<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too bad the war on terror dosen't cover our own government
Electronic ID cards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> National ID cards will not happen, but the strengthening the requirements to get a state's drivers license is happening as it should.
Then again, there is nothing wrong with requiring citizens to have some form of identification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointing the finger at 3 Rogue states...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pointing the finger? You mean telling it how it is? You have these 3 "rougue" nations and many more. Its just these have the ability to cause more trouble than is acceptable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refunding draft boards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Refunding? You mean the process of actually filling vacancies on local draft boards? The process that was started before Bush even took office for his first term? Get something real to complain about for once...
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings!
NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism.
Both are rogue nations that should be dealt with. Diplomatically if possible, forcefully if necessary. These nations only recognize our ideas of freedom and liberty as weaknesses they can take advantage of. Because both nations have sponsored or committed terrorrism in the past, thinking that neither could not threaten the world is very naive.
Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Feb 13 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Feb 13 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I certainly don't! Let's do all we can to prevent that. Oh wait too late. Okay, who here wants to back desperate, powerlusting dictators in failing states with nukes on their hands into corners from where the only escape seems to be to use those weapons? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Strong foreign policy on the West's behalf will back him into a corner. But what's NK's going to do with their leverage? Use it to make demands of us.
NK is not just going to go away if we shut our eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 13 2005, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 13 2005, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Feb 13 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Feb 13 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I certainly don't! Let's do all we can to prevent that. Oh wait too late. Okay, who here wants to back desperate, powerlusting dictators in failing states with nukes on their hands into corners from where the only escape seems to be to use those weapons? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Strong foreign policy on the West's behalf will back him into a corner. But what's NK's going to do with their leverage? Use it to make demands of us.
NK is not just going to go away if we shut our eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if we shut our eyes while the US knocked it off the map with a couple nukes it would
I do believe that the general population will welcome any liberators that would care to relieve them of the burden of the North Korean government. But I wonder whether this can be achieved without wholesale destruction. How exactly would we go about preventing the madmen ruling the country from reducing most of east asia to a smoldering crater?
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh? <a href='http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3A+nationalism' target='_blank'>http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3A+nationalism</a>
A sense of national consciousness that exalts one nation above all others; one of the most divisive and destructive forces in history.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Iran has missiles, so what? If they do shoot conventional missiles <i>anywhere</i> they will be invaded/bombed (or am I missing something, do they have nukes now too?).
NK on the other hand, does (supposedly) have nukes but people are saying they do NOT have a delivery system, and you are saying they do. I'm confused, can you provide a source?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do people not remember the missile tests that NK shot over Japan? Or the big news stories speculating that NK's latest missile could probably reach US soil ( at least Alaska, cannot remember if West coast is reachable )? NK is one of the world's most infamous nations selling missile technology. They do have a delivery system that can at least reach many Asian nations.
As to your link for nationalism, maybe choose a source that is not filled with opinion.
Oops, I found one. So difficult: <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalism</a>
If there is anything wrong with believing in one's nation over others, then I have no desire to be right.
Iran does have missiles and can probably deliver a nuclear device a decent distance ( probably still less than NK though ). They also have links to terrorrism ( as I stated ). Now, those two facts and the idea of Iran being having nuclear weapons is not something I usually prefer to mix together.
Kittycat... Take such gargabe somewhere else. If taking out dictators and freeing an entire nation is equitable to targeting ( this implies intent and purpose and is an extremely important but often overlooked difference ) civilians en masse, then ... oh bugger me. This is pointless. Its impossible to argue against comments as intellectually devoid as that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you want to say that the US do not sponsor terrorism or had never? (Yes I do know that NK is ruled by a dictator and that someone should free the country. But this will not happen anytime soon because they do not have large oil deposits)
ok, as was mentioned previously why does kim state that he has weapons to a rabidly antiproliferation west? Could it be that the extrenal security situation of his nation is in the worst shape in the 50 years of its existance?
On the one hand he is facing a hostile internal population which is starving, at least reportedly, on the other hand he faces an american administration which has set his nation as a part of the axis of evil. If I were incharge both of those would scare me. prior to now teh rumnors and mystery surounding the North Korean weapons programs had kept every one on their toes. <a href='http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/nkorea/bm98.html' target='_blank'>For example the missle overflight of japan in 1998 </a>
now iraq has proved that simply pretending to have weapons will get you invaded, kim needs to back up his claims. or his extrnal situation gets worse
2nd world war was more like "war of the worlds" and it is generally accepted that Nazis = evil. If we look at modern day conflicts its not that easy to paint everything black and white. That is why "terrorist" is a relative thing. It may be "freedom fighter" or "armed resistance" from another view
<!--QuoteBegin-kittycat+Feb 14 2005, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kittycat @ Feb 14 2005, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2nd world war was more like "war of the worlds" and it is generally accepted that Nazis = evil. If we look at modern day conflicts its not that easy to paint everything black and white.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nor was it back then. Calling every member of the NSDAP evil is an oversimplification of titanic proportions. There were all sorts of Nazis, from the "Arians are destined to rule the world, and everybody else is a pestilence that must be wiped from the surface of the earth"-kind to the "meh, if this is what it takes to keep me and my family alive through this, then so be it"-kind. Far from all germans were members of the NSDAP, too. Yet the bombs that fell killed indiscriminately. They killed NSDAP members, good and bad, just as they killed people in no way affilliated with the party.
WW2 was not black and white.
And still I do not call those that bombed my country terrorists. In fact, I call them liberators, for liberators they were, even if they spread more destruction that what I, in hindsight, would deem necessary. Tell me, where are YOU from?
Oh, and before we slip too far off-topic:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US bombed Yugoslavia in 1999<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again: Care to elaborate?
I don't think NK will actually use their nuclear weapons. Even Kim Il Yong should know that this would end in a war like whole world against NK.
It's a bit ironically though, that the worlds biggest nuclear power tries to prevent the spreading of nuclear weapons - with the argument, others couldn't deal with nuclear weapons. Erm, well... who suggested to use small a-bombs against iraq?
Don't get me wrong, I'm against nuclear weapons in NK. But I'm also against a-weapons in the USA and elsewhere.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Feb 14 2005, 11:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Feb 14 2005, 11:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So? The U.S. bombed Germany in 1945. I am a native of that country, and you don't see me crying "terrorists," do you? Care to elaborate? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If i had relatives who lived in Dresden i sure as hell would
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Feb 15 2005, 02:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Feb 15 2005, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As to your link for nationalism, maybe choose a source that is not filled with opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok how about the Webster dictionary then? They are a standard of sorts are they not?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->loyalty and devotion to a nation; <b><i>especially</i></b> : a sense of national consciousness <b>exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've forgot what this thread is about now. Oh yeah, NK, yeah.. Wouldn't bet on them doing anything anytime soon unless Kim Jong Ill has a deathwish.
<!--QuoteBegin-othell+Feb 13 2005, 01:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Feb 13 2005, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Too bad the war on terror dosen't cover our own government
Electronic ID cards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> National ID cards will not happen, but the strengthening the requirements to get a state's drivers license is happening as it should.
Then again, there is nothing wrong with requiring citizens to have some form of identification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointing the finger at 3 Rogue states...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pointing the finger? You mean telling it how it is? You have these 3 "rougue" nations and many more. Its just these have the ability to cause more trouble than is acceptable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refunding draft boards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Refunding? You mean the process of actually filling vacancies on local draft boards? The process that was started before Bush even took office for his first term? Get something real to complain about for once...
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings!
NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism.
Both are rogue nations that should be dealt with. Diplomatically if possible, forcefully if necessary. These nations only recognize our ideas of freedom and liberty as weaknesses they can take advantage of. Because both nations have sponsored or committed terrorrism in the past, thinking that neither could not threaten the world is very naive.
Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edited out, decided not to dignify such ignorance with a worthwhile response
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 04:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edited out, decided not to dignify such ignorance with a worthwhile response <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't find this over whelming ignorance you speak of...although I looked twice.
One can't help but wonder where someone such as yourself acquires such a vast amount of knowledge that perfectly intelligible posts can simply be shrugged off as ignorant?
Do you think Iran and NK are not threats to the global community?
Do you think we should ignore Iran and NK and let them do as they please?
Do you think we should cave into their demands, "negotiate" with them, appease them as was done with Hitler?
It all comes from the "Our way or the highway" mentality. Instead of working through diplomacy we are viewed as a tyrant to the world. They generate this opinion because of our imperialism. If rogue states are a threat to the world community, we are alone to blame. If the US truly practiced democracy we wouldn't be forcing it down anyones throat. All I ask for is one single good reason why we are picking off third world nations one at a time, sacrificing our freedoms for holographic security, and REBUILDING the nation we blow up, instead of feeding our own people.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 05:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It all comes from the "Our way or the highway" mentality. Instead of working through diplomacy we are viewed as a tyrant to the world. They generate this opinion because of our imperialism. If rogue states are a threat to the world community, we are alone to blame. If the US truly practiced democracy we wouldn't be forcing it down anyones throat. All I ask for is one single good reason why we are picking off third world nations one at a time, sacrificing our freedoms for holographic security, and REBUILDING the nation we blow up, instead of feeding our own people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You see the thing is diplomacy tends not to work so well with nations like Iran, NK, and the former Iraq. There may be some sliver of hope for a solution with Iran, and I believe we are leaving the negotiation to the Europeans, which may or may not be a good thing. But I fear negotiations with NK will be futile at best. They have already demonstrated their erraticness and unwillingness to negotiate with the nations around them, what makes you think things will go better for us?
You see it as forcing it down their throats, I see it as liberating them from oppression, I doubt anything can change our viewpoints. Although I do have the very successful elections in both Afghanistan and Iraq to back me up...
Holographic security? Have we had a terrorist attack since 9/11? Do you think they haven’t been trying? I think our security is quite tangible.
Would you prefer we don't rebuild those countries? I don't think the populous would view democracy so well if we just blew them up and left. As for feeding our own people, name me a large country that can feed every single one of it's citizens to satisfaction? We are a capitalistic society and what you want seems more like socialism...which is no where on the distant horizon.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 14 2005, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 14 2005, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You see it as forcing it down their throats, I see it as liberating them from oppression, I doubt anything can change our viewpoints. Although I do have the very successful elections in both Afghanistan and Iraq to back me up... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorta like how Hitler liberated the Jews from the agony that is life, eh
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 12:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [...] Have we had a terrorist attack since 9/11? Do you think they haven’t been trying? I think our security is quite tangible. [...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11? The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorta like how Hitler liberated the Jews from the agony that is life, eh <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except instead of killing them by the millions we give them basic human freedoms we take for granted....so I can see the connection... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11? The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s was the WTC bombing in 1993, along with numerous embassy bombings. There was also the Oklahoma City bombing, although that was a domestic terrorist you haven’t seen any "copy cat" attacks following 9/11 now have you?
Hey you cut off the head of the dragon its limbs will have a hard time hitting you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 14 2005, 05:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 14 2005, 05:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But I fear negotiations with NK will be futile at best. They have already demonstrated their erraticness and unwillingness to negotiate with the nations around them, what makes you think things will go better for us? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't the USA already try to give them handouts in exchange for halting nuclear development? IIRC, they took it and went ahead anyway.
@reasa: I know, but 9/11 was a very special and "big" attack that won't happen every few month. I don't think the world is safer nowadays. Let's see what happens in the next years.
Hehe, i think we should stop this discussion and get back to NK. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 14 2005, 06:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 14 2005, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Didn't the USA already try to give them handouts in exchange for halting nuclear development? IIRC, they took it and went ahead anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think you might be referring to this <a href='http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/06/24/nkorea.talks/' target='_blank'>http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/...4/nkorea.talks/</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 10:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 10:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=CommunistWithAGun,Feb 14 2005, 05:11 PM] Holographic security? Have we had a terrorist attack since 9/11? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure you have, almost every day now. Why take a trip to the states when you can pick off a humvee of soldiers outside your house?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are a capitalistic society and what you want seems more like socialism...which is nowhere on the distant horizon.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Social security, minimum wages, social welfare, etc. Are these not socialist values?
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 14 2005, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 14 2005, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Feb 14 2005, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Feb 14 2005, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorta like how Hitler liberated the Jews from the agony that is life, eh <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except instead of killing them by the millions we give them basic human freedoms we take for granted....so I can see the connection... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11? The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq. What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s was the WTC bombing in 1993, along with numerous embassy bombings. There was also the Oklahoma City bombing, although that was a domestic terrorist you haven’t seen any "copy cat" attacks following 9/11 now have you?
Hey you cut off the head of the dragon its limbs will have a hard time hitting you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. You are not liberating them. You are merely changing who they are opressed by.
Comments
Electronic ID cards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
National ID cards will not happen, but the strengthening the requirements to get a state's drivers license is happening as it should.
Then again, there is nothing wrong with requiring citizens to have some form of identification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointing the finger at 3 Rogue states...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pointing the finger? You mean telling it how it is? You have these 3 "rougue" nations and many more. Its just these have the ability to cause more trouble than is acceptable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refunding draft boards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Refunding? You mean the process of actually filling vacancies on local draft boards? The process that was started before Bush even took office for his first term? Get something real to complain about for once...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Patriot acts...
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings!
NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism.
Both are rogue nations that should be dealt with. Diplomatically if possible, forcefully if necessary. These nations only recognize our ideas of freedom and liberty as weaknesses they can take advantage of. Because both nations have sponsored or committed terrorrism in the past, thinking that neither could not threaten the world is very naive.
Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not.
Strong foreign policy on the West's behalf will back him into a corner. But what's NK's going to do with their leverage? Use it to make demands of us.
NK is not just going to go away if we shut our eyes.
Strong foreign policy on the West's behalf will back him into a corner. But what's NK's going to do with their leverage? Use it to make demands of us.
NK is not just going to go away if we shut our eyes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if we shut our eyes while the US knocked it off the map with a couple nukes it would
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? <a href='http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3A+nationalism' target='_blank'>http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3A+nationalism</a>
A sense of national consciousness that exalts one nation above all others; one of the most divisive and destructive forces in history.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So Iran has missiles, so what? If they do shoot conventional missiles <i>anywhere</i> they will be invaded/bombed (or am I missing something, do they have nukes now too?).
NK on the other hand, does (supposedly) have nukes but people are saying they do NOT have a delivery system, and you are saying they do. I'm confused, can you provide a source?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
USA = terrorist threat
As to your link for nationalism, maybe choose a source that is not filled with opinion.
Oops, I found one. So difficult: <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalism' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nationalism</a>
If there is anything wrong with believing in one's nation over others, then I have no desire to be right.
Iran does have missiles and can probably deliver a nuclear device a decent distance ( probably still less than NK though ). They also have links to terrorrism ( as I stated ). Now, those two facts and the idea of Iran being having nuclear weapons is not something I usually prefer to mix together.
Kittycat... Take such gargabe somewhere else. If taking out dictators and freeing an entire nation is equitable to targeting ( this implies intent and purpose and is an extremely important but often overlooked difference ) civilians en masse, then ... oh bugger me. This is pointless. Its impossible to argue against comments as intellectually devoid as that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you want to say that the US do not sponsor terrorism or had never? (Yes I do know that NK is ruled by a dictator and that someone should free the country. But this will not happen anytime soon because they do not have large oil deposits)
theres Nicoruagua, Panama, Cuba, Soviet Afghanistan and some more ones that i don't know off the top of my head.
On the one hand he is facing a hostile internal population which is starving, at least reportedly, on the other hand he faces an american administration which has set his nation as a part of the axis of evil. If I were incharge both of those would scare me. prior to now teh rumnors and mystery surounding the North Korean weapons programs had kept every one on their toes. <a href='http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/nkorea/bm98.html' target='_blank'>For example the missle overflight of japan in 1998 </a>
now iraq has proved that simply pretending to have weapons will get you invaded, kim needs to back up his claims. or his extrnal situation gets worse
Nor was it back then. Calling every member of the NSDAP evil is an oversimplification of titanic proportions. There were all sorts of Nazis, from the "Arians are destined to rule the world, and everybody else is a pestilence that must be wiped from the surface of the earth"-kind to the "meh, if this is what it takes to keep me and my family alive through this, then so be it"-kind.
Far from all germans were members of the NSDAP, too. Yet the bombs that fell killed indiscriminately. They killed NSDAP members, good and bad, just as they killed people in no way affilliated with the party.
WW2 was not black and white.
And still I do not call those that bombed my country terrorists. In fact, I call them liberators, for liberators they were, even if they spread more destruction that what I, in hindsight, would deem necessary.
Tell me, where are YOU from?
Oh, and before we slip too far off-topic:<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->US bombed Yugoslavia in 1999<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again: Care to elaborate?
It's a bit ironically though, that the worlds biggest nuclear power tries to prevent the spreading of nuclear weapons - with the argument, others couldn't deal with nuclear weapons.
Erm, well... who suggested to use small a-bombs against iraq?
Don't get me wrong, I'm against nuclear weapons in NK. But I'm also against a-weapons in the USA and elsewhere.
If i had relatives who lived in Dresden i sure as hell would
Ok how about the Webster dictionary then? They are a standard of sorts are they not?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->loyalty and devotion to a nation; <b><i>especially</i></b> : a sense of national consciousness <b>exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've forgot what this thread is about now. Oh yeah, NK, yeah.. Wouldn't bet on them doing anything anytime soon unless Kim Jong Ill has a deathwish.
Electronic ID cards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
National ID cards will not happen, but the strengthening the requirements to get a state's drivers license is happening as it should.
Then again, there is nothing wrong with requiring citizens to have some form of identification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointing the finger at 3 Rogue states...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Pointing the finger? You mean telling it how it is? You have these 3 "rougue" nations and many more. Its just these have the ability to cause more trouble than is acceptable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Refunding draft boards...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Refunding? You mean the process of actually filling vacancies on local draft boards? The process that was started before Bush even took office for his first term? Get something real to complain about for once...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Patriot acts...
Rising mindless nationalism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As compared to mindless rants?
How dare people have feel a sense of pride in their nation! Americans are not allowed such feelings!
NK is a threat. Iran is a threat. NK has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism. Iran has committed or sponsored acts of terrorrism.
Both are rogue nations that should be dealt with. Diplomatically if possible, forcefully if necessary. These nations only recognize our ideas of freedom and liberty as weaknesses they can take advantage of. Because both nations have sponsored or committed terrorrism in the past, thinking that neither could not threaten the world is very naive.
Right now Iran does not have a delivery system that can reach any of us Western nations, but they do have a missiles that I believe are based on NK designs and can reach quite a difference ( perhaps Israel ). I beleive Iran has even worked on, perhaps completed a type of cruise missile.
NK on the other hand has a pretty good delivery system. They do not have any ICBM's at this time, but they do have a missile that could possibly reach at least Alaska and perhaps our pacific coast ( and if they do not now, they will shortly ). At the very least NK can reach quite a few very important Asian nations. SK and Japan are easy targets for NK even for conventional weapons. Attacking Japan could cause severe issues for the rest of the world. NK is a global issue regardless if they can attack our country or not. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
edited out, decided not to dignify such ignorance with a worthwhile response
I can't find this over whelming ignorance you speak of...although I looked twice.
One can't help but wonder where someone such as yourself acquires such a vast amount of knowledge that perfectly intelligible posts can simply be shrugged off as ignorant?
Do you think Iran and NK are not threats to the global community?
Do you think we should ignore Iran and NK and let them do as they please?
Do you think we should cave into their demands, "negotiate" with them, appease them as was done with Hitler?
Please enlighten us O wise one.
You see the thing is diplomacy tends not to work so well with nations like Iran, NK, and the former Iraq. There may be some sliver of hope for a solution with Iran, and I believe we are leaving the negotiation to the Europeans, which may or may not be a good thing. But I fear negotiations with NK will be futile at best. They have already demonstrated their erraticness and unwillingness to negotiate with the nations around them, what makes you think things will go better for us?
You see it as forcing it down their throats, I see it as liberating them from oppression, I doubt anything can change our viewpoints. Although I do have the very successful elections in both Afghanistan and Iraq to back me up...
Holographic security? Have we had a terrorist attack since 9/11? Do you think they haven’t been trying? I think our security is quite tangible.
Would you prefer we don't rebuild those countries? I don't think the populous would view democracy so well if we just blew them up and left.
As for feeding our own people, name me a large country that can feed every single one of it's citizens to satisfaction? We are a capitalistic society and what you want seems more like socialism...which is no where on the distant horizon.
You see it as forcing it down their throats, I see it as liberating them from oppression, I doubt anything can change our viewpoints. Although I do have the very successful elections in both Afghanistan and Iraq to back me up...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorta like how Hitler liberated the Jews from the agony that is life, eh
So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11?
The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.
Except instead of killing them by the millions we give them basic human freedoms we take for granted....so I can see the connection... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11?
The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s was the WTC bombing in 1993, along with numerous embassy bombings.
There was also the Oklahoma City bombing, although that was a domestic terrorist you haven’t seen any "copy cat" attacks following 9/11 now have you?
Hey you cut off the head of the dragon its limbs will have a hard time hitting you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Didn't the USA already try to give them handouts in exchange for halting nuclear development? IIRC, they took it and went ahead anyway.
Let's see what happens in the next years.
Hehe, i think we should stop this discussion and get back to NK. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think you might be referring to this <a href='http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/06/24/nkorea.talks/' target='_blank'>http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/...4/nkorea.talks/</a>
Naturally it didn't work out...
Holographic security? Have we had a terrorist attack since 9/11? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure you have, almost every day now. Why take a trip to the states when you can pick off a humvee of soldiers outside your house?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are a capitalistic society and what you want seems more like socialism...which is nowhere on the distant horizon.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Social security, minimum wages, social welfare, etc. Are these not socialist values?
Except instead of killing them by the millions we give them basic human freedoms we take for granted....so I can see the connection... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I have to ask: Where there any serious terrorist attacks before 9/11?
The terrorists themselfs are still in business. Even though the USA attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
What I want to say is that the terror problem can't be solved by invading countries that *maybe* supported them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There’s was the WTC bombing in 1993, along with numerous embassy bombings.
There was also the Oklahoma City bombing, although that was a domestic terrorist you haven’t seen any "copy cat" attacks following 9/11 now have you?
Hey you cut off the head of the dragon its limbs will have a hard time hitting you. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You are not liberating them. You are merely changing who they are opressed by.