I think you need to comprehend that, we're all reading your posts pretty well, you just don't like how the majority of people are responding to them. I'm reading your posts and you're saying your the kind of pro-F4 person most of the people(or at least EEK and the other server admins who caused you to post in the first place) who responded would kick right off their servers if they could.
You started this thread with this: " I'm wondering if most people feel the same way I do or if I'm in the minority here." It appears that the majority of the people responding think pro-f4 isn't too cool and yes, you may well be in the minority. Please don't deal with the uncomfort here by accusing others of being unable to read.
Think about it a bit, by justifying your F4 based on the rest of your teams communication, you're admitting you're doing a poor job communicating with them. Communication is a two way street. By F4ing everytime there is are a few new players on a single team you miss the chance to meet some of the fresh blood coming into NS that might just kick **** at FPS but be on the lower end of a learning curve in NS; in a few days they could be kicking your **** all over the place. Don't deny that compaired to other FPS games out there are a fair number of things to learn in NS.
So ditch the "It's my right to F4 if they are mute or stupid!!" thing and keep playing when the going is ruff. Who knows your game might improve just because you're not on the winning team where the living is easy. If just keep telling yourself "we're loosing, I'm out" and pretty soon you'll be on the winning side all the time(how lame is that?). After a while those wins will feel pretty hollow and your team will come to understand you're not too reliable when the going gets ruff. "Better not fall behind, o'l relsan will bail.."
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
I see no point in F4'ing alone. It won't end the game sooner; all it does is get you out of the game. In a situation where I feel a concede is warranted, I simply suggest F4'ing to the team. If they agree, then we F4 to concede the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-billcat+Aug 14 2004, 03:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (billcat @ Aug 14 2004, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you need to comprehend that, we're all reading your posts pretty well... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Once again, billcat, the scenario you mentionned in your very first post was a scenario that I actually mentionned in previous posts and explicitly said that I would NOT F4. So obviously you aren't reading my posts very well. That basically blasts the rest of what you said because I'm not a flake on the battlefield. I even put it in BOLD COLORED letters that I will fight to the end if my team is losing the game even if they aren't as gifted as the other team. Please read my post again kthx.
man, i guess that once they see "f4" witten somewhere they just go crazy and talk about their honor and saying how its lame without reading. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with you complely relsan, if you know that your team doesnt care about the game (ive acually been like that a few times in an off mood) then why should you have to go through 20 minutes of the marines getting every upgrade possible when your team is sitting around ramboing?
If in a game, the commander didnt care about the game and spammed ccs everywhere, would you let the aliens get all 3 hives and all the rts, and wait till everyone gets onos? I hope not.
If they are just newbs that dont know how to play, then f4ing is bad If they are just morons that dont WANT to play, then f4ing should (for the most part) be ok
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Aug 13 2004, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Aug 13 2004, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pro-lifers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In other words - me.
As a nun, she should understand that the child she is carrying hasnt done a thing wrong, and is still important to God. Her life is supposed to be based around the God of the Bible, in which it says "Before I knit you together in your mothers womb, I knew you".
For her to have an abortion would not only be callous, it would be a complete contradiction of everything she believes.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin-|Owen|+Aug 14 2004, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|Owen| @ Aug 14 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> f4 is for nubs who can't die with honor <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Conceding the game is in no way dishonorable.
If you have a team who won't work with you, leave the damned server. You'll either be playing with these people the next match, and having another game to complain about, or playing against them. Hard to have a "tooth and nail" battle against a team you want to f4 from.
Minstrel_KnightThe truth and nothing but the truth...Join Date: 2002-11-21Member: 9562Banned
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Aug 14 2004, 12:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Aug 14 2004, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-|Owen|+Aug 14 2004, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|Owen| @ Aug 14 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> f4 is for nubs who can't die with honor <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Conceding the game is in no way dishonorable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I cannot stand the shame of defeat at NS! I must die and retain my honor! <img src='http://www.nihon-zen.ch/clipart/seppuku_2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 13 2004, 08:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 13 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Um billcat, EEK, dhakbar, tom, G.D.V.L. ...
You guys all need to READ before posting because I never said Pro-F4 means to F4 as soon as you start losing the game. I'll highlight this so hopefully someone will read it.
What I said was that I feel I should be able to F4 if my team is losing the game due to the fact that they refuse to communicate and work as a team, or are simply unaware of the objectives of the game and have put our entire team in a situation that we can't get out of. And that means even a situation that say a better team could get out of but this team cannot because they refuse to communicate and/or do not know enough about the game to turn it around.
Also, if the other team is dragging the game out and refusing to end the game, thats another reason to F4.
If AT LEAST my team is TRYING to communicate and play the game, I'll fight to the bitter end, even if the enemy team is dragging it out.
If AT LEAST the other team is doing their best (clawing, and snatching as some people put it) to win, I'll fight to the bitter end even if my team doesn't have a clue.
That's my stance. Please read it before posting anymore kthx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me tell you a story, Relsan... my server is one of the select few that has friendly fire ON. This dramatically changes gameplay since certain 'tactics' like the 'grenade spam your teammates to kill skulks' are no longer viable. Rushing into a hive that is being sieged can be suicide since a misplaced blast will annihilate you. It all works well and we all have fun.
About two months ago a guy came into the server. Now, we have a big MOTD saying 'FF IS ON'. No, this guy wasn't just ANY player, this guy was the Judge Dredd of players.
About 2 minutes into the game, we see him TK someone. No biggy, it happens, maybe he chewed on a res node too long. A little bit later after that, he TKs someone else. I pop into spectator mode to see what's up. I take a look through his team... and find him merrily munching on the hive. To stop any more damage I quickly banned him. Now, my server also has an irc channel, and it's listed right in the server name. About 30 seconds later he's in IRC bitching that he got banned. I asked him why the hell he was TKing.
His response?
"My teammates were noobs."
"... what?"
"Yeah he has a bugged slot. And my skulkrush was successful and I ate the IP down 4 bars and the game was over."
This player, on his own, decided that it ws his right to determine when the game was over when he wanted. And frankly, I have a hard time determining what the difference between TKing players and a hive 'because they're noobs' and F4ing 'because they're noobs' is.
<!--QuoteBegin-waller+Aug 14 2004, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (waller @ Aug 14 2004, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's a game, it's not supposed to have "honor" it's supposed to be fun, and entertaining. Or have you forgoten that? (spelling of forgoten) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Replace the word honor with Fair play and you would have a far more acurate description of what a great deal of players think.
But still... why is it that honor is such a bad word to use in an online game? i mean... you can speak of honor when you play cards, or tabletop games, right? then why cant you be able to have honor when playing NS, you play with and against human players...
I luckily enough play on a server where it is a banable offence to F4, but even so... apart from the spawncamping scenario where one teams is just there raking up kills, there is no reason to F4.
I think saying 'IM PRO F4' and then blatantly stating you play on a server where there are NO ADMINS AT ALL, NO RULES, AND NO REGULAR PLAYERS takes a lot of credibility out of it. Any halfway decent server:
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I win, since I said it best <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> The only point that anyone is able to attack is the last alien/marine hiding somewhere in the map
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 14 2004, 06:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 14 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think saying 'IM PRO F4' and then blatantly stating you play on a server where there are NO ADMINS AT ALL, NO RULES, AND NO REGULAR PLAYERS takes a lot of credibility out of it. Any halfway decent server:
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I completely agree EEK, I couldn't see myself F4ing on the servers you describe. All I'm saying is that there ARE TIMES when F4 is an understandable choice and that it is not a simple black and white issue. Sounds like you agree with that too.
That's what I mean by Pro-F4. I don't think it means F4ing whenever you start to lose the game. But if I don't get honorable play from my opponents then I'm not gonna become a griever (I wouldn't expend that much energy), I'd just F4.
Even then that's not much of a problem with Scent of Fear and the fact that you need a lot of DCs somewhere to survive as an alien, and that limits the areas you can hide in <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I play a server where it's honorable, and actually expected for you F4 when your team is beyond hope. Dragging the game out with DCs in vents and such is seen as a waste of the other team's time.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think saying 'IM PRO F4' and then blatantly stating you play on a server where there are NO ADMINS AT ALL, NO RULES, AND NO REGULAR PLAYERS takes a lot of credibility out of it. Any halfway decent server:
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~!
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 12 2004, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 12 2004, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry but I'm pro-F4. I think it's silly to play a game that I have obviously lost. I've had games were I was the major influence on the marine or alien team, on the top of charts in kills, always in the thick of the action, seeing the enemies moves and being in place for all the turning point battles that happened in the game, all the way paying my dues by building equipment or donating a hive. But then I see the obvious truth that my team is not as skilled, aware, refusing to even talk on voicecom or simply as interested as the other team in playing the game, and due to some particular objective whether it be a total hive lockdown or a strangulation of resources, its painfully obvious to me that there's no way my team can get out of the mess they're in and there's nothing I can do to help either.
And then you take the other team which of course has no mercy on weaker beings, and in anticipation of victory almost always opts to drag the game out to derive the most pleasure from success as possible by just crowding the battle lines and taking potshots... its just silly to sit there and try to play! For what?
F4, I say and I'm quite vocal about it on servers. But people are like, "Nah thats lame" "Not very honorable" "It's a bannable offense" ITS JUST A GAME! It's not a divine mission. We aren't getting paid for this. It's not a movie of the week. It's just a fricken game. And the ONLY point of a game is to have FUN. If you aren't having fun it's time to do something different and so I think F4 is the best answer.
When my enemies would prefer to see me writhe in prolonged pain rather than kill me quick and my teammates are too inept to do anything about it, there's really no point in suffering through what is supposed to be some pleasure gaming during my free time which I don't have much of. I'm wondering if most people feel the same way I do or if I'm in the minority here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think thats NS's major problem that needs to be fixed. There is a point that you can <b>not</b> recover from (or extreamly, extreamly, extreamly rarely recover from.. like sending a message in a bottle out to sea, then getting a reply in the same bottle, yeah) which kills most of the fun. Once thats fixed, I think NS will be a blast again. Its fun right now but sometimes its just a chore.. which is what we dont want to hear!
I just wanted to end by giving my take on honor/fair play...
*if you don't wanna read the whole thing at least read the highlights to get the basic jist*
Thanks Darkwolf, waller, civilian, Ha.ze and others for reading and understanding my posts.
I know where this whole honor stance comes from. All these guys saying blanket statements like "F4=no honor" and then leaving without bothering to read or contribute to the discussion, probably had similar experiences that I did.
In a nutshell, <b><span style='color:green'>I've been playing online games for over 10 years, and I was clan gaming for about 8 years with friends that I met online and eventually came to meet in real life. We all had a genuine respect for each other and because of that we played games with honor and NEVER bailed on each other when the going got rough.</span></b> That was the greatest thing about being in a clan was the camaraderie and having someone to share honorable victories with and having someone to lean on when we had an honorable defeat. There were plenty of dishonorable clans that we fought against on the servers, in irc, and politically in the leagues. There was no money involved. Often a lot of our fights were simply about honor and fair play.
But one thing that never changed were the pub servers. They were basically the badlands, the place where you encountered cheaters and grievers on a regular basis, and had server admins that ranged from swift justice dealing deputies to out and out cheaters themselves. That's the pubs in just about any mod, and that's something I came to accept.
For a while when I was dealt a bad hand by a cheater it used to make me extremely furious and I'd want to just reach my hand through the computer screen and strangle someone. <span style='color:green'><b>But then it started to effect my life. I'd actually have a bad day because someone cheated me or I lost a game.</b></span> And that’s when I realized I was taking this all too seriously. I realized that this was just supposed to be a game, and that I was supposed to be enjoying myself WITHOUT ruining the enjoyment of others. However I also had to accept that other players wouldn't necessarily abide by that last part of not ruining the enjoyment of others.
<span style='color:green'><b>So I decided for my own sanity that I would have to enjoy the game in a way that cheaters and grievers wouldn't bother me, while at the same time making sure I did not ruin other peoples enjoyment.</b></span> And that's why I have made the rule for myself that if I'm not having fun, I leave the situation. It's just a game, and there’s no reason to ruin my day and have my feelings hurt over a game. After ten years of gaming, clanning, lanning, I'm burnt out on the whole camaraderie and honor thing but I still believe in respecting other peoples fun and so I don't cheat; the game is more rewarding without cheats anyway IMO.
<span style='color:green'><b>But I feel I should still be able to exit a situation if I'm not having fun.</b> </span>Some of you are saying that I am bound by honor to stay and play a game that means absolutely nothing to me but maybe an occasional hour of fun and relaxation. There's no honor in it for me, especially on a pub.
<span style='color:green'><b>And how often do you find a pub game of NS where at least half the people on the server are playing honorably?</b></span> I don't find those very often. Usually I find one or more of several situations: players stacking marines on the pro-marine maps, players stacking aliens on the pro-alien maps, res hoggers, rambos, mid-game unbalancing team switchers, and <span style='color:green'><b>fish barrelers</b></span>. And by <span style='color:green'><b>fish barrelers </b></span>I mean a team of people that are content to put the game on hold by trapping the enemy in a small area of the map and then just pick at them instead of finishing them off; like shooting fish in a barrel. It's very rare when at least one of these offenses is not happening.
Now truthfully, most of these instances aren't enough to make me want to F4 (except for <span style='color:green'><b>fish barreling</b></span>) because it's just a game I have fun as long as I can be of some influence on the game. But as soon as the odds are stacked such that I can't change the situation by myself, and my team refuses to help and feels they should just sit there like lambs to the slaughter, and the enemy team is content to drag out the whole experience as long as possible, well... I'm gonna F4.
<span style='color:green'><b>I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents.</b></span> It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.
i can see where you come from on this, and you put it quite well and im not aiming to bash you or anything, but...
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:green'><b>But I feel I should still be able to exit a situation if I'm not having fun.</b> </span>Some of you are saying that I am bound by honor to stay and play a game that means absolutely nothing to me but maybe an occasional hour of fun and relaxation. There's no honor in it for me, especially on a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that is of course your right, but if you dont like the way they play on a server and cant seem to convince the players to change it... leave the server instead. It looks better, and its a much better statment than F4 quiting to the RR and then sitting and waiting for yourX-team members to get slaughterd.
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:green'><b>I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents.</b></span> It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You cannot expect honor, if you do not show it yourself... and again the above statement applies... dont F4... leave instead.
Just my opinion... i might be wrong <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You could of saved a whole lot of time and summed it all up by just saying
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents. It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But i honestly can't see why people take it so seriously, if the game's at a point where you're thinking about f4ing, you've blatenly lost anyway, there's no point playing on unless you've got some kind of hope, or the marines are making it fun for you, like not siegeing the hive with ha/hmgs in a place you're never ever going to have a chance of getting them. Like walking into the hive with SG's and having ago that way. I know if i'm comming i always never siege the last hive, simply beacuse i think siegeing is a boring way to take down a hive (But it works so....)
SpawnCamping is also a big problem in NS, because of the way it plays with the CC and the hive both being spawn points and the objective for the other team. Weather (spelling?) or not you like it, you're going to be spawn camped, or be forced to f4 in every single game you play if you think about it, with one exeption, the other team is siegeing. In this case it's still not a whole lot more fun, and it all goes towards 1 thing. f4.
IMO the only way to fix this f4 problem would to be fix the the way you spawn at your hive/cc, as someone once said <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cure the Disease, Not the sympoms<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> so this time the CC and the hive spawning points are the Diesease, f4 is the symptom (spelling again...)
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 14 2004, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 14 2004, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think saying 'IM PRO F4' and then blatantly stating you play on a server where there are NO ADMINS AT ALL, NO RULES, AND NO REGULAR PLAYERS takes a lot of credibility out of it. Any halfway decent server:
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> although I agree with you forlorn... it's not always bad to make up rules.. For example I know TFC would be 100x better if nades were severly reduced or removed.. and a league where all maps were played w/o nades would be very popular I'm sure. (or maybe not, but it would still make the game a lot more playable/skill based)
NS is both an RTS and a FPS. The elements of both make it an awesome game unlike any other.
In FPS games, it is generally pretty rude to just quit in the middle of a game. In RTS however, it is expected.
In chess, backgammon, starcraft, or any other game of strategy, people quit when they can't win, so that they can get on with starting another game.
I'm pro-F4 because it's boring - for both sides - when the winning team just plays with their food instead of finishing it off.
I'm a pretty new player (about 8 months in NS), and I play regularly at Fr3ins, OLDF, and Billcats. If the rules forbid F4, I don't do it, but when the rules don't, my team agrees, and the length of the game is way out of proportion to everyone's interest in it, there's no dishonor in crying "uncle" and getting on with a fresh game.
Also, In servers where it is not mandatory to select random team, this discourages team-stacking.
It's the strategy, the teamwork, and yes, the killing all together that make ns so cool. When the game is past the point where that matters, it's just lame.
If you really are in the mood to kill the hive with mines and knives and nothing else, play against bots. They have nothing better to do with their time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Aug 15 2004, 12:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Aug 15 2004, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Aug 14 2004, 01:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Aug 14 2004, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 14 2004, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think saying 'IM PRO F4' and then blatantly stating you play on a server where there are NO ADMINS AT ALL, NO RULES, AND NO REGULAR PLAYERS takes a lot of credibility out of it. Any halfway decent server:
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> although I agree with you forlorn... it's not always bad to make up rules.. For example I know TFC would be 100x better if nades were severly reduced or removed.. and a league where all maps were played w/o nades would be very popular I'm sure. (or maybe not, but it would still make the game a lot more playable/skill based) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But see that rule is different. Banning grenades is different then specifying a rule where /when you can kill someone. That kind of rule is just stupid.
But removing elements from the game, such as grenades from TFC, is completely different type of 'made up rule'.
I don't know how to describe it, but the difference between the rule EEK makes up is different then the rule you made up nada. One is changing <b>how</b> you play, the other is changing what you can play with, and furthermore you are talking about a league, which is entirely different as you agree to sign up to the league. You don't know when you join a server if it's gonna have it's own crappy rules/plugins.
Like on some pub TFC servers, it says in the MOTD "NO BHOPPING OR BAN"
That kind of rules make me laugh. Will I stop bhopping? Hell no. The same goes for a rule against anti-spawn camp. Also if the server were to have say, an invulerability plugin, then I would point out to the server admin it's a bad plugin and leave.
Generally, rules that are built into the game are fine the way they are. It's really annoying to go from server and "play the game we want you to or be kicked/banned!!".
Comments
You started this thread with this:
" I'm wondering if most people feel the same way I do or if I'm in the minority here." It appears that the majority of the people responding think pro-f4 isn't too cool and yes, you may well be in the minority. Please don't deal with the uncomfort here by accusing others of being unable to read.
Think about it a bit, by justifying your F4 based on the rest of your teams communication, you're admitting you're doing a poor job communicating with them. Communication is a two way street. By F4ing everytime there is are a few new players on a single team you miss the chance to meet some of the fresh blood coming into NS that might just kick **** at FPS but be on the lower end of a learning curve in NS; in a few days they could be kicking your **** all over the place. Don't deny that compaired to other FPS games out there are a fair number of things to learn in NS.
So ditch the "It's my right to F4 if they are mute or stupid!!" thing and keep playing when the going is ruff. Who knows your game might improve just because you're not on the winning team where the living is easy. If just keep telling yourself "we're loosing, I'm out" and pretty soon you'll be on the winning side all the time(how lame is that?). After a while those wins will feel pretty hollow and your team will come to understand you're not too reliable when the going gets ruff. "Better not fall behind, o'l relsan will bail.."
And then the're forlorn, doing his best to foster teamplay and goodwill.
Once again, billcat, the scenario you mentionned in your very first post was a scenario that I actually mentionned in previous posts and explicitly said that I would NOT F4. So obviously you aren't reading my posts very well. That basically blasts the rest of what you said because I'm not a flake on the battlefield. I even put it in BOLD COLORED letters that I will fight to the end if my team is losing the game even if they aren't as gifted as the other team. Please read my post again kthx.
I agree with you complely relsan, if you know that your team doesnt care about the game (ive acually been like that a few times in an off mood) then why should you have to go through 20 minutes of the marines getting every upgrade possible when your team is sitting around ramboing?
If in a game, the commander didnt care about the game and spammed ccs everywhere, would you let the aliens get all 3 hives and all the rts, and wait till everyone gets onos? I hope not.
If they are just newbs that dont know how to play, then f4ing is bad
If they are just morons that dont WANT to play, then f4ing should (for the most part) be ok
In other words - me.
As a nun, she should understand that the child she is carrying hasnt done a thing wrong, and is still important to God. Her life is supposed to be based around the God of the Bible, in which it says "Before I knit you together in your mothers womb, I knew you".
For her to have an abortion would not only be callous, it would be a complete contradiction of everything she believes.
Or have you forgoten that? (spelling of forgoten)
Conceding the game is in no way dishonorable.
Conceding the game is in no way dishonorable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cannot stand the shame of defeat at NS! I must die and retain my honor!
<img src='http://www.nihon-zen.ch/clipart/seppuku_2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
You guys all need to READ before posting because I never said Pro-F4 means to F4 as soon as you start losing the game. I'll highlight this so hopefully someone will read it.
What I said was that I feel I should be able to F4 if my team is losing the game due to the fact that they refuse to communicate and work as a team, or are simply unaware of the objectives of the game and have put our entire team in a situation that we can't get out of. And that means even a situation that say a better team could get out of but this team cannot because they refuse to communicate and/or do not know enough about the game to turn it around.
Also, if the other team is dragging the game out and refusing to end the game, thats another reason to F4.
If AT LEAST my team is TRYING to communicate and play the game, I'll fight to the bitter end, even if the enemy team is dragging it out.
If AT LEAST the other team is doing their best (clawing, and snatching as some people put it) to win, I'll fight to the bitter end even if my team doesn't have a clue.
That's my stance. Please read it before posting anymore kthx. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me tell you a story, Relsan... my server is one of the select few that has friendly fire ON. This dramatically changes gameplay since certain 'tactics' like the 'grenade spam your teammates to kill skulks' are no longer viable. Rushing into a hive that is being sieged can be suicide since a misplaced blast will annihilate you. It all works well and we all have fun.
About two months ago a guy came into the server. Now, we have a big MOTD saying 'FF IS ON'. No, this guy wasn't just ANY player, this guy was the Judge Dredd of players.
About 2 minutes into the game, we see him TK someone. No biggy, it happens, maybe he chewed on a res node too long. A little bit later after that, he TKs someone else. I pop into spectator mode to see what's up. I take a look through his team... and find him merrily munching on the hive. To stop any more damage I quickly banned him. Now, my server also has an irc channel, and it's listed right in the server name. About 30 seconds later he's in IRC bitching that he got banned. I asked him why the hell he was TKing.
His response?
"My teammates were noobs."
"... what?"
"Yeah he has a bugged slot. And my skulkrush was successful and I ate the IP down 4 bars and the game was over."
This player, on his own, decided that it ws his right to determine when the game was over when he wanted. And frankly, I have a hard time determining what the difference between TKing players and a hive 'because they're noobs' and F4ing 'because they're noobs' is.
Or have you forgoten that? (spelling of forgoten) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Replace the word honor with Fair play and you would have a far more acurate description of what a great deal of players think.
But still... why is it that honor is such a bad word to use in an online game? i mean... you can speak of honor when you play cards, or tabletop games, right? then why cant you be able to have honor when playing NS, you play with and against human players...
I luckily enough play on a server where it is a banable offence to F4, but even so... apart from the spawncamping scenario where one teams is just there raking up kills, there is no reason to F4.
Wolf out...
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first...
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I completely agree EEK, I couldn't see myself F4ing on the servers you describe. All I'm saying is that there ARE TIMES when F4 is an understandable choice and that it is not a simple black and white issue. Sounds like you agree with that too.
That's what I mean by Pro-F4. I don't think it means F4ing whenever you start to lose the game. But if I don't get honorable play from my opponents then I'm not gonna become a griever (I wouldn't expend that much energy), I'd just F4.
It's a japanese server though.
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~!
And then you take the other team which of course has no mercy on weaker beings, and in anticipation of victory almost always opts to drag the game out to derive the most pleasure from success as possible by just crowding the battle lines and taking potshots... its just silly to sit there and try to play! For what?
F4, I say and I'm quite vocal about it on servers. But people are like, "Nah thats lame" "Not very honorable" "It's a bannable offense" ITS JUST A GAME! It's not a divine mission. We aren't getting paid for this. It's not a movie of the week. It's just a fricken game. And the ONLY point of a game is to have FUN. If you aren't having fun it's time to do something different and so I think F4 is the best answer.
When my enemies would prefer to see me writhe in prolonged pain rather than kill me quick and my teammates are too inept to do anything about it, there's really no point in suffering through what is supposed to be some pleasure gaming during my free time which I don't have much of. I'm wondering if most people feel the same way I do or if I'm in the minority here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think thats NS's major problem that needs to be fixed. There is a point that you can <b>not</b> recover from (or extreamly, extreamly, extreamly rarely recover from.. like sending a message in a bottle out to sea, then getting a reply in the same bottle, yeah) which kills most of the fun. Once thats fixed, I think NS will be a blast again. Its fun right now but sometimes its just a chore.. which is what we dont want to hear!
C'mon B.U.S.! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*if you don't wanna read the whole thing at least read the highlights to get the basic jist*
Thanks Darkwolf, waller, civilian, Ha.ze and others for reading and understanding my posts.
I know where this whole honor stance comes from. All these guys saying blanket statements like "F4=no honor" and then leaving without bothering to read or contribute to the discussion, probably had similar experiences that I did.
In a nutshell, <b><span style='color:green'>I've been playing online games for over 10 years, and I was clan gaming for about 8 years with friends that I met online and eventually came to meet in real life. We all had a genuine respect for each other and because of that we played games with honor and NEVER bailed on each other when the going got rough.</span></b> That was the greatest thing about being in a clan was the camaraderie and having someone to share honorable victories with and having someone to lean on when we had an honorable defeat. There were plenty of dishonorable clans that we fought against on the servers, in irc, and politically in the leagues. There was no money involved. Often a lot of our fights were simply about honor and fair play.
But one thing that never changed were the pub servers. They were basically the badlands, the place where you encountered cheaters and grievers on a regular basis, and had server admins that ranged from swift justice dealing deputies to out and out cheaters themselves. That's the pubs in just about any mod, and that's something I came to accept.
For a while when I was dealt a bad hand by a cheater it used to make me extremely furious and I'd want to just reach my hand through the computer screen and strangle someone. <span style='color:green'><b>But then it started to effect my life. I'd actually have a bad day because someone cheated me or I lost a game.</b></span> And that’s when I realized I was taking this all too seriously. I realized that this was just supposed to be a game, and that I was supposed to be enjoying myself WITHOUT ruining the enjoyment of others. However I also had to accept that other players wouldn't necessarily abide by that last part of not ruining the enjoyment of others.
<span style='color:green'><b>So I decided for my own sanity that I would have to enjoy the game in a way that cheaters and grievers wouldn't bother me, while at the same time making sure I did not ruin other peoples enjoyment.</b></span> And that's why I have made the rule for myself that if I'm not having fun, I leave the situation. It's just a game, and there’s no reason to ruin my day and have my feelings hurt over a game. After ten years of gaming, clanning, lanning, I'm burnt out on the whole camaraderie and honor thing but I still believe in respecting other peoples fun and so I don't cheat; the game is more rewarding without cheats anyway IMO.
<span style='color:green'><b>But I feel I should still be able to exit a situation if I'm not having fun.</b> </span>Some of you are saying that I am bound by honor to stay and play a game that means absolutely nothing to me but maybe an occasional hour of fun and relaxation. There's no honor in it for me, especially on a pub.
<span style='color:green'><b>And how often do you find a pub game of NS where at least half the people on the server are playing honorably?</b></span> I don't find those very often. Usually I find one or more of several situations: players stacking marines on the pro-marine maps, players stacking aliens on the pro-alien maps, res hoggers, rambos, mid-game unbalancing team switchers, and <span style='color:green'><b>fish barrelers</b></span>. And by <span style='color:green'><b>fish barrelers </b></span>I mean a team of people that are content to put the game on hold by trapping the enemy in a small area of the map and then just pick at them instead of finishing them off; like shooting fish in a barrel. It's very rare when at least one of these offenses is not happening.
Now truthfully, most of these instances aren't enough to make me want to F4 (except for <span style='color:green'><b>fish barreling</b></span>) because it's just a game I have fun as long as I can be of some influence on the game. But as soon as the odds are stacked such that I can't change the situation by myself, and my team refuses to help and feels they should just sit there like lambs to the slaughter, and the enemy team is content to drag out the whole experience as long as possible, well... I'm gonna F4.
<span style='color:green'><b>I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents.</b></span> It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:green'><b>But I feel I should still be able to exit a situation if I'm not having fun.</b> </span>Some of you are saying that I am bound by honor to stay and play a game that means absolutely nothing to me but maybe an occasional hour of fun and relaxation. There's no honor in it for me, especially on a pub.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that is of course your right, but if you dont like the way they play on a server and cant seem to convince the players to change it... leave the server instead.
It looks better, and its a much better statment than F4 quiting to the RR and then sitting and waiting for yourX-team members to get slaughterd.
<!--QuoteBegin-relsan+Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Aug 15 2004, 10:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:green'><b>I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents.</b></span> It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cannot expect honor, if you do not show it yourself...
and again the above statement applies... dont F4... leave instead.
Just my opinion... i might be wrong <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't F4 to be dishonorable, I F4 because of dishonorable opponents. It doesn't mean much to me if I get banned for F4 because you'd probably be doing me a favor by helping me weed out the honor less servers. Servers where most of the players are skilled, they like to play the game the right way there's no need to F4 because the games are fast and action packed due to the high level of skill. They are hard to find though and always busy. And usually I only got an hour of time. So, if I get on your server and F4, sorry but I just don't have the time to get caught up in the hype of honor, especially when my opponents rarely are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But i honestly can't see why people take it so seriously, if the game's at a point where you're thinking about f4ing, you've blatenly lost anyway, there's no point playing on unless you've got some kind of hope, or the marines are making it fun for you, like not siegeing the hive with ha/hmgs in a place you're never ever going to have a chance of getting them.
Like walking into the hive with SG's and having ago that way.
I know if i'm comming i always never siege the last hive, simply beacuse i think siegeing is a boring way to take down a hive (But it works so....)
SpawnCamping is also a big problem in NS, because of the way it plays with the CC and the hive both being spawn points and the objective for the other team. Weather (spelling?) or not you like it, you're going to be spawn camped, or be forced to f4 in every single game you play if you think about it, with one exeption, the other team is siegeing. In this case it's still not a whole lot more fun, and it all goes towards 1 thing. f4.
IMO the only way to fix this f4 problem would to be fix the the way you spawn at your hive/cc, as someone once said
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cure the Disease, Not the sympoms<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so this time the CC and the hive spawning points are the Diesease, f4 is the symptom (spelling again...)
~ Waller
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
although I agree with you forlorn... it's not always bad to make up rules.. For example I know TFC would be 100x better if nades were severly reduced or removed.. and a league where all maps were played w/o nades would be very popular I'm sure. (or maybe not, but it would still make the game a lot more playable/skill based)
In FPS games, it is generally pretty rude to just quit in the middle of a game. In RTS however, it is expected.
In chess, backgammon, starcraft, or any other game of strategy, people quit when they can't win, so that they can get on with starting another game.
I'm pro-F4 because it's boring - for both sides - when the winning team just plays with their food instead of finishing it off.
I'm a pretty new player (about 8 months in NS), and I play regularly at Fr3ins, OLDF, and Billcats. If the rules forbid F4, I don't do it, but when the rules don't, my team agrees, and the length of the game is way out of proportion to everyone's interest in it, there's no dishonor in crying "uncle" and getting on with a fresh game.
Also, In servers where it is not mandatory to select random team, this discourages team-stacking.
It's the strategy, the teamwork, and yes, the killing all together that make ns so cool. When the game is past the point where that matters, it's just lame.
If you really are in the mood to kill the hive with mines and knives and nothing else, play against bots. They have nothing better to do with their time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) Never has spawncamping since it's packed with regular players and there are rarely 'outsiders' in it, and they know better.
2) In the rare event there is spawncamping, an admin will be there to fix the problem.
Sure, if you're sitting in the spawn queue and there's 4 onos sitting there taking turns devouring I'd say go ahead and F4. But the reason I never thought of that issue is because I've not seen that behavior since 2.0.
I suggest holding off on the 'F4 4 LYFE' bandwagon and find a good server first... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is wrong with spawn camping?
I just sneak in your hive, and mow down skulks 1 by 1, and as my team caps over the map as well as sits there on their thumbs.
Making up additional rules to the game makes it suck. Stop making the game suck, thanks~! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
although I agree with you forlorn... it's not always bad to make up rules.. For example I know TFC would be 100x better if nades were severly reduced or removed.. and a league where all maps were played w/o nades would be very popular I'm sure. (or maybe not, but it would still make the game a lot more playable/skill based) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But see that rule is different. Banning grenades is different then specifying a rule where /when you can kill someone. That kind of rule is just stupid.
But removing elements from the game, such as grenades from TFC, is completely different type of 'made up rule'.
I don't know how to describe it, but the difference between the rule EEK makes up is different then the rule you made up nada. One is changing <b>how</b> you play, the other is changing what you can play with, and furthermore you are talking about a league, which is entirely different as you agree to sign up to the league. You don't know when you join a server if it's gonna have it's own crappy rules/plugins.
Like on some pub TFC servers, it says in the MOTD "NO BHOPPING OR BAN"
That kind of rules make me laugh. Will I stop bhopping? Hell no. The same goes for a rule against anti-spawn camp. Also if the server were to have say, an invulerability plugin, then I would point out to the server admin it's a bad plugin and leave.
Generally, rules that are built into the game are fine the way they are. It's really annoying to go from server and "play the game we want you to or be kicked/banned!!".