Is Combat Alien Dominance?
Scylla
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18942Members
<div class="IPBDescription">… Or I am wrong?</div> having a own 20 slot server I don’t see very much marine wins … only if marines are much better or alien just make some big mistakes like not healing the hive or getting no web gorge as counter to jetpackers.
Especially with the new Beta 5 it seem to me that alien even got more power. Marines have to deal with a lot of un-counter able threats while aliens always have a counter to marine threats.
1. Xenocide
With xenocide you can deliver a high amount of damage and can gain easy kills. Also you won’t give any experience to the marines. It’s nearly impossible to counter a good xeno-leap. SoF makes the job even easier and if you want be sure you don’t get killed while leaping take Cara. Another plus is even if you don’t kill a marine within the blast area their armour will get highly decreased and they are much easier to kill.
2. The new Uberonos
Onos costs only 4 experience points and so they will show up earlier and they have 5 points left for upgrades or hive abilities. It’s not fun to deal with a Carapace-Redemption-Adrenaline-Celerity-Stomp-Onos. Also carapace is now a very benefiting upgrade for Onos and Redemption got also a boost.
3. Webs
With webs you’re able to secure the hive very easy against jetpacker. So as jetpacker you have to deal with xeno-exploding skulks and focus-aliens while trying to manoeuvre through all these webs. Forget about welding while you are in the hive. Ok the grenade launcher is a good and easy way to get rid of these webs. But even if you get the entire web off as jetpacker with grenade launcher a good web-gorge webs it in some seconds while you have to wait till your grenade launcher is reloaded.
4. Focus
Focus is an easy counter on resuply. A xeno-attack, some spores or after getting hit while fighting an alien and you’re ready for the single-hit-kill with focus. Focus makes also hit&run very effective way getting kills and even if you don’t kill a marine his armour is lost anyways. If your team gets some welders you loose points in offensive or defensive (long life) techs.
5. Marines can’t tech to their max
While alien can get Uber-Skulks, Uber-Lerks, Uber-Fades, Uber-Onos the marines can’t even tech to a HA/HMG/Welder/WU3.
6. Marines cant change their tech tree
Alien are able to react on threats by evolving into the best counter alien life form while marines are stucked in their selected techs.
7. Marines need more teamwork
Alien can operate alone as spore-ing focus-lerk, hit&run focus-fade or as Uber-Onos. And if you operate in groups you will be a nice target for xeno-skulks.
Just my 0.02 EUR.
Especially with the new Beta 5 it seem to me that alien even got more power. Marines have to deal with a lot of un-counter able threats while aliens always have a counter to marine threats.
1. Xenocide
With xenocide you can deliver a high amount of damage and can gain easy kills. Also you won’t give any experience to the marines. It’s nearly impossible to counter a good xeno-leap. SoF makes the job even easier and if you want be sure you don’t get killed while leaping take Cara. Another plus is even if you don’t kill a marine within the blast area their armour will get highly decreased and they are much easier to kill.
2. The new Uberonos
Onos costs only 4 experience points and so they will show up earlier and they have 5 points left for upgrades or hive abilities. It’s not fun to deal with a Carapace-Redemption-Adrenaline-Celerity-Stomp-Onos. Also carapace is now a very benefiting upgrade for Onos and Redemption got also a boost.
3. Webs
With webs you’re able to secure the hive very easy against jetpacker. So as jetpacker you have to deal with xeno-exploding skulks and focus-aliens while trying to manoeuvre through all these webs. Forget about welding while you are in the hive. Ok the grenade launcher is a good and easy way to get rid of these webs. But even if you get the entire web off as jetpacker with grenade launcher a good web-gorge webs it in some seconds while you have to wait till your grenade launcher is reloaded.
4. Focus
Focus is an easy counter on resuply. A xeno-attack, some spores or after getting hit while fighting an alien and you’re ready for the single-hit-kill with focus. Focus makes also hit&run very effective way getting kills and even if you don’t kill a marine his armour is lost anyways. If your team gets some welders you loose points in offensive or defensive (long life) techs.
5. Marines can’t tech to their max
While alien can get Uber-Skulks, Uber-Lerks, Uber-Fades, Uber-Onos the marines can’t even tech to a HA/HMG/Welder/WU3.
6. Marines cant change their tech tree
Alien are able to react on threats by evolving into the best counter alien life form while marines are stucked in their selected techs.
7. Marines need more teamwork
Alien can operate alone as spore-ing focus-lerk, hit&run focus-fade or as Uber-Onos. And if you operate in groups you will be a nice target for xeno-skulks.
Just my 0.02 EUR.
Comments
Compiling actual number stats may be useful. For what it's worth, I find the games split pretty evenly, in large games if marines can get enough aliens dead and rush the hive before respawn they can generally do a significant amount of damage to the hive before respawn and can have "some" success in spawn-camping. However, if the aliens play smart, and don't just simply rush the marines, or work from co-ordinated rushes, they can have sucess with attacking the chair.
This also depends on what roles people feel like playing, if no-one gorges/welds the chair, then that side generally loses.
So this is a refreshing perspective, but I suspect your conclusions may differ from others perceptions..
... and as i havent played b5 CO either, no comment.
Maybe you have dedicated alien players?
All I know is that jetpacks are almost back to 1.04 maneuverability IIRC.
Compiling actual number stats may be useful..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wrote an own statistics tool pumping the log-files into a SQL-database so I’m able to mine that data. With Beta 4a we had over 80% alien wins. In some weeks I’m able to deliver rationality results for Beta 5.
A reason is for sure that my server has a very large base of regular players who knows how to play as alien. For example currently are 15 regulars on my 20 slot server.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For what it's worth, I find the games split pretty evenly, in large games if marines can get enough aliens dead and rush the hive before respawn they can generally do a significant amount of damage to the hive before respawn and can have "some" success in spawn-camping. However, if the aliens play smart, and don't just simply rush the marines, or work from co-ordinated rushes, they can have sucess with attacking the chair. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my observation it’s not possible to rush the hive and spawn-camp with a good amount of regulars in the alien team. And if you’re able to reach the hive you can be sure they just about to attacking the cc and spawn-camp at the marine start getting their share of experience.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This also depends on what roles people feel like playing, if no-one gorges/welds the chair, then that side generally loses. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I excluded especially these games one side make a big mistake like not welding the command chair or healing the hive or not webbing if there are jetpack marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 10 2004, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->…, but I suspect your conclusions may differ from others perceptions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I try to estimate based on my observations and the conclusions of it and not based on my perceptions. And yea ... the games on my server changed the perceptions of some players out there.
To describe it a typical combat game out of my perspective:
As marine I usually choose Resuply, AU1, WU1 and Shotgun as my first upgrades. The order may different based on my experience gain and threats I face. Afterwards I’m always under-tech’ed to handle alien threats. In the worst cases I have to face an Onos with no upgrades or a Fade with one upgrade and don’t forget xenocide skulks. After Level 5 and same skills the odds are badly against marines.
As alien just don’t rush and gain some experience. If you got 3 experience points just go Fade gain also some experience and afterwards it don’t matter what you do. Get focus and do the hit&run game or go Onos and choose upgrades you like most (carapace and redemption are very effective). The only thing you also need is a web/healing-gorge. If marines don’t have many HA’s you can also go out for the xenocide SoF skulk. That’s sound too easy for me.
What would be a solution for balance?
One interesting idea would be if the alien are the attacking team. This way marines have a clear objective and could go out for offensive techs to kill alien most efficient.
Another way would be a faster and cheaper tech’ing after level 5. Welder should be always possible to select without losing experience points (maybe as default additional to jetpack or HA).
That are only ideas and I know how difficult it is to balance it.
"OMG, a welding heavy team, OMG"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I haven't played many combat games lately because my favourite server provider dropped most of its NS servers but from those ~20 games (on random servers) I played, marines won around 50% (and 99% of those in early game).
So many people just say, "GAR OVERPOWERED, PHAAAAAROAR" when actually the maps create a huge difference in play, I think Combat is quite alright at the moment.
Especially with the new Beta 5 it seem to me that alien even got more power. Marines have to deal with a lot of un-counter able threats while aliens always have a counter to marine threats.
1. Xenocide
With xenocide you can deliver a high amount of damage and can gain easy kills. Also you won’t give any experience to the marines. It’s nearly impossible to counter a good xeno-leap. SoF makes the job even easier and if you want be sure you don’t get killed while leaping take Cara. Another plus is even if you don’t kill a marine within the blast area their armour will get highly decreased and they are much easier to kill.
2. The new Uberonos
Onos costs only 4 experience points and so they will show up earlier and they have 5 points left for upgrades or hive abilities. It’s not fun to deal with a Carapace-Redemption-Adrenaline-Celerity-Stomp-Onos. Also carapace is now a very benefiting upgrade for Onos and Redemption got also a boost.
3. Webs
With webs you’re able to secure the hive very easy against jetpacker. So as jetpacker you have to deal with xeno-exploding skulks and focus-aliens while trying to manoeuvre through all these webs. Forget about welding while you are in the hive. Ok the grenade launcher is a good and easy way to get rid of these webs. But even if you get the entire web off as jetpacker with grenade launcher a good web-gorge webs it in some seconds while you have to wait till your grenade launcher is reloaded.
4. Focus
Focus is an easy counter on resuply. A xeno-attack, some spores or after getting hit while fighting an alien and you’re ready for the single-hit-kill with focus. Focus makes also hit&run very effective way getting kills and even if you don’t kill a marine his armour is lost anyways. If your team gets some welders you loose points in offensive or defensive (long life) techs.
5. Marines can’t tech to their max
While alien can get Uber-Skulks, Uber-Lerks, Uber-Fades, Uber-Onos the marines can’t even tech to a HA/HMG/Welder/WU3.
6. Marines cant change their tech tree
Alien are able to react on threats by evolving into the best counter alien life form while marines are stucked in their selected techs.
7. Marines need more teamwork
Alien can operate alone as spore-ing focus-lerk, hit&run focus-fade or as Uber-Onos. And if you operate in groups you will be a nice target for xeno-skulks.
Just my 0.02 EUR. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do believe clanners who have complained about combat have brought this up for over 6 months now, but with more people catching on there is one thing you need to understand:
<b> Xeno</b> is the easily most dominating attack early on, possible to get since it's right before leap. Remove xeno and marines have a much stronger fighting chance.
[b]webs[b] are the next worst thing about combat, not only because it's the strongest ability in the game... but follows the second strongest ability in the game, xeno.
As long as about 1/4 of your team does this you are invincible:
- Leap
- Xeno (keep doing this till you get another 2 levels)
- Then you go gorge, and get adren.
- Good game marines
When I suggested to Flay combat changes he should havefor b5, I didn't want to fundamentally change the game while allowing skilled marines who focus on slaughtering aliens to gain the advantage by sending aliens back into respawn as skulks.
The uberonos, while much better now, is still easy to kill as he must be away from the hive. Futhermore he's extreamlly suspectable to hmgs, and esp. jetpacks. The onos is good but definately counterable.
Also, focus is really good, but focus is nessesary to kill jetpackers.
And while marines cannot tech to their max, aliens cannot either - they are always stuck at one hive, meaning their armor is only at hive 1 effectiveness.
Marines don't need to change their tech tree, because they weren't diverse to begain with. And really against a good marine team aliens need more teamwork to beat it, it's just once aliens have the teamwork in place marines are never going to win in the current beta.
Changes I'd like to see to combat right now:
- Xeno removed
- Webbing removed
With these removed I'd believe combat would be nearly 100% balanced -
If that STILL isn't enough nerfs to the alien class then what you need to do is make it so marines start with 1 level, so they can push really hard at the start.
This is only because the crappy alien players feed the good marine who then gets jetpack in 6 min and ends the game.
I love to pub on combat, and when I do I always realize it's basically a race against time -
I have to go out there and kill more marines and get to the fade before the pubbers feed the marines unto too much tech for me to handle.
It's guinely harder to win when your entire alien team sucks, as opposed to your entire marine team sucking they can just get GL's or something.
Or if your pubbers are smart and get xeno... then you are all set. But generally as an alien I need to bhop out really fast and get kills before the marines get to lv. 8 and stomp the hive with a jetpack, by the time jetpacks roll around you need fade and focus, and most likely carapace too if they have a lot of HMG's. (or good aim)
When i play marine, I hate it how some guys just camp because they know they are gonna get fed with skulk-exp... I always rush as a marine, otherwise you aren't challenging yourself and aren't getting better as a player, you are simply wasting your time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...And then we remember that this is combat we are talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my oppinion, pub combat is supperior to pub NS because pubbing ns sucks with people who don't know what they are doing. Basically on a pub NS, all you do is get kills, so why not play combat instead, where you can keep your weapons, play with the bigger lifeforms, and be in constant action, and lack of terrible commanders?
Sorry but I've been spoiled by clan play.
edit: Combat owns.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good aim <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> We're talking about the pub where the pistol is used for spraying.
Well gorges without webbing would be a lot more limited,
You still have leap/bite as skulk, which is really good on it's own. The main thing which kills battle skulks IMO is the GL, takes no aim, no talent, and wipes the floor with skulks.
This alone wouldn't be so bad if GL's actually killed everything.
There's nothing worse than seeing a "safety zone" for marines because they walk inside of GL spam. It's downright overpowered and silly.
What should be done is to make it so mirror damage is on for GL users... so that if they spam their team-mates, the GL user recieves all the damage he's dealt to his teammates back to him.
In clan games, the GL is much more limited because it kills not only little skulks, but your teammates armor as well if you spray it casually, which can really screw you over in a fight.
But obviously if GL's hurt your teammates llamas would abuse it. That's why it should hurt the GL user, as then the GL user wouldn't spam his teammates with it (unless he wants to die).
Alien win/loss ratios are HEAVILY dependant on time. A 10 minute game is near always an alien win, just because the marine team has to pull together somewhat and hit that hive HARD. A 25 minute game is near (NEAR! I've seen alien wins with 25 min timers) impossible for aliens to win, unless THEY pull together, ambush, and DEFEND THE HIVE, instead of ramboing off as a fade trying to get in one or two utterly and pathetically useless swipes off on the comm chair. Slivers of a level notwithstanding.
People have to treat b5 entirely different from any other version of NS now, considering the amount of bugfixes that went in. The playing community is slowly starting to realize that, and aliens are winning more and more.
Damn, I missed my 666th post. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I haven't played many combat games lately because my favourite server provider dropped most of its NS servers but from those ~20 games (on random servers) I played, marines won around 50% (and 99% of those in early game). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Atlas,
That’s surly a good point but you must remember it’s not that hard to reach level. 5 in some minutes and imho it’s the point in the game alien start to getting a big advantage. So as marines you have to try to kill the hive within 3-4 minutes.
Even if it the gameplay was meant that kind it isn’t satisfying for both teams. If marines are on the winning streak alien will get spawn-camped early and as marines if you don’t kill the hive in the first 3-4 minutes you have a hard time till the end of the game.
And even as the most rounds are carried out offensive by the marine team on my server i see much more alien wins.
[b]webs[b] are the next worst thing about combat, not only because it's the strongest ability in the game... but follows the second strongest ability in the game, xeno.
As long as about 1/4 of your team does this you are invincible:
- Leap
- Xeno (keep doing this till you get another 2 levels)
- Then you go gorge, and get adren.
- Good game marines
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% ACK.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The uberonos, while much better now, is still easy to kill as he must be away from the hive. Futhermore he's extreamlly suspectable to hmgs, and esp. jetpacks. The onos is good but definately counterable. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I have an easy time as alien if I go out for Onos -> Redemption -> Carapace -> Celertity. With that upgrades I have games I never get killed as Onos because Redemption saves me. And the second upgrade gives me a extra time for Redemption to work and the third Celerity too as I can hide behind a corner covering me from fire while I wait till Redemption works.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Sep 11 2004, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, focus is really good, but focus is nessesary to kill jetpackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That’s rights. You need focus to kill jetpack marines with resuply but it’s a factor to alien dominance.
That’s rights. You need focus to kill jetpack marines with resuply but it’s a factor to alien dominance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd think a good thing would be making jetpacks with resupply have resupply only work once they touch the ground. They'd still hear the medpack/ammo drop when they're in the air, but only get it the instant they touch the ground. That would also simulate real coms who aren't exactly able to put 5 medpacks exactly on a jetpacking marine, especially since you can't put them directly on the marine anymore.
this is the only new trend that i am really seeing... now that you have to evolve eeeevery siiingle tiiime into a higher lifeform... im seing alot less fades and alot more skulks. xenociding leap focus skulks is the new shiznite. and for some god unknown reason, alot of tricked out skulks are somehow superior to alot of tricked out rines w/ lvl 3 hmgs and whatnot.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[edit]
spelling im dumb
Agreed!
Since combat was first released I always knew there is no way to balance combat with unlimited lifeforms (but I am NOT a friend of limited alien lifeforms). Obviously the playtesters never played combat in its extreme. Example given ALL aliens evolve to lerk (or fade or onos or gorge). Think about a whole alien team going fade. They would slaugther the marine team.
Yes, it all depends on the players... if they (aliens) all evolve to higher lifeforms there is no way marines could ever win a game.
I hardly ever get resupply + JP but it's incredible how much most marines rely on that upgrade. It does not only give you full health all the time you get ammo too. But the most important advantage is: When you are under attack you just have to dodge for a second and every alien not using focus can't kill you.
IMHO the time limit should be hard coded to 15 minutes and the marine team should get 11 (!) levels. That way games would not depend on server admins (time limit) and marines would become stronger in late game.
I have played multiple combat games where marines won on the last minute(15-20min servers), and each time it had involved higher lifeforms, jp'er, heavys with gl's, and healing gorges. I recall them like i played them yesterday cause it was so cool. And unfortinally, those kind of victories are getting rarer and rarer :I..
As for the timelimits, i'd vouch for setting it to 15min and not being able to change it. Theres so many servers out there nowdays with +30 min timelimit and i cant stress enough how they suck.
1- Marines get out of spawn and walk in a group. Normally that group would end after a few mindless skulk rushes, but...
2- Wave spawn kicks in and sends another group.
3- Mindless skulks keep feeding the rines.
4- Marines get shotgun at level 3. (they laugh at focus because of the cost)
5- The new crosshair allows even a newbie to kill anything with a shotgun.
6- Marines level up and get JPs 3-6min into the game, due to more mindless rushing.
7- People prefer to play as focus skulks or to go fade and die to 5 marines with shotgun that are walking together due to wave spawn. Respawn, regestate and repeat.
8- If there are webs, a single GL or someone with a welder takes care of the webs.
9(optional)- The admin decides games must be longer and sets the time limit to 20 minutes.
10- GG aliens.
Considering balanced teams, failing to do any of the above (except number 9) results in an alien win. The problem is getting pubbers not to do mindless rushing on the marines. And even if you ambush, how can you kill 3+ marines as a skulk? You need help ambushing and you usually don't get that in pubs.
And where is combat usually played? In pubs. A good alien team stack may win, of course, but the "Pros" prefer to stack marines, since it's easier.
If aliens keep winning on your server, I may go in and see what they do <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->