Kharaa Or Humans, Which Gets Balance Tipped?

the_x5 · October 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">vote opinions</div> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ I&S post on Sept. 30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>My opinion:

Nothing is perfectly balanced, but if I had to choose which side get the balance tipped to:

Kharaa

Why?

If no other reason than the NS trailer. NS is the story of humans and their technology having met their evolutionary match. The Kharaa are not to be nerfed, they have all of the upper hand except that the marines have teamwork and technology that give them a chance to prevail.

The Kharaa are the most perfected and advanced biological organism known. They are a real threat can though a process called natural selection, humanity is at risk of being wiped out by a superior predator.

Is this the end of humans being at the top of the food chain or will they prevail.

If you have nerfed Kharaa then you have no gripping story. Nothing to fear. The point is that they are so equally matched, even when both are doing their very best.
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Since nothing is perfectly balanced, which side you you think should get the ever so slight tip of balance in their favor?

<b>Kharaa or Humans?</b>

It is a popular opinion that the devs have chosen the humans, btw.

Toothy · October 2004

I think the Devs are trying to keep them perfectly balanced, actually.

The point about marines having better teamwork than the aliens would be true if NS were a film. But seeing as humans play the roles of aliens, there will of course be just as much teamwork on aliens as marines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Maveric · October 2004

As a playtester for a similar "Melee vs Ranged" game mod called <a href='http://zpanic.marineeater.co.uk/site/index.php?c=news' target='_blank'>Zombie Panic</a> i'd have to go with the melee side of things; The Kharaa.

Why?

As melee, they are at a continual and distinct disadvantage that they <i><b>must</b></i> run up to the enemy and bash their brains in, bite their limbs off, and gore them into swiss cheeze. However, the ranged aspect can fight well at any distance, as they have... well, the ability to attack at a distance, of course!

Thus:

Ranged - Continual advantage of "free attack". You can attack them with a pistol or HMG at melee and at a huge distance, but you'll still probably put the hurt on them.

Melee - Continual disadvantage of "restricted attack". You need to run up to them to lay the hurt on them, thus you're stuck with that only mode of attack.

Kharaa.

Cypher · October 2004

guys lets make a really popular mod, and then just for fun, tip the balance all the way over to one side and laugh

the_x5 · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cypher- @ Oct 4 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> guys lets make a really popular mod, and then just for fun, tip the balance all the way over to one side and laugh  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Read what I wrote that's not what I was saying.

quote post of yours = off-topic flame

typical_skeleton · October 2004

Toothy, playstyle requires more teamwork on the marine side.

they can't build structures alone (need commander), and are generally weaker than aliens (versus higher lifeforms), which forces them to stick together.

they don't get their own res to spend on upgrades, and have to rely on the commander or teammates to survive.

Cypher · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Oct 4 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cypher- @ Oct 4 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> guys lets make a really popular mod, and then just for fun, tip the balance all the way over to one side and laugh </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Read what I wrote that's not what I was saying.

quote post of yours = off-topic flame  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
you're suggesting that one side gets a little tip of balance shifted towards them, so that they're better than the other side. That's all you're really saying, unless you're trying to say "let's make them both even" in which case you're trying to discuss the equivilent of "let's make ns fun"

Figgy · October 2004

The only problem with trying to make both sides balanced is that it's impossible. I mean you just can't it's proven time after time again that you can't, which is what makes it the best that one team has one advantage over the other team but the other team has an advantage over them. In this case marines have ranged advantage and aliens have melee advantage.

So in other words it will never be fully balanced, thats just how it works when you have two different teams battling it out.

Lumberjack_Wannabe · October 2004

cypher is my hero tbh...

i think there should be a stickied "which side is favored more" thread... since thats what everyones posted during every single release...

im_lost · October 2004

You forgot to mention the fact that balance changes between a pub game and a clan game (even assuming that the teams are of equal skill and the same sized teams).

SmoodCroozn · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 4 2004, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> assuming that the teams are of equal skill  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
And when will this happen? Even on pubs, when those 50-1 vets come, the game becomes vet team for teh win.

The game is awkward. The reason I say awkward is because Ranged attacks are best used for defeding as more shots can be delivered on an incoming unit. Melee attacks are used for attacking on the offensive and gaining territory. The game however, makes the melee defend, while the ranged attack.

I'd say marines have the advantage as most noobs would think of marines as "CS WOOT", and they would totally get owned as a skulk because they don't use evasive tactics. And even if they do play for a while, I have seen some who save for onos or fade and then die, when they could be making hives and rts and letting the better fades or onos players do their job.

Marines should be defined as a teamwork team. Aliens should be described as a divided role team.

I believe it takes more skill to skulk well, because you have more reliance on dodging, tactics, while a good aiming marine can own most anything, even if he does not know dodging, etc.

God_Killer · October 2004

I think no team should have a decent advantage, two teams of perfectly equal players should battle for eternity...

SiDSquishy · October 2004

It should be tipped as it is. Albeit with much better gameplay.

But anyway ya marines win always once a certain level of skill has been passed

niaccurshi · October 2004

If it were to be unbalanced, it should be towards aliens. Marines can have fun losing thanks to ranged weaponry. Khaara can't have fun losing due to lack of them.

ShiverBolt · October 2004

Kaharaa should be able to withstand well equipped marines longer so they dont have to rush then suddenly run away. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> <----running away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

Also a better way of killing annoying pro jpers?

WarningForever · October 2004

Khaara, just cause of MT, damn, that needs a nerf in NS

Cypher · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ShiverBolt @ Oct 4 2004, 10:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Kaharaa should be able to withstand well equipped marines longer so they dont have to rush then suddenly run away. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /> <----running away <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

Also a better way of killing annoying pro jpers?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
you arent <i>suppose</i> to have an easier way to kill "pro" JPers... that's why they're "pro"

mirrodin · October 2004

As the topic starter eloquently stated. The Kharra are the ultimate predator, remember in a simarly named movie (Predator, not NS), It took like an uber-secret seal, MI-6, Rainbow, CT team to beat it. I expect that from a fade. Realisticly speaking the teams should be balanced so that is all ends up resting on skill.

Kharra ftw!

EDIT: And the Governator, I must Govern you all! I'll be back! Next election!

ModChaosControl · October 2004

Several hundred Aliens or Humans threads have been posted, and niether should have tipped balance, since the aliens' attacks are strong, and they do have long range attacks (acid rocket, parasite, gas, spit), now I know the following quote is going to attrack alot of flames so I'll just quote it for you...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think that soon with a few minor alterations, NS will be balanced. In my experiance of over a year, I havent really seen any significant winner. As Flayra said, he doesnt really want any posts saying "Aliens r 2 w33k", and neither do I, or I wouldnt continue developing my bot.
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<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /> The Tribe has spoken. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' />

Invader_Scoot · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Oct 5 2004, 04:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Several hundred Aliens or Humans threads have been posted, and niether should have tipped balance, since the aliens' attacks are strong, and they do have long range attacks (acid rocket, parasite, gas, spit), now I know the following quote is going to attrack alot of flames so I'll just quote it for you...  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Acid Rocket? Parasite? Spit? All those weapons are so weak it's laughable, especially when spit is stronger then acid rocket. A gorge can't even spit much at all before he runs out of energy, then he just becomes a big fat RFK.

Zek · October 2004

If one team had to be better, I'd also say it should be the Kharaa. My reasoning being that the Kharaa require much better teamwork to be successful than the marines do. As long as the marines have a good comm, all they have to do is listen to him and be good at shooting and they're set. The aliens, on the other hand, have to work together all the time because of the lack of a central authority figure. They have to work everything out with one another and coordinate on the fly, which is an extremely difficult task in pubs. A team that can pull it off should be rewarded.

Of course, I don't think one team does have to be noticably stronger, and I'd rather see situation fixed by streamlining the teamwork requirements of aliens rather than making them stronger.

Diablo_fx · October 2004

Kharaa

That_Annoying_Kid · October 2004

I would say the aliens, but then again idealy it is so both sides are balanced so that skill is the deciding factor, not inherint nature of the game

Alkiller · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Oct 4 2004, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If it were to be unbalanced, it should be towards aliens. Marines can have fun losing thanks to ranged weaponry. Khaara can't have fun losing due to lack of them.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
:O

True, it's always fun turtling as marines <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> , but never fun being sieged as aliens <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' />

I totally love abusing emoticons.

Bluee · October 2004

I'm still waiting for Aliens to get Siege Chambers, for those alamoing marines.

Wirhe · October 2004

<span style='color:red'><b>Kharaa</b></span>

For several reasons:
-- Marine res-system > Kharaa res-system.
-- Marine spawn > Kharaa spawn.
-- 1 HMG > 1 onos, when including at least lv1 upgrades.
-- 1 marine > 1 skulk, and with a bit of aim 1 marine > 3 skulks.
-- 1 turret > 1 skulk, whereas 1 marine > 1 OC.

MrRobot · October 2004

i was going to pretty much do what ^above^ said.

1 hmg vs 1 hive onos, onos gets raped( 2 hive depends on the distance between them if its short onos can stomp kill but if its lengthy like most corridors onos tears intill 3 hive where he can get close faster+armour buffage)

zariuszer0 · October 2004

The teams are fairly balanced now. The problem is teamwork. Establishing teamwork is more important for the alien team. With the Marine team, teamwork is just how you play the game. It's implicit, in the fact that building requires teamwork, so it just feels more natural to play that way. Aliens however, have the ability to do a fairly good job on their own. This leads to players soloing more often, and not learning how to properly function as a team.

In terms of individual unit power, i'd say that if one side must have a slight advantage, it should be kharaa, mainly because of the fact that the Marines can seige.

ModChaosControl · October 2004

what I also forgot to mention in the above statement:

it also all depends on teamwork.
Since bots are integrated to use teamwork on both sides, heres what reguarly happens on my test-servers:

<b>RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 and HiveMind 3.4(both aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 (aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs HiveMind 3.4(aliens) = Marines loses.</b>

Both sides have fully intergrated teamwork capabilities, yet the aliens win.
See the repeditiveness?

Alkiller · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Oct 5 2004, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> what I also forgot to mention in the above statement:

it also all depends on teamwork.
Since bots are integrated to use teamwork on both sides, heres what reguarly happens on my test-servers:

<b>RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 and HiveMind 3.4(both aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 (aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs HiveMind 3.4(aliens) = Marines loses.</b>

Both sides have fully intergrated teamwork capabilities, yet the aliens win.
See the repeditiveness?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
That just shows that your alien bot kicks RCBot's marine "rear-end" every game. Better programming, not team biasedness <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

ModChaosControl · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Alkiller @ Oct 5 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ModChaosControl @ Oct 5 2004, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> what I also forgot to mention in the above statement:

it also all depends on teamwork.
Since bots are integrated to use teamwork on both sides, heres what reguarly happens on my test-servers:

<b>RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 and HiveMind 3.4(both aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs WhichBot 0.94 (aliens) = Marines loses.

RCBot v1.3(marines) vs HiveMind 3.4(aliens) = Marines loses.</b>

Both sides have fully intergrated teamwork capabilities, yet the aliens win.
See the repeditiveness? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<b>That just shows that your alien bot kicks RCBot's marine "rear-end" every game. Better programming, not team biasedness <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /></b>  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Lol, thanks, but RCBot has better teamwork skills than my bot or whichbot, and seeing the source code, is programmed better than my bot <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

But then again, rcbot's aiming does suck <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Kharaa Or Humans, Which Gets Balance Tipped?

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