<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 02:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guess you guys can't name any big bad scripts now can you?
Not that I ever thought you could have put any sort of weight behind your argument to begain with... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you even read our arguement?
Its simply "this will allow server operators to choose how to run their server" and expand on it if they so wish.
Our arguement isn't scripts are abusive. You're missing the point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you know me, you know I complain a lot. I recently made a fairly big deal out of bhopping on the community I usually visit? Why? Well I should throw bhop and pistol script in as well. I don't mind people that can bhop or shoot a pistol fast without scripts. Why? Because they're actually doing it. Why don't I like pistol and bhop scripts? Because they're not actually doing it. Any idiot can go get a script, and copy paste it into his config. I tested myself. I found pistol and bhop scripts in all of 30 seonds. Reason 1 why I don't like scripting: The vast majority of 'scripters' have no frickin clue how to script in the first place, and couldn't write a script to save their life. Reason 2. 'Its a convenience.' BS. Don't EVEN give me that. What argument do people have for bhop script? 'It makes timing easier'. Read that sentence. Obviously you can't do it without the script correctly, so why should you be essentially given a skill you don't even have. Same goes for pistol script firing uber fast, but I suppose that won't be fixed as Saltzbad pointed out many ways around it, unless the devs slow the ROF on it. I have respect for people that can bhop without a script - holding down their crouch key, strafing, swinging the mouse around, and hitting jump all at the same time. That takes a decent bit of skill. People that can actually fire a pistol as fast as it can? Hats off to you. But when people obviously CAN'T do this, how do I respect their lack of skill?
Either way, I'm not going to change anyone's opinion. I'll just stick to my script sv_blockscripts 1 server though.
And to quote Forlorn for something not related to scripts in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You have three things in the development of a game like NS:
- Coders (makes it happen)
- Bug testers (looks for game problems)
- Avid competetive players (looks for gameplay problems)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong on one part. Theres four groups. The public community would be number four. I've voice my opinion before that NS should be balanced for the fun of the mass public before the fun of the private clan few.
<!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Jul 10 2004, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Jul 10 2004, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you know me, you know I complain a lot. I recently made a fairly big deal out of bhopping on the community I usually visit? Why? Well I should throw bhop and pistol script in as well. I don't mind people that can bhop or shoot a pistol fast without scripts. Why? Because they're actually doing it. Why don't I like pistol and bhop scripts? Because they're not actually doing it. Any idiot can go get a script, and copy paste it into his config. I tested myself. I found pistol and bhop scripts in all of 30 seonds. Reason 1 why I don't like scripting: The vast majority of 'scripters' have no frickin clue how to script in the first place, and couldn't write a script to save their life. Reason 2. 'Its a convenience.' BS. Don't EVEN give me that. What argument do people have for bhop script? 'It makes timing easier'. Read that sentence. Obviously you can't do it without the script correctly, so why should you be essentially given a skill you don't even have. Same goes for pistol script firing uber fast, but I suppose that won't be fixed as Saltzbad pointed out many ways around it, unless the devs slow the ROF on it. I have respect for people that can bhop without a script - holding down their crouch key, strafing, swinging the mouse around, and hitting jump all at the same time. That takes a decent bit of skill. People that can actually fire a pistol as fast as it can? Hats off to you. But when people obviously CAN'T do this, how do I respect their lack of skill? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you against binding mousewheel to substitute as a script to spam a certain command?
The main problem I have with this cvar is that it will split an already torn community even more, creating more disrespect and unrest about the other side.
In some ways I am actually looking forward to this being implemented. Public players will realize that good players do not rely on scripts to perform in every aspect of the game. I also have a selfish reason, being that those who once accused me of scripting will realize they are wrong.
Perhaps the community will actually be brought together once they realize scripts do no substitute for skill, as other game/mod communities have come to understand.
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Jul 10 2004, 10:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Jul 10 2004, 10:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-OttoDestruct+Jul 10 2004, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Jul 10 2004, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you know me, you know I complain a lot. I recently made a fairly big deal out of bhopping on the community I usually visit? Why? Well I should throw bhop and pistol script in as well. I don't mind people that can bhop or shoot a pistol fast without scripts. Why? Because they're actually doing it. Why don't I like pistol and bhop scripts? Because they're not actually doing it. Any idiot can go get a script, and copy paste it into his config. I tested myself. I found pistol and bhop scripts in all of 30 seonds. Reason 1 why I don't like scripting: The vast majority of 'scripters' have no frickin clue how to script in the first place, and couldn't write a script to save their life. Reason 2. 'Its a convenience.' BS. Don't EVEN give me that. What argument do people have for bhop script? 'It makes timing easier'. Read that sentence. Obviously you can't do it without the script correctly, so why should you be essentially given a skill you don't even have. Same goes for pistol script firing uber fast, but I suppose that won't be fixed as Saltzbad pointed out many ways around it, unless the devs slow the ROF on it. I have respect for people that can bhop without a script - holding down their crouch key, strafing, swinging the mouse around, and hitting jump all at the same time. That takes a decent bit of skill. People that can actually fire a pistol as fast as it can? Hats off to you. But when people obviously CAN'T do this, how do I respect their lack of skill? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you against binding mousewheel to substitute as a script to spam a certain command?
The main problem I have with this cvar is that it will split an already torn community even more, creating more disrespect and unrest about the other side.
In some ways I am actually looking forward to this being implemented. Public players will realize that good players do not rely on scripts to perform in every aspect of the game. I also have a selfish reason, being that those who once accused me of scripting will realize they are wrong.
Perhaps the community will actually be brought together once they realize scripts do no substitute for skill, as other game/mod communities have come to understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I'm against the mousewheel, which is one of the reasons I was saying that ROF should just be lowered on the pistol, but you're right. All this does is divide the community even more. I have no doubt there are good players out there that don't need the scripts, but theres also a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're wrong on one part. Theres four groups. The public community would be number four. I've voice my opinion before that NS should be balanced for the fun of the mass public before the fun of the private clan few. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But public players don't find gameplay problems any better than competetive ones do.
Again, notice, I did not state competetive ones should state "I want you to make my game like this" but they should just be finding problems in gameplay, much like the original vet program was done.
Ever hear of a super succesful card game called Magic the Gathering? How do you think they balance that? With random card players off the street? Nope! They take the best of the best in the world and hold private tournaments with new cards that are being developed and worked on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes I'm against the mousewheel, which is one of the reasons I was saying that ROF should just be lowered on the pistol, but you're right. All this does is divide the community even more. I have no doubt there are good players out there that don't need the scripts, but theres also a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well at least you are consistant. The reason a pistol script and jump script are perfectly fair is preciously because of the mousewheel, macro's, and the fact that you can bind the same command to many keys.
And you are wrong about "a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them."
More often than not, good players can do it without, scripts are simply to streamline their commands much like a race car driver streamlines his car.
Scripting is an issue in every HL mod out there, and while most are benine there are some that alter one's gameplay a fair ammount, in their favor. Anyway, in my opinion as a HL & HL mod player for 5+ years scripting never should have been included.
The problem resides in the fact that scripting is included as part of the engine as default. Wether the Valve team had forethought to see what their userbase could come up with in the form of personal gameplay enhancements via physics engine bugs, weapon recoil and / or reloading processes really has no bearing on the discussion. It's built in the engine, and if the NS dev's decide to have a fully level playing ground <b>code</b> wise by removing scripting - then more power to them. It is not mine, the dev team, nor anyone elses problem if you're running substandard hardware in 2004 on a 5 year old game engine causing you to FPS lag. It is a problem tho if below a certain standard your gameplay is degraded in terms of cpu cycles and code.
Personally I've never bought the reasoning that scripting is a convenience ability, as most of the people who use these types of configs couldn't do it anyway in the first place, and it doesn't seem to hamper them in games without scripting abilities. You can throw +mwheelup / down in this area as well, with the ability to rappidly aggitate the sensor it throws off any sort of physical functional restrictions that other buttons and or keys carry. There is no way short of macroing a mouse button or keyboard key that will produce the ammount of processes per second as the mousewheel.
At any rate, even if the above steps are fixed there will always be a certain percentile of players that have to win by whatever means necessary, and will resort to third party key process macros and such. These tho tend to be an egotistical breed, and relatively easy to avoid if needed (and thankfully so).
Thought I'd check in on how things are going around the forums...
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Jul 8 2004, 06:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Jul 8 2004, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you think, while you're on a bug fixing spree, you could turn lastinv into a client side command? That currently is the only script I use, and it does make playing more bearable since lag isn't as noticable with it. Many players would probably be grateful for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll have to see, im not TOO familiar with the client just yet but I'll probably figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to derail, but I did this before I left as part of the fix for bug #479 (private view only) -- it's in the chunk of code I gave Flay.
What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server <b>option</b> is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server option is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument is that sv_blockscripts is useless to put in the game. There is no reason to ban scripts, even if you do not like scripts because scripts do not change how the game is played nor does it make people overly better nor does it break the game.
In fact, I've still been waiting for a response from someone suggesting why such a server varible is needed, but at best the most response I've recieved towards this question is a flame, while everyone else seems to focus on how it will only be a server option and therefore there is no need to 'care'.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In fact, I've still been waiting for a response from someone suggesting why such a server varible is needed, but at best the most response I've recieved towards this question is a flame, while everyone else seems to focus on how it will only be a server option and therefore there is no need to 'care'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jul 11 2004, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jul 11 2004, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In fact, I've still been waiting for a response from someone suggesting why such a server varible is needed, but at best the most response I've recieved towards this question is a flame, while everyone else seems to focus on how it will only be a server option and therefore there is no need to 'care'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... players are going to get whomped on regardless of scripts
If you are niave to believe that scripting makes you a good player, then you
a.) Obviously have never used a script
b.) Don't know there isn't one script that improves your skill?
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 10:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 10:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dubbilex+Jul 11 2004, 09:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dubbilex @ Jul 11 2004, 09:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 08:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In fact, I've still been waiting for a response from someone suggesting why such a server varible is needed, but at best the most response I've recieved towards this question is a flame, while everyone else seems to focus on how it will only be a server option and therefore there is no need to 'care'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Um... players are going to get whomped on regardless of scripts
If you are niave to believe that scripting makes you a good player, then you
a.) Obviously have never used a script
b.) Don't know there isn't one script that improves your skill? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a) Yes, I have used scripts in the past and no, I don't plan to again.
b) I believe that any script that makes a difficult action EASIER for the person using it is exploitive. Every player should have an equal opportunity - actual personal coordination, you know? I'm sure you have a wonderful selection of scripts in your own repertoire that fit this description.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 02:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guess you guys can't name any big bad scripts now can you?
Not that I ever thought you could have put any sort of weight behind your argument to begain with...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone I know uses some scripts posted by Communist With A Scriptingthread. To be more exact, as far as I know, a pistol script and a bunnyhopping script(triple jump if you prefer).
Now, the pistol script he has, fires 2 bullets each time he uses +attack. I think you must be rather thick not to realise the advantages if this. If think most are familiar with the unstability of your mouse when you try to empty a pistol clip as fast as possible. Assuming you're using mouse1 for +attack, wich most do, pressing it consiquently at a fast rate causes the mouse to get a little shacky, and the player has to put more effort in aiming properly. Now, this event simply doesn't occur with the mentioned pistol script. Simple, since the player only has to press half as many times to empty his clip, resulting in easier aim, and thereby an advantage over non-scripters.
Next script: The bunnyhop script (triple jump whatever). This guy (refering to him as guy, but you can pretty much fit the majority of the NSPlayers in this discription) hasn't exactly the most perfect bunnyhop, admittetly infact. The script allows him to easely perform the timing of the bunnyhop by... well... pressing a single button! Thereby he can focus on other stuff (getting proper bunnyhop movement etc). Now this wouldn't be half as bad, knowing that experienced players use these scripts as well, and thereby (while already being able to bunnyhop properly) be able to put even <b>more</b> effort into movement, attacking and god knows what. Clearly, an advantage once again, over non-scripters.
I'm not completely sure why I bothered posting examples, since I know Forlorn is just out for another scripting flamewar. Facts are: Scripts are exploitable, And yes it really happens, And NO there's no point arguing over people's opinions on scripting.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jul 11 2004, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jul 11 2004, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> or he could just use mousewheel to spam jumps if he wanted to. either way, the jump command is ALWAYS sent more then once, therefore 3jumps is not exploitive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that there are more than 1 way into accomplishing this, doesn't mean it's automatically a normal thing. Alot of people will have a thing against the mousewheel-method as well. But that's not really the point. The point being, scripts can be used to gain an advantage.
<!--QuoteBegin-Travis Dane+Jul 11 2004, 10:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Travis Dane @ Jul 11 2004, 10:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, the pistol script he has, fires 2 bullets each time he uses +attack. I think you must be rather thick not to realise the advantages if this. If think most are familiar with the unstability of your mouse when you try to empty a pistol clip as fast as possible. Assuming you're using mouse1 for +attack, wich most do, pressing it consiquently at a fast rate causes the mouse to get a little shacky, and the player has to put more effort in aiming properly. Now, this event simply doesn't occur with the mentioned pistol script. Simple, since the player only has to press half as many times to empty his clip, resulting in easier aim, and thereby an advantage over non-scripters. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You realize that this exact same thing could be accomplished by binding +attack to a key on the keyboard and hammering it for the pistol? In fact, it would even be better than the script because it wouldn't shake your mouse at all. You could just as easily hit the pistol RoF cap, as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-XP-Cagey+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server option is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Part of it's over the idea that the variable is bad on the whole, and part of it is about the kind of attitude Voogru is putting out. Saying things like "it's time for scripters to die!" isn't cool. Nemisis Zero has edited other forum goers' posts for saying similar things. Bottom line is that Voogru's attitude is really offending people and causing them to lose respect for things. Is that the kind of face the dev team wants to put to the public?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have no doubt there are good players out there that don't need the scripts, but theres also a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry you feel that way, because there is no script that can make a bad player good. The only two scripts that offer any sort of advantage (and some might call unfair), are the pistol script and the bunnyhop script. I personally don't find it hard to come near the max RoF when firing my pistol normally, and I can easily hit the RoF when unloading into a wall. You really don't need a script to accomplish that, but it does offer an advantage to new players. If you can't aim in the first place, than this script does nothing, except you run out of bullets much faster.
And if you give a new player a +3jump script, he won't start playing like a pro. It will actually probably offer no advantage to him since he doesn't know the corresponding skill to go along with it. If you take it away from an experienced player, then his skulk game might become slightly worse, unless he binds +jump to mwheel. If you haven't realized by now, bunnyhopping does not give you any combat advantage, it is simply a tool to get from point A to point B faster. You will probably finding yourself dieing much faster if you try to bhop up to a marine rather than ambushing and baiting.
I am very much against removing the usage of the mousewheel though. This is a feature that comes standard on pretty much every mouse, so you don't get the unfair advantage that (many claim) scripts give you. Almost everyone can bind +jump to mwheel, so they have the tools to bhop just as well as anyone else without having to search for obscure scripts. I'm not sure what people are trying to accomplish arguing against mousewheel usage, but it certainly is not evening the playing field.
<!--QuoteBegin-Edward.r2+Jul 11 2004, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edward.r2 @ Jul 11 2004, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You realize that this exact same thing could be accomplished by binding +attack to a key on the keyboard and hammering it for the pistol? In fact, it would even be better than the script because it wouldn't shake your mouse at all. You could just as easily hit the pistol RoF cap, as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quite true, however you still wouldn't come near the speed you can reach with a script, not to mention the sore fingers (and broken keyboards <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->) you get. Besides of wich, you'll be getting 2 different fire keys, not quite practical.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no, the point is almost all scripts are used so you don't have to freaking use mousewheel.
3jumps is used so you can bhop with a keyboard key, and not mousewheel.
same thing with pistol scripts.
edit : also anyone who thinks mousewheel is bad is pretty stupid, it's entire point of existance was to spam the 'changeweapon' command originally. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The mousewheel really does <b>not</b> have anything to do with this. We already know about the fact alot of things can be done with a mousewheel as well, unfortunatly, this is about a <u>script</u> blocking variable.
And I don't really care what you use your mousewheel for, just don't go about claiming the 'point' of a mousewheel, as people won't be using it the same way you do. I certainly don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sorry but 3jumps \ pistol scripts are there so you have an alternative to mousewheel<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or just another means for the same goal. That's whats the issue here, the means. I wouldn't have much of a problem if you'd empty a clip in under a second, it's more the fact that you just press a single button for it. Mousewheel could possibly be considered less dire, mostly due to fact more effort is required to use it.
However, i've think we've been offtopic for a couple o pages too much now.
Well, I guess if all of this talk about taking scripts away from good players is true, you won't have much to worry about. A good player would play almost exactly the same, except there might be a small inconvenience until they get used to not having a script to do such and such thing for them. Afterall, a good player should be able to adapt to something like this, assuming he feels the need to play on a server blocking them anyway. Like we all keep saying, this sv_blockscripts will no doubt be set to 0 by default, so it would be completely up to a server admin whether or not he wanted to block them.
This isn't the Dev team saying "No" to scripts, but it is fixing a command so servers may if they want, which is completely their choice. You really have no reason to be so, well, scared. If scripts are as harmless as you say, server admins will leave the option on 0. If they believe that taking scripts away from everyone will allow the truly skilled players to shine, they will set it on 1.
if you, for some reason, feel the urge to play on a server that allows scripts: do so if you do not: don't
this thread has proven that peoples' opinions on scripting differ, and one would assume that admins' opinions also differ
if you insist on using scripts, find a server/admin that will allow you to. if you with to play on a more even playing field, find a server/admin that will not.
<!--QuoteBegin-Edward.r2+Jul 11 2004, 08:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edward.r2 @ Jul 11 2004, 08:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-XP-Cagey+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server option is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Part of it's over the idea that the variable is bad on the whole ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here is the informed, calm, pro-blocking answer you've wanted in this thread. First, the anti-blocking points I'm going to address:
<ol type='1'><li>Scripts only automate items that could be done through keyboard mashing or mousewheel use.</li><li>Scripts aren't a substitute for actual ability to play the game, and can't be relied on to play for you.</li><li>Script blocking only masks problems in the underlying gameplay</li><li>Scripts are only a convenience, so blocking them only hurts players</li></ol> <ol type='1'><li>I have an exploit counterexample (that I'm not about to publish) requiring four sequenced commands in a single frame -- precision that can't be duplicated by a human. Sure, you can mash four *distinct* commands (this is not like +attack;-attack four times) at the same time, but you can't press and release one key at a time at a steady rate of 1 millisecond per action--for those who took typing, that'd be a burst rate of 1000 5-letter words per minute using perfectly flat timing without any errors <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I hope that my reputation for letting people into the loop when possible and knowing what I talk about will be enough for you to take my word that exploits do exist that require this sort of timing.</li><li>I agree 100% that scripts aren't a substitute for knowing how to play the game--the idea of building a bot out of the scripting language is ridiculous. If bhop and pistol scripting were the limit of what you could do with the script language, I agree there isn't much point to blocking them. The problem is the known exploits we want to block.</li><li>If rapid actions that can be duplicated without scripts break gameplay or cause bugs, the gameplay or bugs need to be addressed. The rapid-fire script exploits that we're seeing can't be addressed at the mod level -- they are buried in the engine code, and NS simply isn't getting (or going to get) support from Valve on engine issues. If inhumanly fast button combinations (at 1000 WPM) cause known exploits, it's reasonable to fix the 1000 WPM issue instead.</li><li>I agree that scripts are (in part) a convenience. I actually have used scripts for years -- my first rocket jumps on DM6 were script assisted until I learned to do them by hand. I had extensive scripts for TF, especially when I was playing a sniper. I actually asked about being able to script with more freedom in the 1.0x days and for scripts on class change -- those posts are still on the boards. I'd still be pro-script if it didn't open the door to exploits. I personally don't have any issue with either rapid pistol fire or bhop, but that's not the real issue behind getting rid of scripts. Many anti-script people are confusing the issue by repeating their own ideas that are just... wrong. One concept that is wrong is that scripts are just a convenience; see #1 above.</li></ol> Finally, I don't see the merit in debating against something that can be turned off anyway. The dev team isn't taking scripts out of NS; it is taking scripts out of servers that don't want them.
I'm not going to circle around any of the above points again with people repeating anti-block arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... and part of it is about the kind of attitude Voogru is putting out. Saying things like "it's time for scripters to die!" isn't cool. Nemisis Zero has edited other forum goers' posts for saying similar things. Bottom line is that Voogru's attitude is really offending people and causing them to lose respect for things. Is that the kind of face the dev team wants to put to the public?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voogru's comment was overboard, but it shouldn't be taken seriously--he obviously didn't mean it literally (I don't <i>think</i> he's a raving psychopath) ... and if Flay supports him, that's the end of any discussion about dev team membership. If he said "People using 1000 WPM exploits must be crushed!?, which is part of the problem he?s trying to solve, I think it would have been closer to what he meant.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hobojoe+Jul 11 2004, 02:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hobojoe @ Jul 11 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i'm pretty certain i know what you're talking about, but you do realize that 1. the entire time it's working you're compeltly locked up, and an ambush WILL kill you. 2. You could just fix the 'exploit', by putting a delay between how long you can issue the two + command's, thus allowing people who do it legitmately to notice no diffrence, and breaking it's scriptability. 3. If you remove scripting and leave the 'exploit' in as-is, it could just be macro'd, and it wouldn't lock up the client at all.
Seriously, why would you kill scripting to fix this bug, when it's been fixed in every major mod, except tfc [but bhop is faster, so it's nullified.]. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. What I'm talking about takes under 5 ms to complete -- not long enough for an ambush to matter.
2. If it were possible at the mod level to force a large pause between bad combinations of commands without slowing down the player and without writing a complete console interpreter of our own, I'd be all for it. I don't currently believe that it is.
3. By macro'd, do you mean at the keyboard driver level?
Scripting is fine, but there exist ways to abuse it. And you claim there is no way to fix the said exploit. I find this VERY hard to believe.
Imagine if, Flayra decided that he hated knockback and that he couldn't figure out how to remove it. So he makes a varible for server admins to use called cl_jump. Set it to 0, and you can no longer jump. This prevents people from 'exploiting it' but kills all the legit uses for jumping, such as jumping over railings, up slopes, down slopes, over skulks, over structures, etc. etc.
From a coding perspective on making a game, eliminating a feature of the game to prevent users from exploiting it is <b>extreamlly unethetical and sloppy to the max.</b>
Also, me and hobojoe have a slight idea of the exploit you speak of; could you at least state what the effect of the script, but to keep the script a secret so that you do not unintentionally spread it.
The two scripts I know of that can be abused:
Script that makes you move faster. Whiel you use this script everything locks up and you cannot change actions or walk directions either. It's useless to use. Also, once VAC is installed with NS, you won't have to worry about this script as VAC also fixes that whole "walk against the wall and go faster" thing, which is also what this script abuses, except you aren't against a wall.
Script that gives unlimited adren and makes you silent while using the said attacks. This script can be fixed by putting on a delay on how fast you can switch weapons, say by 1 milisecond. It would stop this I'm pretty sure.
So if one abusive script or two is fixed, you have no more argument by the way cagey. Not trying to be rude or anything, but if that's all the anti-script side has to offer then....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts only automate items that could be done through keyboard mashing or mousewheel use.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not just keyboard mashing or mwheel, but also say this:
I can't really say your situation relates to scripting much, there. Jumping is a feature automatically included into Natural Selection which every single person who plays it uses. Scripting, on the other hand, is only done by some, and if you believe what XP-Cagey is saying (Which you should, considering he actually knows what he is talking about), it would be better to simply give the option to block it, since these exploits can't be dealt with by the Natural Selection devs.
Of course my own arguments don't revolve around these exploits at all, but I'm not sure you are really getting what XP-Cagey is saying, or if you are, have just decided to not accept the facts he provides (Which in his case, we can trust they are facts, not just opinions he says are facts).
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 11 2004, 08:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 11 2004, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine if, Flayra decided that he hated knockback and that he couldn't figure out how to remove it. So he makes a varible for server admins to use called cl_jump. Set it to 0, and you can no longer jump. This prevents people from 'exploiting it' but kills all the legit uses for jumping, such as jumping over railings, up slopes, down slopes, over skulks, over structures, etc. etc.
From a coding perspective on making a game, eliminating a feature of the game to prevent users from exploiting it is <b>extreamlly unethetical and sloppy to the max.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What an utterly terrible analogy.
There is one major problem with your "example". You forgot to take in account the loss for gains.
Such as:
Blocking scripts:
Losses: <ul><li>"I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work</li><li>Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.</li></ul>Gains:<ul><li>No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled.</li><li>Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)</li><li>Does not impact the <i>intended gameplay</i> of the game at all.</li><li>Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".</li></ul>Blocking jump:
Losses:<ul><li>The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically.</li><li>A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players.</li><li>... Way too many to list.</li></ul>Gains:<ul><li>No more knockback.</li></ul>Come on now, you could have come up with a better example than jump. You're just going to extremes to try to prove your point.
... Oh well, this will be my last post on this subject, as obviously both sides are set in concrete and cannot be convinced one way or another.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ness-Earthbound+Jul 11 2004, 10:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ness-Earthbound @ Jul 11 2004, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't really say your situation relates to scripting much, there. Jumping is a feature automatically included into Natural Selection which every single person who plays it uses. Scripting, on the other hand, is only done by some, and if you believe what XP-Cagey is saying (Which you should, considering he actually knows what he is talking about), it would be better to simply give the option to block it, since these exploits can't be dealt with by the Natural Selection devs.
Of course my own arguments don't revolve around these exploits at all, but I'm not sure you are really getting what XP-Cagey is saying, or if you are, have just decided to not accept the facts he provides (Which in his case, we can trust they are facts, not just opinions he says are facts). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If scripting really gave huge advantage with extreamlly abusive scripts, and a dev couldn't find a work around to keep the scripts and not the exploit, then why make a varible to keep it?
Seriously, it would be smartest just to remove it from all servers. Something tells me it's hardly abusive.
Jumping, is a feature included in NS just like scripting is. Also, everyone uses a script. If you don't script, then that means you don't have any .cfg files. Each one of those are scripts. Just because you don't understand how they work does not mean you must remain ignorant about them.
There is one major problem with your "example". You forgot to take in account the loss for gains.
Such as:
Blocking scripts:
Losses:
* "I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work * Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.
Gains:
* No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled. * Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example) * Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all. * Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".
Blocking jump:
Losses:
* The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically. * A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players. * ... Way too many to list.
Gains:
* No more knockback.
Come on now, you could have come up with a better example than jump. You're just going to extremes to try to prove your point.
... Oh well, this will be my last post on this subject, as obviously both sides are set in concrete and cannot be convinced one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
* "I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work * Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Other forms of utility scripts that no longer work", nice way to sum that up, if you actually bothered to write out all of the utility scripts you just killed then you would have a list about 50 lines long.
* No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled. * Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example) * Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all. * Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No exploitable scripts... lets say they actually exist for the sake of argument.
"Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)"
No, the playing field is never equal. First of all, if I have a faster computer, I will be able to shoot faster, jetpack faster, blink faster, leap faster, bhop faster, for starters. I also have better control of my aim with higher fps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a gain? You remove something that helps with convience and it makes the game better? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Huh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is neither a gain or a loss. It is the basis of the argument in this thread.
* The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically. * A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players. * ... Way too many to list.
Gains:
* No more knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would first like to point out there would still be knockback, just no more 10 foot knockbacks. And I agree with the losses and gains here. And as you can see, this list is just like the idea of removing scripts.
Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.
What I don't understand is why you are getting so upset about this Forlorn. You have stated that scripts don't allow you to do anything you can't do another way, so why not use the other way?
Whether you agree that scripts will solve anything or not, I can't see any reason to get really annoyed about it. As you say, scripts aren't needed. It'll just be an inconveniece, not the end of the world.
The fact you are getting so upset about it suggests that there is things you won't be able to do if scripting is disabled.
<!--QuoteBegin-CheesyPeteza+Jul 12 2004, 06:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Jul 12 2004, 06:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What I don't understand is why you are getting so upset about this Forlorn. You have stated that scripts don't allow you to do anything you can't do another way, so why not use the other way?
Whether you agree that scripts will solve anything or not, I can't see any reason to get really annoyed about it. As you say, scripts aren't needed. It'll just be an inconveniece, not the end of the world.
The fact you are getting so upset about it suggests that there is things you won't be able to do if scripting is disabled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74571&view=findpost&p=1141792' target='_blank'>Page 3</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 12 2004, 11:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 12 2004, 11:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)"
No, the playing field is never equal. First of all, if I have a faster computer, I will be able to shoot faster, jetpack faster, blink faster, leap faster, bhop faster, for starters. I also have better control of my aim with higher fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe so, but I don't understand how that would render efforts in other places useless? Sure people with 100FPS will have some advantage, but if it was up to the dev's, they'd give every single player 100FPS. Just because they might not be able to iron out elements doesn't mean they shouldn't.
Comments
Not that I ever thought you could have put any sort of weight behind your argument to begain with... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even read our arguement?
Its simply "this will allow server operators to choose how to run their server" and expand on it if they so wish.
Our arguement isn't scripts are abusive. You're missing the point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either way, I'm not going to change anyone's opinion. I'll just stick to my script sv_blockscripts 1 server though.
And to quote Forlorn for something not related to scripts in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You have three things in the development of a game like NS:
- Coders (makes it happen)
- Bug testers (looks for game problems)
- Avid competetive players (looks for gameplay problems)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong on one part. Theres four groups. The public community would be number four. I've voice my opinion before that NS should be balanced for the fun of the mass public before the fun of the private clan few.
Are you against binding mousewheel to substitute as a script to spam a certain command?
The main problem I have with this cvar is that it will split an already torn community even more, creating more disrespect and unrest about the other side.
In some ways I am actually looking forward to this being implemented. Public players will realize that good players do not rely on scripts to perform in every aspect of the game. I also have a selfish reason, being that those who once accused me of scripting will realize they are wrong.
Perhaps the community will actually be brought together once they realize scripts do no substitute for skill, as other game/mod communities have come to understand.
Are you against binding mousewheel to substitute as a script to spam a certain command?
The main problem I have with this cvar is that it will split an already torn community even more, creating more disrespect and unrest about the other side.
In some ways I am actually looking forward to this being implemented. Public players will realize that good players do not rely on scripts to perform in every aspect of the game. I also have a selfish reason, being that those who once accused me of scripting will realize they are wrong.
Perhaps the community will actually be brought together once they realize scripts do no substitute for skill, as other game/mod communities have come to understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I'm against the mousewheel, which is one of the reasons I was saying that ROF should just be lowered on the pistol, but you're right. All this does is divide the community even more. I have no doubt there are good players out there that don't need the scripts, but theres also a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're wrong on one part. Theres four groups. The public community would be number four. I've voice my opinion before that NS should be balanced for the fun of the mass public before the fun of the private clan few.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But public players don't find gameplay problems any better than competetive ones do.
Again, notice, I did not state competetive ones should state "I want you to make my game like this" but they should just be finding problems in gameplay, much like the original vet program was done.
Ever hear of a super succesful card game called Magic the Gathering? How do you think they balance that? With random card players off the street? Nope! They take the best of the best in the world and hold private tournaments with new cards that are being developed and worked on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes I'm against the mousewheel, which is one of the reasons I was saying that ROF should just be lowered on the pistol, but you're right. All this does is divide the community even more. I have no doubt there are good players out there that don't need the scripts, but theres also a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well at least you are consistant. The reason a pistol script and jump script are perfectly fair is preciously because of the mousewheel, macro's, and the fact that you can bind the same command to many keys.
And you are wrong about "a lot more people out there who can't do jack without them."
More often than not, good players can do it without, scripts are simply to streamline their commands much like a race car driver streamlines his car.
The problem resides in the fact that scripting is included as part of the engine as default. Wether the Valve team had forethought to see what their userbase could come up with in the form of personal gameplay enhancements via physics engine bugs, weapon recoil and / or reloading processes really has no bearing on the discussion. It's built in the engine, and if the NS dev's decide to have a fully level playing ground <b>code</b> wise by removing scripting - then more power to them. It is not mine, the dev team, nor anyone elses problem if you're running substandard hardware in 2004 on a 5 year old game engine causing you to FPS lag. It is a problem tho if below a certain standard your gameplay is degraded in terms of cpu cycles and code.
Personally I've never bought the reasoning that scripting is a convenience ability, as most of the people who use these types of configs couldn't do it anyway in the first place, and it doesn't seem to hamper them in games without scripting abilities. You can throw +mwheelup / down in this area as well, with the ability to rappidly aggitate the sensor it throws off any sort of physical functional restrictions that other buttons and or keys carry. There is no way short of macroing a mouse button or keyboard key that will produce the ammount of processes per second as the mousewheel.
At any rate, even if the above steps are fixed there will always be a certain percentile of players that have to win by whatever means necessary, and will resort to third party key process macros and such. These tho tend to be an egotistical breed, and relatively easy to avoid if needed (and thankfully so).
<!--QuoteBegin-voogru+Jul 8 2004, 06:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voogru @ Jul 8 2004, 06:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you think, while you're on a bug fixing spree, you could turn lastinv into a client side command? That currently is the only script I use, and it does make playing more bearable since lag isn't as noticable with it. Many players would probably be grateful for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll have to see, im not TOO familiar with the client just yet but I'll probably figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to derail, but I did this before I left as part of the fix for bug #479 (private view only) -- it's in the chunk of code I gave Flay.
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->mp_blockscripts 0<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server <b>option</b> is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The argument is that sv_blockscripts is useless to put in the game. There is no reason to ban scripts, even if you do not like scripts because scripts do not change how the game is played nor does it make people overly better nor does it break the game.
In fact, I've still been waiting for a response from someone suggesting why such a server varible is needed, but at best the most response I've recieved towards this question is a flame, while everyone else seems to focus on how it will only be a server option and therefore there is no need to 'care'.
Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um... players are going to get whomped on regardless of scripts
If you are niave to believe that scripting makes you a good player, then you
a.) Obviously have never used a script
b.) Don't know there isn't one script that improves your skill?
Want a simple, up-front reason? it balances the playing field. it makes the game more competitive in that casual players don't get shafted out of having a good time just because others that they play with will do anything, <i>anything</i> to win.
On another note, I respect Keyser a fair deal more for his post <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um... players are going to get whomped on regardless of scripts
If you are niave to believe that scripting makes you a good player, then you
a.) Obviously have never used a script
b.) Don't know there isn't one script that improves your skill? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) Yes, I have used scripts in the past and no, I don't plan to again.
b) I believe that any script that makes a difficult action EASIER for the person using it is exploitive. Every player should have an equal opportunity - actual personal coordination, you know? I'm sure you have a wonderful selection of scripts in your own repertoire that fit this description.
Not that I ever thought you could have put any sort of weight behind your argument to begain with...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone I know uses some scripts posted by Communist With A Scriptingthread. To be more exact, as far as I know, a pistol script and a bunnyhopping script(triple jump if you prefer).
Now, the pistol script he has, fires 2 bullets each time he uses +attack. I think you must be rather thick not to realise the advantages if this. If think most are familiar with the unstability of your mouse when you try to empty a pistol clip as fast as possible. Assuming you're using mouse1 for +attack, wich most do, pressing it consiquently at a fast rate causes the mouse to get a little shacky, and the player has to put more effort in aiming properly. Now, this event simply doesn't occur with the mentioned pistol script. Simple, since the player only has to press half as many times to empty his clip, resulting in easier aim, and thereby an advantage over non-scripters.
Next script: The bunnyhop script (triple jump whatever).
This guy (refering to him as guy, but you can pretty much fit the majority of the NSPlayers in this discription) hasn't exactly the most perfect bunnyhop, admittetly infact. The script allows him to easely perform the timing of the bunnyhop by... well... pressing a single button! Thereby he can focus on other stuff (getting proper bunnyhop movement etc). Now this wouldn't be half as bad, knowing that experienced players use these scripts as well, and thereby (while already being able to bunnyhop properly) be able to put even <b>more</b> effort into movement, attacking and god knows what. Clearly, an advantage once again, over non-scripters.
I'm not completely sure why I bothered posting examples, since I know Forlorn is just out for another scripting flamewar. Facts are: Scripts are exploitable, And yes it really happens, And NO there's no point arguing over people's opinions on scripting.
The fact that there are more than 1 way into accomplishing this, doesn't mean it's automatically a normal thing. Alot of people will have a thing against the mousewheel-method as well. But that's not really the point. The point being, scripts can be used to gain an advantage.
You realize that this exact same thing could be accomplished by binding +attack to a key on the keyboard and hammering it for the pistol? In fact, it would even be better than the script because it wouldn't shake your mouse at all. You could just as easily hit the pistol RoF cap, as well.
<!--QuoteBegin-XP-Cagey+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XP-Cagey)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was this argument about again? Surely not the fact that a server option is going to be closer to working as it was designed? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of it's over the idea that the variable is bad on the whole, and part of it is about the kind of attitude Voogru is putting out. Saying things like "it's time for scripters to die!" isn't cool. Nemisis Zero has edited other forum goers' posts for saying similar things. Bottom line is that Voogru's attitude is really offending people and causing them to lose respect for things. Is that the kind of face the dev team wants to put to the public?
I'm sorry you feel that way, because there is no script that can make a bad player good. The only two scripts that offer any sort of advantage (and some might call unfair), are the pistol script and the bunnyhop script. I personally don't find it hard to come near the max RoF when firing my pistol normally, and I can easily hit the RoF when unloading into a wall. You really don't need a script to accomplish that, but it does offer an advantage to new players. If you can't aim in the first place, than this script does nothing, except you run out of bullets much faster.
And if you give a new player a +3jump script, he won't start playing like a pro. It will actually probably offer no advantage to him since he doesn't know the corresponding skill to go along with it. If you take it away from an experienced player, then his skulk game might become slightly worse, unless he binds +jump to mwheel. If you haven't realized by now, bunnyhopping does not give you any combat advantage, it is simply a tool to get from point A to point B faster. You will probably finding yourself dieing much faster if you try to bhop up to a marine rather than ambushing and baiting.
I am very much against removing the usage of the mousewheel though. This is a feature that comes standard on pretty much every mouse, so you don't get the unfair advantage that (many claim) scripts give you. Almost everyone can bind +jump to mwheel, so they have the tools to bhop just as well as anyone else without having to search for obscure scripts. I'm not sure what people are trying to accomplish arguing against mousewheel usage, but it certainly is not evening the playing field.
Quite true, however you still wouldn't come near the speed you can reach with a script, not to mention the sore fingers (and broken keyboards <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->) you get. Besides of wich, you'll be getting 2 different fire keys, not quite practical.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->no, the point is almost all scripts are used so you don't have to freaking use mousewheel.
3jumps is used so you can bhop with a keyboard key, and not mousewheel.
same thing with pistol scripts.
edit : also anyone who thinks mousewheel is bad is pretty stupid, it's entire point of existance was to spam the 'changeweapon' command originally. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The mousewheel really does <b>not</b> have anything to do with this. We already know about the fact alot of things can be done with a mousewheel as well, unfortunatly, this is about a <u>script</u> blocking variable.
And I don't really care what you use your mousewheel for, just don't go about claiming the 'point' of a mousewheel, as people won't be using it the same way you do. I certainly don't.
Or just another means for the same goal. That's whats the issue here, the means. I wouldn't have much of a problem if you'd empty a clip in under a second, it's more the fact that you just press a single button for it. Mousewheel could possibly be considered less dire, mostly due to fact more effort is required to use it.
However, i've think we've been offtopic for a couple o pages too much now.
This isn't the Dev team saying "No" to scripts, but it is fixing a command so servers may if they want, which is completely their choice. You really have no reason to be so, well, scared. If scripts are as harmless as you say, server admins will leave the option on 0. If they believe that taking scripts away from everyone will allow the truly skilled players to shine, they will set it on 1.
if you do not: don't
this thread has proven that peoples' opinions on scripting differ, and one would assume that admins' opinions also differ
if you insist on using scripts, find a server/admin that will allow you to. if you with to play on a more even playing field, find a server/admin that will not.
Part of it's over the idea that the variable is bad on the whole ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here is the informed, calm, pro-blocking answer you've wanted in this thread. First, the anti-blocking points I'm going to address:
<ol type='1'><li>Scripts only automate items that could be done through keyboard mashing or mousewheel use.</li><li>Scripts aren't a substitute for actual ability to play the game, and can't be relied on to play for you.</li><li>Script blocking only masks problems in the underlying gameplay</li><li>Scripts are only a convenience, so blocking them only hurts players</li></ol>
<ol type='1'><li>I have an exploit counterexample (that I'm not about to publish) requiring four sequenced commands in a single frame -- precision that can't be duplicated by a human. Sure, you can mash four *distinct* commands (this is not like +attack;-attack four times) at the same time, but you can't press and release one key at a time at a steady rate of 1 millisecond per action--for those who took typing, that'd be a burst rate of 1000 5-letter words per minute using perfectly flat timing without any errors <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I hope that my reputation for letting people into the loop when possible and knowing what I talk about will be enough for you to take my word that exploits do exist that require this sort of timing.</li><li>I agree 100% that scripts aren't a substitute for knowing how to play the game--the idea of building a bot out of the scripting language is ridiculous. If bhop and pistol scripting were the limit of what you could do with the script language, I agree there isn't much point to blocking them. The problem is the known exploits we want to block.</li><li>If rapid actions that can be duplicated without scripts break gameplay or cause bugs, the gameplay or bugs need to be addressed. The rapid-fire script exploits that we're seeing can't be addressed at the mod level -- they are buried in the engine code, and NS simply isn't getting (or going to get) support from Valve on engine issues. If inhumanly fast button combinations (at 1000 WPM) cause known exploits, it's reasonable to fix the 1000 WPM issue instead.</li><li>I agree that scripts are (in part) a convenience. I actually have used scripts for years -- my first rocket jumps on DM6 were script assisted until I learned to do them by hand. I had extensive scripts for TF, especially when I was playing a sniper. I actually asked about being able to script with more freedom in the 1.0x days and for scripts on class change -- those posts are still on the boards. I'd still be pro-script if it didn't open the door to exploits. I personally don't have any issue with either rapid pistol fire or bhop, but that's not the real issue behind getting rid of scripts. Many anti-script people are confusing the issue by repeating their own ideas that are just... wrong. One concept that is wrong is that scripts are just a convenience; see #1 above.</li></ol>
Finally, I don't see the merit in debating against something that can be turned off anyway. The dev team isn't taking scripts out of NS; it is taking scripts out of servers that don't want them.
I'm not going to circle around any of the above points again with people repeating anti-block arguments.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... and part of it is about the kind of attitude Voogru is putting out. Saying things like "it's time for scripters to die!" isn't cool. Nemisis Zero has edited other forum goers' posts for saying similar things. Bottom line is that Voogru's attitude is really offending people and causing them to lose respect for things. Is that the kind of face the dev team wants to put to the public?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voogru's comment was overboard, but it shouldn't be taken seriously--he obviously didn't mean it literally (I don't <i>think</i> he's a raving psychopath) ... and if Flay supports him, that's the end of any discussion about dev team membership. If he said "People using 1000 WPM exploits must be crushed!?, which is part of the problem he?s trying to solve, I think it would have been closer to what he meant.
1. the entire time it's working you're compeltly locked up, and an ambush WILL kill you.
2. You could just fix the 'exploit', by putting a delay between how long you can issue the two + command's, thus allowing people who do it legitmately to notice no diffrence, and breaking it's scriptability.
3. If you remove scripting and leave the 'exploit' in as-is, it could just be macro'd, and it wouldn't lock up the client at all.
Seriously, why would you kill scripting to fix this bug, when it's been fixed in every major mod, except tfc [but bhop is faster, so it's nullified.]. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. What I'm talking about takes under 5 ms to complete -- not long enough for an ambush to matter.
2. If it were possible at the mod level to force a large pause between bad combinations of commands without slowing down the player and without writing a complete console interpreter of our own, I'd be all for it. I don't currently believe that it is.
3. By macro'd, do you mean at the keyboard driver level?
It seems kind of silly to allow the server admins to decide whether or not the players can exploit.
Scripting is fine, but there exist ways to abuse it. And you claim there is no way to fix the said exploit. I find this VERY hard to believe.
Imagine if, Flayra decided that he hated knockback and that he couldn't figure out how to remove it. So he makes a varible for server admins to use called cl_jump. Set it to 0, and you can no longer jump. This prevents people from 'exploiting it' but kills all the legit uses for jumping, such as jumping over railings, up slopes, down slopes, over skulks, over structures, etc. etc.
From a coding perspective on making a game, eliminating a feature of the game to prevent users from exploiting it is <b>extreamlly unethetical and sloppy to the max.</b>
Also, me and hobojoe have a slight idea of the exploit you speak of; could you at least state what the effect of the script, but to keep the script a secret so that you do not unintentionally spread it.
The two scripts I know of that can be abused:
Script that makes you move faster. Whiel you use this script everything locks up and you cannot change actions or walk directions either. It's useless to use. Also, once VAC is installed with NS, you won't have to worry about this script as VAC also fixes that whole "walk against the wall and go faster" thing, which is also what this script abuses, except you aren't against a wall.
Script that gives unlimited adren and makes you silent while using the said attacks. This script can be fixed by putting on a delay on how fast you can switch weapons, say by 1 milisecond. It would stop this I'm pretty sure.
So if one abusive script or two is fixed, you have no more argument by the way cagey. Not trying to be rude or anything, but if that's all the anti-script side has to offer then....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scripts only automate items that could be done through keyboard mashing or mousewheel use.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not just keyboard mashing or mwheel, but also say this:
bind space +jump
bind mouse2 +jump
bind mwheeldown +jump
bind mwheelup +jump
Now you just hit any of those keys as you land and poof you will probably never miss a jump in 1 million years
Of course my own arguments don't revolve around these exploits at all, but I'm not sure you are really getting what XP-Cagey is saying, or if you are, have just decided to not accept the facts he provides (Which in his case, we can trust they are facts, not just opinions he says are facts).
Imagine if, Flayra decided that he hated knockback and that he couldn't figure out how to remove it. So he makes a varible for server admins to use called cl_jump. Set it to 0, and you can no longer jump. This prevents people from 'exploiting it' but kills all the legit uses for jumping, such as jumping over railings, up slopes, down slopes, over skulks, over structures, etc. etc.
From a coding perspective on making a game, eliminating a feature of the game to prevent users from exploiting it is <b>extreamlly unethetical and sloppy to the max.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What an utterly terrible analogy.
There is one major problem with your "example". You forgot to take in account the loss for gains.
Such as:
Blocking scripts:
Losses: <ul><li>"I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work</li><li>Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.</li></ul>Gains:<ul><li>No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled.</li><li>Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)</li><li>Does not impact the <i>intended gameplay</i> of the game at all.</li><li>Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".</li></ul>Blocking jump:
Losses:<ul><li>The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically.</li><li>A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players.</li><li>... Way too many to list.</li></ul>Gains:<ul><li>No more knockback.</li></ul>Come on now, you could have come up with a better example than jump. You're just going to extremes to try to prove your point.
... Oh well, this will be my last post on this subject, as obviously both sides are set in concrete and cannot be convinced one way or another.
Of course my own arguments don't revolve around these exploits at all, but I'm not sure you are really getting what XP-Cagey is saying, or if you are, have just decided to not accept the facts he provides (Which in his case, we can trust they are facts, not just opinions he says are facts). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If scripting really gave huge advantage with extreamlly abusive scripts, and a dev couldn't find a work around to keep the scripts and not the exploit, then why make a varible to keep it?
Seriously, it would be smartest just to remove it from all servers. Something tells me it's hardly abusive.
Jumping, is a feature included in NS just like scripting is. Also, everyone uses a script. If you don't script, then that means you don't have any .cfg files. Each one of those are scripts. Just because you don't understand how they work does not mean you must remain ignorant about them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What an utterly terrible analogy.
There is one major problem with your "example". You forgot to take in account the loss for gains.
Such as:
Blocking scripts:
Losses:
* "I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work
* Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.
Gains:
* No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled.
* Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)
* Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all.
* Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".
Blocking jump:
Losses:
* The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically.
* A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players.
* ... Way too many to list.
Gains:
* No more knockback.
Come on now, you could have come up with a better example than jump. You're just going to extremes to try to prove your point.
... Oh well, this will be my last post on this subject, as obviously both sides are set in concrete and cannot be convinced one way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the real losses and gains:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Losses:
* "I need <health/ammo/res tower> here stat!" macros no longer work
* Other forms of utility scripts no longer work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Other forms of utility scripts that no longer work", nice way to sum that up, if you actually bothered to write out all of the utility scripts you just killed then you would have a list about 50 lines long.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gains:
* No longer any possibility of exploitable scripts on servers with it enabled.
* Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)
* Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all.
* Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No exploitable scripts... lets say they actually exist for the sake of argument.
"Creates an "equal" playing field in terms of script wise. (No longer can X shoot pistols faster than Y because X uses a script and Y does not, for a generalized example)"
No, the playing field is never equal. First of all, if I have a faster computer, I will be able to shoot faster, jetpack faster, blink faster, leap faster, bhop faster, for starters. I also have better control of my aim with higher fps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* Does not impact the intended gameplay of the game at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a gain? You remove something that helps with convience and it makes the game better? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Huh?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* Is a toggleable option. If a server sees that it's community doesn't like the fact that utility scripts have been blocked along with "exploitable" scripts, then it can be turned off. There is no gun being held to somebody's head saying "use it or die".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is neither a gain or a loss. It is the basis of the argument in this thread.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Losses:
* The game needs to be completely and entirely redesigned, basically.
* A common feature of many FPS is now lost, confusing many players.
* ... Way too many to list.
Gains:
* No more knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would first like to point out there would still be knockback, just no more 10 foot knockbacks. And I agree with the losses and gains here. And as you can see, this list is just like the idea of removing scripts.
Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.
Whether you agree that scripts will solve anything or not, I can't see any reason to get really annoyed about it. As you say, scripts aren't needed. It'll just be an inconveniece, not the end of the world.
The fact you are getting so upset about it suggests that there is things you won't be able to do if scripting is disabled.
Whether you agree that scripts will solve anything or not, I can't see any reason to get really annoyed about it. As you say, scripts aren't needed. It'll just be an inconveniece, not the end of the world.
The fact you are getting so upset about it suggests that there is things you won't be able to do if scripting is disabled. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74571&view=findpost&p=1141792' target='_blank'>Page 3</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrestly enough, still yet anyone has proven that there exists an exploitable or unfair script that can't be replicated through other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, the playing field is never equal. First of all, if I have a faster computer, I will be able to shoot faster, jetpack faster, blink faster, leap faster, bhop faster, for starters. I also have better control of my aim with higher fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe so, but I don't understand how that would render efforts in other places useless? Sure people with 100FPS will have some advantage, but if it was up to the dev's, they'd give every single player 100FPS. Just because they might not be able to iron out elements doesn't mean they shouldn't.