Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 3 2004, 06:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 3 2004, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How many people have been killed in the WTC? 3000? And how many people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq by Us troops only? 20000? Does it equal out or not? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> our kill count of hostiles is around 10k.
and the reason i can count lives this way is because i love humans, i love people, but i'm just crazy enough or just cynical enough or just don't care enough NOT to look at the big picture.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 3 2004, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 3 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How can one talk about human lifes in such a horrible way? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it'd drive you absolutely insane to sit down and look at a number like 10000, hell, even 100, and imagine each one of them as a person just as you are, being killed and simply not existing any more. It's easier to look at a number than it is to imagine the person. I just see it as preserving my sanity.
And on topic, look at it basically and logically: There are women out there, they have breasts, they have vaginas. There are desperate men out there who see the Americans as the evil invaders. <b>Desperate</b> men. Seems fairly simple. I'd see it as just another risk for the soldiers out there.
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 3 2004, 09:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 3 2004, 09:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't you realize that we're talking about <i>Human Beings</i> and not about some game. We're talking about people who have mothers, fathers, children, friends. How can you say that it's horrible that they're killed by Saddam Hussein, yet if they're killed by US troops it's fine because they're going to safe the lifes of other people?
How can one talk about human lifes in such a horrible way? It's war, and some of you are pecking like vultures, just to find a justification for their ideology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What are you talking about?
Stop taking everything out of context and wrapping it in horrible logic.
It's called sacrifice. If you've ever studied history, or read almost any good story, sacrifice is involved.
Yes, I realize no one has a choice in who is killed or not, esp if you are a civilian, however, you may confuddle the situation all you want,
but it would make perfect sense to you if you were an iraqi.
I mean, according to your logic, since losing one life is such a horrible thing, we may as wipe out the entire human race the next time someone dies.
Please do not ignore severity, eggmac, exaggerations have no place in simple discussion.
You may as well say to someone who just cut themselves 20 cm deep, spent months in a hospital recovering, and the docters realize that unless he is cut 2 cm deep by someone else due to a bad mental disorder he will cut himself another 20 cm deep.
Your logic would say, "But oh my god, think of the blood cells he would lose... either way it's a total waste! How can you justify that?!?!"
Oh and by the way, it is precisely the type of logic you just employed eggmac that Stalin's quote works:
"1 death is a tragedy, 1 million is a statistic", simply because people go numb to severity, which is so incredibly dangerous I could probably write a thesis paper on it.
<!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Jul 1 2004, 04:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Jul 1 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jul 1 2004, 03:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jul 1 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With an Islamic extremist government. Hmm... wasn't Saddam's secular government supressing these groups? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Saddam was "suppressing" these groups alright. He was also "suppressing" the rest of Iraq, including the Kurds, for whom "suppression" meant "death". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the Kurds weren't going to attack America. Now all the resident Islamic extremists are free to blow s*** up in America. In other words, we screwed up for some oil... er, I mean supressed peoples.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jul 4 2004, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jul 4 2004, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-5kyh16h91+Jul 1 2004, 04:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Jul 1 2004, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jul 1 2004, 03:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jul 1 2004, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With an Islamic extremist government. Hmm... wasn't Saddam's secular government supressing these groups? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Saddam was "suppressing" these groups alright. He was also "suppressing" the rest of Iraq, including the Kurds, for whom "suppression" meant "death". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but the Kurds weren't going to attack America. Now all the resident Islamic extremists are free to blow s*** up in America. In other words, we screwed up for some oil... er, I mean supressed peoples. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How are terroists now more free to blow up **** in America now that one of their biggest supports, suppliers and cash granters are now out of business?
<!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn your reply seems simply rediculous to me and I'm not going to debate about basic moral values. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn your reply seems simply rediculous to me and I'm not going to debate about basic moral values. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn your reply seems simply rediculous to me and I'm not going to debate about basic moral values. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn your reply seems simply rediculous to me and I'm not going to debate about basic moral values. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash.
<!--QuoteBegin-TommyVercetti+Jul 5 2004, 09:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TommyVercetti @ Jul 5 2004, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jul 5 2004, 05:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 5 2004, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eggmac+Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 5 2004, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn your reply seems simply rediculous to me and I'm not going to debate about basic moral values. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> huh?
These terror groups aren't connected by nationalities or politics. They are connected by their religion and the ideals that stem from their religion. Therefore, they are ALL OVER the Middle East, receiving support or at least shelter from basically every country in the region. Basically, the only real way to stop terrorism -apart from invading and subduing <u>every friggin Muslim nation</u> - is to fight terrorists where they show themselves and hopefully intimidate the rest. At least that's what I think.
I think 5kyh16h91 said it. You can't really fight terrorism in an offensive war; it's everywhere. Invading a country because they may be terrorists or terrrorist connections in it is like handing out the death sentence because a citizen looks like a criminal. Basically, the "war" should be a defensive one until we get some Minority Report type stuff that lets you track them. Oh wait, we do. It's called the CIA and it's underused.
<!--QuoteBegin-404NotFound+Jul 1 2004, 08:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Jul 1 2004, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Isn't this the guy that was ducking in and out of mosques to avoid US capture?
This guy needs to be gotten rid of... fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No that's <a href='http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089065409733&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724&tacodalogin=no' target='_blank'>this guy.</a>
Al Zaqari is the supposed leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. Although the evidence is good enough to believe that assumption to be true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find any claim that Saudi Arabia is supporting terrorists to be rediculous. A very high secondary priority for al Qaeda (behind attacking American interests) is destabilizing the Saudi regime. It's a secular monarchy. That's right, secular. It is, however, a country with a great disparity of wealth and close to 50% unemployment. They do sponsor Madrasas, which are islamic religious schools which do a lot to encourage fundamentalist islamism. Does that mean they're sponsoring terrorism? No. They have said (and I believe) it's a case of fighting fire with fire (burn the underbrush and a major conflagration is less likely to erupt). In other words, it's likely that the high unemployment would create dissatisfaction that would drive the people towards fundamentalism anyway. This way at least they have their thumb on them and can more easily deal with problem cases.
Look at America. We have a secular government. Can you imagine "In God we trust" actually being taken off the money? Can you imagine non-Protestant presidents (with the exception of people from Massachusetts)? The answer is unfortunately no, because our democratic government is as much controlled by the masses as any autocratic government, albeit less violently so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the US troops responsible for 1000 deaths to save 100000 lifes? Or are they responsible for 10 deaths to safe 100 Lifes? Or do those numbers equal out? Or is it actually vice versa, have there been more people killed by US troops by now than there would have been under Saddam Hussein?
How many people have been killed in the WTC? 3000? And how many people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq by Us troops only? 20000? Does it equal out or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as the argument about the value of lives, all I have to say is if you don't believe 10 lives < 100 lives, more power to you. I think it's a noble sentiment not to place value on a human life. Just please, <i>please</i> don't go into government where you have to make those kind of pragmatic choices all the time. I'd rather have a cynic accountant than an idealist. I won't bother trying to argue whether or not the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan were right or wrong on this basis. Sounds like Sisyphus to me. I'll just say that although I may sometimes disagree with other people about their choices, I've never yet met a human who felt that what they were doing wasn't for the greater good of humanity, and at least that I can respect...
I'll see your call of 1000 American troops and raise you 10000 Iraqi civilians!
See look above it is a game!! Who cares who dies they are only numbers! They really aren't real people, well at least this is how Bush see's it. If he was actually present and witnessed the deaths of every single one of the marines/Iraqi's that were killed, and the families that were affected by them I am sure he would apoligize to America and pull out ASAP.
When you attack any country and occupy it, you are inherently creating insurgents and terrorists by doing such acts. The people won't negotiate with you because they have been invaded and the only way they can stop you is through terrorism. When you kill a kids Father who was defending Iraq from the "invaders" do you think he is going to love America?
Reasa, pulling out is not a stupid or ignorant thing to say, you yourself are calling yourself ignorant and stupid when you state something like that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Jul 6 2004, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Jul 6 2004, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Reasa, pulling out is not a stupid or ignorant thing to say, you yourself are calling yourself ignorant and stupid when you state something like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am by no means a supporter of American militaristic moral standard, nor did I support the Americans unilateral war in Iraq in the first place, but you can not go into a country, create a power vaccume, and then pull out! There hasn't been a single instance in history where that kind of movement turned out for the best. Even in India, a land led by probably the most peaceful rights activist ever, the vacume left behind by the withdrawl of the British did nothing but cause mass bloodshed.
If America pulls out now there is only one viable sequence of events for the future of Iraq. The only existing power broker within Iraq (the exreamist anti American Muslims) takes power, they very likely annihilate all opposing factions to themselfs (shite, sunni or whatever, I don't know thier alighnment), and then they support continued terrorist attacks on the west with whatever funding they can muster. Remeber these guys are even more extreme then the Islamic government in Iran, they are beheading people for Gods sake. Contrary to the bizzare belive that the only cause of Iriqies hate for america is their current occupation of Iraq, in reality etreamist mulims have hundreds of points on which they defend thier belives, and simply pulling out is DEFINATELY NOT going to change anthing about what they intend to do to America given the chance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jul 6 2004, 10:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jul 6 2004, 10:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+Jul 6 2004, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ Jul 6 2004, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Reasa, pulling out is not a stupid or ignorant thing to say, you yourself are calling yourself ignorant and stupid when you state something like that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am by no means a supporter of American militaristic moral standard, nor did I support the Americans unilateral war in Iraq in the first place, but you can not go into a country, create a power vaccume, and then pull out! There hasn't been a single instance in history where that kind of movement turned out for the best. Even in India, a land led by probably the most peaceful rights activist ever, the vacume left behind by the withdrawl of the British did nothing but cause mass bloodshed.
If America pulls out now there is only one viable sequence of events for the future of Iraq. The only existing power broker within Iraq (the exreamist anti American Muslims) takes power, they very likely annihilate all opposing factions to themselfs (shite, sunni or whatever, I don't know thier alighnment), and then they support continued terrorist attacks on the west with whatever funding they can muster. Remeber these guys are even more extreme then the Islamic government in Iran, they are beheading people for Gods sake. Contrary to the bizzare belive that the only cause of Iriqies hate for america is their current occupation of Iraq, in reality etreamist mulims have hundreds of points on which they defend thier belives, and simply pulling out is DEFINATELY NOT going to change anthing about what they intend to do to America given the chance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You gotta realize that its gonna happen eventually when we do pull out. We handed the power over to the new government of Iraq(all who speak English), but we still control the defense of the country. We can set them up with defenses and all that stuff, but once we pull out the extremist groups will overthrow the Government and take it back.
This is a repeat in history, just look at the Vietnam War. When we eventually pulled out, we gave the South Vietnamese defense, training, guns, etc. What happened when we pulled out? The South Vietnamese dropped their weapons and surrendered. Did we accomplish anything in Vietnam? Yeah, losing 55,000 thousand American lives.
Thats what is gonna be remembered about this war(except the casualities will be a lot smaller but still unacceptable).
Comments
our kill count of hostiles is around 10k.
and the reason i can count lives this way is because i love humans, i love people, but i'm just crazy enough or just cynical enough or just don't care enough NOT to look at the big picture.
Are you implying if all the US. in Iraq are females, they aren't allowed to shoot at them?
Sound like a win-win.
Are you implying if all the US. in Iraq are females, they aren't allowed to shoot at them?
Sound like a win-win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh???
Is who implying that?
That isn't the case of this topic at all.
Because it'd drive you absolutely insane to sit down and look at a number like 10000, hell, even 100, and imagine each one of them as a person just as you are, being killed and simply not existing any more. It's easier to look at a number than it is to imagine the person. I just see it as preserving my sanity.
And on topic, look at it basically and logically: There are women out there, they have breasts, they have vaginas. There are desperate men out there who see the Americans as the evil invaders. <b>Desperate</b> men. Seems fairly simple. I'd see it as just another risk for the soldiers out there.
How can one talk about human lifes in such a horrible way? It's war, and some of you are pecking like vultures, just to find a justification for their ideology. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about?
Stop taking everything out of context and wrapping it in horrible logic.
It's called sacrifice. If you've ever studied history, or read almost any good story, sacrifice is involved.
Yes, I realize no one has a choice in who is killed or not, esp if you are a civilian, however, you may confuddle the situation all you want,
but it would make perfect sense to you if you were an iraqi.
I mean, according to your logic, since losing one life is such a horrible thing, we may as wipe out the entire human race the next time someone dies.
Please do not ignore severity, eggmac, exaggerations have no place in simple discussion.
You may as well say to someone who just cut themselves 20 cm deep, spent months in a hospital recovering, and the docters realize that unless he is cut 2 cm deep by someone else due to a bad mental disorder he will cut himself another 20 cm deep.
Your logic would say, "But oh my god, think of the blood cells he would lose... either way it's a total waste! How can you justify that?!?!"
Oh and by the way, it is precisely the type of logic you just employed eggmac that Stalin's quote works:
"1 death is a tragedy, 1 million is a statistic", simply because people go numb to severity, which is so incredibly dangerous I could probably write a thesis paper on it.
Saddam was "suppressing" these groups alright. He was also "suppressing" the rest of Iraq, including the Kurds, for whom "suppression" meant "death". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the Kurds weren't going to attack America. Now all the resident Islamic extremists are free to blow s*** up in America. In other words, we screwed up for some oil... er, I mean supressed peoples.
Saddam was "suppressing" these groups alright. He was also "suppressing" the rest of Iraq, including the Kurds, for whom "suppression" meant "death". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the Kurds weren't going to attack America. Now all the resident Islamic extremists are free to blow s*** up in America. In other words, we screwed up for some oil... er, I mean supressed peoples. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How are terroists now more free to blow up **** in America now that one of their biggest supports, suppliers and cash granters are now out of business?
If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do
If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say.
If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can.
If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash.
If you think 10 human lives = 100 then you need the lesson more than I do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps you should read his post, I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I read it fine, I just reread it again. He's saying you can't compare human lives in terms of numbers. I'm saying you can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?
These terror groups aren't connected by nationalities or politics. They are connected by their religion and the ideals that stem from their religion. Therefore, they are ALL OVER the Middle East, receiving support or at least shelter from basically every country in the region. Basically, the only real way to stop terrorism -apart from invading and subduing <u>every friggin Muslim nation</u> - is to fight terrorists where they show themselves and hopefully intimidate the rest. At least that's what I think.
This guy needs to be gotten rid of... fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's <a href='http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089065409733&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724&tacodalogin=no' target='_blank'>this guy.</a>
Al Zaqari is the supposed leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. Although the evidence is good enough to believe that assumption to be true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn, why the hell would Saddam support them if they want his type of government gone? Saudi Arabia is the nation funneling them cash.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find any claim that Saudi Arabia is supporting terrorists to be rediculous. A very high secondary priority for al Qaeda (behind attacking American interests) is destabilizing the Saudi regime. It's a secular monarchy. That's right, secular. It is, however, a country with a great disparity of wealth and close to 50% unemployment. They do sponsor Madrasas, which are islamic religious schools which do a lot to encourage fundamentalist islamism. Does that mean they're sponsoring terrorism? No. They have said (and I believe) it's a case of fighting fire with fire (burn the underbrush and a major conflagration is less likely to erupt). In other words, it's likely that the high unemployment would create dissatisfaction that would drive the people towards fundamentalism anyway. This way at least they have their thumb on them and can more easily deal with problem cases.
Look at America. We have a secular government. Can you imagine "In God we trust" actually being taken off the money? Can you imagine non-Protestant presidents (with the exception of people from Massachusetts)? The answer is unfortunately no, because our democratic government is as much controlled by the masses as any autocratic government, albeit less violently so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the US troops responsible for 1000 deaths to save 100000 lifes? Or are they responsible for 10 deaths to safe 100 Lifes? Or do those numbers equal out? Or is it actually vice versa, have there been more people killed by US troops by now than there would have been under Saddam Hussein?
How many people have been killed in the WTC? 3000? And how many people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq by Us troops only? 20000? Does it equal out or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as the argument about the value of lives, all I have to say is if you don't believe 10 lives < 100 lives, more power to you. I think it's a noble sentiment not to place value on a human life. Just please, <i>please</i> don't go into government where you have to make those kind of pragmatic choices all the time. I'd rather have a cynic accountant than an idealist. I won't bother trying to argue whether or not the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan were right or wrong on this basis. Sounds like Sisyphus to me. I'll just say that although I may sometimes disagree with other people about their choices, I've never yet met a human who felt that what they were doing wasn't for the greater good of humanity, and at least that I can respect...
I think i covered it all =x
See look above it is a game!! Who cares who dies they are only numbers! They really aren't real people, well at least this is how Bush see's it. If he was actually present and witnessed the deaths of every single one of the marines/Iraqi's that were killed, and the families that were affected by them I am sure he would apoligize to America and pull out ASAP.
When you attack any country and occupy it, you are inherently creating insurgents and terrorists by doing such acts. The people won't negotiate with you because they have been invaded and the only way they can stop you is through terrorism. When you kill a kids Father who was defending Iraq from the "invaders" do you think he is going to love America?
Reasa, pulling out is not a stupid or ignorant thing to say, you yourself are calling yourself ignorant and stupid when you state something like that.
I am by no means a supporter of American militaristic moral standard, nor did I support the Americans unilateral war in Iraq in the first place, but you can not go into a country, create a power vaccume, and then pull out! There hasn't been a single instance in history where that kind of movement turned out for the best. Even in India, a land led by probably the most peaceful rights activist ever, the vacume left behind by the withdrawl of the British did nothing but cause mass bloodshed.
If America pulls out now there is only one viable sequence of events for the future of Iraq. The only existing power broker within Iraq (the exreamist anti American Muslims) takes power, they very likely annihilate all opposing factions to themselfs (shite, sunni or whatever, I don't know thier alighnment), and then they support continued terrorist attacks on the west with whatever funding they can muster. Remeber these guys are even more extreme then the Islamic government in Iran, they are beheading people for Gods sake. Contrary to the bizzare belive that the only cause of Iriqies hate for america is their current occupation of Iraq, in reality etreamist mulims have hundreds of points on which they defend thier belives, and simply pulling out is DEFINATELY NOT going to change anthing about what they intend to do to America given the chance.
I am by no means a supporter of American militaristic moral standard, nor did I support the Americans unilateral war in Iraq in the first place, but you can not go into a country, create a power vaccume, and then pull out! There hasn't been a single instance in history where that kind of movement turned out for the best. Even in India, a land led by probably the most peaceful rights activist ever, the vacume left behind by the withdrawl of the British did nothing but cause mass bloodshed.
If America pulls out now there is only one viable sequence of events for the future of Iraq. The only existing power broker within Iraq (the exreamist anti American Muslims) takes power, they very likely annihilate all opposing factions to themselfs (shite, sunni or whatever, I don't know thier alighnment), and then they support continued terrorist attacks on the west with whatever funding they can muster. Remeber these guys are even more extreme then the Islamic government in Iran, they are beheading people for Gods sake. Contrary to the bizzare belive that the only cause of Iriqies hate for america is their current occupation of Iraq, in reality etreamist mulims have hundreds of points on which they defend thier belives, and simply pulling out is DEFINATELY NOT going to change anthing about what they intend to do to America given the chance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You gotta realize that its gonna happen eventually when we do pull out. We handed the power over to the new government of Iraq(all who speak English), but we still control the defense of the country. We can set them up with defenses and all that stuff, but once we pull out the extremist groups will overthrow the Government and take it back.
This is a repeat in history, just look at the Vietnam War. When we eventually pulled out, we gave the South Vietnamese defense, training, guns, etc. What happened when we pulled out? The South Vietnamese dropped their weapons and surrendered. Did we accomplish anything in Vietnam? Yeah, losing 55,000 thousand American lives.
Thats what is gonna be remembered about this war(except the casualities will be a lot smaller but still unacceptable).