Ns Maps: What's Going On?

Albino · January 2005

I was going to post this into the beta6 feedback thread, but I figured that it deserved its own thread so here we go.

Zephor and I were talking about maps yesterday and I asked this question: Why has there not been a decent competitive map added to an official release since 2.0 when veil, origin, mineshaft and lost came in? While mineshaft was looked down upon by the competitive community it was actually a decent map to compete on so I'm going to count it.

Why would NS 2.0 go 4 for 4 on maps then all 3.0 releases go 1 for 4 (I'm taking metal and ayumi as .5 each because they're ok, but really not that great). Agora and altair really don't have any use in their current form.

I suggest the devs require some form of functionality in official maps. Perhaps all maps before being put into an official release are played on by CAL teams or teams from other leagues around the world. Zephor had asked to use ns_eon (beta6 map) for week 2 of preseason, but was turned down which left the map without the most thorough playtesting availible. I don't know what the rational was behind that. Maybe the devs wanted the map to be a surprise or something, but really, they totally missed the boat on that one.

What do you guys think on the current map situation?

Armageddon · January 2005

i generally don't like new maps because they take a long time to learn <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

And i hate maps like mineshaft, agora, nancy, and bast because some parts are so friggin dark that skulks make me pee in my pants when i walk to those areas.

DruBo · January 2005

I think it's not as big a deal as you're making it. Whether or not the team has added good competitive maps is debatable, but do you really need more? I count 7 now, <b>not</b> including your half-point metal and ayumi.

Plus, we have playtesters who were once part of the ill-fated "veterans" group. They're experienced competitive gamers. Just because the map isn't released externally for CAL review doesn't mean it's not looked at in that regard.

Zunni · January 2005

My suggestion if you would like to work with someone on this.. Speak with Tyr.. He's the guy that "handles" maps from a dev perspective.

As for specifics of maps, instead of blindly talking about maps that "suck" why not give some constructive criticism to the map creators. Make sure you provide specific examples etc so that the mapper can come up with a solution that addresses your issue.

So what I'm saying is put a little work into it and help make the maps better instead of just criticizing them....

Zephor · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrunkenBozo @ Jan 13 2005, 10:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I think it's not as big a deal as you're making it. Whether or not the team has added good competitive maps is debatable, but do you really need more? I count 7 now, <b>not</b> including your half-point metal and ayumi.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I count 7 good maps too but there are 8 weeks in a season which means we're stuck with one crappy map for 1 week. On top of that, some of the good maps aren't perfect either. Origin isn't being updated and nothing still has problems.

Albino · January 2005

I'm not necessarily saying that the maps are bad or poorly made. What I'm trying to say is that they are not fit for competitive play. Many of the maps that I don't consider very good for playing competitively on I enjoy pubbing on. Let me use Agora as an example. I enjoy pubbing on it, but playing on it for a scrim or a match would leave me ripping out my hair.

Perhaps I should have asked this question instead: Are there any finished or nearly finished maps that look good for competitive play?

Naxo · January 2005

Actually, some mappers don't really want to make "competition-complient" maps. Some of them are pure pubbers that like NS because of its atmosphere, and therefore make maps made to have a dark atmosphere, and creating fear-of-the-lurking-skulk. Giving advices to make their map better from a competition p-o-v doesn't interest them at all. There's no real problem with that, a lot of people enjoy pubbing in such dark atmospheric maps... the problem comes when clans are choosing such maps in scrims (most of the time to annoy the other clan) or when tournaments are forcing those maps.
Although, as someone said above, there are maps that should be considered as competitive, but are very "underrated", and most of the time scrims are about tanith, eclipse or veil.... while origin, nothing or even nancy can be perfectly valid choices.

GamezLord · January 2005

hmm look at this like this... CS has so many maps but scrims will allmost allways be de_dust2... and the competitive scene of the maps uses a few of the official maps.

Just say thanls that as someone said... 7 maps out of not so many ns maps are officially played in the competitve scene and that you don't need to add non official maps in order to have a decent competition.

KK ? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

KungFuDiscoMonkey · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Naxo @ Jan 13 2005, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually, some mappers don't really want to make "competition-complient" maps. Some of them are pure pubbers that like NS because of its atmosphere, and therefore make maps made to have a dark atmosphere, and creating fear-of-the-lurking-skulk. Giving advices to make their map better from a competition p-o-v doesn't interest them at all. There's no real problem with that, a lot of people enjoy pubbing in such dark atmospheric maps... the problem comes when clans are choosing such maps in scrims (most of the time to annoy the other clan) or when tournaments are forcing those maps.
Although, as someone said above, there are maps that should be considered as competitive, but are very "underrated", and most of the time scrims are about tanith, eclipse or veil.... while origin, nothing or even nancy can be perfectly valid choices.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Maybe because clanners are often too busy complaining about the map instead of taking some time to write up usefull feedback so that the mappers can improve their maps.

Confused · January 2005

i have actually contemplated getting my map playetested by cal teams. however, my reading was that there was no real interest. it seems every time i have logged into the cal-ns forums recently all i see is predictions of the imminet doom of competitive ns.

If there is interest i would be more than happy to get my map playtested / made fun of.

Albino · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GamezLord @ Jan 13 2005, 12:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> hmm look at this like this... CS has so many maps but scrims will allmost allways be de_dust2... and the competitive scene of the maps uses a few of the official maps.

Just say thanls that as someone said... 7 maps out of not so many ns maps are officially played in the competitve scene and that you don't need to add non official maps in order to have a decent competition.

KK ? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
With 8 weeks of matches, 13 if you include preseason and playoffs, yes more maps are needed.

If you want feedback start a thread on your map here and specifically state how you want us to respond and tell us what things can be or can't be changed. I'm sure you would be able to get something to work with from it.

KungFuDiscoMonkey · January 2005

I signed up for the CAL forums specificially so I could get feedback and I got a lot of over generalizations and few useful specifics. I don't see that it would be much more worthwhile to start a post here.

Naxo · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Jan 13 2005, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Maybe because clanners are often too busy complaining about the map instead of taking some time to write up usefull feedback so that the mappers can improve their maps.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You read me wrong I think. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
I'm not saying "olo clanners rocks but pubbers dont listen omg".
I'm saying this because I've seen this. It's not about how constructive the comments are, it's just that the mapper doesn't want to do a clanwar map. Some maps are just intended to be pure atmospheric and ambient maps, and one could say it provides the game with the alien spirit. Nothing wrong with that.

Special_K · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Jan 13 2005, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I signed up for the CAL forums specificially so I could get feedback and I got a lot of over generalizations and few useful specifics. I don't see that it would be much more worthwhile to start a post here.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I'm not sure the best way to get constructive feedback is to sign up on a forums and sit back and wait for it to roll in. There are plenty of people who can give you the kind of well-considered feedback you want, but you'll need to go looking for them. I'm sure Albino is more than willing to give you a few names as a starting point.

DruBo · January 2005

Ahh, KFDM, just start a post. The CAL forums don't have the level of flame vigilance we've got here. We'll squeeze some constructive criticism out of these guys eventually <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Zephor · January 2005

oops double post

Zephor · January 2005

CAL played ns_enceladus submitted by TheAdj and made by Sir Pepe. It was more of a trial test run of something I wanted to try out and it seemed to work. Pepe got a ton of feedback from the CAL forums because for once, they have to play the map and scrim the mapthroughout the week which made them very accustomed to the map.

Here is the thread I tried to squeeze some feedback from.
<a href='http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=38845' target='_blank'>http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=38845</a>

I think the enceladus run was a complete success. People gave feedback and sir pepe seemed pleased with the response he got from the threads and response that was posted. [These were pretty detailed response]

I really dont think making threads with links of your maps in the CAL forums are going to get too much response probably because most clans will be more inclined to play the CAL map of the week and they do not want a map that they need to playtest to go on their record which is why we've been trying to put a few of them into preseason.

My original intent was to get enceladus and eon into the preseason but eon was strangely denied to us because of the secrecy behind it for the beta6 release. If you guys are willing, I can probably fit 2 maps of custom maps for preseason each season. I can request some at the end of this season in this forum or something...

Grahf · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Jan 13 2005, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Naxo @ Jan 13 2005, 02:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually, some mappers don't really want to make "competition-complient" maps. Some of them are pure pubbers that like NS because of its atmosphere, and therefore make maps made to have a dark atmosphere, and creating fear-of-the-lurking-skulk. Giving advices to make their map better from a competition p-o-v doesn't interest them at all. There's no real problem with that, a lot of people enjoy pubbing in such dark atmospheric maps... the problem comes when clans are choosing such maps in scrims (most of the time to annoy the other clan) or when tournaments are forcing those maps.
Although, as someone said above, there are maps that should be considered as competitive, but are very "underrated", and most of the time scrims are about tanith, eclipse or veil.... while origin, nothing or even nancy can be perfectly valid choices. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Maybe because clanners are often too busy complaining about the map instead of taking some time to write up usefull feedback so that the mappers can improve their maps.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Ask and you shall receive...

KungFuDiscoMonkey · January 2005

Actually, I responded to two posts that were already talking about Altair after it was made official and people were quicker to say the map sucked than give me anything specific to work with.

BigD · January 2005

I think it would be a good idea for more competitive people to pay attention to the mapping forum. Perhaps write up some good very descriptive elements of good map design from your point of view. Many mappers won't come to <i>you,</i> but if you come to them they'll likely listen. At least they might have you in mind during construction. For example, race-car drivers usually have a lot of input in the design of the cars they race. They don't wait for the car to be released, and then tell the engineers to change it. (On the other hand, Enzo Ferrari used to race himself before he started designing cars! If you get my drift!) It's not easy to just rearrange an entire map after it has been built.

There is one post to do with competitive mapping stickied (<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70657' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=70657</a>) and it is in my opinion very thought out and informative (though a tad confusing initially). But I understand it now, and it makes alot of sense at least. More of this kind of input from you guys would be great! Preview screenshots of works in progress and tell us how you think it'll play. Where most mappers would say "lighting is a bit green, but the architecture is very nice" (the kind of input most mappers get from each other) you might say "that corner is a bit bright and that architecture doesn't look to fade friendly".

Remember, alot of the new maps are coming from members of the community, not the dev team specifically. Don't talk to your car dealer about how the car should have been built, talk to the engineers as they build it! Just an idea anyway.

Cheers!

GamezLord · January 2005

not related ... but zephor i would take care of DuoTheGodOfDeath user in ur forums with the natzi symbols. he should be banned... having natzi symbols in the CAL forums says something about CAL

Jmmsbnd007 · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GamezLord @ Jan 14 2005, 02:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> not related ... but zephor i would take care of DuoTheGodOfDeath user in ur forums with the natzi symbols. he should be banned... having natzi symbols in the CAL forums says something about CAL  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I agree, natzis are terrible

Albino · January 2005

Those are not nazi symbols. Do your research.

phunktion · January 2005

if anyone cares i plan on reviving my map ns_orbital that i never finished.
lots of ppl have asked whay happened to to it.
i specifically designed it to be a competitive map .
i did extensive play testing of it on #nspug and got alot of good feed back. and most seemed to enjoy it and have seen win on boths sides equally

i'm in the process of fixing probelms and issues and i'll post it in this forum (rather than the mappping forum) for feedback from competitive players

Confused · January 2005

i am actually posting a thread in the CAL-NS forums right now to get feedback. we will see how it goes.

the proverbial proof is in the pudding here: <a href='http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=41688' target='_blank'>http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=41688</a>

Zephor · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GamezLord @ Jan 13 2005, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> not related ... but zephor i would take care of DuoTheGodOfDeath user in ur forums with the natzi symbols. he should be banned... having natzi symbols in the CAL forums says something about CAL </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html' target='_blank'>http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html</a>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
"The Swastika" is the oldest cross and emblem in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our own Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Hitler changed the swastika to a crooked one for the nazi symbol. The one that duo has in his avatar is the one described above. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' />

edit: dammit beaten

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
if anyone cares i plan on reviving my map ns_orbital that i never finished.
lots of ppl have asked whay happened to to it.
i specifically designed it to be a competitive map .
i did extensive play testing of it on #nspug and got alot of good feed back. and most seemed to enjoy it and have seen win on boths sides equally

i'm in the process of fixing probelms and issues and i'll post it in this forum (rather than the mappping forum) for feedback from competitive players
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
i am actually posting a thread in the CAL-NS forums right now to get feedback. we will see how it goes.

the proverbial proof is in the pudding here: <a href='http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=41688' target='_blank'>http://forums.caleague.com/index.php?showtopic=41688</a>
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I really dont think making threads with links of your maps in the CAL forums are going to get too much response probably because most clans will be more inclined to play the CAL map of the week and they do not want a map that they need to playtest to go on their record which is why we've been trying to put a few of them into preseason.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I can probably arrange those maps to be played in preseason. As for normal season I can really only do it with the full support of the community :>

Mouse · January 2005

I've been trying to balance ns_hydrosity for clan play for a little while now. The main problem is that no clans are ever willing.

Zephor · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Jan 15 2005, 01:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I've been trying to balance ns_hydrosity for clan play for a little while now. The main problem is that no clans are ever willing.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I have version 3 of hydrosity somewhere...is that the latest one? I got it a week after preseason started though or I would have put it into the preseason rotation since I remember this map from a very long time ago.

Mouse · January 2005

Pretty much, but there are some bugs in it that I'm working on atm. Should be only a day or two before I have them worked out.
(praps we should take this to PM)

Confused · January 2005

well, as i have no idea how my map will truely play i cannot in good concience ask that it be required. however, i would not be averse to it if it should proove to be balenced. however, that remains to be seen.

Gerald_R_Ford · January 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Confused @ Jan 15 2005, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> well, as i have no idea how my map will truely play i cannot in good concience ask that it be required. however, i would not be averse to it if it should proove to be balenced. however, that remains to be seen.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
another good thing to do, is remove the bugs <i>fast</i> and try to get the map in with beta 6.

Ns Maps: What's Going On?

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