<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm all for people being able to own guns, I just don't see why they need to be allowed to carry them on the street. It the eyes of a criminal it turns everybody into a threat to their life. It will be like natural selection, only the criminals who learn to shoot first and ask questions later will live and prosper.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, if you think about it, most criminals don't ever want to interact with anyone besides the direct victim. More people simply equals more problems, and the possibility that even two of those people happen to be armed is too much of a risk. You assume that every criminal is either an insane criminal mastermind or a desperate coke addict. Most of the time, the criminal, while having obvious emotional problems, is fairly normal. In fact, I'd say the majority of crimes committed in America are done by fairly "normal" people.
Your opinion, given these new things, essentially comes to this: while crime as a whole will probably drop, the amount of violence used in the average crime will climb. I can live with that; you cannot.
Therefore, we seem to disagree in our world outlook on these issues. That's what I love about living here in the USA; we can still disagree wholeheartedly about things like this, but we are both free to express these opinions in a productive manner.
and if everyone had a gun, so many people would die that eventually people would learn that crime didn't pay, and that no matter how good you were you'd most likely end up going down in a blaze of fire!
so there'd be a few causualities but in the long run people would stop commiting crimes
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 09:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and if everyone had a gun, so many people would die that eventually people would learn that crime didn't pay, and that no matter how good you were you'd most likely end up going down in a blaze of fire!
so there'd be a few causualities but in the long run people would stop commiting crimes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats flipping bull****. What would really happen: Civilians get freaked out because criminals can no longer trust that they aren't carrying a gun and kill them on sight whilst commiting crimes, crime continues to pay. Suddenly civilians are just as jumpy as the criminals and start pulling guns on eachother and mistakenly killing other innocent people. Meanwhile the criminals are organizing for their saftey and learning as they go, they become proficient and kill many more people (because anybody in the room could have a gun, better kill them all). Citizens eventually form their own groups and before you know it its pretty much a war.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, if you think about it, most criminals don't ever want to interact with anyone besides the direct victim. More people simply equals more problems, and the possibility that even two of those people happen to be armed is too much of a risk. You assume that every criminal is either an insane criminal mastermind or a desperate coke addict. Most of the time, the criminal, while having obvious emotional problems, is fairly normal. In fact, I'd say the majority of crimes committed in America are done by fairly "normal" people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your opinion, given these new things, essentially comes to this: while crime as a whole will probably drop, the amount of violence used in the average crime will climb. I can live with that; you cannot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, my opinion is that crime rates would be about the stame, yet become more violent. There is no gain in that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you realize this or not, but there was a time when a majority of people had their guns with them on a consistent basis and what you are talking about did not happen as often as you think it might. A person with a gun is dangerous, and therefore not a good target. Criminals will not shoot first and ask questions later, since a gun is easily tracked.
Criminals want to avoid harming a victim, since they leave behind DNA through too many ways to cover up. If the average person potentially is packing a weapon, that ups their risk exponentially. By shooting first and asking questions later, the criminal is leaving behind a bullet, which easily identifies the gun, which always has a trail. Not to mention that if the victim survives, he/she could possibly identifiy some of the criminal's traits, either through the voice, the face, etc.
As I mentioned earlier, most criminals are "normal" people. The kind of "shoot first" criminals you are talking about will never be the norm, simply put. Crime levels will drop if more people carry guns, but the average amount of violence used will climb, since it will require a more extreme lifestyle to be a criminal than now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Deus Ex Machina+Feb 13 2005, 07:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Deus Ex Machina @ Feb 13 2005, 07:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its not exactly "time".
<!--QuoteBegin-illuminex+Feb 17 2005, 07:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (illuminex @ Feb 17 2005, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you realize this or not, but there was a time when a majority of people had their guns with them on a consistent basis and what you are talking about did not happen as often as you think it might. A person with a gun is dangerous, and therefore not a good target. Criminals will not shoot first and ask questions later, since a gun is easily tracked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not as easily as you seem to think. Its easy enouugh to do tests and say "this gun fired this bullet", but you have to have the gun in the first place. There are already tons of unsolved gun murders in this country, why do you seem to think that its that hard to get away with?
And if you're thinking of the old west, are you seriously going to tell me that crime rates were low, or that crime was less violent back then?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Criminals want to avoid harming a victim, since they leave behind DNA through too many ways to cover up. If the average person potentially is packing a weapon, that ups their risk exponentially. By shooting first and asking questions later, the criminal is leaving behind a bullet, which easily identifies the gun, which always has a trail. Not to mention that if the victim survives, he/she could possibly identifiy some of the criminal's traits, either through the voice, the face, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, for DNA and ballistics to be any good you have to already have a suspect to match the DNA and a gun to match the ballistics. Its not as though we can do test and say "yep, this DNA is john q sixpack alright", unless they have a record, but even then you have to find the guy, which is not as easy as you think. As for eye witnesses, well, all the more incentive to make sure no one who sees you lives to tell about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I mentioned earlier, most criminals are "normal" people. The kind of "shoot first" criminals you are talking about will never be the norm, simply put. Crime levels will drop if more people carry guns, but the average amount of violence used will climb, since it will require a more extreme lifestyle to be a criminal than now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not at all. Look at gans and their related crime. There is a very good chance that you will get killed by rival gangs for being in a gang, yet there are still gangs.
Comments
Actually, if you think about it, most criminals don't ever want to interact with anyone besides the direct victim. More people simply equals more problems, and the possibility that even two of those people happen to be armed is too much of a risk. You assume that every criminal is either an insane criminal mastermind or a desperate coke addict. Most of the time, the criminal, while having obvious emotional problems, is fairly normal. In fact, I'd say the majority of crimes committed in America are done by fairly "normal" people.
Your opinion, given these new things, essentially comes to this: while crime as a whole will probably drop, the amount of violence used in the average crime will climb. I can live with that; you cannot.
Therefore, we seem to disagree in our world outlook on these issues. That's what I love about living here in the USA; we can still disagree wholeheartedly about things like this, but we are both free to express these opinions in a productive manner.
so there'd be a few causualities but in the long run people would stop commiting crimes
so there'd be a few causualities but in the long run people would stop commiting crimes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats flipping bull****. What would really happen: Civilians get freaked out because criminals can no longer trust that they aren't carrying a gun and kill them on sight whilst commiting crimes, crime continues to pay. Suddenly civilians are just as jumpy as the criminals and start pulling guns on eachother and mistakenly killing other innocent people. Meanwhile the criminals are organizing for their saftey and learning as they go, they become proficient and kill many more people (because anybody in the room could have a gun, better kill them all). Citizens eventually form their own groups and before you know it its pretty much a war.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, if you think about it, most criminals don't ever want to interact with anyone besides the direct victim. More people simply equals more problems, and the possibility that even two of those people happen to be armed is too much of a risk. You assume that every criminal is either an insane criminal mastermind or a desperate coke addict. Most of the time, the criminal, while having obvious emotional problems, is fairly normal. In fact, I'd say the majority of crimes committed in America are done by fairly "normal" people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your opinion, given these new things, essentially comes to this: while crime as a whole will probably drop, the amount of violence used in the average crime will climb. I can live with that; you cannot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, my opinion is that crime rates would be about the stame, yet become more violent. There is no gain in that.
They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you realize this or not, but there was a time when a majority of people had their guns with them on a consistent basis and what you are talking about did not happen as often as you think it might. A person with a gun is dangerous, and therefore not a good target. Criminals will not shoot first and ask questions later, since a gun is easily tracked.
Criminals want to avoid harming a victim, since they leave behind DNA through too many ways to cover up. If the average person potentially is packing a weapon, that ups their risk exponentially. By shooting first and asking questions later, the criminal is leaving behind a bullet, which easily identifies the gun, which always has a trail. Not to mention that if the victim survives, he/she could possibly identifiy some of the criminal's traits, either through the voice, the face, etc.
As I mentioned earlier, most criminals are "normal" people. The kind of "shoot first" criminals you are talking about will never be the norm, simply put. Crime levels will drop if more people carry guns, but the average amount of violence used will climb, since it will require a more extreme lifestyle to be a criminal than now.
Its not exactly "time".
They don't have to be insane to want to live. You seem to think that they're going to go around trying to mug people in the middle of the street in broad daylight. They will mug you when no one is around, just like normal. However, if you make any sudden movements, or someone else shows up they'll start shooting because their life is in danger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if you realize this or not, but there was a time when a majority of people had their guns with them on a consistent basis and what you are talking about did not happen as often as you think it might. A person with a gun is dangerous, and therefore not a good target. Criminals will not shoot first and ask questions later, since a gun is easily tracked.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not as easily as you seem to think. Its easy enouugh to do tests and say "this gun fired this bullet", but you have to have the gun in the first place. There are already tons of unsolved gun murders in this country, why do you seem to think that its that hard to get away with?
And if you're thinking of the old west, are you seriously going to tell me that crime rates were low, or that crime was less violent back then?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Criminals want to avoid harming a victim, since they leave behind DNA through too many ways to cover up. If the average person potentially is packing a weapon, that ups their risk exponentially. By shooting first and asking questions later, the criminal is leaving behind a bullet, which easily identifies the gun, which always has a trail. Not to mention that if the victim survives, he/she could possibly identifiy some of the criminal's traits, either through the voice, the face, etc. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, for DNA and ballistics to be any good you have to already have a suspect to match the DNA and a gun to match the ballistics. Its not as though we can do test and say "yep, this DNA is john q sixpack alright", unless they have a record, but even then you have to find the guy, which is not as easy as you think. As for eye witnesses, well, all the more incentive to make sure no one who sees you lives to tell about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
As I mentioned earlier, most criminals are "normal" people. The kind of "shoot first" criminals you are talking about will never be the norm, simply put. Crime levels will drop if more people carry guns, but the average amount of violence used will climb, since it will require a more extreme lifestyle to be a criminal than now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all. Look at gans and their related crime. There is a very good chance that you will get killed by rival gangs for being in a gang, yet there are still gangs.