testing Lead and NA Playtesting Whip
    Steam / Watch live video from zavaro on Twitch / Twitter
    Have a bug in NS2? Report it in the thread! If you can, post how to reproduce it, or private message me on the forum!
  • Lt.RealnessLt.Realness Members Join Date: 2004-03-17 Member: 27379Posts: 740 Fully active user
    hey Meat! I'm very sorry to hear this sad-fix.gif

    I liked the preview video very much and I dunno what could be wrong about the map =(

    but as gravity said: keep on working! I'll definitely play your beta (if there will be one)
    85.236.98.56:27015 #yo-clan | www.yoclan.com [Classic Only]
  • NetBentNetBent Members Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16386Posts: 152
    I wonder if the devs have played any combat, because those maps sure do set the visual bar... Sava and Core are really the only ones I would hold up to a high visual standard.

    This sucks meat. You put a lot of effort in this and I hope you do a private release.

  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    I was pleasantly surprised by the visuals of the map. Maybe there are some things that could be worked on (I'd have to take a thorough look through the map to say what) but I'm sure it couldn't be too exhaustive a list - more minor touches and refinements. Ask the Devs for the list of improvements, it'll help you improve as a mapper whether you intend to apply them to the map or not.

    You've put more than enough effort into this map, and I don't think anyone (apart from Lt. "Fight the Power" Gravity) would blame you for releasing it as it is. If you release it now and go through some beta testing then there's always the chance for re-application for this or a future (perhaps Source) version of NS.

    NS would definitely be better off with an introductory tutorial map, a problem that you've addressed and provided a solution for. You've completed the map to a high standard with a notably NS atmosphere to it. That is something to be proud of, official or not.
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
    the following is my response to the initial message and Nemesis Zeros response to that...

    QUOTE
    QUOTE
    hmm well thank u for a proper response even if it did take a while..

    i certainly hope u played the latest version i sent to Tyr last week and understood that i tried to make a complete training map, which covered everything including comm training (obviously a massive part of the game to new players even if theyre not going to use it) despite the obvious limitations of the mapping entities being designed for fps'ers. there was allways going to be coding required to get it to work, but i hoped u wuld have seen the potential of a map like this as oppose to other training maps which r essentially an audio manual where players will learn nothing. And as far as im concerned the only coding required wuld be a level change entity, and something that can trigger the game without sv_cheats or restrict the fast build and research times.


    Your project was certainly the most ambitious of its kind, and it is impressive that you truly consider this one entity the only thing you need, but our plans are honestly a little more far reaching than that. The good news is that you'll likely be able to profit of these changes once they are made, in more ways than you'd think.

    QUOTE
    as for the not visually up to standard comment this was what i found to be the most devastating... every mapper has his own style but i positively believed that this map was of official quality when compared to some of the other official maps, but i spose ur viewing it from a fresh pair of eyes which is unfortunately something i cant do.

    Speaking as someone who had two maps vetoed by Flayra due to visual considerations, I can definetly see what you mean. The thing you should consider is that this feedback should not deduct from your artistic self-esteem. Most everyone with enough stamina to create a project such as this will have defined an own style, and if that does not line up with other people's expectations, it really is unfortunate, but sadly not easily remediable.


    QUOTE
    i would appreciate ur feedback on the visual side of things tho, even tho i havnt decided on the future of the map and whether its worth releasing at all with the whole 'not fully supported commander training section' (something which i wuld hav simplified greatly if the structure entities worked properlly, and i had support for stopping mp3 files)

    We're currently very deep in work, so I can't promise my feedback will arrive soon, but you'll get a detailed mail as soon as I can afford.

    Thanks for taking it as well as you do. I hope to be able to come to a more favorable conclusion regarding your further work in the future.

    -- Florian


    it sounds like im not gonna get feedback any time soon (if at all), so im gonna (begrudgingly) release my map soon, if thats ok with sorcerer as hes hosting it at the mo

    Meat
  • aonomusaonomus Dedicated NS Mastermind (no need for school) Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-11-26 Member: 23605Posts: 622
    I can mirror it temporarily on the half done readyroom.org site which does not have its domain redirected properly yet... (damnit MonsE!). Good work, don't get discouraged though, your time shal come.
    user posted image

    QUOTE (Nemesis Zero)
    ***Locked.*** (God, I missed this...)
  • EnceladusEnceladus Members Join Date: 2004-01-18 Member: 25442Posts: 346
    well.. I kind of doubt that your trainings map get's downloaded more than 65000 times within one month, so.. yeah, I think from the hosting part you can feel free to release it wink-fix.gif
  • TaaketaTaaketa Members Join Date: 2004-02-10 Member: 26357Posts: 202
    QUOTE (Sorcerer @ Mar 3 2005, 05:53 PM)
    well.. I kind of doubt that your trainings map get's downloaded more than 65000 times within one month, so.. yeah, I think from the hosting part you can feel free to release it wink-fix.gif

    That can be arranged. *Sneaky gangster laugh*
    Left NS due to player bases being better in other games.
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
    edited March 2005
    ok im gonna be mean and make u wait one more day then, this is to give everyone time to take in the following rules and not just download it and **** about it tounge.gif

    anyway...


    THIS IS AN INCOMPLETE MAP! IT CANNOT EVER BE COMPLETED WITHOUT CODING INTERVENTION, NS JUST DOES NOT HAV THE ENTS!

    Also being a single player map for a multiplayer game means it has to be run with certain considerations...

    1. for simplicity, run the map from the shortcut provided. If the provided link does not work either modify the shortcut or go to "play games" of steam, rightclick on natural selection and create a desktop shortcut. Within that created shortcut go into the launch parameter where it says STEAM.exe -applaunch 70 -game "ns"
    add
    -console -32bpp +map ns_training +sv_cheats 1 +cl_musicenabled 0
    behind it. and lauch ns with that shortcut.

    2. the map comes with a custom titles.txt so make a backup of your old one, if u speak a different language/have bots

    3. no F1'ing or F2'ing to trigger the round start. itll happen when the maps ready and not when u walk thru the 'join marines' bit

    4. Alt-tabbing out can mess up the audio synching of events (especially in the briefing room, just sit it out, i promise once the educational crap gets out of the way it gets better)

    5. unfortunately due to sv_cheats being on build and research times r about 10 times quicker than in an actual game, this means sounds will overrun if u drop an object in the commander training section before the audio has finished describing it.

    if u didnt get that last point, just play the map like if u were a nub and take ur time. i will release it tommorow and ignore any comments from ppl who clearly havnt read thru this

    Meat



    and remember any training map wuld hav to hav the above taken into consideration without help in the form of coding, please do not judge the map on it..

    p.s. the target_mp3 enetity is notoriously dodgy, if the begginings of sounds r cut off resulting in dodgy synching, again its not my fault biggrin-fix.gif
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • CarNagE1CarNagE1 PolandMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16298Posts: 586 Advanced user
    thats a very bad news :/ i hoped that NS team will consider puting this map officialy. It is a great work, thay should put it in NS untill there is no official NS Traning map, its not a problem change the map in the future. That map would be a great thing to start for a beginers.I can make a mirror of your grate map on our portal (Overmind.pl) PM me.
    imageimage image
    Main Editor of www.naturalselection2.pl
  • EnceladusEnceladus Members Join Date: 2004-01-18 Member: 25442Posts: 346
    edited March 2005
    QUOTE (Meat Popsicle @ Mar 4 2005, 12:29 AM)
    hmm i missed anything sorc?

    - the trainings map comes with a custom titles.txt so make a backup of your old one.
    - If the provided link does not work go to "play games" of steam, rightclick on natural selection and create a desktop shortcut. Within that created shortcut go into the launch parameter where it says STEAM.exe -applaunch 70 -game "ns"
    add
    +map ns_training +sv_cheats 1 +cl_musicenabled 0
    behind it. and lauch ns with that shortcut.
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
    ah yeh, cheers
    *added to previous post*
  • BigDBigD [OldF] Members Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1596Posts: 1,056 Advanced user
    Good to see you not taking it too hard. It's a shame it isn't going to become official though. I wonder, if it wouldn't be difficult to create a plugin that goes along with the map (much like those mvm plugins) that sets things for people? I'm sure someone over at www.modns.org would be able to help you to automate the switching between the titles.txt files and setting sv_cheats and what not, perhaps? I dunno, an idea anyway.

    If nothing else there was closure for ya. confused-fix.gif
    www.oldf.net
  • NaigelNaigel Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18376Posts: 651
    I could mirror it for ya. PM me the details if you want.
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    - IPB Image Constellation member - naigel.nl - naturalselection.com - egir.dk -
  • Meat_PopsicleMeat_Popsicle Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19254Posts: 535
    QUOTE (BigD @ Mar 3 2005, 09:48 PM)
    Good to see you not taking it too hard. It's a shame it isn't going to become official though. I wonder, if it wouldn't be difficult to create a plugin that goes along with the map (much like those mvm plugins) that sets things for people? I'm sure someone over at www.modns.org would be able to help you to automate the switching between the titles.txt files and setting sv_cheats and what not, perhaps? I dunno, an idea anyway.

    If nothing else there was closure for ya. confused-fix.gif

    that is a damn good idea!

    itll be interesting to see what they say can be coded for it, i guess ill hav to make an installer it for it as well tho, anyone know how i can go about this?

    im gonna delay the release until i look more into this, sorry guys, but if they culd create a script that lets me trigger the game start without sv_cheats then my map will be in a playable enough state to release properlly smile-fix.gif
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Posts: 4,412
    edited March 2005
    So what they are saying is they dont have the time to code one of the single most needed features of this game. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm really worried about where this mod is going lately, although I'm pretty sure its somewhere down the toilet.
  • KungFuDiscoMonkeyKungFuDiscoMonkey Creator of ns_altair 日本福岡県Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14555Posts: 2,589 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Supernorn @ Mar 4 2005, 08:54 AM)
    So what they are saying is they dont have the time to code one of the single most needed features of this game. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm really worried about where this mod is going lately, although I'm pretty sure its somewhere down the toilet.

    I assure you the NS team is doing a lot better than the ZP team . . . .
    Serriously what is with all the naysayers lately. The dev team/playtester team/contributers invest hundreds of man hours into a game that hits all kinds of limits and is one of the most unique mods out there, and they upload it for free . . yet everyday there are more and more people complaining about things.

    Time is the ultimate limiter for everyone. Especially since noone gets paid, noone can devote all of their time into developing NS as their job. Considering what y'all get for free, I don't think you have any right to complain.
    毎日勉強したら上手になるよ
  • SupernornSupernorn Best. Picture. Ever. Made. Ever. Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7608Posts: 4,412
    QUOTE
    the dev team/playtester team/contributers invest hundreds of man hours into a game that hits all kinds of limits and is one of the most unique mods out there, and they upload it for free . . yet everyday there are more and more people complaining about things.


    Its happening for a reason. Things that need to be addressed get ignored or put aside, and things that dont need touching get "fixed" (i.e. Broken)
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