ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 03:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't you think that it's just possible that a game only PTed by Lithuanian women in their 40s might end up not being as appealing to 20 year old American males as it would if they were included in the PT process? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You never know, it could be a hit. But would the Lithuanian women be focusing their video game to the American public, or to the Lithuanian public?
I don't see NS being in anyway attractive to how you people like to define women, but I still like it and play it because it's a fun game. And that's been the way I think of this game since I joined in 2.0.
Trying to bring everyone to the table is difficult and near-impossible at best. Because once you show favoritism to one group, others start complaining and will want similar favoritism. Then there will be massive arguments about who is better, who should be allowed, who shouldn't etc....
Oh wait, that's already going on.
One person of an ethnicity can NEVER be compared to the enitre race, it's just not possible to make a true connection that way.
You don't send a criminal who does drugs and steals cars to an IVY league university if she's white, but when she's black, of course they'll take her over a woman who's a scholor taking AP courses and in the Honors program with an A- average due to crappy affirmative action(this happened to me in real life), and she was arrested on campus half a year later for drugs, had a horrible GPA, and could care less, because she knew she was milking the system.
For the PTs, don't let others milk the system and get what they want. Keep picking people that just want to bugtest the game they love. Anominity over the internet allows people to lie and be what they want if they want to get in, and it's very sad what I've seen happening alot all over the internet, and how my own credibility is driven into the ground from people like that.
Oi, long rant >_<.
Great games do not have to appeal to people. Super Mario never appealed to any one group, and it was one of the greatest groundbreaking beginning games of all time with it's own legacy for some reason. Coded by Japanese people, pertaining to an Italian plumber, jumping on ficticious animals, and directed at children, but ended up being a longtime hit.
Who you direct the game to doesn't matter. Making a great game is what matters. Pick the people you know will be better for it, not what the public opinion feels. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Best post of the day *claps*
Now can't we get along like the mature people we are?
Yes but those who say they are quitting have already been around forever. They just want to finish one more season and either find another game or just get lost. Because the feeling of being unwanted meets oppinion of "If you don't like it, get out".
I've already met some PT's who are just like "I can't do anything, NS is doomed, it's been fun etc. etc."
I know a clan that already wants to leave after season 5, before I was always skeptical of when people say they are leaving, but the general vibe I get is that people are serious...
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 22 2004, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 22 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes but those who say they are quitting have already been around forever. They just want to finish one more season and either find another game or just get lost. Because the feeling of being unwanted meets oppinion of "If you don't like it, get out".
I've already met some PT's who are just like "I can't do anything, NS is doomed, it's been fun etc. etc."
I know a clan that already wants to leave after season 5, before I was always skeptical of when people say they are leaving, but the general vibe I get is that people are serious... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think if they are frustrated to that point, they should take some time off if they've already tried other avenues.
You can't test if you're upset with what you're testing. Getting emotional about it is the worst way to continue. Keep in mind that this mod is a couple years old and people will get tired of it. New people will come in and old people will leave. It's the way of the world.
There is definitely a shelf life for mods and games in general. The majority of people can only stay interested for so long before looking for something new. Playtesters are not immune to this. As a playtester, you also need to remember that you're not a developer, although you're very close to them and when it comes down to it, they get to make the decisions on how things get run.
I don't see how it can be considered a failure when an FPS loses players after 2 years... People are going to get sick of it eventually, and new players are still coming in(though the attitude towards them around here isn't helping). Just because somebody of high E-status gets tired of the game doesn't mean it's going down the crapper.
I have to say that the order presented initianlly wokrks for me.
Forlorn, if the objective of PTing was to balence the game then i would agree that the skill of the players would be very important. However, the objective is to make sure the game has no bugs. And most critically, to inform the devs the problems therein in a manner which is concise and accurate.
The reason that skill isn't important in this is that if doing something stupid breaks the game, Skilled players won't be as likely to preform something stupid. simply becasue they know it is stupid and amy cost them the game, even if it doesn't break NS. I wil admit that this is not entirely fair to the skilled player base. I know alot of you have done some reallly stupid things on server I have been present on.
It is not a bad thing to use different groups to test the game. for those of us who fall into the american/european white male between 14-21 group it sucks, I know. But, we can trust that we have people who represent us and our insatiable attachment to D-M-S. in the PTs.
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 22 2004, 08:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 22 2004, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-supernorn2000+Oct 22 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ Oct 22 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Oct 22 2004, 07:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Oct 22 2004, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because everyone knows that killing a lot is better than being able to transmit your thoughts in an educated and comprehensible way. Right? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> whut j00 meen mendasp? Skillz pwn teh Communikation any day kthnx! ! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is I don't know any truly skilled people who actually speak like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The point I was trying to get across is that being able to communicate is far more important than being highly skilled at the game. If you notice something that needs fixing and cant describe it or get your point across, no-one knows what you're saying, and the problem stays. I wasnt "mocking" skilled people, i'm fully aware that they dont speak like 10 year olds. (well most of them anyway)
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 02:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 01:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think race/gender/ethnicity matter much to people who want a balanced game that is fun for all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product. Don't you think that it's just possible that a game only PTed by Lithuanian women in their 40s might end up not being as appealing to 20 year old American males as it would if they were included in the PT process? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you're missing the point here - why racial selection is so flawed is that you're implying that by each ethnicity you get a largely similiar viewpoint. If you cannot see how utterly crazy that is, then go ahead and value oppinions by the rarity of the ethnicity of the person that utters them.
However if it makes sense to you that amongst small ethnic groups alone nowadays their is almost unlimited diversity (not to mention blurring of any ethnic lines) in outlooks, and that if you want diverse oppinions on NS you would have to sort people by their deeds and words, then lets just do that instead.
I don't even disagree with looking for people from different regional markets (well, audiences) - that makes some solid sense, as each major part of the playerbase should be represented. But ethnicity? Give me a break.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Oct 22 2004, 03:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Oct 22 2004, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't even disagree with looking for people from different regional markets (well, audiences) - that makes some solid sense, as each major part of the playerbase should be represented. But ethnicity? Give me a break. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I still haven't heard a convincing response to my suggestion that the 40 year old Lithuanian women will have different PT input from the 20 year old American lads. Of course I don't care about their particular 'ethnicity'. By "Lithuanian" I mean "someone living most of their life in Lithuania and who would call it home, even if that person came from a Russian father and a Japanese mother". But it's more typing that way. By ethnicity, I'm a Romanian/German/Cherokee. I don't pretend, when it comes to grouping by cultures, that I'm anything other than a standard caucasian from the Midwest of the U.S. So ignoring semantic details, my argument still stands. Getting differing inputs from multiple groups is a good idea.
My girlfriend, for example, doesn't like NS. Having more input from females that play NS might steer the game in a direction that would make it more enjoyable for her. Or it might just prove that females that play NS have a different mindset from my girlfriend. (Sadly, the more likely outcome -- I know my girlfriend <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) But it's still better to make the effort.
Right, but a game appealing to Lithunian female gamers is only bad in the way that they're not a terribly big group. Almost all games appeal primarily to the sub 30 group, and predominantly white or asian - durrr. Getting a minority in for the sake of it, if they don't even like the game concept as it is makes no sense - thats a marketing survey if you're trying to find a good niche to throw a cash-cow product at, not a playtesting effort. Last I checked the idea here was to improve NS, and you go about that by talking to the people that already enjoy it in concept and would like to see more of it - wether they're purple, pink or australians.
Again, getting more regional input is a perfectly necessary evil to expand a playerbase - however, beyond that sorting by any type of ethnicity or other type of minority is both slightly unethical (not that anyone cares) and brings no tangible benefits. The idea is after all figuring out who plays NS alot, and continuing to appeal to these people - so a conscious effort to make it friendlier to the transgendered for example is just wasted time. I'd have no objection to someone like that being in the PT group simply because they play alot of NS and can think critically - but I would object to a preference placed on them under the guise of horribly failed reasoning.
Or to put it more simply : If a total of 100 Lithunians play NS, having one Lithunian in the PT programm might help you retain another 90 players. Having one american, euro or south korean in the programm might help you retain another 10'000 each or expand on that already huge number. Not that I'd advocate homogenizing (I'm far from wanting that) for that reason, but saying "We have enough of you guys anyway" is not something you want to tell your fanbase.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Oct 22 2004, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Oct 22 2004, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My girlfriend, for example, doesn't like NS. Having more input from females that play NS might steer the game in a direction that would make it more enjoyable for her. Or it might just prove that females that play NS have a different mindset from my girlfriend. (Sadly, the more likely outcome -- I know my girlfriend <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) But it's still better to make the effort. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You want an idea from my perspective? Female models for marines. Only a cosmetic thing. Gameplay wouldn't help attract more women, just cosmetics and how it looks would. And the only reason this game attracted me is because I love Sci-Fi.
And about the Lithuanian women....
Who's to say the American Men would want a game made by Females from Europe? Who's to say the women would direct it at American men to begin with? Why not Europe? Why not just girls? Why not just 30 year old people in the closet?
I HIGHLY doubt Rockstar games had blacks, puerto ricans, hispanics, homosexuals, Italian, japanese, columbians, prostitutes, etc. test THEIR Grand Theft Auto games at the same time, from all parties of conservatists and liberals all over the world. Yet they're quite successful. And I don't even like the GTA series, but I have friends, both guys and girls, that play the game regularly. Heck, my sister can't wait for San Andreas, and I call her strange :/.
Well, GTA 3 was banned in Australia for awhile till they fixed the problem with the prostitute they had. So they should have had a few more conservatist Australian playtesters for such a needlessly violent cultural game?
Na. They produced by what they liked, and it became a hit. They didn't get all carefully multicultural like Barbie and try to please everyone. They went for the gold and got it.
And that's how I feel what NS and it's playtesters should do. Pick by who is best, not by who is what.
Because comparing Lithuanian Women to American Men is silly, because each will produce a different game based on how they were brought up and what they know(Rebelling and violence isn't very big in Lithanian or European childhood cultures at young ages like in America). Even by hiring a few Young American Men playtesters, they'll probably mock the women's attempt to make a feasable game instead of help, considering how the people with "skill" usually are, because REGARDLESS of ethnicity, there will always be a jerk to every good person of the same. The Lithuanian women probably wouldn't even try to get help from the Americans(Because we ALL know the women would make the better game than those men anyway =P).
Once again, ethnicity/race/gender/sexuality/species isn't the answer!
Not like I hold grudges or anything, just voicing my opinions and taking advantage of bad examples that try to belittle me and Lithuanian women(I'm not Lithuanian btw) =P.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Oct 22 2004, 02:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Oct 22 2004, 02:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 4) Skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to flat out and say it.
That's Bull****.
So you can aim and bunny hop around and for some reason you can balance a game and give correct infomation, statistics, and analysis on what could be tweaked or fixed (bug wise)? Let alone, I see people with 54 and 10 and they don't know WHICH GODDAM HIVE IS WHICH OR WHAT CARA DOES (honest to god, he got lost on the map)!
If anything, you should pick people with low scores, medium score and a few people with higher scores. That's what really happens. Let alone people who just Gorge for support but at the drop of a hat hold his own against a few of his enemy. The best way over all would be a somewhat random group that don't know each other. They get familar and start using alot more teamwork than you'd see on a pub. I know, I beta-tested The Trenches, the more we used teamwork, the more the game changed.
That idea alone of using skill is same chiche of Dodgeball. Sinces he is good, he must be the biggest asset we have! What about those you think out problems or can use technicallities to win. Then maybe the good player isn't the BEST player. Uh oh, I just found me a major flaw there, better test that one out! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whilst we understand that many people think that they would make good testers, we have limited need to further represent the 14-21 year old, white, affluent European/American male demographic in testing right now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This comment in the initial post wasn't referring to anything 'sinister' (as it appears to have been turned into over the past few pages), all it is refering to is the lack of playtesters in the Pacific region, at the moment there are 4 Pacific playtesters (myself included) evenly spread between two clans. Because of the wonders of time zones, the european and american playtests usually occur when we're asleep or when we're getting ready for work/school; as you can imagine, this makes attending playtests regularly relatively hard.
As I outlined above, for the Pacific playtesters to become remotely useful, our numbers need to be bolstered, significantly.
<!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Oct 22 2004, 07:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Oct 22 2004, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Oct 22 2004, 02:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Oct 22 2004, 02:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 4) Skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to flat out and say it.
That's Bull****.
So you can aim and bunny hop around and for some reason you can balance a game and give correct infomation, statistics, and analysis on what could be tweaked or fixed (bug wise)? Let alone, I see people with 54 and 10 and they don't know WHICH GODDAM HIVE IS WHICH OR WHAT CARA DOES (honest to god, he got lost on the map)!
If anything, you should pick people with low scores, medium score and a few people with higher scores. That's what really happens. Let alone people who just Gorge for support but at the drop of a hat hold his own against a few of his enemy. The best way over all would be a somewhat random group that don't know each other. They get familar and start using alot more teamwork than you'd see on a pub. I know, I beta-tested The Trenches, the more we used teamwork, the more the game changed.
That idea alone of using skill is same chiche of Dodgeball. Sinces he is good, he must be the biggest asset we have! What about those you think out problems or can use technicallities to win. Then maybe the good player isn't the BEST player. Uh oh, I just found me a major flaw there, better test that one out! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to have the same misconception a lot of people. Score does <b>not</b> equal skill. Depending on what servers you play on, I'm sure you can get a variety of high and low scores. There is a lot more factors into how skillful a person is. Having the raw hand-eye coordination skills is part of it, but also the mind aspect of the game comes into it as well. Knowing each map is important, knowing the key points of each map is also important, knowing the benefits of each unit and upgrade is important, knowing how to use them in a game in certain situations is important, the list goes on and on and on. All in all, skill encompasses a lot of the aspects of the game, from being able to aim and control the aliens to having a good sense of how the game works, tactically and strategically.
Now that I think about it, very imaginative people would make great playtesters.
Because these imaginative people would think of keen ways to exploit things, and after all, exploits are bugs, be honest! From Bunnyhopping to gammahacking to scripting, tis a bug. And the best exploiters would make good bugtrackers, but they don't want to give up their exploit that gives them the edge in battle.
Just because many people exploit one thing does NOT make it a ligal move in the game. And these "skill" people take advantage of exploits most of the time to get the "skill" reputation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stuff about bugs <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another.
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 23 2004, 01:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 23 2004, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stuff about bugs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ^
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 22 2004, 05:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 22 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stuff about bugs <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I already started it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I see a lot more skill (however you want to define it) around than reason, patience, discretion, and the ability to communicate effectively and calmly, so it's not alltogether that surprising to me to see it lower. Either way, I'd simply prefer to have people who will probably be representing the <b>vast</b> majority of the game's playerbase giving feedback on whether or not something ruins the game. I'll have to agree with Grendel on this one.
Mixed skill levels only really come forward when you're doing balance testing, something iirc the Constie's are handy for.
Pure fulltime (as it were) PTs have to worry about the details, the nuances, the strange little things. Finding map holes, siege exploits, etc.
A person with "skill", and I'm talking true tactical skill here, not button mashing or reaction time, they'll be trying these things, running into vents, building in odd places, what would be considered wacky stuff. But if they can't COMMUNICATE this then its pretty useless considering their job is effectively the detection and reporting of bugs.
When the game comes into the hands of the many then you get bugs coming up from really really really REALLY bizarre minutiae which can only happen on totally chaotic pubs.
Representation of player base and skill can be found in the Consties and if need be, the community. PTing as I read it is not about representing players, or who can use the shotgun in the best way. In fact if anything you'll probably get more interesting bug feedback from someone who has no idea what things are meant to be used for. A person without a clue as to something's operation is much more likely to break it.
In response to the cry of "strawman", I'll clarify my original statement. If you can't explain the bug concisely in english, then what are you in the PT system for? If you never turn up for the PT sessions, then why are you in the system? These things are key to the PT job, a hell of a lot more important than balance tweaks.
I mean seriously folks, PTing means running around the same map nonstop trying to find clipping problems, holes, faulty switches, etc etc etc. Skill only has so much to do with it.
For balance testing however I'd have to agree that 3 and 4 become a good deal more important.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Nice to know, Grendel. Though I must ask...
What about people who play quite often, and are very active in the community overall? Will they be chosen before, or after a clanner who is very dedicated/skilled?
And lastly, is bribery a good way to get on? I still have 2 slices of my pizza left <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Blue Mary+Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blue Mary @ Oct 22 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From Bunnyhopping to gammahacking to scripting, tis a bug. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhopping : Intentional feature of the Quake physics engine, which Half-Life adapted.
Scripting : Half-Life scripting language which just happens to be an integral part of the base Half-Life game. Every possible action in half-life intentionally has its corresponding console command - wether its moving left, right, looking up, hitting use, brightness correction or jumping. It even comes with its own method of preventing exploits - namely the functioning of the wait ; command. It disallows anything highly automated by queuing up and halting further input processing - so you can't run a script with 10 waits in it, like a horribly misconstructed pistolscript, and walk at the same time.
Gamma (hacking? huh?) : Some monitors are darker than others. Gamma and brightness commands hence exist in the HL console, videocard drivers, on a monitors physical adjustment panel and heck knows where else. Other than washing out your color, overbrightening with this method brings little to no advantage - contrasts are not strengthened significantly, nor do cloakers stick out more. Feel free to turn your gamma up to eyesore level and see if cloakers become significantly more visible at all - they don't. Monitor size and rendering method (d3d or opengl, monolights or no) are the only factors that can make skulks more visible.
<!--QuoteBegin-Half the NS community+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Half the NS community)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripting is wrong!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-The other half+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The other half)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No it's not!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good, I'm glad we worked that out. Well argued everyone. Now stop bringing it up in THIS thread.
Grendel- If ya need an extra person to helpout that would be helpful,Like needing a person to take the time to look for bugs,exploits etc.
I'm at NS close to about 10 to 15 hours aday straight sometimes longer so time wouldn't be a prob would be at every pt session.
I would stick to the task at hand and not deviate from it,would listen and do everything I'm told.
I would be helpful in telling you or another player I can do this here or there or what I might find or what should be taken out, looked at closely,give suggestions on how to do this or that,where and when.
From Playing NS for 10 to 15hours aday straight I have the patience.
Grendel- If ya need an extra person to helpout that would be helpful,Like needing a person to take the time to look for bugs,exploits etc.
I'm at NS close to about 10 to 15 hours aday straight sometimes longer so time wouldn't be a prob would be at every pt session.
I would stick to the task at hand and not deviate from it,would listen and do everything I'm told.
I would be helpful in telling you or another player I can do this here or there or what I might find or what should be taken out, looked at closely,give suggestions on how to do this or that,where and when.
From Playing NS for 10 to 15hours aday straight I have the patience. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sadly, I don't believe their "Looking"- or ever will be. They usually base it upon how much of a impression you make, and whether its a good or bad one. For example: Redford makes a good impression. Redford is a playtester. <span style='color:orange'>negative example removed; we still get the idea from seeing the positive, and this way we won't see any sort of comeback</span>
Comments
You never know, it could be a hit. But would the Lithuanian women be focusing their video game to the American public, or to the Lithuanian public?
I don't see NS being in anyway attractive to how you people like to define women, but I still like it and play it because it's a fun game. And that's been the way I think of this game since I joined in 2.0.
Trying to bring everyone to the table is difficult and near-impossible at best. Because once you show favoritism to one group, others start complaining and will want similar favoritism. Then there will be massive arguments about who is better, who should be allowed, who shouldn't etc....
Oh wait, that's already going on.
One person of an ethnicity can NEVER be compared to the enitre race, it's just not possible to make a true connection that way.
You don't send a criminal who does drugs and steals cars to an IVY league university if she's white, but when she's black, of course they'll take her over a woman who's a scholor taking AP courses and in the Honors program with an A- average due to crappy affirmative action(this happened to me in real life), and she was arrested on campus half a year later for drugs, had a horrible GPA, and could care less, because she knew she was milking the system.
For the PTs, don't let others milk the system and get what they want. Keep picking people that just want to bugtest the game they love. Anominity over the internet allows people to lie and be what they want if they want to get in, and it's very sad what I've seen happening alot all over the internet, and how my own credibility is driven into the ground from people like that.
Oi, long rant >_<.
Great games do not have to appeal to people. Super Mario never appealed to any one group, and it was one of the greatest groundbreaking beginning games of all time with it's own legacy for some reason. Coded by Japanese people, pertaining to an Italian plumber, jumping on ficticious animals, and directed at children, but ended up being a longtime hit.
Who you direct the game to doesn't matter. Making a great game is what matters. Pick the people you know will be better for it, not what the public opinion feels. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best post of the day *claps*
Now can't we get along like the mature people we are?
I've already met some PT's who are just like "I can't do anything, NS is doomed, it's been fun etc. etc."
I know a clan that already wants to leave after season 5, before I was always skeptical of when people say they are leaving, but the general vibe I get is that people are serious...
I've already met some PT's who are just like "I can't do anything, NS is doomed, it's been fun etc. etc."
I know a clan that already wants to leave after season 5, before I was always skeptical of when people say they are leaving, but the general vibe I get is that people are serious... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if they are frustrated to that point, they should take some time off if they've already tried other avenues.
You can't test if you're upset with what you're testing. Getting emotional about it is the worst way to continue. Keep in mind that this mod is a couple years old and people will get tired of it. New people will come in and old people will leave. It's the way of the world.
There is definitely a shelf life for mods and games in general. The majority of people can only stay interested for so long before looking for something new. Playtesters are not immune to this. As a playtester, you also need to remember that you're not a developer, although you're very close to them and when it comes down to it, they get to make the decisions on how things get run.
I have to say that the order presented initianlly wokrks for me.
Forlorn, if the objective of PTing was to balence the game then i would agree that the skill of the players would be very important. However, the objective is to make sure the game has no bugs. And most critically, to inform the devs the problems therein in a manner which is concise and accurate.
The reason that skill isn't important in this is that if doing something stupid breaks the game, Skilled players won't be as likely to preform something stupid. simply becasue they know it is stupid and amy cost them the game, even if it doesn't break NS. I wil admit that this is not entirely fair to the skilled player base. I know alot of you have done some reallly stupid things on server I have been present on.
It is not a bad thing to use different groups to test the game. for those of us who fall into the american/european white male between 14-21 group it sucks, I know. But, we can trust that we have people who represent us and our insatiable attachment to D-M-S. in the PTs.
whut j00 meen mendasp? Skillz pwn teh Communikation any day kthnx! ! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is I don't know any truly skilled people who actually speak like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point I was trying to get across is that being able to communicate is far more important than being highly skilled at the game. If you notice something that needs fixing and cant describe it or get your point across, no-one knows what you're saying, and the problem stays. I wasnt "mocking" skilled people, i'm fully aware that they dont speak like 10 year olds. (well most of them anyway)
And you don't think you might be able to bring another point of view to the table that may not be represented elsewhere? The more points of view that are available, the more well rounded the final product. Don't you think that it's just possible that a game only PTed by Lithuanian women in their 40s might end up not being as appealing to 20 year old American males as it would if they were included in the PT process? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you're missing the point here - why racial selection is so flawed is that you're implying that by each ethnicity you get a largely similiar viewpoint. If you cannot see how utterly crazy that is, then go ahead and value oppinions by the rarity of the ethnicity of the person that utters them.
However if it makes sense to you that amongst small ethnic groups alone nowadays their is almost unlimited diversity (not to mention blurring of any ethnic lines) in outlooks, and that if you want diverse oppinions on NS you would have to sort people by their deeds and words, then lets just do that instead.
I don't even disagree with looking for people from different regional markets (well, audiences) - that makes some solid sense, as each major part of the playerbase should be represented. But ethnicity? Give me a break.
I still haven't heard a convincing response to my suggestion that the 40 year old Lithuanian women will have different PT input from the 20 year old American lads. Of course I don't care about their particular 'ethnicity'. By "Lithuanian" I mean "someone living most of their life in Lithuania and who would call it home, even if that person came from a Russian father and a Japanese mother". But it's more typing that way. By ethnicity, I'm a Romanian/German/Cherokee. I don't pretend, when it comes to grouping by cultures, that I'm anything other than a standard caucasian from the Midwest of the U.S. So ignoring semantic details, my argument still stands. Getting differing inputs from multiple groups is a good idea.
My girlfriend, for example, doesn't like NS. Having more input from females that play NS might steer the game in a direction that would make it more enjoyable for her. Or it might just prove that females that play NS have a different mindset from my girlfriend. (Sadly, the more likely outcome -- I know my girlfriend <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) But it's still better to make the effort.
Again, getting more regional input is a perfectly necessary evil to expand a playerbase - however, beyond that sorting by any type of ethnicity or other type of minority is both slightly unethical (not that anyone cares) and brings no tangible benefits. The idea is after all figuring out who plays NS alot, and continuing to appeal to these people - so a conscious effort to make it friendlier to the transgendered for example is just wasted time. I'd have no objection to someone like that being in the PT group simply because they play alot of NS and can think critically - but I would object to a preference placed on them under the guise of horribly failed reasoning.
Or to put it more simply : If a total of 100 Lithunians play NS, having one Lithunian in the PT programm might help you retain another 90 players. Having one american, euro or south korean in the programm might help you retain another 10'000 each or expand on that already huge number. Not that I'd advocate homogenizing (I'm far from wanting that) for that reason, but saying "We have enough of you guys anyway" is not something you want to tell your fanbase.
You want an idea from my perspective? Female models for marines. Only a cosmetic thing. Gameplay wouldn't help attract more women, just cosmetics and how it looks would. And the only reason this game attracted me is because I love Sci-Fi.
And about the Lithuanian women....
Who's to say the American Men would want a game made by Females from Europe? Who's to say the women would direct it at American men to begin with? Why not Europe? Why not just girls? Why not just 30 year old people in the closet?
I HIGHLY doubt Rockstar games had blacks, puerto ricans, hispanics, homosexuals, Italian, japanese, columbians, prostitutes, etc. test THEIR Grand Theft Auto games at the same time, from all parties of conservatists and liberals all over the world. Yet they're quite successful. And I don't even like the GTA series, but I have friends, both guys and girls, that play the game regularly. Heck, my sister can't wait for San Andreas, and I call her strange :/.
Well, GTA 3 was banned in Australia for awhile till they fixed the problem with the prostitute they had. So they should have had a few more conservatist Australian playtesters for such a needlessly violent cultural game?
Na. They produced by what they liked, and it became a hit. They didn't get all carefully multicultural like Barbie and try to please everyone. They went for the gold and got it.
And that's how I feel what NS and it's playtesters should do. Pick by who is best, not by who is what.
Because comparing Lithuanian Women to American Men is silly, because each will produce a different game based on how they were brought up and what they know(Rebelling and violence isn't very big in Lithanian or European childhood cultures at young ages like in America). Even by hiring a few Young American Men playtesters, they'll probably mock the women's attempt to make a feasable game instead of help, considering how the people with "skill" usually are, because REGARDLESS of ethnicity, there will always be a jerk to every good person of the same. The Lithuanian women probably wouldn't even try to get help from the Americans(Because we ALL know the women would make the better game than those men anyway =P).
Once again, ethnicity/race/gender/sexuality/species isn't the answer!
Not like I hold grudges or anything, just voicing my opinions and taking advantage of bad examples that try to belittle me and Lithuanian women(I'm not Lithuanian btw) =P.
(Except maybe me, because I'm special.)
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I'm going to flat out and say it.
That's Bull****.
So you can aim and bunny hop around and for some reason you can balance a game and give correct infomation, statistics, and analysis on what could be tweaked or fixed (bug wise)? Let alone, I see people with 54 and 10 and they don't know WHICH GODDAM HIVE IS WHICH OR WHAT CARA DOES (honest to god, he got lost on the map)!
If anything, you should pick people with low scores, medium score and a few people with higher scores. That's what really happens. Let alone people who just Gorge for support but at the drop of a hat hold his own against a few of his enemy. The best way over all would be a somewhat random group that don't know each other. They get familar and start using alot more teamwork than you'd see on a pub. I know, I beta-tested The Trenches, the more we used teamwork, the more the game changed.
That idea alone of using skill is same chiche of Dodgeball. Sinces he is good, he must be the biggest asset we have! What about those you think out problems or can use technicallities to win. Then maybe the good player isn't the BEST player. Uh oh, I just found me a major flaw there, better test that one out! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This comment in the initial post wasn't referring to anything 'sinister' (as it appears to have been turned into over the past few pages), all it is refering to is the lack of playtesters in the Pacific region, at the moment there are 4 Pacific playtesters (myself included) evenly spread between two clans. Because of the wonders of time zones, the european and american playtests usually occur when we're asleep or when we're getting ready for work/school; as you can imagine, this makes attending playtests regularly relatively hard.
As I outlined above, for the Pacific playtesters to become remotely useful, our numbers need to be bolstered, significantly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to flat out and say it.
That's Bull****.
So you can aim and bunny hop around and for some reason you can balance a game and give correct infomation, statistics, and analysis on what could be tweaked or fixed (bug wise)? Let alone, I see people with 54 and 10 and they don't know WHICH GODDAM HIVE IS WHICH OR WHAT CARA DOES (honest to god, he got lost on the map)!
If anything, you should pick people with low scores, medium score and a few people with higher scores. That's what really happens. Let alone people who just Gorge for support but at the drop of a hat hold his own against a few of his enemy. The best way over all would be a somewhat random group that don't know each other. They get familar and start using alot more teamwork than you'd see on a pub. I know, I beta-tested The Trenches, the more we used teamwork, the more the game changed.
That idea alone of using skill is same chiche of Dodgeball. Sinces he is good, he must be the biggest asset we have! What about those you think out problems or can use technicallities to win. Then maybe the good player isn't the BEST player. Uh oh, I just found me a major flaw there, better test that one out! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to have the same misconception a lot of people. Score does <b>not</b> equal skill. Depending on what servers you play on, I'm sure you can get a variety of high and low scores. There is a lot more factors into how skillful a person is. Having the raw hand-eye coordination skills is part of it, but also the mind aspect of the game comes into it as well. Knowing each map is important, knowing the key points of each map is also important, knowing the benefits of each unit and upgrade is important, knowing how to use them in a game in certain situations is important, the list goes on and on and on. All in all, skill encompasses a lot of the aspects of the game, from being able to aim and control the aliens to having a good sense of how the game works, tactically and strategically.
Because these imaginative people would think of keen ways to exploit things, and after all, exploits are bugs, be honest! From Bunnyhopping to gammahacking to scripting, tis a bug. And the best exploiters would make good bugtrackers, but they don't want to give up their exploit that gives them the edge in battle.
Just because many people exploit one thing does NOT make it a ligal move in the game. And these "skill" people take advantage of exploits most of the time to get the "skill" reputation.
I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another.
edit: To quote maddox:
True diversity comes from people with different skin color!
I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
^
Yeah.
I would edit that out about scripting if I were you because you're simply wrong and it will start a rant thread where both sides have stupid arguments with one another. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already started it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
...Get some fresh air...or something....bleh.
Pure fulltime (as it were) PTs have to worry about the details, the nuances, the strange little things. Finding map holes, siege exploits, etc.
A person with "skill", and I'm talking true tactical skill here, not button mashing or reaction time, they'll be trying these things, running into vents, building in odd places, what would be considered wacky stuff. But if they can't COMMUNICATE this then its pretty useless considering their job is effectively the detection and reporting of bugs.
When the game comes into the hands of the many then you get bugs coming up from really really really REALLY bizarre minutiae which can only happen on totally chaotic pubs.
Representation of player base and skill can be found in the Consties and if need be, the community. PTing as I read it is not about representing players, or who can use the shotgun in the best way. In fact if anything you'll probably get more interesting bug feedback from someone who has no idea what things are meant to be used for. A person without a clue as to something's operation is much more likely to break it.
In response to the cry of "strawman", I'll clarify my original statement. If you can't explain the bug concisely in english, then what are you in the PT system for? If you never turn up for the PT sessions, then why are you in the system? These things are key to the PT job, a hell of a lot more important than balance tweaks.
I mean seriously folks, PTing means running around the same map nonstop trying to find clipping problems, holes, faulty switches, etc etc etc. Skill only has so much to do with it.
For balance testing however I'd have to agree that 3 and 4 become a good deal more important.
What about people who play quite often, and are very active in the community overall? Will they be chosen before, or after a clanner who is very dedicated/skilled?
And lastly, is bribery a good way to get on? I still have 2 slices of my pizza left <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bunnyhopping :
Intentional feature of the Quake physics engine, which Half-Life adapted.
Scripting :
Half-Life scripting language which just happens to be an integral part of the base Half-Life game. Every possible action in half-life intentionally has its corresponding console command - wether its moving left, right, looking up, hitting use, brightness correction or jumping. It even comes with its own method of preventing exploits - namely the functioning of the wait ; command. It disallows anything highly automated by queuing up and halting further input processing - so you can't run a script with 10 waits in it, like a horribly misconstructed pistolscript, and walk at the same time.
Gamma (hacking? huh?) :
Some monitors are darker than others. Gamma and brightness commands hence exist in the HL console, videocard drivers, on a monitors physical adjustment panel and heck knows where else. Other than washing out your color, overbrightening with this method brings little to no advantage - contrasts are not strengthened significantly, nor do cloakers stick out more. Feel free to turn your gamma up to eyesore level and see if cloakers become significantly more visible at all - they don't. Monitor size and rendering method (d3d or opengl, monolights or no) are the only factors that can make skulks more visible.
<!--QuoteBegin-The other half+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The other half)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No it's not!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good, I'm glad we worked that out. Well argued everyone. Now stop bringing it up in THIS thread.
Grendel- If ya need an extra person to helpout that would be helpful,Like needing a person to take the time to look for bugs,exploits etc.
I'm at NS close to about 10 to 15 hours aday straight sometimes longer so time wouldn't be a prob would be at every pt session.
I would stick to the task at hand and not deviate from it,would listen and do everything I'm told.
I would be helpful in telling you or another player I can do this here or there or what I might find or what should be taken out, looked at closely,give suggestions on how to do this or that,where and when.
From Playing NS for 10 to 15hours aday straight I have the patience.
Grendel- If ya need an extra person to helpout that would be helpful,Like needing a person to take the time to look for bugs,exploits etc.
I'm at NS close to about 10 to 15 hours aday straight sometimes longer so time wouldn't be a prob would be at every pt session.
I would stick to the task at hand and not deviate from it,would listen and do everything I'm told.
I would be helpful in telling you or another player I can do this here or there or what I might find or what should be taken out, looked at closely,give suggestions on how to do this or that,where and when.
From Playing NS for 10 to 15hours aday straight I have the patience. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, I don't believe their "Looking"- or ever will be. They usually base it upon how much of a impression you make, and whether its a good or bad one. For example: Redford makes a good impression. Redford is a playtester. <span style='color:orange'>negative example removed; we still get the idea from seeing the positive, and this way we won't see any sort of comeback</span>