I've been playing on a server with the following rules:
* 2 sec invulnerability at spawn * 24 player limit (12 a side)
And its been pretty good. I've seen comebacks from just 2 people on a side alive. But if everyones dead its over, which is OKAY. Less egg killing due to the 2sec rule (a single marine no longer sits in hive near beginning, shooting at spawners, but if large portion of enemy team is there, they can still spawn camp, but its over anyway...)
I'd say the #1 factor is the 2 sec invul, followed by the not-32-players limit.
I suggest server admins add the plugin to get the 2 sec invul as soon as possible. It doesnt help anyone win, it jsut makes it nicer.
And secondly, I suggest the NS team stop hardcodeing numbers such as 'number of people that spawn at once' (currently set to 5), and change those into flexible numbers based on player size. It just makes no sense to set a number like that FIXED when the number of players in a given server is NOT FIXED.
I am by no means a good Skulk player. That is WHY I ambush, because I know I cant rush out and attack the enemy because it wouldnt work for me. As I said, all you need to do is get CLOSE and you are set.
Heres a deal. I will play on 10 different servers, all randomly chosen, and play as aliens, record a DEM file of me ambushing as a skulk through the entire game. We shall see how the results turn up. You will also see that I am not a good skulk player. I tend to be a 1:1 person, where I kill a marine and his buddy will often kill me. Sometimes I kill them both.
And what exactly will this prove, again? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, not only with this pit me against formidable and non formidable players, but it should give you a sense of what I am trying to get at here. What point I am trying to prove. Hiding around corners and ceilings CAN be effective!
Ambushing always was effective when the opportunity arises.
What's the opportunity?
The fact that the marines do not know you are there.
Once a marine learns the map a bit and figures out where the skulks ambush from, your ambush effectiveness just got cut drastically. Also, motion tracking drastically cuts effectiveness of ambushes.
Combine that "cut effectiveness" of ambushing with a marine who can actually aim, and there goes your "3 kill ambush".
Ambushing always was effective when the opportunity arises.
What's the opportunity?
The fact that the marines do not know you are there.
Once a marine learns the map a bit and figures out where the skulks ambush from, your ambush effectiveness just got cut drastically. Also, motion tracking drastically cuts effectiveness of ambushes.
Combine that "cut effectiveness" of ambushing with a marine who can actually aim, and there goes your "3 kill ambush". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Add to the fact that they can see you once they have MT and usually when you see them they can see you as well...
Even times when I am waiting around a turn, a vet would jump and turn my direction and get me before I could blink.
The period between the start of the game and the first fade is when aliens are weak. When the aliens get a fade, it almost becomes equal again. The fade is either good enough to boost aliens to the marines level, or if it dies... it's pretty much over.
Recoup, if ambushing really was as good as you say it is, every game would be SMD because with the twin powers of cloaking and silence the aliens would dominate. This, however, is not the case.
How many of you people are having these problems playing 6 on 6 games? In beta 4 it was almost balanced. The aliens had a slight edge. Although I haven't play 6 on 6 in beta 5 I do believe it is now even because of the slight advantage marines got in this version.
As the player count increases from here so does the advantage the marines get. Not just because of res but also because more marines will move in groups.
Sure marines have the early advantage but aleins have the advanatge after the first 5 min. Then it switches back to the marines in long drawn out games. Depending on who can control more res.
Recoup, you're right that ambushing can be effective. So what? Skulks don't always have the opportunity to ambush. If you're on a pub and spend the whole game hiding behind doors to get a better shot at getting a bite in, that's nice, but that isn't the whole game. There's more to ns than a bunch of localized deathmatches.
What happens once the marines get the initiative? By that I mean, what happens once they have gained the upper hand (which in any game larger than 5 v 5 is basically "almost always within the first few minutes barring a large skill advantage on the alien team")? Do you hang out behind a door waiting for them walk by while they are locking down a hive elsewhere? Or do you rush to the attack to prevent them from securing an advantage? How do you ambush a marine resource tower that has two marines guarding it? What do you do when the marines, with their early game combat advantage, are all over the map, and ambush *you* as you leave your hive? When your slow-spawning 1 hive team is getting spawncamped, do you tell yourself that it's okay that the three marines there only need to get 5 lmg bullets into you between them before you move 40 feet, you just need to get more skill and ambush them?
Ambushing is a great technique for skulks that maximizes some of their early game shortcomings, but it's not the only role they have to fill until fades show up to help them, and not one for which they can abdicate all other responsibilities once they fades are there. Skulks need to ambush, but they also need distract, feint, assault, search, and destroy. And currently, they have severe problems with many of those roles because they are so laughably weak against skilled marines.
Any marine team that moves quickly and foils a few alien attempts to contain them (for instance, by successfully predicting a few predictable ambushes) can gain enough of an advantage in the first few minutes that the aliens cannot recover once "their time" to turn the tide arrives. Skulks are so weak in the early game that they could safely receive small buffs without upsetting the balance. And if they can be buffed without upsetting the balance, then there is enough of an inbalance that they probably need it, no?
Telling everyone that they need more skill proves nothing. There's a reason why an alien team with some good players on it has lots of skulks bunnyhopping to their doom. They're desperately trying to regain ground lost to effortlessly expanding marines while some of their teammates stick to a wall somewhere waiting for a lucky kill or two before they're done whoring for one-hive, soon to be no-hive fade.
My first argument was that hiding is effective. My second argument was that if you have no choice but to fight them head on, then dont rush at them. In fact, the most useful tactic for attacking a marine from the front, was dashing up the ceiling and then dropping down. I was rarely ever able to kill a skulk in time for him to reach me when he ran up the wall, onto the ceiling, and back down again, only to bite my balls right off. Painful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and something for CO. When you join late you should get the same xp as the lowest one on your team... than you got at least a lil chance of surviving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if one of the team members went AFK in the beginning of the game? I’m just saying that leveling to the same level as the ‘worst’ (lowest level) player on the team is a bad idea. A better solution would be going to the average level on either the sever or the team you joined. I think that some severs already have this running.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO the best solution would be to make evolve times instantaneous in combat, and make it so that marines spawn without HA/JP (they'd have to re-upgrade it).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don’t think the last half is a good idea. Sometimes when two people are close together and one person selects HA/JP the other person gets it. Imagine the possibilities if people started to exploit this.
Level 3 Weapons Grenade Launcher Resupply Motion Tracking 2 Extra Points to get whatever (Mines wouldn’t be a bad idea) And a Jet Pack that his buddy gave to him.
However making evolve times instantaneous might not be a bad idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And secondly, I suggest the NS team stop hardcodeing numbers such as 'number of people that spawn at once' (currently set to 5), and change those into flexible numbers based on player size. It just makes no sense to set a number like that FIXED when the number of players in a given server is NOT FIXED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very good idea, but I must modify it a bit. It should be fixed on small games where both teams have about 8 or less players, being fixed at 4 or 5. In larger games it shouldn’t be fixed and about 1/3 or 1/2 of the team should spawn in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been playing on a server with the following rules:
* 2 sec invulnerability at spawn * 24 player limit (12 a side)
And its been pretty good. I've seen comebacks from just 2 people on a side alive. But if everyones dead its over, which is OKAY. Less egg killing due to the 2sec rule (a single marine no longer sits in hive near beginning, shooting at spawners, but if large portion of enemy team is there, they can still spawn camp, but its over anyway...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love playing on severs that have the 2 sec invulnerability at spawn. I don’t think that’s enough time to evolve fully (I think it might wear off towards the end and you might get killed), but it is a good amount of time to try to drive the marines out the hive long enough to evolve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the last time, you dont NEED cloak, and you dont NEED silence to be a good ambush skulk! You guys keep wanting the skulk to have the ability to take a full LMG clip and still manage to kill the marine! WAIT AROUND A GOD DANG CORNER! All you have to do is get as CLOSE as possible to the marine, not so that he doesnt SEE you! If he is within biting range, your job has been accomplished, and you are free to bite his chops off. That is ALL you need. Once the marine turns the corner and sees you, bite him! You are in range, so BITE HIM!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where it is true that you don’t need neither cloaking or silence to make a good ambush, it’s also true that you don’t need a fork and knife to eat a steak. Both are accessories which enhances your ability to do the task. The odds of a normal (no upgrades) skulk ambushing the average marine group are not very good, depending on the skill of the marines, the number of them, and your skills too. If you get cloaking the odds are that the marines won’t see you and they’ll just pass on by, but they will hear you when start running, or at the very least when you start attacking. Silence fools most marines, including myself. As long as you can sneak up behind them you can take them out. And of course having both silence and cloaking (and focus if you can) would make you a leet skulk.
What I’m saying is that I think the skulk (and the lerk) needs to beefed up a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My first argument was that hiding is effective. My second argument was that if you have no choice but to fight them head on, then dont rush at them. In fact, the most useful tactic for attacking a marine from the front, was dashing up the ceiling and then dropping down. I was rarely ever able to kill a skulk in time for him to reach me when he ran up the wall, onto the ceiling, and back down again, only to bite my balls right off. Painful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, ouch. That must hurt. Secondly, that would only work on a single marine. If he has friends running would be better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The easiest way to buff the skulk and allow it to become a true ambush unit is to unchain the chambers. This also gives the alien side a much needed boost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really try hard to make them unchain the chambers. This is the third time (I think) that you mentioned it in this topic. As far as this topic is concerned I don’t think this would be a proper solution to the problem. However I still want to try playing a few games with unchained chambers. I think it would great.
Its good to know you put some time behind your post. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yes, it might be weird if location based damage occured, and if you bit a marine between the legs, he hobbled around the rest of the time until he died? Just a thought...
yes, I know that you dont need cloak and silence to make a good ambush, and yes cloak and silence are very good things to have. In fact, if anything, if you are planning on ambushing an enemy squad, having silence and cloak can make you one quite versitile alien! I love to have them, and always succeeded in my ambush attempts when i had cloak or silence. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE The easiest way to buff the skulk and allow it to become a true ambush unit is to unchain the chambers. This also gives the alien side a much needed boost.
You really try hard to make them unchain the chambers. This is the third time (I think) that you mentioned it in this topic. As far as this topic is concerned I don’t think this would be a proper solution to the problem. However I still want to try playing a few games with unchained chambers. I think it would great. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well when I hear about a good idea I want to plug it as much as possible. I think NS is much better with unchained chambers, and I feel confidant that you'll feel the same way after a few games on unchained servers. As for whether it would be a solution to the question at hand, my experiance has been that on unchained servers the marine team can't rambo as effectively, and groups can be taken apart via attrition. DMS forces skulks to be assault units, and in that role they fare quite badly. Giving the alien side the freedom to use sensory and movement without crippling their entire game allows skulks to truely shine.
I didn't read this topic as it was filled to the brim with clichematic arguements, but:
Aliens are not weaker at all but for a minor nerf in fade blink that causes you to come to a halt with zero adren.
But they are still a little bit weak, yes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The further along you get in the game, the higher up the stakes in combat become. By the time you have Level 2 Weapons and Level 2 Armor and Shotguns for the marines, they will have Fades, and by the time you have HMGS and full upgrades, they have Onos's, and this is how it remains for the duration of late-game: high tech, high-class fighting. However, I think skulks in groups can easily dominate marines in groups. When I command on server to server, I find that even if I have a group of 5 marines all nicely put together, some with shotguns, some with LMGs, they can easily face problems when in groups due to the confusion. Skulks are much smaller and can leap about and bite without each other getting in the way frequently. That is why Skulk rushes arent countered as often as marine rushes are.
<!--QuoteBegin-milosis+Sep 6 2004, 02:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (milosis @ Sep 6 2004, 02:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> knockback is reduced so basically <b>if</b> u land one bite, or swipe u can land them all <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are we forgetting how competant marines are now that they're used to not having to compensate for recoil like in CS? *IF* you hit them yeah knockback is slightly reduced.
And don't give me that **** "Skulks should ambush" crap. Most of the work I see skulks doing right now is fending off rushes, you can't ambush a siege or IP rush, you have to tackle it head on. And when you have a team of marines standing at the end of a big hall shooting you, you ain't going to get a bite in for knockback to make a **** of difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And don't give me that **** "Skulks should ambush" crap. Most of the work I see skulks doing right now is fending off rushes, you can't ambush a siege or IP rush, you have to tackle it head on. And when you have a team of marines standing at the end of a big hall shooting you, you ain't going to get a bite in for knockback to make a **** of difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, how'd they get outside your hive again?
I agree, it's pretty hard to win if you camp your hive room the whole game. <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
yeah, it's very easy to come up with comments like that when you're sitting on a forum. It's not hard for marines to get into a room and keep it, the combination of slow alien spawning plus the fact pretty much every marine can aim enough that even the shortest coridoors in NS are far long enough to not have to worry about a skulk getting close to you...
My actual experience over all of these 3.0 versions, including those in the closed beta testing, was that progressively aliens have been able to do less and less in general as skulks. I'm not here spouting off all the counter points that of course always work and are used all the time (damnit, seriously, where is the rolleyes emoticon).
If you're going to sit around dieing to rines, then you're going to lose. Think of a game of chess. Throw all your pawns at the floor, take your rooks and **** on them, now only play with your king. Complain when you lose? Buddy, the steps taken to that point ensured your loss, not the actual event.
Some smart alien play can win a game. One alien cannot just kill everything that comes his way either- trust me, if the rest of the team is failing, you're still going to lose.
W/o knockback, skulks have become quite deadly after closeing a range. So long as the rines are the one's moveing forward rather than skulks commiting some sort of bonzai charge (and any distance whatsoever beyond a few body legnths is just that- suicide at the expence of a few measly bullets), skulks can be quite formadible now. They live long enough to get out at least 2 bites up close most of the time, if not more.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Sep 14 2004, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Sep 14 2004, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> W/o knockback, skulks have become quite deadly after closeing a range. So long as the rines are the one's moveing forward rather than skulks commiting some sort of bonzai charge (and any distance whatsoever beyond a few body legnths is just that- suicide at the expence of a few measly bullets), skulks can be quite formadible now. They live long enough to get out at least 2 bites up close most of the time, if not more. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, most of the time the skulks run or hop at the marines down the hallway, trying to take them headon only to be gunned down in quick successful, which is then followed by 'WTH! h4x!' Skulks were NEVER meant to take a marine on head to head in a hallway or at some distance. Range is always the marine's best advantage, especially early game. If you have skulks camping in opposite corners of an ambush point and a marine comes in, it's guaranteed that he'll die unless the skulks fell asleep or didn't know you had to bite the marines to kill it. If the marine is good he will probably kill one skulk and maybe get some damage in the second, but he will die, even with armor 1 or 2.
Okay, Skulks dont need a buff what so ever. I was teaching my friend how to play NS, and even HE a complete N00b was killing marines. and there were a couple of very very good playesr on. All he did was ambush, and I would bait marines. its amazing what team work can do! specialy as skulks.
I have a hard time beliving skulks need a boost after whitnessing that.
They really don't, it is just as you said, ambushing and teamwork. By the way, having more than one skulk ambushing really helps and parasiting really really helps so don't say I tried ambushing, it doesn't work. If you're making a lot of noise while trying to ambush near a marine, that also defeats the purpose. The pitterpatter will obviously give you away.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> :: pitter patter pitter patter.... silence. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> . . o o O (Hrm... I wonder if there is a skulk ambushing ahead, durrrr)
Everyone is under the constant impression that when I say you ambush, it means you sit in the same damn spot for half an hour waiting for something to happen. You just dont. You trot off and if you hear a marine coming, find a hiding spot before he sees you, and when he approaches, attack him! Its that simple. Its not the same camping everyone does in counter strike where they sit in the same god damned spot for the whole game capping enemies as they come.
But, I also mentioned the steps and strategies you can take if you ARE leading head-on into an enemy line. I guess EVERYONE missed that part. Most people tend to. They just ignore what I say and only find what they like and know how to counter.
This is why skulk rushes win more than marine rushes, because its easier for a skulk to get to point A to point B and easier for them to take out marines when marines are spawning. It just works that way.
<!--QuoteBegin-BattleTech+Sep 7 2004, 12:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BattleTech @ Sep 7 2004, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I havent found the games change too much. They are just as fun as before, and in fact I racked up a rather impressive kill record against very formmidable players. It was a decent 8 kills to 0 deaths in the first 5 minutes or so. Only after we got shotgun rushes by very good players (Mr Gunner is a shotgun master, as well as half the marine team. I have seen them in action since the early parts of this month and last month's games).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously you haven't played alien's in classic and combat in beta 5 from the look's of thing's. The only real benefit the alien's received at all in this version was the ability to regenerate health to armor, which still doesn't help at all because an HMG displace's damage faster than a hive and three dc's for an Onos or Fade. The marine's received a fixed shotgun with sprites, making the shotgun about 25% more deadlier than before if used in the right hands. Also, have you tried Fade at all? I didn't see anywhere in the changelog listing the Fade will not stop instantly when it run's out of energy instead of getting a "partial" boost jump to aid it from death like in beta 4a. I know there's many way's to avoid doing that, but it's inevitable that you're going to run out of energy because of a quick reaction to run away.
Also, the extra 350 carapace on Onos only make's it able to survive an extra 10-15 HMG round's depending on how many hive's they have; not much of a change at all because nobody bothers to get carapace in classic. Even under fire, regen will heal enough HP back to take more than enough HMG rounds. Oh, yeah. Who actually uses redeem in classic on a regular basis? I'm sure none of you do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, people say "Buff the skulks! They need more buffing!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> People say buff the Skulk because a lone marine can take out three charging Skulk's with his LMG and pistol because of the distance gap. Do you know how <i>unfun</i> it is to die instantly from one shotgun or six HMG round's or one grenade from a GL hitting you from six feet away while you're on the roof?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically what people are looking for is a skulk who can take a full clip from an LMG that forces the player to whip out his pistol and waste his ammo trying to finish the skulk off. You dont seem to understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We're looking to stand a chance against a marine at close quarter's. Once the marine's receieve armor 1 and weapon 1, you'll be lucky to even kill one or two marine's if they have a distance gap over three feet or less.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are supposed to wait on ceilings, hide alongside doors, wait behind walls or computers, or wait in vent. I am so sick of seeing people rush marine teams. Its stupid. In fact, if you are smart, you can take out a decent sized team of three marines without taking excessive damage. I am a purely average player and have taken out squads of marines before by myself as a skulk (Even with shotguns)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Obviously you got lucky or the marine's were complete dumbasses if you took out a whole squad of marine's. Honestly, hiding above roof's around corner's doesn't work at all because I'm so well trained in this game that I check every corner and roof everytime I pass through a doorway. Once you get motion tracking, you can predict almost every alien movement by simply hitting the m key to pull out the minimap. I'm not saying ambushing isn't effective, I'm saying it's something that isn't as viable anymore because of marine's who aren't stupid and know how an alien play's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, heres a hint, do not suggest that skulks need beefing, because anything beyond what they have now would be overpowering them. Leave them be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You honestly don't play aliens often, do you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *claps* Bravo! He got pwnt.
About the Cara for ono, you die with armour... No health, but with armour. That extra armour doesn't even stop a shotty shell as well. Nothing like the 'best' chamber to be nullified instantly because of BAD balancing.
Thanks marineanimal for correctly introducing what I like to call "real game scenario"... not this "lets talk on the forums about how it should be" rubbish, but actually how it is.
It's not about camping hives, infact you generally do worse when you're not camping the hive, as you don't hear them get in to position *while you're capping so much res and taking down theirs because if you don't you've lost already*. It's about if a marine or two get into positions like MarineAnimal mark out, that is it...you might as well F4 because unless they're stupid enough to hang around building their SG rush platform for more than 5 minutes they will take your hive out and be barely touched.
There are of course many tactics that can probably get them out from there, and save the situation...but none that can be afforded in the current rushing builds where games are over in under 15 minutes regularly.
<!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Sep 14 2004, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Sep 14 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *claps* Bravo! He got pwnt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to mention you made yourself look like a complete dumba** in that post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll see about getting some ambush spots placed in the areas you marked.
Here you are sirs. Keep in mind that all the spots are not directly kepts on-the-ground. Some can be in the ceilings, but, you must know how effective something as simple as hiding around a corner can be.
"Oh gee, I'm going to walk in that room where the entrance has a little dip from the ceiling that would be too obvious of an ambush spot so I'm not going to check around the entrance of the room I'm walking in because I'm too stupid to think that skulks try to ambush"
Give me a break, ambush spots are so obvious, that it really takes some ingenuity (or just plain marine incompetence) to actually ambush as a skulk.
No Rapier, its NOT obvious for everyone, and your only goal as an ambusher is to get within range of your target BEFORE he opens fire, not a game of hide-and-seek where he doesnt see you.
Comments
* 2 sec invulnerability at spawn
* 24 player limit (12 a side)
And its been pretty good. I've seen comebacks from just 2 people on a side alive. But if everyones dead its over, which is OKAY. Less egg killing due to the 2sec rule (a single marine no longer sits in hive near beginning, shooting at spawners, but if large portion of enemy team is there, they can still spawn camp, but its over anyway...)
I'd say the #1 factor is the 2 sec invul, followed by the not-32-players limit.
I suggest server admins add the plugin to get the 2 sec invul as soon as possible. It doesnt help anyone win, it jsut makes it nicer.
And secondly, I suggest the NS team stop hardcodeing numbers such as 'number of people that spawn at once' (currently set to 5), and change those into flexible numbers based on player size. It just makes no sense to set a number like that FIXED when the number of players in a given server is NOT FIXED.
Heres a deal. I will play on 10 different servers, all randomly chosen, and play as aliens, record a DEM file of me ambushing as a skulk through the entire game. We shall see how the results turn up. You will also see that I am not a good skulk player. I tend to be a 1:1 person, where I kill a marine and his buddy will often kill me. Sometimes I kill them both.
Ambushing always was effective when the opportunity arises.
What's the opportunity?
The fact that the marines do not know you are there.
Once a marine learns the map a bit and figures out where the skulks ambush from, your ambush effectiveness just got cut drastically. Also, motion tracking drastically cuts effectiveness of ambushes.
Combine that "cut effectiveness" of ambushing with a marine who can actually aim, and there goes your "3 kill ambush".
Ambushing always was effective when the opportunity arises.
What's the opportunity?
The fact that the marines do not know you are there.
Once a marine learns the map a bit and figures out where the skulks ambush from, your ambush effectiveness just got cut drastically. Also, motion tracking drastically cuts effectiveness of ambushes.
Combine that "cut effectiveness" of ambushing with a marine who can actually aim, and there goes your "3 kill ambush". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add to the fact that they can see you once they have MT and usually when you see them they can see you as well...
Even times when I am waiting around a turn, a vet would jump and turn my direction and get me before I could blink.
The period between the start of the game and the first fade is when aliens are weak. When the aliens get a fade, it almost becomes equal again. The fade is either good enough to boost aliens to the marines level, or if it dies... it's pretty much over.
In beta 4 it was almost balanced. The aliens had a slight edge. Although I haven't play 6 on 6 in beta 5 I do believe it is now even because of the slight advantage marines got in this version.
As the player count increases from here so does the advantage the marines get. Not just because of res but also because more marines will move in groups.
Sure marines have the early advantage but aleins have the advanatge after the first 5 min. Then it switches back to the marines in long drawn out games. Depending on who can control more res.
What happens once the marines get the initiative? By that I mean, what happens once they have gained the upper hand (which in any game larger than 5 v 5 is basically "almost always within the first few minutes barring a large skill advantage on the alien team")? Do you hang out behind a door waiting for them walk by while they are locking down a hive elsewhere? Or do you rush to the attack to prevent them from securing an advantage? How do you ambush a marine resource tower that has two marines guarding it? What do you do when the marines, with their early game combat advantage, are all over the map, and ambush *you* as you leave your hive? When your slow-spawning 1 hive team is getting spawncamped, do you tell yourself that it's okay that the three marines there only need to get 5 lmg bullets into you between them before you move 40 feet, you just need to get more skill and ambush them?
Ambushing is a great technique for skulks that maximizes some of their early game shortcomings, but it's not the only role they have to fill until fades show up to help them, and not one for which they can abdicate all other responsibilities once they fades are there. Skulks need to ambush, but they also need distract, feint, assault, search, and destroy. And currently, they have severe problems with many of those roles because they are so laughably weak against skilled marines.
Any marine team that moves quickly and foils a few alien attempts to contain them (for instance, by successfully predicting a few predictable ambushes) can gain enough of an advantage in the first few minutes that the aliens cannot recover once "their time" to turn the tide arrives. Skulks are so weak in the early game that they could safely receive small buffs without upsetting the balance. And if they can be buffed without upsetting the balance, then there is enough of an inbalance that they probably need it, no?
Telling everyone that they need more skill proves nothing. There's a reason why an alien team with some good players on it has lots of skulks bunnyhopping to their doom. They're desperately trying to regain ground lost to effortlessly expanding marines while some of their teammates stick to a wall somewhere waiting for a lucky kill or two before they're done whoring for one-hive, soon to be no-hive fade.
What if one of the team members went AFK in the beginning of the game? I’m just saying that leveling to the same level as the ‘worst’ (lowest level) player on the team is a bad idea. A better solution would be going to the average level on either the sever or the team you joined. I think that some severs already have this running.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO the best solution would be to make evolve times instantaneous in combat, and make it so that marines spawn without HA/JP (they'd have to re-upgrade it).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don’t think the last half is a good idea. Sometimes when two people are close together and one person selects HA/JP the other person gets it. Imagine the possibilities if people started to exploit this.
Level 3 Weapons
Grenade Launcher
Resupply
Motion Tracking
2 Extra Points to get whatever (Mines wouldn’t be a bad idea)
And a Jet Pack that his buddy gave to him.
However making evolve times instantaneous might not be a bad idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And secondly, I suggest the NS team stop hardcodeing numbers such as 'number of people that spawn at once' (currently set to 5), and change those into flexible numbers based on player size. It just makes no sense to set a number like that FIXED when the number of players in a given server is NOT FIXED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very good idea, but I must modify it a bit. It should be fixed on small games where both teams have about 8 or less players, being fixed at 4 or 5. In larger games it shouldn’t be fixed and about 1/3 or 1/2 of the team should spawn in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been playing on a server with the following rules:
* 2 sec invulnerability at spawn
* 24 player limit (12 a side)
And its been pretty good. I've seen comebacks from just 2 people on a side alive. But if everyones dead its over, which is OKAY. Less egg killing due to the 2sec rule (a single marine no longer sits in hive near beginning, shooting at spawners, but if large portion of enemy team is there, they can still spawn camp, but its over anyway...)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love playing on severs that have the 2 sec invulnerability at spawn. I don’t think that’s enough time to evolve fully (I think it might wear off towards the end and you might get killed), but it is a good amount of time to try to drive the marines out the hive long enough to evolve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the last time, you dont NEED cloak, and you dont NEED silence to be a good ambush skulk! You guys keep wanting the skulk to have the ability to take a full LMG clip and still manage to kill the marine! WAIT AROUND A GOD DANG CORNER! All you have to do is get as CLOSE as possible to the marine, not so that he doesnt SEE you! If he is within biting range, your job has been accomplished, and you are free to bite his chops off. That is ALL you need. Once the marine turns the corner and sees you, bite him! You are in range, so BITE HIM!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where it is true that you don’t need neither cloaking or silence to make a good ambush, it’s also true that you don’t need a fork and knife to eat a steak. Both are accessories which enhances your ability to do the task. The odds of a normal (no upgrades) skulk ambushing the average marine group are not very good, depending on the skill of the marines, the number of them, and your skills too. If you get cloaking the odds are that the marines won’t see you and they’ll just pass on by, but they will hear you when start running, or at the very least when you start attacking. Silence fools most marines, including myself. As long as you can sneak up behind them you can take them out. And of course having both silence and cloaking (and focus if you can) would make you a leet skulk.
What I’m saying is that I think the skulk (and the lerk) needs to beefed up a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My first argument was that hiding is effective. My second argument was that if you have no choice but to fight them head on, then dont rush at them. In fact, the most useful tactic for attacking a marine from the front, was dashing up the ceiling and then dropping down. I was rarely ever able to kill a skulk in time for him to reach me when he ran up the wall, onto the ceiling, and back down again, only to bite my balls right off. Painful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, ouch. That must hurt. Secondly, that would only work on a single marine. If he has friends running would be better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The easiest way to buff the skulk and allow it to become a true ambush unit is to unchain the chambers. This also gives the alien side a much needed boost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really try hard to make them unchain the chambers. This is the third time (I think) that you mentioned it in this topic. As far as this topic is concerned I don’t think this would be a proper solution to the problem. However I still want to try playing a few games with unchained chambers. I think it would great.
Whew, that’s a lot of typing.
And yes, it might be weird if location based damage occured, and if you bit a marine between the legs, he hobbled around the rest of the time until he died? Just a thought...
yes, I know that you dont need cloak and silence to make a good ambush, and yes cloak and silence are very good things to have. In fact, if anything, if you are planning on ambushing an enemy squad, having silence and cloak can make you one quite versitile alien! I love to have them, and always succeeded in my ambush attempts when i had cloak or silence. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The easiest way to buff the skulk and allow it to become a true ambush unit is to unchain the chambers. This also gives the alien side a much needed boost.
You really try hard to make them unchain the chambers. This is the third time (I think) that you mentioned it in this topic. As far as this topic is concerned I don’t think this would be a proper solution to the problem. However I still want to try playing a few games with unchained chambers. I think it would great.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well when I hear about a good idea I want to plug it as much as possible. I think NS is much better with unchained chambers, and I feel confidant that you'll feel the same way after a few games on unchained servers. As for whether it would be a solution to the question at hand, my experiance has been that on unchained servers the marine team can't rambo as effectively, and groups can be taken apart via attrition. DMS forces skulks to be assault units, and in that role they fare quite badly. Giving the alien side the freedom to use sensory and movement without crippling their entire game allows skulks to truely shine.
Aliens are not weaker at all but for a minor nerf in fade blink that causes you to come to a halt with zero adren.
But they are still a little bit weak, yes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Are we forgetting how competant marines are now that they're used to not having to compensate for recoil like in CS? *IF* you hit them yeah knockback is slightly reduced.
And don't give me that **** "Skulks should ambush" crap. Most of the work I see skulks doing right now is fending off rushes, you can't ambush a siege or IP rush, you have to tackle it head on. And when you have a team of marines standing at the end of a big hall shooting you, you ain't going to get a bite in for knockback to make a **** of difference.
And don't give me that **** "Skulks should ambush" crap. Most of the work I see skulks doing right now is fending off rushes, you can't ambush a siege or IP rush, you have to tackle it head on. And when you have a team of marines standing at the end of a big hall shooting you, you ain't going to get a bite in for knockback to make a **** of difference.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, how'd they get outside your hive again?
I agree, it's pretty hard to win if you camp your hive room the whole game. <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
My actual experience over all of these 3.0 versions, including those in the closed beta testing, was that progressively aliens have been able to do less and less in general as skulks. I'm not here spouting off all the counter points that of course always work and are used all the time (damnit, seriously, where is the rolleyes emoticon).
Some smart alien play can win a game. One alien cannot just kill everything that comes his way either- trust me, if the rest of the team is failing, you're still going to lose.
W/o knockback, skulks have become quite deadly after closeing a range. So long as the rines are the one's moveing forward rather than skulks commiting some sort of bonzai charge (and any distance whatsoever beyond a few body legnths is just that- suicide at the expence of a few measly bullets), skulks can be quite formadible now. They live long enough to get out at least 2 bites up close most of the time, if not more.
I agree, most of the time the skulks run or hop at the marines down the hallway, trying to take them headon only to be gunned down in quick successful, which is then followed by 'WTH! h4x!' Skulks were NEVER meant to take a marine on head to head in a hallway or at some distance. Range is always the marine's best advantage, especially early game. If you have skulks camping in opposite corners of an ambush point and a marine comes in, it's guaranteed that he'll die unless the skulks fell asleep or didn't know you had to bite the marines to kill it. If the marine is good he will probably kill one skulk and maybe get some damage in the second, but he will die, even with armor 1 or 2.
I have a hard time beliving skulks need a boost after whitnessing that.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> :: pitter patter pitter patter.... silence.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> . . o o O (Hrm... I wonder if there is a skulk ambushing ahead, durrrr)
But, I also mentioned the steps and strategies you can take if you ARE leading head-on into an enemy line. I guess EVERYONE missed that part. Most people tend to. They just ignore what I say and only find what they like and know how to counter.
This is why skulk rushes win more than marine rushes, because its easier for a skulk to get to point A to point B and easier for them to take out marines when marines are spawning. It just works that way.
Obviously you haven't played alien's in classic and combat in beta 5 from the look's of thing's. The only real benefit the alien's received at all in this version was the ability to regenerate health to armor, which still doesn't help at all because an HMG displace's damage faster than a hive and three dc's for an Onos or Fade. The marine's received a fixed shotgun with sprites, making the shotgun about 25% more deadlier than before if used in the right hands. Also, have you tried Fade at all? I didn't see anywhere in the changelog listing the Fade will not stop instantly when it run's out of energy instead of getting a "partial" boost jump to aid it from death like in beta 4a. I know there's many way's to avoid doing that, but it's inevitable that you're going to run out of energy because of a quick reaction to run away.
Also, the extra 350 carapace on Onos only make's it able to survive an extra 10-15 HMG round's depending on how many hive's they have; not much of a change at all because nobody bothers to get carapace in classic. Even under fire, regen will heal enough HP back to take more than enough HMG rounds. Oh, yeah. Who actually uses redeem in classic on a regular basis? I'm sure none of you do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, people say "Buff the skulks! They need more buffing!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People say buff the Skulk because a lone marine can take out three charging Skulk's with his LMG and pistol because of the distance gap. Do you know how <i>unfun</i> it is to die instantly from one shotgun or six HMG round's or one grenade from a GL hitting you from six feet away while you're on the roof?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically what people are looking for is a skulk who can take a full clip from an LMG that forces the player to whip out his pistol and waste his ammo trying to finish the skulk off. You dont seem to understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're looking to stand a chance against a marine at close quarter's. Once the marine's receieve armor 1 and weapon 1, you'll be lucky to even kill one or two marine's if they have a distance gap over three feet or less.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are supposed to wait on ceilings, hide alongside doors, wait behind walls or computers, or wait in vent. I am so sick of seeing people rush marine teams. Its stupid. In fact, if you are smart, you can take out a decent sized team of three marines without taking excessive damage. I am a purely average player and have taken out squads of marines before by myself as a skulk (Even with shotguns)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously you got lucky or the marine's were complete dumbasses if you took out a whole squad of marine's. Honestly, hiding above roof's around corner's doesn't work at all because I'm so well trained in this game that I check every corner and roof everytime I pass through a doorway. Once you get motion tracking, you can predict almost every alien movement by simply hitting the m key to pull out the minimap. I'm not saying ambushing isn't effective, I'm saying it's something that isn't as viable anymore because of marine's who aren't stupid and know how an alien play's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, heres a hint, do not suggest that skulks need beefing, because anything beyond what they have now would be overpowering them. Leave them be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You honestly don't play aliens often, do you? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*claps* Bravo! He got pwnt.
About the Cara for ono, you die with armour... No health, but with armour. That extra armour doesn't even stop a shotty shell as well. Nothing like the 'best' chamber to be nullified instantly because of BAD balancing.
<a href='http://turtle.gmedia.us/images/tanith.jpg' target='_blank'>http://turtle.gmedia.us/images/tanith.jpg</a>
Take a look at these pics. Assume the marines are facing the directions of the lines. Maybe I'll make a couple more.
It's not about camping hives, infact you generally do worse when you're not camping the hive, as you don't hear them get in to position *while you're capping so much res and taking down theirs because if you don't you've lost already*. It's about if a marine or two get into positions like MarineAnimal mark out, that is it...you might as well F4 because unless they're stupid enough to hang around building their SG rush platform for more than 5 minutes they will take your hive out and be barely touched.
There are of course many tactics that can probably get them out from there, and save the situation...but none that can be afforded in the current rushing builds where games are over in under 15 minutes regularly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to mention you made yourself look like a complete dumba** in that post. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll see about getting some ambush spots placed in the areas you marked.
Scanning....
Oh, and good old common sense.
"Oh gee, I'm going to walk in that room where the entrance has a little dip from the ceiling that would be too obvious of an ambush spot so I'm not going to check around the entrance of the room I'm walking in because I'm too stupid to think that skulks try to ambush"
Give me a break, ambush spots are so obvious, that it really takes some ingenuity (or just plain marine incompetence) to actually ambush as a skulk.