Crime And Punishment
Deus_Ex_Machina
Join Date: 2004-07-01 Member: 29674Members
Join Date: 2004-07-01 Member: 29674Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">What should we do?</div> The prison population in the United States topped 2 million in 2002. The US has ~5% of the world's population, and ~25% of the world's prison population. A nonviolent drug offender who spends 3-5 years in prison as well as an obligatory parole period usually costs taxpayers about half a million dollars.
Instead of hitting Education and Medicaid hard this year with budget cuts, let's solve this problem once and for all by revamping the judicial system. No more 3 square meals, no prison utility costs, no guard paychecks, no nothing. The government should just kill anyone who commits a felony. No costly injection, no costly AND time consuming rehabilitation, just take them outside the courthouse, shoot them and roll the body into an incinerator, problem solved. Barbaric? Maybe.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Instead of hitting Education and Medicaid hard this year with budget cuts, let's solve this problem once and for all by revamping the judicial system. No more 3 square meals, no prison utility costs, no guard paychecks, no nothing. The government should just kill anyone who commits a felony. No costly injection, no costly AND time consuming rehabilitation, just take them outside the courthouse, shoot them and roll the body into an incinerator, problem solved. Barbaric? Maybe.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Comments
but I don't think thats a good idea, its inhumane, and horrible just to think of. is there no principle of forgiveness? is there no mercy? is there no hope for the hopeless? while I agree that our prisons are over croweded and overfunded this is a horrible extreme that should never even be considered
I am no friend of liberal soft-hand policy towards criminals, but what you are suggesting is nuts.
You should better search for the cause of this high percentage of criminal verdicts and eliminate that.
Me, I say that prisons in and of themselves are fighting the symptoms of the problem, not the cause. To relieve pressure on the prisons, people must be compelled away from crime, and towards productive lives. Sadly, I know too little about the inner workings of the U.S. society, but something must be causing all that crime, and that's where the effort has to be made.
This is a problem that won't go away until its fixed and grows exponentially.
I'm sorry but I honestly don't think there is any realistic way to fix this problem in this country.
Now for what I would <i>like</i> to be done. Make marijuana a legal substance that alone will cut down on many useless prison sentences.
Quit babying prisoners, many prisoners live better then lower class citizens. They do not need cable TV or any other luxuries; they need 3 walls a barred door and a toilet.
Speed up the death penalty in all states, override liberal state laws with one federal mandate. All states will have the death penalty for crimes deemed worthy of it and prisoners are executed the same week they are found guilty.
And of course lastly kill all non-citizen criminals on the spot. You come into this country illegally and commit a crime; we shoot you on the spot.
Sounds fair.
Well like I said this problem will never be fixed, but those are the solutions I would love to see implemented.
Why not make them support their own stay? Theres a new program out makes prisoners work for a living. So now prisoners MAKE money for the system. Infact there is a company that builds prison/factories simply for this reason, and they gross a large income working for certain factory companies. Plus since your paying them (far far below minimum wage and they are taxes around 7 cents an hour takehome) The inmates actually receive a wage. This is perfect for rehabilitation.
If by better developed, you mean too lenient, then I'm with you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Deus Ex? Are you insane or is this a joke? That question is not meant as a joke, just to prevent misunderstanding.
I am no friend of liberal soft-hand policy towards criminals, but what you are suggesting is nuts.
You should better search for the cause of this high percentage of criminal verdicts and eliminate that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, when you figure out what the cause for criminals is and can eliminate it, I'll endorse that approach any day of the week that ends with Y. Until then, I'll take the cost of a 9mm bullet over prison costs anyday.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunch them all up and put them on a far away island.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that one. Give them a few tools and let them figure out that society doesn't work with scum like them.
If by better developed, you mean too lenient, then I'm with you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Deus Ex? Are you insane or is this a joke? That question is not meant as a joke, just to prevent misunderstanding.
I am no friend of liberal soft-hand policy towards criminals, but what you are suggesting is nuts.
You should better search for the cause of this high percentage of criminal verdicts and eliminate that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, when you figure out what the cause for criminals is and can eliminate it, I'll endorse that approach any day of the week that ends with Y. Until then, I'll take the cost of a 9mm bullet over prison costs anyday.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunch them all up and put them on a far away island.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that one. Give them a few tools and let them figure out that society doesn't work with scum like them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't the British do that with Australia?
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But in all seriousness. We need to start taking ques from this man.
<a href='http://www.reelectjoe.com/issues/display_issues.cfm?ID=939406581' target='_blank'>http://www.reelectjoe.com/issues/display_i...fm?ID=939406581</a>
If by better developed, you mean too lenient, then I'm with you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I mean we have different levels of "bad", not just life vs. death. Leniency has nothing to do with being able to say what crimes deserve harsher punishment than others.
<!--QuoteBegin-Clashen+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Clashen)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bunch them all up and put them on a far away island<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then make a reality TV series out of it. Brilliant!
UZi has a pretty good idea there, though. Let's quote for emphasis:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not make them support their own stay? Theres a new program out makes prisoners work for a living. So now prisoners MAKE money for the system. Infact there is a company that builds prison/factories simply for this reason, and they gross a large income working for certain factory companies. Plus since your paying them (far far below minimum wage and they are taxes around 7 cents an hour takehome) The inmates actually receive a wage. This is perfect for rehabilitation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good to me. Who is served by having people sit on their **** all day long? Give 'em something to do instead.
This is a problem that won't go away until its fixed and grows exponentially. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. Futhermore there are plenty of places where many people can't even get a legit job if they wanted.
I went to a talk about hip-hop and white youth culture the other day, and the speaker (can't remember his name unfourtunatly) grew up in the Hamptons. Now most people think of the Hamptons as an upper class place, but there are quite a few ainly black neighborhoods literaly across the tracks from the rich white people's homes. His experance there was that there were two options, sell drugs or join the military. There are a few landscaping and maid jobs available, but they don't pay much, and are hard to get.
I know that if I had grown up in that sort of a stituation I wouldn't even think of earning a "honest" wage.
As far as what to do about the problem, I'd have to say there is no single solution. Clearly a better system of welfare might decrease the problem, but again, if you have the choice of barely making it off the governement, or making a thousand in a day selling crack, there isn't much of a choice at all. Clearly lighting the laws about drug use would help. I think we've been trying to punish the end users long enough that we should relize that its not working.
On the supply side, we will never be able to win. Traffic is an outstanding look at the drug problem, and considers pretty much all aspects of the trade, from the Mexican cartels to the honor role highschool student users, to the US drug policy. Its main point is that there is no way to win the war on drugs. In a situtation like that, legalizing drugs would both eliminate the massive amount of profit that can be made off them and allow for better controls. Not everything mind you, there are plenty of things out there that are simply too dangerous to allow to be sold, but legalizing pot, maybe some of the lighter "hard" drugs, like speed, blow, maybe X, would allow the governement to keep better tabs on who is geting ahold of what. It won't be perfect, but better than it is now...in high school i could have gotten just about any drug easier than alcohol or cigarettes.
And as for the drugs that are not realisticaly legalizable, stop punishing the users with jail time, and start helping them. Rehab, and counciling would work far better for many users than hard jail time.
Harsher punishments simply won't work in my opinion. I think its been fairly well documented that states with a death penalty do not see a dramtic drop in capital offenses.
Sounds fair
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very sick this is
Sounds fair
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very sick this is <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You come into America illegally you are already breaking the law and liable for punishment in my eyes.
You come into America illegally and start harming productive members of our society we kill you. Perfectly fair.
If you ask me death is too kind a punishment but the media tends to blow anything with the word "torture" in it all out of proportion. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Capital offenses will warrant death. Simple as that. (Enough with this eye for an eye and "I'd rather let a murderer walk free than an innocent person die", guess what? INNOCENT PEOPLE OUTNUMBER MURDERERS BY OVER 1 MILLION TO ONE. Let's have a martyr!)
Slightly less than capital offenses (rape, assault, attempted murder, armed robbery) will warrant a slave-like existence in a hellhole that's poorly maintained (prison, but only 3 meals a day, square room with bars, and NO FORMS OF ELECTRONICAL ENTERTAINMENT).
Drug pushing, buying and stealing will result in a heavy fine, where you can't get a loan, and an inability to pay will result in the Federal government declaring you bankrupt (hard to live without a credit card or a loan on a car or house) and get your driver's liscence taken away.
Misdemeanors will get a one time warning, then community service, then a heavy fine (which your legal guardians must pay, if you're still with them).
Just toughen the sentences and make sure you can't leech off the prison system. And make sure you can enforce said sentences (bankruptcy is a great way, if you can enforce Federal law through enterprise corporations).
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Seriously though, stiffer penalties do not lead to less crime, it leads to more people in jail. Drug penalties have been strengthened consistantly since the 60s. Has the drug problem been solved, or even improved? Not where I live. Where I live its easier than ever to get them. Since its illegal, a ton of money can be made off it, greed is probably on of the biggest motivations for violence. Add in the fact that the police use violence regularly (not that there really is another way) in these cases, you actualy get a rise in violent crime from the stiffened drug laws.
Futhermore its pretty well proven that the death penalty has no deterent effect. <a href='http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167' target='_blank'>http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167</a> If the harshest law in our land (one incidently that much of the rest of the "developed" world looks on as barbaric and moraly inexcusable) fails to stop crime, I think its fairly obivous that making the penalties harsher will not solve anything. If anything it will increase violence against cops. If I have the chocie between death, or even a slave-like exsistance or bankrupcy, and shooting some poor policeman trying to do his job, that poor cop ain't going home to his family tonight....too bad, but at least I will.
And if the cops are facing more violence, they will in turn become more violent towards the population to protect themselves. And then the criminals will become more violent in turn, protecting their lives. Its an cycel that will end with a tank on every street and troops on every corner with assault rifles, willing to shoot anyone that gives them a bad look. If a bullet comes after that look often enough, who cares if a couple innocents die? Its better than your life.....
No, that's retarded. Not all people are retarded like that, you kill a person, and it's going to be hell to get away with it. You're going to get caught and convicted, and once you die (and die you shall), you'll know you've paid the price for your crime.
It really is hard to commit murder and get away with it. Very, very hard.
Most people don't think the way you do. And capital punishment isn't going to be loosened to incorporate crimes such as petty theft, this isn't Hammurabi's system. But if you really think that effectively toughening the legal and penitentiary system (would you like to live for seven years without making a single loan or using a single credit card?), crime WILL go down.
Oh, and legalize all drugs, and repeal medicare. You trash your life? Hahah, you get to DIE.
Edit:
By the way...your reasoning is absolutely unreal. The vast majority of people will not shoot and kill a police officer to get out of going to jail. Take a look at all those inmates in jails already.
I'm not sugesting to repeal all laws, I'm saying look at the laws that are creating more violence than they are protecting america, and either repeal or modify them. In my opinion these are the drugs laws...see my very first post in this thread for a more detialed account. Couple that with a program to address poverty in our country better, and we might start seeing more resonable prision populations
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It really is hard to commit murder and get away with it. Very, very hard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In some places. Not so much in others. The more violent crime there is in a given area the more likely you are to be able to get away with killing a cop, or anybody for that matter. In upper middle class white suburbia, no probably not. In the extermly poverty ridden, crime ladden "projects" and "ghettos" and "hoods" of the major cities, people are killed everyday, and there is little the cops can honestly do about it. And this type of crime is spreading.
I'm origonaly from Madison,WI...in a middle class white suburban neighborhood. A couple of summers ago two men were shot a few weeks apart, one on the south side playing basketball in the park where I sometimes went sledding, the other behind the Mcdonalds that is probably, oh six seven blocks from where I live. In both these situtations not only was nobody caught, they never even got a description of the shooters. Why? Not because there wasn't anyobody there to see, there where plenty, they both happened in the middle of the day. But nobody would talk. Why? Becasue if they did some other gang member would come and it would be them that got shot, probably a good chunk of their family too, so no eyewitnesses. They were using unresgistered handguns, so you can't trace that. DNA evidence and such is only useful if you have a suspect to match it to. And if the car was stolen (I remeber reading that at least one of them was) tracing it's more or less useless. So pretty much the only way to stop it is to have a cop that is right there when it happens. And if you already going to be killing a man, and almost certinaly get away with it, what the hell is stoping you from shooting that cop who is going to either put you in jail for the rest of your life, or have you executed? Both these murders occured because of drugs.
And its not just two isolated incidents. While I was back home this winter break, somebody got stabbed two blocks from where I worked over the sumer, because of some trivial amount of cocaine supposedly, and that same day they found somebody shot to death, in an alleyway across the street from where I went to highschool. The shots weren't reported, even though he obviously died there and it is a residential area...somebody had to come across his body the next day. And a few months before that my mom called me very upset, because she was worried about the neighborhood that we live in is becoming usafe, because some gang memeber was found dead in a park a few blocks from our house. It could be a lot worse, I don't think its an unsafe place, but the dierection its heading is towards worse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->most people don't think the way you do. And capital punishment isn't going to be loosened to incorporate crimes such as petty theft, this isn't Hammurabi's system. But if you really think that effectively toughening the legal and penitentiary system (would you like to live for seven years without making a single loan or using a single credit card?), crime WILL go down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off...I didn't think that is what you ment. I used the example of capital punishment to show that stiff punishments do not deter crime.
Secondly you system will most certainly lead to more crime. I know for a fact that I could not make a legitament living if I was not allowed to have a credit card or make a loan for seven years. Its simply added to a problem that already exisists. Its very hard for a ex-felon, especialy one that did something like steal or sell drugs, to get a good job, a job that can be lived off of, becasue of the stigma of their crimes in society. Alright fine maybe they should be looked down at for their actions, but even if their time convinced them to go straight, now they can't. So its back to crime, and all of a sudden repeat offenders seem like majority of all criminals.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The vast majority of people will not shoot and kill a police officer to get out of going to jail.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't take the majority, it only takes a few hardened criminals to get to there. Look at New York. There is quite a bit of gang activity, and violence towards cops in some areas. All of a sudden you get the situtation where a honest man is reaching for his wallet to show the cops his ID (because he doesn't speak english well, having jsut emigrated from somewhere in Africa) and gets shot 40-some-odd-times. Most people hear that story and start screaming police brutality. I look at it, and ask, why did they feel that his life was worth the chance he was pulling a gun on them? Becasue its happened enough times before that it doesn't matter to them anymore that he might not be.
And if you are a criminal, and cops are gunning down honest people in your community, I'd feel pretty nervious about running into the cops. And if I do run into them, their proably going to outnumber me, so I better pull my gun first, and try and get a couple of them down before their ready for it.....better than dieing. Better than getting a life sentence in some people's minds. Definatly better than being bankrupted for an excessive period of time, <i>after</i> having been placed into a "Hellhole" to live a "slave-like" exisistance.
If a single adult male commits a crime, and say he gets a year in prison.
Why is it that a married mother of two who commits the same crime, only get probation? Is that fairness under the eyes of justice?
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I think you have a huge violence problem in the US. From what I know it would be a very bad thing to have strict law enforcement because it makes breaking laws harder (k this may sound dumb but let me talk further). If there is 100% strict following of law enforced by strict police then whoever makes the law has total control. The world is not ruled by laws, its ruled by the people who make them
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal. - Martin Luther King<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Violence only begets more violence if you allow them to. For example, if you did the crime, and you didn't pay for it, and we declare you bankrupt, you've got two choices.
Work two minimum wage jobs and cut down on all frivolous spending.
Turn to crime with virtually no assets whatsoever.
Sure, you could join a gang and they'd supply you with weapons and money, but then you're tied down to them. Not many people will make that choice. Most people will just not do the damn crime.
But here's the thing: if you do that, you'll be a criminal your entire life. Don't do the damn crime in the first place. Not all criminal violence is carried out against the police and law abiding citizens, we've got the fair share of gang "turf wars" where people allegedly like yourself will have to fight it out for fear being killed by their own gang. Cowardice begets even more cowardice.
In any other case, I also am in favor of loosening gun control laws. Citizens on the beat with handguns (law abiding ones) will severely deter crime. There are enough good people in any society.
Bankrupcy wouldn't be declared on misdemeanors, in any case. You'd be given a fine, and if you refuse to pay, the government will seize your assets, but not declare bankruptcy.
I should also mention that this system would only be used if drugs were illegal. I would legalize every type of drug imaginable and repeal all government welfare programs. Gangs lose their means of support (besides a protection racket, but that's minor compared to drugs) and unorganized crime is easy to crack down upon. With this sort of system, it'd work. Petty theft? Hah, rob a damn convenience store and somebody will ID you, and you won't have your cronies to back you up.
Legalizing drugs is the only thing in your entire post that makes sense. Cutting out the profit for the pushers, and suppliers and stop imprisoning users, and yes there would be less crime.
Lets look at your other claims though. First, the practicality of working two minimum wage jobs. If you can manage to work 80 hours a week at minimum wage your yearly income (before taxes) will be 21,424. If you have a family to support this is still considered to be below the poverty line. Or ou could go back to crime and make enough to feed your family.
If you repeal welfare the more than 5 million individuals and families that need welfare to eat will probably end up turning to crime. If thier on welfare, theres a good chance that they are having problems, or can't, find a job. Without this welfare they will need to steal to eat, let alone have cloths or a place to live.
If gun controls are loosened, and you have these "law abiding citizens" walking around with them, you won't see a drop in crime. Why? because if one of these citizens sees a crime in progress, whips out their piece and uses it they have just broken the law. Not to mention the inheirent problems with allowing vigilate activity.
And as far as the thing about petty crime, thats really foolish. You might get caught while your holding the place up, or maybe the shopkeep will blow you away with the shotgun behind the desk, but unless you commiting this act in your own neighborhood, without a mask, the chances of getting IDed after you get away aren't that great.
Thats not the bad part though, the bad part is that every criminal out there now knows that "law abiding" citizens may have guns. Are they going to stop their life of crime because of this? Probably not. Instead, they will simply start shooting people more readily. Reach for your walet too fast when you're getting mugged? Your dead. Come running down the ally to see whats going on? You're dead.
See, all you've done is to make it nessesary for the criminals to kill people more often. Its like river boats in vietnam. There probably isn't a vietnam vet alive that served on one of those things and didn't blow away a boat full of unarmed civies. Why? Because if they weren't that jumpy then they'd be dead.
Oddly enough, I agree with some of the logic in this statement. Poverty is a cause of much crime in America, and dealing with poverty will certainly decrease the levels of crime, particularly in larger urban areas.
However, you should pay for crime, which means that if you kill, you shall be killed. That's simple logic. Anyone convicted for first degree murder should be executed within a month of being sentenced. Second degree murder should be where more "flexible sentencing" should be an option, but not the norm. First and second degree murder require that the criminal killed a person with intent. Negligence certainly doesn't require the death sentence, but intent to kill does. Plain, simple logic. I don't see the point in my paycheck supporting serial killers serving 5 life sentences.
As pointed out earlier, a highly successful idea for a prison is one in which prisoners work during their sentence for wages. By providing them with a means to work, the prison system will use the prisoners themselves as a means of "reform." None of this therapy crap, working and saving wages during one's sentence means that they have a "money buffer" for when they are released, making a life of crime less likely. Things like cable TV, porn subscriptions, magazines, etc, should be privileges paid for by the individual prisoner, not rights that they receive upon being sentenced.
Making prisons sparser, heavier handed places, with hard laws keeping them from becoming broods of more crime and corruption will also help tremendously. Our return rate for prisons in America for all crimes will drop like a rock, guaranteed.
And quickly, on the subject of drug crimes, the <i>deciminalization</i> of marijuana and some other lesser drugs would be a great money saver.
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I understand where you're coming from with that, but I can't condone the executing of an innocent person. Lets face it, our justice system isn't infallible and has executed innocent people in the past, they undoubtedly will do it again.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well look back in the day when people used swords as the main weapon .... everyone carried swords... and for the most part things worked out pretty good... so why not let everyone have a gun? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by "everyone" you mean "non-peasents" and by "worked out pretty good" you mean "those who had the wepons opressed those who didn't, and there was rampant murder, pillaging, and rape" then you would be correct.
I'm all for people being able to own guns, I just don't see why they need to be allowed to carry them on the street. It the eyes of a criminal it turns everybody into a threat to their life. It will be like natural selection, only the criminals who learn to shoot first and ask questions later will live and prosper.