Gamingorb Nations Cup!?!?

morphz · October 2004

Maybe if you wrote it in english, we could understand what you are saying. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Travis_Dane · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (deeluv @ Oct 29 2004, 01:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Oct 29 2004, 06:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> NS-Game ECC. Check your own website.

edit: and we're talking about the gamingorb's cup, not yours. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
i think you are wake up for some minutes.

If you can read, i post my opinion about gg´s nations cup.
and if you can read, you will see that i didnt write anything about our co cup.
so keep shhtt  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You sir, are talking out of your arse.

We have not been contacted in any way about this so called cup of yours, and if we were, it must have gotten cought up in your 24/7 IRC spam. Either way, we will certainly never enter a cup hosted by ns-game, and I think the majority of the Nation's Teams share this opinion.

And by 'we' I can safely say i'm speaking for the whole of the Dutch Nat Team.

Oh, and please don't litter lump's thread with your bollox PLEASE.

Lump · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zaiko @ Oct 28 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Oct 28 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> can you all please just stop arguing over this. its not useful and doesn't make you sexy.

scripts, some people hate em, some people love them. BIG WOW.

more Cup less spam kekeke?

lump` </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
i think it's relevant to the cup since it's about one rule
mp_bs 1

and here you got the argumrnts lined up

i won't reply to any more arugments around it though, since you have asked enough times at this point  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
This rule isn't going to be touched for a long time by the nations cup team, as i stated earlier.

The new patch may come out next month and change EVERYTHING about scripting.

One step at a time please, just sort your teams and get them scrimming/practicing!

lump`

gazOzz · October 2004

There is no such thing that there will be only one nations cup... GO can do their own and you can do your own... If somebody wanna play I can do my own... Infact the national teams that may want to play in each possibly be very different some players want to have specific rules etc.

But dont get me wrong deeluv; as a personal opinion a 1vs1 combat cup is not a good referance for organization of a nations cup... GO on the other hand seem to handle a classic league pretty good in terms of organisation and administration... Maybe you should consider organizing a clan war league before nations cup... This way players will have the opportunity to see what you are capable of...

comrade · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Oct 29 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Either way, we will certainly never enter a cup hosted by ns-game, and I think the majority of the Nation's Teams share this opinion.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Correct. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Ever since the whole ns-game/ns-league thing, both have been a joke.

Lump · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 29 2004, 07:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Oct 29 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Either way, we will certainly never enter a cup hosted by ns-game, and I think the majority of the Nation's Teams share this opinion. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Correct. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Ever since the whole ns-game/ns-league thing, both have been a joke.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
ns-league was good in my eyes at 1st.. only flaw was inactive clans dropping .: taking too long to complete and the fact is was a CUP not a league! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' />

Travis_Dane · October 2004

Right, to quickly return on-topic...

When exactely is the cup taking place?

deeluv · October 2004

of course.

everyone can orga a nations cup and it have no madder who make or think at first.

so have fun in doing. it is nice to hear more leagues and cups and all in euro

to the post, that it is a lie that we contact all nations and agreement.
sorry i edit:
we contact and get agree: it, esp, ger, fi, fr, dk, swe, po

not all nations of course.

Ots · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Oct 29 2004, 08:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Right, to quickly return on-topic...

When exactely is the cup taking place?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Sorry to be repeative, but lump said something along the lines of after the EU Classic League is over. Though i believe there might be some time between these cups, i dont think anyone knows it that right as of yet. lump can share what ever he has boiling in the cute little head of his, <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /> .

But yeah, considering the GO League is going to have its 4th matches played next week, it might take atad long before the nations cup will start.

FreeZe · October 2004

The cup wont start before january , because of holidays .

Forlorn · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Oct 29 2004, 07:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zaiko @ Oct 28 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lump @ Oct 28 2004, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> can you all please just stop arguing over this. its not useful and doesn't make you sexy.

scripts, some people hate em, some people love them. BIG WOW.

more Cup less spam kekeke?

lump` </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
i think it's relevant to the cup since it's about one rule
mp_bs 1

and here you got the argumrnts lined up

i won't reply to any more arugments around it though, since you have asked enough times at this point </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
This rule isn't going to be touched for a long time by the nations cup team, as i stated earlier.

The new patch may come out next month and change EVERYTHING about scripting.

One step at a time please, just sort your teams and get them scrimming/practicing!

lump` </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Paaathetic, I even showed you the plugin... you have no argument and yet you continue to hold bs_1 on. This is clearly admin bias towards their view on scripting.

Whatever, do what you want with your league. It's not my concern if you want to run a <b>good</b> league or not.

Naxo · October 2004

bs1: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks tbh"
bs0: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks ffs"

Percentages may vary in different countries.

So, basically, he made his choice, period. Now let's stop the neverending debate and talk about the... cup?

fanatic · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 29 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Oct 29 2004, 07:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Either way, we will certainly never enter a cup hosted by ns-game, and I think the majority of the Nation's Teams share this opinion. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Correct. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' />

Ever since the whole ns-game/ns-league thing, both have been a joke.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I think you're referring to the ns-league / nscups farce. I'm pretty sure that was totally unrelated to ns-game.

Fin · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Naxo @ Oct 29 2004, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> bs1: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks tbh"
bs0: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks ffs"

Percentages may vary in different countries.

So, basically, he made his choice, period. Now let's stop the neverending debate and talk about the... cup?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The cup supposed to represent the best in the world mate. The best understand scripts and the real implications of them. What happens when one of these scriptor teams wins without scripts this cup? How far behind in skill are then the non-scripting teams then? I wouldnt call it a good representation of skill when some teams are against scripts. And that is just because the best have a different view on scripts, and that is from experience. I know in the euro leagues there are some good teams which don't script and are against mousewheel. But i guess thats good news, or bad depending if you want to win the cup or you want real competition. Anyway it doesn't matter. How ever its hosted the best will win if they want too and if they show the determination.

MrBen · October 2004

This is a public service annoucement, would a David samra please shut the hell up?

Here is one fact for you it's all you need to know about the admins of gamingorb. When special is fixed any NS leagues will be bs_0. There is no admin bias, please stop making outrageous statements, you annoying little man.

This tidbit was bought to you by MrBen, deputy head admin of the Gamingorb NS league and firm believe in bs_0. Thank you for your time and worthless comments.

Alkiller · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Oct 29 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> When special is fixed any NS leagues will be bs_0.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Forlorn pointed out a plugin that will remove all possibility of using _special scripts.... how is that a worthless comment? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

tankefugl · October 2004

Because of the easier administration of the server is my guess. Totally understandable.

Fin · October 2004

Have you run server? It takes about 20 seconds to upload a plugin and then another hour test on the server to make sure it doesn't crash it. Understandable.
Even if the server didn't have any plugins running it would take no longer then 3 hours to properly set up the server and test it.

MrBen · October 2004

Like in CAL the league admins do not own any servers, it's not our place to say what plugins should be ran. Unless of course you feel like donating say 6 servers to the cause.

Fin · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Oct 30 2004, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Like in CAL the league admins do not own any servers, it's not our place to say what plugins should be ran. Unless of course you feel like donating say 6 servers to the cause.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Anyone will donate servers if you give them a specific timeline when they are needed and what is needed on them. Cal forces players to use C-D. That is a plugin and there is a specific cal-config. Your servers should be configured all same. And if you going to follow cal admins then just like them forget about _special.

Look mate, there are servers in NA that are already being used by multiply clans for scrims & matches. I doubt anyone of those servers would not offer itself to be used if you give them specific timetables and allow them to use hltv for the public viewing and support.

Instead of asking individuals how about you make a post on the cal forums asking any of the already being used servers if they are willing to participate.

Forlorn · October 2004

I find it hilarious that you enforce bs_1 when in fact... <b>it does not block _special, which your entire purpose of supposedly enforcing the varible.</b>

Again, bs_1 does not block _special.

That pluging I gave you does. If this is not admin bias, then it must be ignorance.

Furthermore, something else that disturbs me <b>greatly</b>:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Like in CAL the league admins do not own any servers, it's not our place to say what plugins should be ran. Unless of course you feel like donating say 6 servers to the cause.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

If you guys do not enforce how servers should be ran, then dear god can I expect:

- Messed up rates that cause unnessesary choke and loss?
- Weird plugins that change the gameplay? Gogogog lerklift
- CD on some servers, and CD not on others?

Look, people want a consistant gameplay experience. It is your job as admins to make sure that it happens.

CD is a plugin. CD is enforced by cal.
Furthermore CAL has it's own server config that all servers must run. They set rates and other varibles.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> bs1: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks tbh"
bs0: x% of the players will say "omg this league sucks ffs"

Percentages may vary in different countries.

So, basically, he made his choice, period. Now let's stop the neverending debate and talk about the... cup?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You are totally wrong, amongst good players the majority believe blockscripts varible is a load of crap. And since this league is for the best players, then why the hell should the majorities intrests not be represented?

tjosan · October 2004

Forlorn, be a little more patronizing please.

If you are to comment on how the league is run, at least freaking visit the site.

Also: discussion semantics is a very cheap trick, drop it please.

MrBen · October 2004

blockscripts_1 doesn't block special? Well, this is news to me - care to explain to me what it does block and how it all works?

Forlorn · October 2004

I just learned that you can pause games in the middle of the match. So if player drops then you can get him back.

This is silly, it just allows teams to reorganize themselves, they could easily abuse this and "drop" in case things are getting too hectic. Talk about abusable, and games ruined by bad rules. I thought online games are supposed to model how sports are run? As in, what happens stays that way?

And tjosan, I'm already on their forums.

EDIT:

Mr. Ben, just to explain this to you, and you can trust me, I'm a major exploiting/scripting bastard.

bs_1 blocks:

- Any "+" (plus) command. You cannot make a "+command" in your script as blockscript prevents that. Keep in mind, it only blocks BASIC commands, not any +command I could make up.

alias 3jumps "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; wait; +jump; wait; -jump"

is also blocked because it uses +basiccommand. Any "+" command is always blocked unless it is by itself in a bind, and it must be an original command.

- Any bind that has multiple commands in it. Not sure why this is so, but that's how it works.

For example,

bind x "impulse 12; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS OR I'M GONNA DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH"

Will not work, as x is being bound with more than one command, however

alias meds "impulse 12; say_team I NEED TEH MEDS OR I'M GONNA DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH"
bind x meds

Will work.

For this reason, romano's lastinv script, one of the largest useful scripts in all of NS works with bs_1 on.

That is all bs_1 blocks. People get this confused with _special being blocked, not true at all, _special is not a "+" command and it can be put in alias'es.
However, your typical _special jump script uses +commands, so it gets blocked.

However, a script such as

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>alias specialhop "-attack2; wait; +jump; wait; -jump; +attack2;"
alias "+hop" "alias _special specialhop; +moveup; +attack2;"
alias "-hop" "alias _special; -moveup; -attack2;"

alias specialpist "-attack2; wait; +attack; wait; -attack; +attack2;"
alias "+pist" "alias _special specialpist; +attack2;"
alias "-pist" "alias _special; -attack2;"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Gets blocked because of all the +basic-commands being used, NOT BECAUSE OF _SPECIAL.

A script like this would work, however,

Let f = Flashlight impulse (I forget it)

alias sflash"-attack2; wait; f; wait; f; +attack2;"
alias "+sflash" "alias _special sflash; +attack2;"
alias "-sflash" "alias _specia sflashl; -attack2;"

bind x +sflash

This script would spam the flashlight really, really fast.

With that said, blocking _special are bs_1 are two different beasts.

tjosan · October 2004

Forlorn, please explain how you could say what you did in the above post if you have taken the time to read through how the league is run?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
If you guys do not enforce how servers should be ran, then dear god can I expect:

- Messed up rates that cause unnessesary choke and loss?
- Weird plugins that change the gameplay? Gogogog lerklift
- CD on some servers, and CD not on others?

Look, people want a consistant gameplay experience. It is your job as admins to make sure that it happens.

CD is a plugin. CD is enforced by cal.
Furthermore CAL has it's own server config that all servers must run. They set rates and other varibles.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

This, for example.

Travis_Dane · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 30 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You are totally wrong, amongst good players the majority believe blockscripts varible is a load of crap. And since this league is for the best players, then why the hell should the majorities intrests not be represented?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I'm sorry, but this is a too big assumption to make. You cannot tell with full certainty this is the case, and as observed earlier in the thread, a lot of Europeans condem scripting, so you'll just be ignoring Europe then? Very nice indeed.

Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using scripts in this cup? You even pointed out yourself that scripting has no impact on gameplay at all, and is there merely for 'convience'. Now can I ask you, why are you so keen on having it allowed?

Forlorn · October 2004

Took me like 5 minutes to find the rules, site doesn't work in firefox, but I found some good portions of the rules:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- If a player drops from the server one person from the clan must say "PAUSE" over say (message mode 1) AFTER THE PLAYER HAS DROPPED and the referee will pause the game for a max of 3 mins.

- Substitutions ARE allowed but the former player must drop before the substitute may enter the server.

- Only referees or admins may spectate games in the opposing division to their clan. HLTV will be supplied when available.

- Each team will be allowed one PAUSE/map.

- Only referee(s) are allowed to pause/unpause a game.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Uh... that's awful right there. Abuse++

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Any actions partaken from this list will result in the involved clans/players being punished by; points removed from the clan, suspension of the clan or player for a set period, clan or player banned from the league.allowed:

- Command chairs can ONLY be placed with intent to relocate, this EXCLUDES the CC being placed in a place which blocks an entranceway (referee's discrimination)
- Using structures (other than the command chair) to block offence chambers/entraceways/vents/lifeforms.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I guess it's okay to block? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /> I've read some pretty dense laungage before, but this is tough...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Match Config

All games will be played on the gamingorb.ns league set servers with the league config used by the referee

(Rules may be subject to change before the league starts)

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why not just have a GO server config to use? GO.cfg , load that and any server can be used...

And when a config is loaded you can see all the varibles set in game so you can check nothing bad is going on.

Furthermore they do not list how they setup their servers either... I cannot find anything on their site that tells me.

Forlorn · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Oct 30 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 30 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You are totally wrong, amongst good players the majority believe blockscripts varible is a load of crap. And since this league is for the best players, then why the hell should the majorities intrests not be represented? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm sorry, but this is a too big assumption to make. You cannot tell with full certainty this is the case, and as observed earlier in the thread, a lot of Europeans condem scripting, so you'll just be ignoring Europe then? Very nice indeed.

Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using scripts in this cup? You even pointed out yourself that scripting has no impact on gameplay at all, and is there merely for 'convience'. Now can I ask you, why are you so keen on having it allowed?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You just answered your own question. Maybe it makes more sense if I rephrase this:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using scripts in this cup?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You even pointed out yourself that scripting has no impact on gameplay at all, and is there merely for 'convience'.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Simple substitution, and we get

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using convience in this cup?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, I don't know Travis, why don't you tell me?

Travis_Dane · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 31 2004, 12:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You just answered your own question. Maybe it makes more sense if I rephrase this:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using scripts in this cup?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You even pointed out yourself that scripting has no impact on gameplay at all, and is there merely for 'convience'.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Simple substitution, and we get

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aside from any blocking variable, what is the problem of not using convience in this cup?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, I don't know Travis, why don't you tell me?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Scripts can be exploited. And you'll allow exploiting of scripts just for your own 'convience'?

Forlorn · October 2004

The only exploitable scripts are the _special scripts. Unless you know of others, in which case it still does not justify the removal of scripts in it's entirety. I mean it's like one guy commits murder and then you declare martial law. You remove the FEW scripts that are bad, and keep the hundreds that are good and fine.

Gamingorb Nations Cup!?!?

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