Unchain The Upgrades Type Ii
SmoodCroozn
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Another path.</div> Ever since 1.0, Flayra had implemented the system where upgrades had a level 1 to level 3 effectiveness. I find levels 1 and 2 rarely used at all and it is now just a waste of time and coding. Seeing as in most games, aliens usually get 3 of a chamber BEFORE getting an upgrade, I prepose my idea to be a solution to this.
Basically I am suggesting taking the idea of Unchaining chambers, EXCEPT that you can upgrade 1 path in the 3 areas (defense, movement, sensory). At hive 1, each upgrade will be at level 1 effectiveness. At hive 2, each upgrade will be at level 2 effectiveness. I bet you can see how hive 3 would work. Now your asking, wouldn't that unbalance the game? I believe it wouldn't as people had thought unchaining chambers did. In the regular NS way, you get 3 levels per upgrade, per hive. So this chart will show you that the levels are the same of upgrades
REGULAR NS
HIVE 1 - 3 points (D) = 3 points
HIVE 2 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) = 6 points
HIVE 3 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) + 3 points (S) = 9 points
HIVE BASED UPGRADE SYSTEM
HIVE 1 - 1 point (D) + 1 point (M) + (1) point (S) = 3 points
HIVE 2 - 2 points (D) + 2 points (M) + (2) points (S) = 6 points
HIVE 3 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) + (3) points (S) = 9 points
Another factor is that you had to spend only 2 res to get a level 3 upgrade in regular NS. What I propose is this: the first upgrade is free, regardless of type. The next 2 upgrade costs depend on how many hives you have. If you have one hive, both upgrades cost 1 each. At hive 2, both upgrades cost 2 each. Finally both upgrades cost 3 each at hive 3. What this also does is it actually gives a reason to upgrade on skulks which is another good thing.
Though people may complain that their level of an upgrade is lower than usually, it will help people utilize other strategies than originally, and allow a purpose for including 3 levels of upgrades. I don't know if this has been suggested before, I'm sorry if I had repeated someone elses post, though seeing unchained chambers receive so much popularity, maybe this might.
SUMMARY:
- Uses unchained system
- An upgrade is available in each of the 3 categories
- Level of upgrade is dependent on hives
- First upgrade free, next 2 cost depends on hive number (equation: hive number = upgrade cost after the first FREE one)
PROS:
+ use all 3 upgrade levels
+ gives skulks reason to upgrade
+ more variety which leads to different strategies
+ works just like zerg in SC, or all races in WC3
Basically I am suggesting taking the idea of Unchaining chambers, EXCEPT that you can upgrade 1 path in the 3 areas (defense, movement, sensory). At hive 1, each upgrade will be at level 1 effectiveness. At hive 2, each upgrade will be at level 2 effectiveness. I bet you can see how hive 3 would work. Now your asking, wouldn't that unbalance the game? I believe it wouldn't as people had thought unchaining chambers did. In the regular NS way, you get 3 levels per upgrade, per hive. So this chart will show you that the levels are the same of upgrades
REGULAR NS
HIVE 1 - 3 points (D) = 3 points
HIVE 2 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) = 6 points
HIVE 3 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) + 3 points (S) = 9 points
HIVE BASED UPGRADE SYSTEM
HIVE 1 - 1 point (D) + 1 point (M) + (1) point (S) = 3 points
HIVE 2 - 2 points (D) + 2 points (M) + (2) points (S) = 6 points
HIVE 3 - 3 points (D) + 3 points (M) + (3) points (S) = 9 points
Another factor is that you had to spend only 2 res to get a level 3 upgrade in regular NS. What I propose is this: the first upgrade is free, regardless of type. The next 2 upgrade costs depend on how many hives you have. If you have one hive, both upgrades cost 1 each. At hive 2, both upgrades cost 2 each. Finally both upgrades cost 3 each at hive 3. What this also does is it actually gives a reason to upgrade on skulks which is another good thing.
Though people may complain that their level of an upgrade is lower than usually, it will help people utilize other strategies than originally, and allow a purpose for including 3 levels of upgrades. I don't know if this has been suggested before, I'm sorry if I had repeated someone elses post, though seeing unchained chambers receive so much popularity, maybe this might.
SUMMARY:
- Uses unchained system
- An upgrade is available in each of the 3 categories
- Level of upgrade is dependent on hives
- First upgrade free, next 2 cost depends on hive number (equation: hive number = upgrade cost after the first FREE one)
PROS:
+ use all 3 upgrade levels
+ gives skulks reason to upgrade
+ more variety which leads to different strategies
+ works just like zerg in SC, or all races in WC3
Comments
Not as it is, no. I wouldn't say that. Levels 1 and 2 are, on the whole, craptastic. You'd have to tweak the 3 levels to get a good result from this system; you'd need the current level 3 at two hives, at least.
Not as it is, no. I wouldn't say that. Levels 1 and 2 are, on the whole, craptastic. You'd have to tweak the 3 levels to get a good result from this system; you'd need the current level 3 at two hives, at least. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, first of all, at Hive 1, RARELY any skulks use upgrades, I believe the first free upgrade will actually improve aliens in most part. When the later stages of hive 1 occur, this is when you need a fade right? Well, you may think he must be cruddy without L3 regen, but think about it, add focus, and celerity in the mix. As weak as skulks are now, the free upgrade will improve skulks to take on marines at hive 1, while other races can explore more upgrade directions, besides, I believe it makes the BEST use of the 3 levels per chamber system that the devs had implemented. The marines don't get armor 3 or wep 3 right away right?
SUMMARY:
- THE SKULKS WOULD GET A MAJOR BOOST
- OTHER LIFE FORMS WOULD GET TO EXPLORE OTHER STRATEGIES
- 3 LEVEL CHAMBER SYSTEM WOULD BE USED
The only way this would work is if you also rebalanced upgrade levels so that L1 is a bit below the current effectiveness, L2 is about equal and L3 is higher. That would be a reasonable tradeoff at hive 1, and hive 3 would get the boost it so desperately needs. Right now the reason the 3-tier upgrade system goes unused is because anything below level 3 is garbage, not because the upgrades are chained.
Scenario: If everyone decided to get cara for their skulk, this idea would effectively make the skulk armor 16.
Lesson: This idea would help the entire alien team rather focusing on a few, fade experts.
If you had tried this gameplay, then I would agree with your bashing. They said the same to unchained gameplay, but alas the game did not have aliens immediately owning the game, marines still could win. Perhaps I should suggest this to a coder...
However, you make a good point - the 3 level upgrade system is just as crappy. In fact, if there was only lvl 3 upgrades (still requiring 3 chambers), the game wouldn't be that different. A ridiculous waste of potential gameplay.
EDIT:
Nm, read the manual, but the fact is, why would Flayra introduce 3 levels of upgrades if they are not meant to be used?
Im a hive 3 onos. I get regeneration level 3, because all Onos need regen. I then get celerity level 3. Now I get cloaking level 1, because Onos only need to be cloaked once every while...not like skulks. I now have 5 points left. I get level 2 adrenaline, level 2 SoF, and level 1 carapace.
you are suggesting that über players overcome by start of the game with all kinds of uprgades...
wan't all upgrades? go combat!
did you ever started with mov chambers and overhauling the marines with silence? no? too bad...
play harded, go classic
My purpose for making this thread is to give Flayra's upgrade system of 3 levels a use for the level 1 and level 2 upgrades which are hardly used. If the devs spent their time working hard on that code, why should we let it go to waste right? If they made it to be used, shouldn't players use if after all? Combat gives the player to get all 9 upgrades, I am only suggesting the player get 1 each from the 3 categories, just like regular NS. Keep in mind, your example silence won't work at 100% effeciency since it is at level 1.
I know it might be hard to imagine a game with level 1 upgrades, since the way the game works right now encourages players to get level 3 of any chamber right away, but if you see it my way, level 1 upgrades might be used. Skulks will also get a reason to upgrade as well. I believe the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
The reason is that normally in clan matches aliens will get 1-4 fades before hive 2 is ready, so these fades would just die instantly if the comm has upgraded armory in ealry game so they can have hmg. And when fades come they usually have lvl 1 or 2 gun upgrade too. So Aliens dont stand a chanse if 5 marines just come to siege hive with hmg.
In combat:
Normal skulk dies in 9 lmg shots.
Carapase skulk dies in 13 lmg shots.
13-9 = 4 shots more which means that marine must hit skulk almost 50% more shots.
In Classic:
Carapase skulk with 3 hives dies in 16 lmg shots, without cara, it dies in 10 shots.
So In this case the marine must land over 50% more bullets in skulk.
Correct me if im wrong...
The reason is that normally in clan matches aliens will get 1-4 fades before hive 2 is ready, so these fades would just die instantly if the comm has upgraded armory in ealry game so they can have hmg. And when fades come they usually have lvl 1 or 2 gun upgrade too. So Aliens dont stand a chanse if 5 marines just come to siege hive with hmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying if they have an hmg, they automatically win? Don't forget that the aliens have 1 of each of the 9 traits and some of the level 1 abilities like focus and cloak can still be useful.
Think of it this way: if the devs DID implement level 1 and level 2 upgrades into the game, weren't they meant to be used at a certain point?
What we have here are mixed opinions, some who believe upgrades would be useless and a few that believe it maybe overpowered. Regardless of these opinions, I believe this system does solve the problem of level 1 and level 2 upgrades being neglected and being nothing more then a waste of coding and time.
There's no rule that each level has to go up proportionately.
It would take some playtesting to get the right values, yeah, but that's what these betas are for, right? To try and get the best result for the "final" version?
1) Apply Unchained Chambers
2) Removing levels of upgrades so that an upgrade was always at its current lvl 3 strength
3) No structure is required in order to get an upgrade and you get one upgrade per hive
4) The cost of the upgrades start off high and get reduced as hives get built (ie. 4-3-2) OR The cost of the upgrades start off at different costs depending on effectiveness and get reduced as hives get built (*** both points still debateable ***)
5) You can also get multiple upgrades from the same category if you so desired (Cara + Regen at Hive 2 for example)
6) Since the upgrades would no longer be tied to chambers their costs would be altered to reflect their relative tactical worth
7) If a hive goes down, you maintain the upgrades you have until you die
Some of the pros and cons:
1) +++ Addition of new upgrades and removal of upgrades would would let the devs not have to rely on the current 3 upgs / structure architecture (ie. possibly have 7 well configured and mixable upgrades)
2) +++ (a) Raised costs of upgrades in the beginning would prohibit excessive upgrading, however +++ (b) the overhead res cost of building the appropriate structures has been eliminated.
3) +++ Due to (2b) Gorges will be able to drop more res towers in a given amount of time and/or have a valid reason to invest in OCs to help defend existing res and hives
4) --- Lowered structure cost could lead to more entities being placed over time thus leading to lower server performance during the late-mid to late game
5) --- Sooner initial upgrade would mean greatly increased risk of early marine defeat... would definitely have to address strengths of some of the upgrades (Focus especially)
This is just what I can remember off the top of my head. There was mention of having a similar system to the one stated at the beginning of the thread, but some discussion (and quite a few mathematical equations later) basically concluded that the aliens would still end up a great deal weaker until Hive 3 came about where they would basically hit an equivalence level (or slightly greater power) to what the current Hive 3 situation is.
The system I propose actually grants a great deal of power to the aliens... especially during the early game. It would likeley have to be met with a few nerfs to alien abilities or buffs to marines. Either way it ends up still being an effective way to disassociate or "unchain" the upgrades to their respective chambers. You can still debate whether or not the system is actually "better" than the current system however. Even if it is a better system, we still have to get the devs to officially make the move towards unchained chambers... meaning any changes of this magnitude would likely be a ways off... if they come at all.
while i do like the idea, it seems like a lot of work and changes the game a lot...
smood...
i like this idea to but as said by others the 3 lvls would need to be changed. lvl 1 = useless even if you have 3 lvl 1 upgrades.
The current system is ok. Marines have the possibility to weaken the kharaas by killing their chambers.
Unchaining would be a nice addition and would kill the DMS-issue. Everything else is suggestable and worth a discussion, but I dont see any reasons to fit NS:Classic to NS:Combat. Choose between these 2 different gametypes and play the one you like best.
Not to forget: Plugins can do the job you want to, but dont force the whole NS community to obey your own rules.
NS stays like it is for beta5. Our new coders and devs will do in future time the job of adding features and balance changes. Your ideas get collected and nobody will forget em (believe me, there are now enough devs in the team that take care of this).
You "unchain the upgrades" idea is nice, but I can see a similar system in Combat-Mode and I dont like it.
I don´t want it for NS classic. So, that´s my opinion about this.
Well anyway, paladin nice idea, but I bet you would get more attention if you spawned your own thread, not to mention you're hijacking mine...
Littletoe, I am not too sure about level 1 upgrades being useless... I mean since people rarely have used it, how can you be so sure? Do you have a chart that can tell me the EXACT decrease of effectiveness in level 1 upgrades (the updated manual perhaps, but I can't find a link)? Upgrades like cloak would only take longer to cloak, but some upgrades like carapace would be pretty weak... but you get an upgrade for free though... Free is better than nothing am I right?
Schimmel, I understand that you dislike unchaining chambers, but Flayra intended the game to go in different ways, but seeing as only 1 way is truly viable, I believe his idea has failed. I personally believe that the unchained method is a bit too powerful, but however, it does solve the problem of the rigid DMS structure that makes NS lackluster and repetitive. I'm not forcing you to convert into my ways, I am just suggesting ideas, yes it can be turned down, but if there is a chance that it may actually help, then yes I will post it.
Seeing as my system is too complex... then I guess unchained is as good at it gets... Though it is a waste for coding 3 levels of upgrades... All that work for... nothing...
As for my posting that system proposition here vs. my own thread:
The thread has already come and gone and the only way to bring it back up is to do a mindless bump on the thread... which is generally frowned upon. Considering that the general topic at hand in this thread mirrored my previous thread I decided to post in an effort to get a single thread that covers more than one suggestion. In my opinion that is what truly sparks discussion. It is what makes be believe that I didn't hijack the thread in any way. The only thing that may have been hijacked was attention of your specific implementation... but then implementation is what we're discussing anyways. Had I posted something about bhopping being an exploit of some kind or some other unrelated info... THAT would have been a hijack.
As for the ease of coding up either implementation it is actually a fairly trivial process. An adminmod module could probably be whipped up in about a 1 to 1.5 weeks if they were serious enough about it. Of course what I consider trivial may not be trivial to others. I have to qualify my statements by saying that I'm a grad student in Computer Science and am currently writing my own high-performance OS from scratch. You might ask, "If its so trivial then why don't you do it yourself?" And that is a perfectly valid question to ask. The answer is that had I the time (grad school sucks) and the HL API knowledge I most certainly would. Perhaps I will take a more active modding role once I graduate and actually have a life again.
EDIT: Premature post... the rest follows
Smood, I wouldn't so easily give up on the 3 level system due simply to complexity. Sure it would be harder to balance considering all the different vairalbes and 'levels' of those variables, but that doesn't meant it isn't a worthwhile endeavor. Like some have said before, the current settings for each of the levels probably would lead it to failure, but that's what tweaking and balancing is for. I doubt the devs (should they ever implement this kind of system) would just throw it in and hope for the best as far as balance is concerned. They'd be testing it thoroughly and making the appropriate changes to make whatever system they create as balanced as possible (within the limits of having fun... ie. perfect balance is not necessarily fun).