<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there a list of current PTs anywhere? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there a list of current PTs anywhere? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most.
<!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there a list of current PTs anywhere? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 10%, that's pretty good.
I think that in a previous thread it was said that there were not B6 servers on steam. They are using some other system. Even then you have to remember that not everyone is in the US or what other country that you are in. A 8-10 player server with only 80 people over all located in the forums would probably lead to a decent average. Now for large server testing yes this would not be good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn [ +Comprox ] Me, Myself, I and that nub with 2 posts is not 'many' Just supporting the whole idea of preformance over socialness, as clearly postcount is suppose to mean something here <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crazynet+Oct 19 2004, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazynet @ Oct 19 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that in a previous thread it was said that there were not B6 servers on steam. They are using some other system that they are using. Even then you have to remember that not everyone is in the US or what other country that you are in. A 8-10 player server with only 80 people over all located in the forums would probably lead to a decent average. Now for large server testing yes this would not be good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn [ +Comprox ] Me, Myself, I and that nub with 2 posts is not 'many' Just supporting the whole idea of preformance over socialness, as clearly postcount is suppose to mean something here <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How that fit in to the conversation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They do use steam because I see B6 servers listed on there. I'm in Europe. When I see b6 servers they have both European and American players on.
<!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Oct 19 2004, 08:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Oct 19 2004, 08:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Alkiller+Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Oct 19 2004, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moomin.+Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moomin. @ Oct 19 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there a list of current PTs anywhere? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 10%, that's pretty good.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 8-10 people Would this skew the balance toward the smaller games?
I agree with the "e-nice ness" arguement of Forlorn, i've seen too many people with a PT icon who did not have the amount of knowledge i'd have expect them to have. I'm talking knowledge here, not skill.
Also from what I hear, there are not enough PT's who dare say "No, this is bad, this wont ever work, change it back". Usually it goes more along the lines of "Well, im not sure, but we could give it a try of course..." Even when said PT's damn well know something's not gonna work. Regen/armor overflow anyone?
Im not talking out of experience, of course, just hear-say.
There's plenty of skilled players (knowledge-wise) who don't make an **s out of themselves when they dont like something, try to find those types.
We've had the "SKILLFULL PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BALANCE THE GAME OMG" arguement before. What we ended up with is the vet program and v3bx, which professional players say sucks even though it was balanced using the vet program.
So yeah.
Also, saying that the only diffrence between pubbers and clanners is skill is absurd. There is also a very definite mental diffrence between the two.
Pubbers enjoy casual play. They have fun with the mod either by just screwing around, or enjoying games with friends or complete strangers. They don't care if they win in most cases as long as they have fun getting there. Casual gamers want rules that make the game fair, and will increase the fun-factor of the game without introducing exploitable or frustrating elements. They often react violently towards playing with clanners because clanners often use tactics which are considered "unfair" or "lame" by them.
Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.
These are only general demographics for the two mindsets. Please don't reply saying OMG THIS ISNT HOW I AM?!?1/1/ becuase these are the most severe representations. Some people are midway between the two mindsets, grabbing behaviors from both. Some clanners (a very small item) enjoy playing compeditivly yet also understand respecting others and the merits of casual play - these are the best of both worlds, and mostly the element that was allowed to remain in the PT program after the vets were split.
Forlorn, I know this is true because you are in the clanner mindset, and the diffrence of MINDSET is what really broke the vet program apart. The vets wanted to balance things towards hardcore clan players, and the PT group wanted to balance things towards casual playing. And I have yet to see a game that managed to make both camps totally happy. This means if we ONLY hire people that are highly skilled for PT, then the casual balance will suffer. Similarly, if we ONLY hire casual players, the professional balance will suffer. Yet the two groups of people posess totally diffrent mindsets and simply can't work together very well. So that's our problem.
If you have an idea of doing somthing that virtually no game developer to this day has managed to do, Forlorn, you are welcome to suggest it. Otherwise, please stop assume you know everything. Your professional attitude is wearing thin.
Other than server strain things it shouldn't matter how many people are playing. The point is too stack 12 Oni in a corner to see if the game crashes...
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've had the "SKILLFULL PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BALANCE THE GAME OMG" arguement before. What we ended up with is the vet program and v3bx, which professional players say sucks even though it was balanced using the vet program.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 19 2004, 09:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 19 2004, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> First of all, having PT's to play on a pubber level is about the worst idea I've ever heard. I do believe I would rather support an idea of this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83342&view=findpost&p=1288845' target='_blank'>calibur</a> makes more sense than to put in PT's for the sake of "The pubber populace." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Surely you realize that a very large majority of NS' playerbase is either not in a clan, or not in a clan of sufficiently high skill level to meet your standards for balance... I understand that it's not possible to balance perfectly for a random assortment of players, but if you alienate them you won't have much of a mod anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One must lose the idea of the existence of a type of player who is known as a "pubber". There is no such thing, because "clanners" are "pubbers" as well.
Therefore by that logic being a "pubber" is a worthless asset, as they have nothing over a "clanner". The difference that people assume between "pubbers" and "clanners" is nothing more than skill. Whereas people find being a "pubber" is having low skill, and being a "clanner" is having high skill.
Which may or may not be true as far as skill goes, but the point is the whole breaking it down between having a "clanner" representation in the PT's and a "pubber" representation is abosoutely stupid on every level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That depends on your definition of "skill," but in the broadest sense, I guess you could say that. Don't get caught up on the semantics though. "Pubber" is simply a term referring to players who are not involved in the clan scene and play exclusively on public servers. A clanner who is playing on a pub server isn't a pubber. The difference between pubbers and clanners isn't just the traditional concept of skill, i.e. aiming, knowledge of the game, etc. The biggest distinction is that of organization; it just can't exist on pub servers to the same extent that it does in scrims because of the nature of the beast.
When I talk about considering pubbers for balance, at least, I'm talking about considering a level of teamwork and coordination that is realistic for a team of players that don't know eachother and more or less were randomly assigned teams at the beginning of the round. Even if they're all skilled vets from their own separate clans, there is an obvious difference between those conditions and that of their scrims, and balance will never operate the same between the two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It makes no sense and the NS community is the <b>ONLY</b> online community to date that follows such backwards, non-rational thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure that's not true, but it makes perfect sense that the NS community feels more strongly about it than most; NS is unique from most FPSes when it comes to the importance placed on teamwork. Most games can get by as a simple deathmatch, which is what most pub players are satisfied with, but NS is different. The game being played in scrims and your average pub servers are so different from one another that you really have to think about them separately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A true capitalistic and smart thinking which goes for the product (not the "niceness" of the process) would only pick PT's on an ability level. Nothing else would matter to those who wish to see NS succeed. Of course, this mentality isn't followed for whatever reason, back from Flayra's original implementation to pick people on both their ability to preform <b>as well as their overall online personality.</b> Do not get me wrong, this isn't stupid, this is smart. It makes sense to pick people to work with that you get along with as well as do a good job.
However, the real problem is that as the NS community has moved from it's initial development which attracted new talent, to more of a finished product that only requires polish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The obvious factor that you are always missing when you make this argument is that PTs are not just there to play against eachother and tell the devs about balance. They are there to work with the devs in various ways throughout the playtesting process, and some people are not as well suited to do the job as others, regardless of skill. Being agreeable and generally a pleasant person helps a whole lot when they have to interact with, you know, actual people. It's more than just playing a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nevertheless, the same standards have applied and remained, and what has happened within the community is that the pool of people to draw from has become rather stagnant, (this happens with almost every online game) but instead of simply picking on ability the original high standards have remained. That being, you need both a nice person with the ability to preform.
However, the ability to preform has evoproated as NS lost it's initial appeal, and instead of drawing on those who know what they are doing the devs seem to be choosing more of path of simply picking those who are nice. The people choosen no longer need to be extraordinary, because that sort of talent cannot be found.
Instead we have people who fit into the "get along with" criteria, except it's more or less just the ability to be "e-cool" and extra sensetive to others around you. Rather than picking those who may fit the job perfectly but not prefer to spend a lot of time conversing or making e-friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know you think that "don't be a jerk" is a ridiculous requirement for PTs, but as I said earlier, interaction with the devs is a key part of a playtester's job. People who lack in people skills need not apply. If anything, it makes more sense to pick people regardless of skill because then you get a little bit of everything, sort of like the target audience that you are trying to balance the game for. I know this argument isn't going to work for you because you have stated many times in the past that this game should only be balanced for the highest tier of players, but there's no sense in beating that dead horse anymore...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Proof of this back-pipe thinking can be seen in the whole "Idle mIRC to become PT/dev/anythinginNScommunity". You must be within a social limit rather a performance one. This is extremely contradictory to the most succesful businesses and coopirations I might add.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you expect the devs to know anything about a player's personality if they aren't at all active in the community?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So in the pattern of the NS team within the past year is to continually accept those who meet the e-status over the e-preformance criterion. The result? Most PT's are among the lower ranking of skill, and the "clanners" who are chosen are NOT among the best competetive players there are, that is for sure. There is exactly one or two PT's I'd consider to be good NSPlayers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I won't attempt to explain why there are so few clanners who meet the "positive attitude" requirement, but if nobody in the higher skill bracket can market themselves as a sociable person then I don't know why you expect them to be selected for a position where the devs have to interact with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Higher skilled players were noobs once as well. They became a better player however, because they had better understanding of the game, and realize how to best exploit the game as well. It's really not complex to figure out. Taking the best players of <b>any</b> existing game is the best way to balance a game, there is no doubt. Whether this game be baseball, magic the gathering, starcraft, it is always the same, rules are never adjusted off the lower brackets of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They were newbies once, but they aren't anymore, and you can't expect them to understand that end of the spectrum anymore. I'm not saying newbies should be PTs, but they can't all be the cream of the crop either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So the bottom line is that higher skilled people will balance the game for everyone. They are not retarded, and have forgotten what it is like to be a bad player.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They'll balance it for everyone, huh? Well, considering that you've been saying in this very post that they should only balance it for the highest scrim, does this mean that you believe that balancing it for the perfect player will also balance it for the random pub? I know you've said exactly that before, just thought I'd clarify. I don't know how you can possibly believe that a game balanced only considering the perfect scenario can still work with a random selection of players of varying skill levels.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, this line of rational thought has been discarded, somewhere in the dev process, because again the whole "e-niceness" requirement took ahold over the "e-preformance" one. As a result, the entire process of getting out new builds, of playtesting, I would even venture the entire process of debugging new builds; has been slowed down by the simple refusal of the obvious, and that is to sacrifice the social category over the ability one. No successful buisness, coorpiration, or country, has become successful by placing socialness over ability. Do not get me wrong, being social is still important, but not to the extent the NS community has gone and you cannot also do such a thing around a dwidling pool of talent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary, any business or <i>corporation</i> understands very well the benefit of an amiable personality. Anyone can be trained for a job. The most skilled worker in the world probably won't ever make it past a job interview if he doesn't know how to respect his higher-ups. People skills are important in every aspect of life, I'm afraid, including online games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And before some wise*** says "Forlorn is just angry he's not a PT", I would like to point out I'm speaking for a <b>much</b> larger population than myself, after all how else does someone like myself know so much about the process?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find it ironic that you claim to be speaking for the majority, even as you say that 90% of players are not skilled enough to be considered for balance...
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Oct 19 2004, 10:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Oct 19 2004, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, the ones who balanced 2.0...
......
Even if you blame the last minute changes for the release imbalances, they only became necessary because the balance of the game had come at the expense of its fun. Take from that what you will.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do you expect the devs to know anything about a player's personality if they aren't at all active in the community?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In what community? I post on the forums at a decent rate, but most of my activity is on IRC channels that are related to the clan community. I bet Flayra would have absolutely no clue who I am, even though I comm for the best clan for the past two CAL seasons and I'm one of the more active Guides. People ask me frequently if I'm a PT, and seem puzzled that I'm not. Not only are the top clans significantly under-represented in the PT group, but the competitive scene gets practically 0 support from the DevTeam, if anything we get blatant hostility from many of them (Hi Scythe and DOOManiac, I appreciated your negative attitudes on IRC). Games don't survive their competitive scene dying off very well, and NS's competitive scene is on life support already. Short-changing the ones that have been the most faithful and playing NS constantly isn't a good way to promote competitive play.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Oct 19 2004, 09:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Oct 19 2004, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do you expect the devs to know anything about a player's personality if they aren't at all active in the community?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In what community? I post on the forums at a decent rate, but most of my activity is on IRC channels that are related to the clan community. I bet Flayra would have absolutely no clue who I am, even though I comm for the best clan for the past two CAL seasons and I'm one of the more active Guides. People ask me frequently if I'm a PT, and seem puzzled that I'm not. Not only are the top clans significantly under-represented in the PT group, but the competitive scene gets practically 0 support from the DevTeam, if anything we get blatant hostility from many of them (Hi Scythe and DOOManiac, I appreciated your negative attitudes on IRC). Games don't survive their competitive scene dying off very well, and NS's competitive scene is on life support already. Short-changing the ones that have been the most faithful and playing NS constantly isn't a good way to promote competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 19 2004, 09:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 19 2004, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I won't attempt to explain why there are so few clanners who meet the "positive attitude" requirement, but if nobody in the higher skill bracket can market themselves as a sociable person then I don't know why you expect them to be selected for a position where the devs have to interact with them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The unsociable usually overshadow the sociable. There are plenty of sociable people in competetive ns.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've had the "SKILLFULL PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BALANCE THE GAME OMG" arguement before. What we ended up with is the vet program and v3bx, which professional players say sucks even though it was balanced using the vet program.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In addition, here is some more truth:
<b>The vets had very little to do with playtesting in 2.0, much less than one would think.</b>
Sounds like bullcrap, right?
Unfortionately, no. I know this because I had takled with some vets of 2.0, some of their fondest memories of playtesting was stacking teams against PT's and continually stomping them.
One vet told me he thinks the reason aliens were so overpowered was because of the continual stacking the vets did on marines half, so the playtesters made changes to appropirate how badily they were losing on their alien halves, due to the skill imbalance.
At first, I was skeptical. Then when I became a vet through the e-mail system, I got access to the old old vet topics from 2.0 beta testing. I also got access to the the beta tester forum. (Different from PT forum)
Turns out there are several topics and posts which complained about the vet stacking. In fact, according to the threads it had become a huge problem, to the point where they had to start using threats to force the teams to be equalized.
( Just to dievate from the main point for just a second, notice if you will that there never was truly a "skilled players only" type playtesting, because the 2.0 had PT and vets. So you can't say PT's are nessesary to represent the lower skill brackets of play, because there is nothing to prove that skilled player only testing would be a bad thing. )
It turned out the 2.0 vets were telling the truth. Due to the reason that the PT's and vets did NOT get along, to flayra this gave a bad image of the vets. The PT's to some extent as well. By the end of 2.0 testing, Flayra probably felt like ignoring just about everyone. 2.0 was released rushed, with there being <b>3</b> (I believe) different builds of NS 2.0 and one was selected.
2.0 turned out to be alien biased. The 2.01 that went into the works, believe it or not was not balanced by the PT's or the vets, but I'll get into that in just a second.
In 2.0 the reason vets eventually became apprehensive towards the PT's was because they felt they were being ignored. On top of this you had the best clan in NS at the time (sYn) get banned from the vet playtesting. There is no reason as to why they got the ban, but I'm almost certain it was from Flayra himself (although I'm not entirely certain) and the reason is unknown. At best the rumors I have heard is that sYn made a thread in the vet forums which denounced everything the dev team was doing at the time and got removed for it, because their word did not meet everyone else's. Furthermore you had general hostility towards the vets from almost every PT, much like you might find hostility from bad players and abusive admins on servers. It was because the vets were treated like crap, or a few vets made the PT's hate the vets, but either way they did not get along. By the end of 2.0, I doubt either side considered each other's word seriously. That's not to say there were not some vets who did get along with the PT's, or that some PT's actually respected the vets. The vets that did respect the PT's then are PT's now. I think there are 3 of them.
Anyhow... 2.01 was balanced by one person, a highly respected vet who was in a top clan. He gave Flayra a list of changes over the phone and thus 2.01 was created. 2.01 was also considered one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced version of NS, and it was created by one of the best clanners in the world. This vet also listened to many of the other vets extensively.
So the most balanced version was created by the vets.
Coincidence that the most balanced and one of the most popular version was created by one of the best? Not in my mind...
I will reveal who this person is if I can get permission from him to do so. Most people already know him.
Also, Redford you are wrong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners enjoy casual play, just like pubbers also enjoy games where the kills are close, things are going down to a few final moments, and they are doing everything they can to win ! ~ but that is beside the point,
You have never been a clanner so you cannot possibly speak on behalf of clanners. You do not know what a clanner attititude is.
Clanners have advantages over everyone in terms of gameplay, because they have experienced everything the game has to offer.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 20 2004, 04:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 20 2004, 04:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj`+Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Oct 19 2004, 09:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Redford+Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ Oct 19 2004, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've had the "SKILLFULL PEOPLE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BALANCE THE GAME OMG" arguement before. What we ended up with is the vet program and v3bx, which professional players say sucks even though it was balanced using the vet program.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In addition, here is some more truth:
<b>The vets had very little to do with playtesting in 2.0, much less than one would think.</b>
Sounds like bullcrap, right?
Unfortionately, no. I know this because I had takled with some vets of 2.0, some of their fondest memories of playtesting was stacking teams against PT's and continually stomping them.
One vet told me he thinks the reason aliens were so overpowered was because of the continual stacking the vets did on marines half, so the playtesters made changes to appropirate how badily they were losing on their alien halves, due to the skill imbalance.
At first, I was skeptical. Then when I became a vet through the e-mail system, I got access to the old old vet topics from 2.0 beta testing. I also got access to the the beta tester forum. (Different from PT forum)
Turns out there are several topics and posts which complained about the vet stacking. In fact, according to the threads it had become a huge problem, to the point where they had to start using threats to force the teams to be equalized.
( Just to dievate from the main point for just a second, notice if you will that there never was truly a "skilled players only" type playtesting, because the 2.0 had PT and vets. So you can't say PT's are nessesary to represent the lower skill brackets of play, because there is nothing to prove that skilled player only testing would be a bad thing. )
It turned out the 2.0 vets were telling the truth. Due to the reason that the PT's and vets did NOT get along, to flayra this gave a bad image of the vets. The PT's to some extent as well. By the end of 2.0 testing, Flayra probably felt like ignoring just about everyone. 2.0 was released rushed, with there being <b>3</b> (I believe) different builds of NS 2.0 and one was selected.
2.0 turned out to be alien biased. The 2.01 that went into the works, believe it or not was not balanced by the PT's or the vets, but I'll get into that in just a second.
In 2.0 the reason vets eventually became apprehensive towards the PT's was because they felt they were being ignored. On top of this you had the best clan in NS at the time (sYn) get banned from the vet playtesting. There is no reason as to why they got the ban, but I'm almost certain it was from Flayra himself (although I'm not entirely certain) and the reason is unknown. At best the rumors I have heard is that sYn made a thread in the vet forums which denounced everything the dev team was doing at the time and got removed for it, because their word did not meet everyone else's. Furthermore you had general hostility towards the vets from almost every PT, much like you might find hostility from bad players and abusive admins on servers. It was because the vets were treated like crap, or a few vets made the PT's hate the vets, but either way they did not get along. By the end of 2.0, I doubt either side considered each other's word seriously. That's not to say there were not some vets who did get along with the PT's, or that some PT's actually respected the vets. The vets that did respect the PT's then are PT's now. I think there are 3 of them.
Anyhow... 2.01 was balanced by one person, a highly respected vet who was in a top clan. He gave Flayra a list of changes over the phone and thus 2.01 was created. 2.01 was also considered one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced version of NS, and it was created by one of the best clanners in the world. This vet also listened to many of the other vets extensively.
So the most balanced version was created by the vets.
Coincidence that the most balanced and one of the most popular version was created by one of the best? Not in my mind...
I will reveal who this person is if I can get permission from him to do so. Most people already know him.
Also, Redford you are wrong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners enjoy casual play, just like pubbers also enjoy games where the kills are close, things are going down to a few final moments, and they are doing everything they can to win ! ~ but that is beside the point,
You have never been a clanner so you cannot possibly speak on behalf of clanners. You do not know what a clanner attititude is.
Clanners have advantages over everyone in terms of gameplay, because they have experienced everything the game has to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Oct 19 2004, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Oct 19 2004, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...Even if you blame the last minute changes for the release imbalances, they only became necessary because the balance of the game had come at the expense of its fun. Take from that what you will. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is there to take from that?!?! Define fun and define balance without interchanging the two in terms of one taking away from the other. It is blatantly obvious knowing when people do not know what they are talking about if they put <b>fun</b> in opposition to <b>balance</b> and then make that the root of their argument.
Perhaps getting saturated by the sociality of the forum community somehow makes people more prone to groupthink. There could be skeletons in every single closet of a room filled with closets and yet there would still be fierce claims that no wrong was done.
Lorn <span style='color:gray'>irrelvent </span> right now for some reason I think that you were out a witch hunt against the devs and PT's, and with the last post it seems that you are up set that you were not chosen to move on to PT's after vet abolishment.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but: A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about, B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be, C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there.
<!--QuoteBegin-crazynet+Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crazynet @ Oct 20 2004, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lorn it used to be I would see your name in the forums and it would seem that you knew what you were talking to and un-bias. Right now for some reason I think that you were out a witch hunt against the devs and PT's, and with the last post it seems that you are up set that you were not chosen to move on to PT's after vet abolishment.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but: A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about, B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be, C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are many vets (like me) who tried to do something to help balance 2.1/3.0 by playing and talking in the vet forum. I can hardly think of anything that we sad was an issue (be it a balance issuse or bug) that got fixed so we could continue to work on the game. You don't know how hard it is to balance a game that is broken so that you can't play it, be it from the lag issue, stacking res (double res bug that allowed onos 1:30 into the game), spawning only from one hive even when 2-3 hives are up, tons of fake clans that were let in that didn't do anything. On the last version of the closed beta, most of the issues that prevented us from even playing ns were fixed, followed shortly by the open beta and the close of the vet program. Yes, a lot of us felt ignored by the devs because what we said were the problems where looked at and thrown out the window.
Comments
I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/
I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most.
I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
10%, that's pretty good.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just supporting the whole idea of preformance over socialness, as clearly postcount is suppose to mean something here
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn
[ +Comprox ] Me, Myself, I and that nub with 2 posts is not 'many'
Just supporting the whole idea of preformance over socialness, as clearly postcount is suppose to mean something here
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How that fit in to the conversation?
/EDIT stupid sentence
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn
[ +Comprox ] Me, Myself, I and that nub with 2 posts is not 'many'
Just supporting the whole idea of preformance over socialness, as clearly postcount is suppose to mean something here
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How that fit in to the conversation? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
They do use steam because I see B6 servers listed on there. I'm in Europe. When I see b6 servers they have both European and American players on.
I suppose you could go to the forums members page and organize them by their group, then look for playtester.
Other than that I don't know :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got it, there are about 80. Which is funny because whenever I see the closed b6 servers they only usually have 8-10 players on at most. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10%, that's pretty good.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
8-10 people
Would this skew the balance toward the smaller games?
Ahnteis, thanks for giving some pt input
I'm talking knowledge here, not skill.
Also from what I hear, there are not enough PT's who dare say "No, this is bad, this wont ever work, change it back". Usually it goes more along the lines of "Well, im not sure, but we could give it a try of course..." Even when said PT's damn well know something's not gonna work. Regen/armor overflow anyone?
Im not talking out of experience, of course, just hear-say.
There's plenty of skilled players (knowledge-wise) who don't make an **s out of themselves when they dont like something, try to find those types.
So yeah.
Also, saying that the only diffrence between pubbers and clanners is skill is absurd. There is also a very definite mental diffrence between the two.
Pubbers enjoy casual play. They have fun with the mod either by just screwing around, or enjoying games with friends or complete strangers. They don't care if they win in most cases as long as they have fun getting there. Casual gamers want rules that make the game fair, and will increase the fun-factor of the game without introducing exploitable or frustrating elements. They often react violently towards playing with clanners because clanners often use tactics which are considered "unfair" or "lame" by them.
Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.
These are only general demographics for the two mindsets. Please don't reply saying OMG THIS ISNT HOW I AM?!?1/1/ becuase these are the most severe representations. Some people are midway between the two mindsets, grabbing behaviors from both. Some clanners (a very small item) enjoy playing compeditivly yet also understand respecting others and the merits of casual play - these are the best of both worlds, and mostly the element that was allowed to remain in the PT program after the vets were split.
Forlorn, I know this is true because you are in the clanner mindset, and the diffrence of MINDSET is what really broke the vet program apart. The vets wanted to balance things towards hardcore clan players, and the PT group wanted to balance things towards casual playing. And I have yet to see a game that managed to make both camps totally happy. This means if we ONLY hire people that are highly skilled for PT, then the casual balance will suffer. Similarly, if we ONLY hire casual players, the professional balance will suffer. Yet the two groups of people posess totally diffrent mindsets and simply can't work together very well. So that's our problem.
If you have an idea of doing somthing that virtually no game developer to this day has managed to do, Forlorn, you are welcome to suggest it. Otherwise, please stop assume you know everything. Your professional attitude is wearing thin.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford.
Why? Surely you realize that a very large majority of NS' playerbase is either not in a clan, or not in a clan of sufficiently high skill level to meet your standards for balance... I understand that it's not possible to balance perfectly for a random assortment of players, but if you alienate them you won't have much of a mod anymore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One must lose the idea of the existence of a type of player who is known as a "pubber". There is no such thing, because "clanners" are "pubbers" as well.
Therefore by that logic being a "pubber" is a worthless asset, as they have nothing over a "clanner". The difference that people assume between "pubbers" and "clanners" is nothing more than skill. Whereas people find being a "pubber" is having low skill, and being a "clanner" is having high skill.
Which may or may not be true as far as skill goes, but the point is the whole breaking it down between having a "clanner" representation in the PT's and a "pubber" representation is abosoutely stupid on every level.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That depends on your definition of "skill," but in the broadest sense, I guess you could say that. Don't get caught up on the semantics though. "Pubber" is simply a term referring to players who are not involved in the clan scene and play exclusively on public servers. A clanner who is playing on a pub server isn't a pubber. The difference between pubbers and clanners isn't just the traditional concept of skill, i.e. aiming, knowledge of the game, etc. The biggest distinction is that of organization; it just can't exist on pub servers to the same extent that it does in scrims because of the nature of the beast.
When I talk about considering pubbers for balance, at least, I'm talking about considering a level of teamwork and coordination that is realistic for a team of players that don't know eachother and more or less were randomly assigned teams at the beginning of the round. Even if they're all skilled vets from their own separate clans, there is an obvious difference between those conditions and that of their scrims, and balance will never operate the same between the two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It makes no sense and the NS community is the <b>ONLY</b> online community to date that follows such backwards, non-rational thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure that's not true, but it makes perfect sense that the NS community feels more strongly about it than most; NS is unique from most FPSes when it comes to the importance placed on teamwork. Most games can get by as a simple deathmatch, which is what most pub players are satisfied with, but NS is different. The game being played in scrims and your average pub servers are so different from one another that you really have to think about them separately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A true capitalistic and smart thinking which goes for the product (not the "niceness" of the process) would only pick PT's on an ability level. Nothing else would matter to those who wish to see NS succeed. Of course, this mentality isn't followed for whatever reason, back from Flayra's original implementation to pick people on both their ability to preform <b>as well as their overall online personality.</b>
Do not get me wrong, this isn't stupid, this is smart. It makes sense to pick people to work with that you get along with as well as do a good job.
However, the real problem is that as the NS community has moved from it's initial development which attracted new talent, to more of a finished product that only requires polish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The obvious factor that you are always missing when you make this argument is that PTs are not just there to play against eachother and tell the devs about balance. They are there to work with the devs in various ways throughout the playtesting process, and some people are not as well suited to do the job as others, regardless of skill. Being agreeable and generally a pleasant person helps a whole lot when they have to interact with, you know, actual people. It's more than just playing a game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nevertheless, the same standards have applied and remained, and what has happened within the community is that the pool of people to draw from has become rather stagnant, (this happens with almost every online game) but instead of simply picking on ability the original high standards have remained. That being, you need both a nice person with the ability to preform.
However, the ability to preform has evoproated as NS lost it's initial appeal, and instead of drawing on those who know what they are doing the devs seem to be choosing more of path of simply picking those who are nice. The people choosen no longer need to be extraordinary, because that sort of talent cannot be found.
Instead we have people who fit into the "get along with" criteria, except it's more or less just the ability to be "e-cool" and extra sensetive to others around you. Rather than picking those who may fit the job perfectly but not prefer to spend a lot of time conversing or making e-friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know you think that "don't be a jerk" is a ridiculous requirement for PTs, but as I said earlier, interaction with the devs is a key part of a playtester's job. People who lack in people skills need not apply. If anything, it makes more sense to pick people regardless of skill because then you get a little bit of everything, sort of like the target audience that you are trying to balance the game for. I know this argument isn't going to work for you because you have stated many times in the past that this game should only be balanced for the highest tier of players, but there's no sense in beating that dead horse anymore...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Proof of this back-pipe thinking can be seen in the whole "Idle mIRC to become PT/dev/anythinginNScommunity". You must be within a social limit rather a performance one. This is extremely contradictory to the most succesful businesses and coopirations I might add.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you expect the devs to know anything about a player's personality if they aren't at all active in the community?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So in the pattern of the NS team within the past year is to continually accept those who meet the e-status over the e-preformance criterion. The result? Most PT's are among the lower ranking of skill, and the "clanners" who are chosen are NOT among the best competetive players there are, that is for sure. There is exactly one or two PT's I'd consider to be good NSPlayers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't attempt to explain why there are so few clanners who meet the "positive attitude" requirement, but if nobody in the higher skill bracket can market themselves as a sociable person then I don't know why you expect them to be selected for a position where the devs have to interact with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Higher skilled players were noobs once as well. They became a better player however, because they had better understanding of the game, and realize how to best exploit the game as well. It's really not complex to figure out. Taking the best players of <b>any</b> existing game is the best way to balance a game, there is no doubt. Whether this game be baseball, magic the gathering, starcraft, it is always the same, rules are never adjusted off the lower brackets of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were newbies once, but they aren't anymore, and you can't expect them to understand that end of the spectrum anymore. I'm not saying newbies should be PTs, but they can't all be the cream of the crop either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So the bottom line is that higher skilled people will balance the game for everyone. They are not retarded, and have forgotten what it is like to be a bad player.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They'll balance it for everyone, huh? Well, considering that you've been saying in this very post that they should only balance it for the highest scrim, does this mean that you believe that balancing it for the perfect player will also balance it for the random pub? I know you've said exactly that before, just thought I'd clarify. I don't know how you can possibly believe that a game balanced only considering the perfect scenario can still work with a random selection of players of varying skill levels.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, this line of rational thought has been discarded, somewhere in the dev process, because again the whole "e-niceness" requirement took ahold over the "e-preformance" one. As a result, the entire process of getting out new builds, of playtesting, I would even venture the entire process of debugging new builds; has been slowed down by the simple refusal of the obvious, and that is to sacrifice the social category over the ability one. No successful buisness, coorpiration, or country, has become successful by placing socialness over ability. Do not get me wrong, being social is still important, but not to the extent the NS community has gone and you cannot also do such a thing around a dwidling pool of talent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, any business or <i>corporation</i> understands very well the benefit of an amiable personality. Anyone can be trained for a job. The most skilled worker in the world probably won't ever make it past a job interview if he doesn't know how to respect his higher-ups. People skills are important in every aspect of life, I'm afraid, including online games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And before some wise*** says "Forlorn is just angry he's not a PT", I would like to point out I'm speaking for a <b>much</b> larger population than myself, after all how else does someone like myself know so much about the process?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it ironic that you claim to be speaking for the majority, even as you say that 90% of players are not skilled enough to be considered for balance...
Yeah, the ones who balanced 2.0...
......
Even if you blame the last minute changes for the release imbalances, they only became necessary because the balance of the game had come at the expense of its fun. Take from that what you will.
In what community? I post on the forums at a decent rate, but most of my activity is on IRC channels that are related to the clan community. I bet Flayra would have absolutely no clue who I am, even though I comm for the best clan for the past two CAL seasons and I'm one of the more active Guides. People ask me frequently if I'm a PT, and seem puzzled that I'm not. Not only are the top clans significantly under-represented in the PT group, but the competitive scene gets practically 0 support from the DevTeam, if anything we get blatant hostility from many of them (Hi Scythe and DOOManiac, I appreciated your negative attitudes on IRC). Games don't survive their competitive scene dying off very well, and NS's competitive scene is on life support already. Short-changing the ones that have been the most faithful and playing NS constantly isn't a good way to promote competitive play.
In what community? I post on the forums at a decent rate, but most of my activity is on IRC channels that are related to the clan community. I bet Flayra would have absolutely no clue who I am, even though I comm for the best clan for the past two CAL seasons and I'm one of the more active Guides. People ask me frequently if I'm a PT, and seem puzzled that I'm not. Not only are the top clans significantly under-represented in the PT group, but the competitive scene gets practically 0 support from the DevTeam, if anything we get blatant hostility from many of them (Hi Scythe and DOOManiac, I appreciated your negative attitudes on IRC). Games don't survive their competitive scene dying off very well, and NS's competitive scene is on life support already. Short-changing the ones that have been the most faithful and playing NS constantly isn't a good way to promote competitive play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
The problem has begun.
[edit]
Those who always agree are most often considered sociable and nice persons.
The unsociable usually overshadow the sociable. There are plenty of sociable people in competetive ns.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In addition, here is some more truth:
<b>The vets had very little to do with playtesting in 2.0, much less than one would think.</b>
Sounds like bullcrap, right?
Unfortionately, no. I know this because I had takled with some vets of 2.0, some of their fondest memories of playtesting was stacking teams against PT's and continually stomping them.
One vet told me he thinks the reason aliens were so overpowered was because of the continual stacking the vets did on marines half, so the playtesters made changes to appropirate how badily they were losing on their alien halves, due to the skill imbalance.
At first, I was skeptical. Then when I became a vet through the e-mail system, I got access to the old old vet topics from 2.0 beta testing. I also got access to the the beta tester forum. (Different from PT forum)
Turns out there are several topics and posts which complained about the vet stacking. In fact, according to the threads it had become a huge problem, to the point where they had to start using threats to force the teams to be equalized.
( Just to dievate from the main point for just a second, notice if you will that there never was truly a "skilled players only" type playtesting, because the 2.0 had PT and vets. So you can't say PT's are nessesary to represent the lower skill brackets of play, because there is nothing to prove that skilled player only testing would be a bad thing. )
It turned out the 2.0 vets were telling the truth. Due to the reason that the PT's and vets did NOT get along, to flayra this gave a bad image of the vets. The PT's to some extent as well. By the end of 2.0 testing, Flayra probably felt like ignoring just about everyone. 2.0 was released rushed, with there being <b>3</b> (I believe) different builds of NS 2.0 and one was selected.
2.0 turned out to be alien biased. The 2.01 that went into the works, believe it or not was not balanced by the PT's or the vets, but I'll get into that in just a second.
In 2.0 the reason vets eventually became apprehensive towards the PT's was because they felt they were being ignored. On top of this you had the best clan in NS at the time (sYn) get banned from the vet playtesting. There is no reason as to why they got the ban, but I'm almost certain it was from Flayra himself (although I'm not entirely certain) and the reason is unknown. At best the rumors I have heard is that sYn made a thread in the vet forums which denounced everything the dev team was doing at the time and got removed for it, because their word did not meet everyone else's.
Furthermore you had general hostility towards the vets from almost every PT, much like you might find hostility from bad players and abusive admins on servers. It was because the vets were treated like crap, or a few vets made the PT's hate the vets, but either way they did not get along. By the end of 2.0, I doubt either side considered each other's word seriously. That's not to say there were not some vets who did get along with the PT's, or that some PT's actually respected the vets. The vets that did respect the PT's then are PT's now. I think there are 3 of them.
Anyhow... 2.01 was balanced by one person, a highly respected vet who was in a top clan. He gave Flayra a list of changes over the phone and thus 2.01 was created. 2.01 was also considered one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced version of NS, and it was created by one of the best clanners in the world. This vet also listened to many of the other vets extensively.
So the most balanced version was created by the vets.
Coincidence that the most balanced and one of the most popular version was created by one of the best? Not in my mind...
I will reveal who this person is if I can get permission from him to do so. Most people already know him.
Also, Redford you are wrong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners enjoy casual play, just like pubbers also enjoy games where the kills are close, things are going down to a few final moments, and they are doing everything they can to win ! ~ but that is beside the point,
You have never been a clanner so you cannot possibly speak on behalf of clanners. You do not know what a clanner attititude is.
Clanners have advantages over everyone in terms of gameplay, because they have experienced everything the game has to offer.
So yeah. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vet program that forlorn is talking about is similar to the one that balanced 2.0, not the 2.1 vets that balanced 3.0. Anyone with e-mailing skills could get into the 2.1 program, which skews it dramatically, so your statement falls flat on it's face Redford. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In addition, here is some more truth:
<b>The vets had very little to do with playtesting in 2.0, much less than one would think.</b>
Sounds like bullcrap, right?
Unfortionately, no. I know this because I had takled with some vets of 2.0, some of their fondest memories of playtesting was stacking teams against PT's and continually stomping them.
One vet told me he thinks the reason aliens were so overpowered was because of the continual stacking the vets did on marines half, so the playtesters made changes to appropirate how badily they were losing on their alien halves, due to the skill imbalance.
At first, I was skeptical. Then when I became a vet through the e-mail system, I got access to the old old vet topics from 2.0 beta testing. I also got access to the the beta tester forum. (Different from PT forum)
Turns out there are several topics and posts which complained about the vet stacking. In fact, according to the threads it had become a huge problem, to the point where they had to start using threats to force the teams to be equalized.
( Just to dievate from the main point for just a second, notice if you will that there never was truly a "skilled players only" type playtesting, because the 2.0 had PT and vets. So you can't say PT's are nessesary to represent the lower skill brackets of play, because there is nothing to prove that skilled player only testing would be a bad thing. )
It turned out the 2.0 vets were telling the truth. Due to the reason that the PT's and vets did NOT get along, to flayra this gave a bad image of the vets. The PT's to some extent as well. By the end of 2.0 testing, Flayra probably felt like ignoring just about everyone. 2.0 was released rushed, with there being <b>3</b> (I believe) different builds of NS 2.0 and one was selected.
2.0 turned out to be alien biased. The 2.01 that went into the works, believe it or not was not balanced by the PT's or the vets, but I'll get into that in just a second.
In 2.0 the reason vets eventually became apprehensive towards the PT's was because they felt they were being ignored. On top of this you had the best clan in NS at the time (sYn) get banned from the vet playtesting. There is no reason as to why they got the ban, but I'm almost certain it was from Flayra himself (although I'm not entirely certain) and the reason is unknown. At best the rumors I have heard is that sYn made a thread in the vet forums which denounced everything the dev team was doing at the time and got removed for it, because their word did not meet everyone else's.
Furthermore you had general hostility towards the vets from almost every PT, much like you might find hostility from bad players and abusive admins on servers. It was because the vets were treated like crap, or a few vets made the PT's hate the vets, but either way they did not get along. By the end of 2.0, I doubt either side considered each other's word seriously. That's not to say there were not some vets who did get along with the PT's, or that some PT's actually respected the vets. The vets that did respect the PT's then are PT's now. I think there are 3 of them.
Anyhow... 2.01 was balanced by one person, a highly respected vet who was in a top clan. He gave Flayra a list of changes over the phone and thus 2.01 was created. 2.01 was also considered one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced version of NS, and it was created by one of the best clanners in the world. This vet also listened to many of the other vets extensively.
So the most balanced version was created by the vets.
Coincidence that the most balanced and one of the most popular version was created by one of the best? Not in my mind...
I will reveal who this person is if I can get permission from him to do so. Most people already know him.
Also, Redford you are wrong:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clanners on the other hand, enjoy professional play. They play to win at all costs - nothing else is important. They will do anything to prove themselves superior to their opponenet, which often leaks down into other forums of communication. This creates the well known "Clanner attitude". Clanners will do anything to win. They enjoy playing with people who share their same attitude and are therefore not fodder for the previous points. They want a mod that is balanced only at the highest level of play (which they play on) and do not care if it has rammifications further down the ladder. They also want elements included that can be practiced using skill in order to get better, even if those elements are nearly (or are) engine, game, or bug exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clanners enjoy casual play, just like pubbers also enjoy games where the kills are close, things are going down to a few final moments, and they are doing everything they can to win ! ~ but that is beside the point,
You have never been a clanner so you cannot possibly speak on behalf of clanners. You do not know what a clanner attititude is.
Clanners have advantages over everyone in terms of gameplay, because they have experienced everything the game has to offer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
What is there to take from that?!?! Define fun and define balance without interchanging the two in terms of one taking away from the other. It is blatantly obvious knowing when people do not know what they are talking about if they put <b>fun</b> in opposition to <b>balance</b> and then make that the root of their argument.
Perhaps getting saturated by the sociality of the forum community somehow makes people more prone to groupthink. There could be skeletons in every single closet of a room filled with closets and yet there would still be fierce claims that no wrong was done.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but:
A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about,
B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be,
C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play
Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there.
You made the point that on one release that the changes were made by the leader of one of the best clans. That’s all and good but:
A. You don’t personally know what they were talking about,
B. You don’t know his mindset about how he thought the changes should be,
C. You don’t know if he was considering both sides of the ball, clanning and regular play
Right now regular play IS the life of the game. Odiously clanning isn’t working out to well for the time being. So until you can get the optimizations in for " clanning " its best to have a more "pubbing" side to the game than an organized play. The best buissness is to keep the largest group happy because if you **** them off for a smaller group well you have just lost a lot of players in this since.
To me this has gone out of control, I personally don’t know how any of this is going to change any thing except get Nem O and the other devs against the use of community testing.
At this point if I was Flayra I would just close any testing done by the community. Stop the communication and move on with development in secret.
Ill admit to the fact that I am not in a clan or anything, but I cant see how clan play is the life or death of a game. Yes the clanning community is small... but the general user base is large and still growing.
Its hard enough to go threw and write a program/game to please a lot of people and a lot of different stiles of play. Then when arrogant people come threw and think that they know every thing and how the game should be and all it just ends up **** off the developer. Lorn in your post granted not all of them did it but what it seems to me you said was that a degree of arrogance came about from the Vets, which in turn caused a rift. You cant test a game with a rift in the middle of your testing team… just doesn’t work. You have to cut the problem child and sYk seems to be the one that caused it with the thread so Vets went out. One bad apple can spoil the bunch, and that’s what sounds like happened there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are many vets (like me) who tried to do something to help balance 2.1/3.0 by playing and talking in the vet forum. I can hardly think of anything that we sad was an issue (be it a balance issuse or bug) that got fixed so we could continue to work on the game. You don't know how hard it is to balance a game that is broken so that you can't play it, be it from the lag issue, stacking res (double res bug that allowed onos 1:30 into the game), spawning only from one hive even when 2-3 hives are up, tons of fake clans that were let in that didn't do anything. On the last version of the closed beta, most of the issues that prevented us from even playing ns were fixed, followed shortly by the open beta and the close of the vet program. Yes, a lot of us felt ignored by the devs because what we said were the problems where looked at and thrown out the window.