Unchained chambers Ability to "over ride" previous upgrades (adaptation) Gorge cost 0 res removal of knockback - I once knocked back the same marine 2x in one kill. It was rather rediculous to see him fly ~50 feet in 2 bites (the third killed him) increase skulk base speed
removal of bunnyhopping (give real speed, not engine exploit speed) - I know that there are many 1337 bunnyhoppers who will complain a lot about this, but I can bunny hop, and I would rather see my team mates be more successful at the cost of me being able to hop down a hall way at a marine at an unusual pace. It is an engine exploit that envolves "skill" to use, but if marines loose knockback, aliens should be able to give that up.
fix shotgun blast (aim's incorrectly) give aliens the ability to jump off walls/ceiling. (not sure if it is possible)(would compensate for lack of bunnyhopping, and be more fun to boot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+Jun 23 2004, 04:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ Jun 23 2004, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, it will change the game in a positiv manner. Meaning that you can form squads of skulks with different upgrades, more variations and more tactics. What exactly will change in competitive game:
<b>1.)</b> Aliens will drop at first 1 sensory, so skulks and all units are able to use cloaking from the beginning on.
<b>2.)</b> When the hive is going up, 1 MC will be dropped at the main hive, so aliens would have a direct connection to the unbuild hive when it´s under attack.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens would build 3 DCs in order to support regeneration fades.
<b>4.)</b> If aliens get enough res, one gorge could set up 3 MCs to open the upgrade "celerity/adrenalin" for lerks.
In longer games, the aliens will drop more and more SCs at choke points to get more control in this areas. Gorges will still concentrate their resources for res nodes, so no early "walls of lame" will be created. At the moment it wouldn´t push the aliens that much, just because they are weaker than the marines at the moment. I don´t worry about any balance problems, just because of the fact:
<u>now it looks like this:</u> in early games: Marines > Aliens in mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (just because of fades and onos) in end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping, if aliens win, you know the scenario)
<u>Now, I hope so, it would look like this:</u> early games: Marines ~ Aliens (skulks with upgrade variations) mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (sensory choke points) end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do you take the extra 20 - 35 Ress from? Aliens have a hard time keeping their ress nodes up as it is right now, there certainly isn't ress left to drop a sens at the beginning .. withouth having a late hive / fade. The only change I personally would see, is that the skulk that drops the dcs / mcs will drop two mcs earlier, so they can teleport to that new hive.
Oh, and wall of lame? C'mon, we are talking about competitive clanplay, not about newbish public play (No, I'm not calling public play newbish, but there are certainly "good" and bad / newbish public games <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
<!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+Jun 23 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ Jun 23 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well, it will change the game in a positiv manner. Meaning that you can form squads of skulks with different upgrades, more variations and more tactics. What exactly will change in competitive game:
<b>1.)</b> Aliens will drop at first 1 sensory, so skulks and all units are able to use cloaking from the beginning on.
<b>2.)</b> When the hive is going up, 1 MC will be dropped at the main hive, so aliens would have a direct connection to the unbuild hive when it´s under attack.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens would build 3 DCs in order to support regeneration fades.
<b>4.)</b> If aliens get enough res, one gorge could set up 3 MCs to open the upgrade "celerity/adrenalin" for lerks.
In longer games, the aliens will drop more and more SCs at choke points to get more control in this areas. Gorges will still concentrate their resources for res nodes, so no early "walls of lame" will be created. At the moment it wouldn´t push the aliens that much, just because they are weaker than the marines at the moment. I don´t worry about any balance problems, just because of the fact:
<u>now it looks like this:</u> in early games: Marines > Aliens in mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (just because of fades and onos) in end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping, if aliens win, you know the scenario)
<u>Now, I hope so, it would look like this:</u> early games: Marines ~ Aliens (skulks with upgrade variations) mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (sensory choke points) end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are looking at unchainging the chambers in a 1 sided manner.
The last thing I want as a marine, is to be hit by a cara fade that I wont be able to kill if he's smart, but then have to deal with the lvl 3 focus skulk that's cloaking behind me. Focus itself is overpowered early game, which would dominate with a good cara fade, or even just a celerity or cara lerk that I won't be able to kill in more than one shot, unless I'm lucky, but then again just to deal with whatever may have focus to magically kill me in one bite.
Maybe it will be all fun and joyous for the new players and pubbers, but this is just one or two of the many situations that aliens could and most likely WILL be biased. Unchaining will need some PRIVATE playtesting done by real veteren clans/players, not be tested on a pub server and then voted upon, where the majority of the community are pubbers who don't plan on being competitive.
BRING BACK THE VET FORUMS!
edit: This wasn't off topic btw, it's stating my opinion of - what I expect of beta 5.
<!--QuoteBegin--|HN|-_Prodigy_+Jun 24 2004, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-|HN|-_Prodigy_ @ Jun 24 2004, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The last thing I want as a marine, is to be hit by a cara fade that I wont be able to kill if he's smart, but then have to deal with the lvl 3 focus skulk that's cloaking behind me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So don't play combat and that won't happen.
But let's just say you made a typo and totally forgot that even with unchained chambers, you still can't have a focus+cloak skulk. Let's assume you meant a focus/carapace skulk or some such. Here I would suggest that your problem isn't the unchained chambers so much as the fact that you've apparantly ramboed off on your own and are now having to deal with two aliens at once. The solution for this is simple.. stick with your danged team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus itself is overpowered early game, which would dominate with a good cara fade, or even just a celerity or cara lerk that I won't be able to kill in more than one shot, unless I'm lucky, but then again just to deal with whatever may have focus to magically kill me in one bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we see sensory so often as the first chamber in chained games.. because the overpoweredness of focus leads aliens to the quick and early win, right? Hmm.. maybe it's not overpowered after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe it will be all fun and joyous for the new players and pubbers, but this is just one or two of the many situations that aliens could and most likely WILL be biased. Unchaining will need some PRIVATE playtesting done by real veteren clans/players, not be tested on a pub server and then voted upon, where the majority of the community are pubbers who don't plan on being competitive.
BRING BACK THE VET FORUMS! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh oh.. now you've done it.. "could and most likely will", you're just advertising that you haven't actually tried it and begging for the big yellow text there, aren't you?
However, I do agree that some playtesting by highly skilled players would certainly be in order. Just make sure that they test for enough time to actually have a chance to develop some new strategies when they realize the old ones aren't working so well any more.
After all, it's Natural Selection. I'm sure the pros can adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Jun 23 2004, 11:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Jun 23 2004, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--|HN|-_Prodigy_+Jun 24 2004, 12:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-|HN|-_Prodigy_ @ Jun 24 2004, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The last thing I want as a marine, is to be hit by a cara fade that I wont be able to kill if he's smart, but then have to deal with the lvl 3 focus skulk that's cloaking behind me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So don't play combat and that won't happen.
But let's just say you made a typo and totally forgot that even with unchained chambers, you still can't have a focus+cloak skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If there is a sensory chamber nearby, the skulk can have focus <i>and</i> be cloaked.
<!--QuoteBegin-sk84zer0+Jun 24 2004, 01:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sk84zer0 @ Jun 24 2004, 01:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we need the vet forums back so ns doesnt become a pub game only <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But wait, that's why we have the PT forums!
I think the change I would like to see most (besides unchaining) is having gorges cost 0 res. This is why. Right now there is a lot of "wasted res" on the alien side. On the marine side, res is good, even down to the last 5-10 res. The commander can use it all. Aliens, on the other hand, need a minimum of 20 res to do any good for their team (drop 1 chamber).
I know that I like to spend most of the game as a skulk. However, there are plenty of times wehn I save up, and go gorge to build, then return to skulk. I wish my team wasn't penalized that extra ten res every time I decided to do that. Think of how different it would be if hives cost 40 res, not 50 - or res nodes cost 15 instead of 25, or any chamber (or set of 3 chambers) cost 10-30 res, not 20-60.
That would be the biggest re-balancing factor I could imagine.
man... i iss the 1.0 fade where it didnt use blink really. And it was more of a shock trooper than a pansy hit and runalien. Oh and i also remember when a Onos couldnt die from less than 125 bullets. But that was when NS seemed to be fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--|HN|-_Prodigy_+Jun 23 2004, 08:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-|HN|-_Prodigy_ @ Jun 23 2004, 08:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, cloaking needs to make a skulk completely invisible, then there will be no room for people to say "I saw you." when you magically get pistol sniped across a hallway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I never did understand why that was changed. Was cloaking overpowered or something?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus itself is overpowered early game, which would dominate with a good cara fade, or even just a celerity or cara lerk that I won't be able to kill in more than one shot, unless I'm lucky, but then again just to deal with whatever may have focus to magically kill me in one bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why we see sensory so often as the first chamber in chained games.. because the overpoweredness of focus leads aliens to the quick and early win, right? Hmm.. maybe it's not overpowered after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People choose not to do sensory first because the main trait of sensory is cloaking, but for some unknown reason, the marines can always seem to accidently bump into our cloaked sensory chamber that was on 3 boxes and shoved up an elephant's ****, but it gets found. So therefor, that room probably being a chokepoint in the map, (which is where they always seem to be found) you 1) lost cloaking in that room, 2) lost lvl 3 focus (if you even had it), and 3) Now have a weird suspicion of whomever saw a perfectly still sensory chamber, and frankly don't feel like finishing the match knowing he can see cloakers, because your entire strat is now ruined.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After all, it's Natural Selection. I'm sure the pros can adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've been adapting since we were told it took 9 bullets to kill a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the change I would like to see most (besides unchaining) is having gorges cost 0 res. This is why. Right now there is a lot of "wasted res" on the alien side. On the marine side, res is good, even down to the last 5-10 res. The commander can use it all. Aliens, on the other hand, need a minimum of 20 res to do any good for their team (drop 1 chamber). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh... A main strategy of Natural-Selection is to kill the beginning gorges, in hopes that the opposing team doesn't get their node up, allowing time for marines to get upgrades before the other team gets fades. You shouldn't be able to kill a teams perma or temp gorge 10 times in a row, just to have the gorge still be able to drop a node, and possibly one more now.
I understand your point about having a strategy that kills gorges early game to cripple the alien opponents. I agree - it is a great strat, and should not be removed - BUT
Gorges should still cost 0 res. your strategy still remains. Killing gorges cripples the alien team, but not as bad. Now, killing a gorge is like loosing an early IP or armory. There is almost no coming back. If gorges were free, there would still be coming back, but there would be loss too - not financial, but in time. for every gorge you kill, it is at least 1-2 minutes before an rt gets put up (or whatever chamber).
Think of it this way - a lone marine building an rt gets killed. Well, you loose 15 res (assuming no recycle) and 1 marine.
If a lone gorge gets killed, you loose 10 res for the gorge, 10 more if he wants to become a gorge again, plus 15 for a res node (assuming he built it and it dies too).
That is 35 res compared to 15. That is why gorges should be free. In marine terms, that is 3 shotguns and a pack of mines. So defend your base, and go gorge hunting all.
First off, 100% cloak doesn't make sense. A biological cloak WOULD have a slight distortion in decently lit areas, especially if the alien was moving.
List of beta 5 things:
1.) The bug in marine knockback (it IS getting removed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) 2.) Gorge costs 0. 3.) Skulk costs 0. 4.) Unchain chambers. 5.) Add 100 HP and 200 AP to default Onos. 6.) Skulk has 20 AP, instead of 10.
At this point, the game is unbalanced in favor of marines. That's why I only listed alien things I'd like to see. There are marine improvements, I'm just too lazy to type them.
you know how u say people can bumb into invisable objects and find them like the chambers. Well if your like me and have the worlds most screwed up gamma and vid card you can see invisable aliens. Like they will be running in the hallway in a staight line cause they think i cant see em and ill pistol snipe em. I see invisables almost perfectly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Locking ex_interp at 0 is a bad idea. I play way better with the default 0.1 then letting it assign automatically(IE blocky movement)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as I know, ex_interp is locked at 0.1 anyway, so changing it to 0 shouldn't be doing much. Plus, read this doc.
It explains that cl_updaterate is the number of packets you recieve from the server per second. So, you recieve that number of packets per second, and unless you have it set higher than your FPS, the models will skip around. Every update will bring the models to their correctly updated positions, but there will be a fraction of a second in between updates where the models are out of date.
Ex_interp attempts to fix that. Ex_interp is the amount of seconds where the interpolation engine is doing its thing in between updates. It doesn't beat getting packets from the server, but it does a very fine job keeping your models where they should be. When ex_interp is set to 0, it automatically sets itself to 1/cl_updaterate, which will be exactly the amount of time in between packets.
If you are experiencing jumpy models after ex_interp is set to zero (which should hopefully come with B5), increase cl_updaterate. Otherwise, um, your copy of Half-life is borked. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sgt.zen+Jun 24 2004, 05:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sgt.zen @ Jun 24 2004, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you know how u say people can bumb into invisable objects and find them like the chambers. Well if your like me and have the worlds most screwed up gamma and vid card you can see invisable aliens. Like they will be running in the hallway in a staight line cause they think i cant see em and ill pistol snipe em. I see invisables almost perfectly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Either that or you're lamberting in this completely unprotected game.
I expect to see vac as well soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as I know, ex_interp is locked at 0.1 anyway, so changing it to 0 shouldn't be doing much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... You obviously don't realize that changing ex_interp to 0 automatically resets the interp to 1/updaterate. So if you play with 101 updaterate .. then locking interp to 0 will make on hell of a difference, because your interp will now be .009, which is MUCH different than .01.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are experiencing jumpy models after ex_interp is set to zero (which should hopefully come with B5), increase cl_updaterate. Otherwise, um, your copy of Half-life is borked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well... You obviously don't realize that changing ex_interp to 0 automatically resets the interp to 1/updaterate. So if you play with 101 updaterate .. then locking interp to 0 will make on hell of a difference, because your interp will now be .009, which is MUCH different than .01.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm pretty sure that ex_interp was locked to .01 for this version (which the devs are going set to 0 for B5, I hope), so you couldn't change it. If you were actually able to set it to 0, then there would be a significant change, as you mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You mean lower it, I hope. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hm? Think about an extreme example to put it in perspective. If cl_updaterate is set to 1, then you'll get one update every second. So, every second, you will recieve an update, and ex_interp will interpolate, but by the time you recieve the next update, most of the palyers had chaged their velocities or direction, causing the models to jump from Half-life's guess to the actual position. However, if it's set to 120, every frame on your computer puts out will be accurate to the server data, resulting in no jumps.
Of course, if you're having ping problems, then you would have to LOWER cl_updaterate (like you said), because increasing it would make things worse.
<!--QuoteBegin-Diablus+Jun 24 2004, 06:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Jun 24 2004, 06:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> man... i iss the 1.0 fade where it didnt use blink really. And it was more of a shock trooper than a pansy hit and runalien. Oh and i also remember when a Onos couldnt die from less than 125 bullets. But that was when NS seemed to be fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's because marines that shot at them didn't actually hit them, because their hitboxes were screwed up.
Although I didn't see it, this may have been posted before.
What I would really like to see in the next patch is a fix for the fade's blink/ladder problem that anyone who fades has ran into. It's a pain in the **** to get stuck to ladders while trying to blink in and out of ms and the comm chair on kestrel, nearly everywhere on caged, and just about any other map with ladders.
I'm not quite sure on a fix for this problem that wouldn't pose new problems or basically not help at all.
One way would be to allow fades to use ladders as is, but as soon as the blink attack is used it would let loose of the ladder to allow you to slip past. This still may be a problem because that first blink would still stick you to the ladder.
Another solution may be to make fades lerk-like in the way that they cannot use the ladders at all. Although this would help for *some* situations, I think it would do more bad than good. I'm not going to go into much more detail into this because it's pretty much self explanitory
If anyone has any suggestions for this, post away.
<!--QuoteBegin-ChanM+Jun 25 2004, 06:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ChanM @ Jun 25 2004, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If gorges cost zero res you will see so many marine rts going down with bilebomb. Once that second hive goes up there will be endless bilebombs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> and why is that a bad thing?
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 25 2004, 11:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 25 2004, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ChanM+Jun 25 2004, 06:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ChanM @ Jun 25 2004, 06:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If gorges cost zero res you will see so many marine rts going down with bilebomb. Once that second hive goes up there will be endless bilebombs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and why is that a bad thing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with coris, with aliens get 2 hives they should bemore powerfull and taking down rts with gorges is <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>easy</span> to counter sg hmg anyone? don't even need them lmg pistol gl..knife!
<ul><li>Catalyst research moved to Armory/CC</li><li>Posthuminous XP - While corpse is still present, you recieve XP like normal - encourages combat teamwork</li><li>Ns_hera fixed</li><li>General Balence Tweaks</li></ul>
<!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Jun 26 2004, 08:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Jun 26 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do I expect of Beta 5?
I'd just be happy if there <b>was</b> a Beta 5. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Careful, that's what we all said about beta 4. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really. I find your chanlog a bit........well, disrespective(sic) to the creators. Come on, they have worked hard on what we are playing. Give them a break. core and agora are two top-notch maps, esp. agora.
A lot fo your ideas kinda suck too. Bring back advanced hivetisght instead of sof!!! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> SoF is way more useful tbh. I think all aliens should get adv. hivesight for free.
Stop beeing a ****, the maps are great.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though you are trolling, I'll still tell you that pointing out a map is imbalanced isn't a form of disrespect. Agora is an all-marine map. The huge rooms and long hallways with minimal cover completely screw the aliens. Play it for once and you'll see for yourself.
Hmm maybe: 1. Changelog and update on site lists fixes and not bugs in the game like last few times 2. Skulk armor increase to 20 3. Serveral bug fixes with no extra bugs with that 4. Dark ns maps again like 1.04,2.0,3.0b1-3 5. Good old ns sounds from 1.04 and 2.0 6. Made marine less overpowering and made commanders have serveral more options to choose from . 7. New exciting things added: Lerk spikes are back and are in slot 2 so this is the first alien to have 5 attacks in the game, this will be in the game until further notice of changes that will need to be done. Offense chambers now damage 25 damage from 20. Turrets now have an upgrade for a tiny bit of extra damage. Sensory chambers now give bigger range in minimap of marines. 8. Marine buildings cost slightly decrease. 9. Huge map changes for more balance features 10. Combat bugs fix with balance 11. Siege cannons now do less damage, cost less, aren't useful for killing hives anymore, and very useful for clearing rooms.
Ok the things that I would want the most is number 1,2,3,4,5, and 7.
Comments
Unchained chambers
Ability to "over ride" previous upgrades (adaptation)
Gorge cost 0 res
removal of knockback
- I once knocked back the same marine 2x in one kill. It was rather rediculous to see him fly ~50 feet in 2 bites (the third killed him)
increase skulk base speed
removal of bunnyhopping (give real speed, not engine exploit speed)
- I know that there are many 1337 bunnyhoppers who will complain a lot about this, but I can bunny hop, and I would rather see my team mates be more successful at the cost of me being able to hop down a hall way at a marine at an unusual pace. It is an engine exploit that envolves "skill" to use, but if marines loose knockback, aliens should be able to give that up.
fix shotgun blast (aim's incorrectly)
give aliens the ability to jump off walls/ceiling. (not sure if it is possible)(would compensate for lack of bunnyhopping, and be more fun to boot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Those are my big gripes.
<b>1.)</b> Aliens will drop at first 1 sensory, so skulks and all units are able to use cloaking from the beginning on.
<b>2.)</b> When the hive is going up, 1 MC will be dropped at the main hive, so aliens would have a direct connection to the unbuild hive when it´s under attack.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens would build 3 DCs in order to support regeneration fades.
<b>4.)</b> If aliens get enough res, one gorge could set up 3 MCs to open the upgrade "celerity/adrenalin" for lerks.
In longer games, the aliens will drop more and more SCs at choke points to get more control in this areas. Gorges will still concentrate their resources for res nodes, so no early "walls of lame" will be created.
At the moment it wouldn´t push the aliens that much, just because they are weaker than the marines at the moment. I don´t worry about any balance problems, just because of the fact:
<u>now it looks like this:</u>
in early games: Marines > Aliens
in mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (just because of fades and onos)
in end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping, if aliens win, you know the scenario)
<u>Now, I hope so, it would look like this:</u>
early games: Marines ~ Aliens (skulks with upgrade variations)
mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (sensory choke points)
end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you take the extra 20 - 35 Ress from? Aliens have a hard time keeping their ress nodes up as it is right now, there certainly isn't ress left to drop a sens at the beginning .. withouth having a late hive / fade. The only change I personally would see, is that the skulk that drops the dcs / mcs will drop two mcs earlier, so they can teleport to that new hive.
Oh, and wall of lame? C'mon, we are talking about competitive clanplay, not about newbish public play (No, I'm not calling public play newbish, but there are certainly "good" and bad / newbish public games <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
<b>1.)</b> Aliens will drop at first 1 sensory, so skulks and all units are able to use cloaking from the beginning on.
<b>2.)</b> When the hive is going up, 1 MC will be dropped at the main hive, so aliens would have a direct connection to the unbuild hive when it´s under attack.
<b>3.)</b> Aliens would build 3 DCs in order to support regeneration fades.
<b>4.)</b> If aliens get enough res, one gorge could set up 3 MCs to open the upgrade "celerity/adrenalin" for lerks.
In longer games, the aliens will drop more and more SCs at choke points to get more control in this areas. Gorges will still concentrate their resources for res nodes, so no early "walls of lame" will be created.
At the moment it wouldn´t push the aliens that much, just because they are weaker than the marines at the moment. I don´t worry about any balance problems, just because of the fact:
<u>now it looks like this:</u>
in early games: Marines > Aliens
in mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (just because of fades and onos)
in end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping, if aliens win, you know the scenario)
<u>Now, I hope so, it would look like this:</u>
early games: Marines ~ Aliens (skulks with upgrade variations)
mid games: Marines ~ Aliens (sensory choke points)
end games: Marines > Aliens (base camping) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are looking at unchainging the chambers in a 1 sided manner.
The last thing I want as a marine, is to be hit by a cara fade that I wont be able to kill if he's smart, but then have to deal with the lvl 3 focus skulk that's cloaking behind me. Focus itself is overpowered early game, which would dominate with a good cara fade, or even just a celerity or cara lerk that I won't be able to kill in more than one shot, unless I'm lucky, but then again just to deal with whatever may have focus to magically kill me in one bite.
Maybe it will be all fun and joyous for the new players and pubbers, but this is just one or two of the many situations that aliens could and most likely WILL be biased. Unchaining will need some PRIVATE playtesting done by real veteren clans/players, not be tested on a pub server and then voted upon, where the majority of the community are pubbers who don't plan on being competitive.
BRING BACK THE VET FORUMS!
edit: This wasn't off topic btw, it's stating my opinion of - what I expect of beta 5.
So don't play combat and that won't happen.
But let's just say you made a typo and totally forgot that even with unchained chambers, you still can't have a focus+cloak skulk. Let's assume you meant a focus/carapace skulk or some such. Here I would suggest that your problem isn't the unchained chambers so much as the fact that you've apparantly ramboed off on your own and are now having to deal with two aliens at once. The solution for this is simple.. stick with your danged team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Focus itself is overpowered early game, which would dominate with a good cara fade, or even just a celerity or cara lerk that I won't be able to kill in more than one shot, unless I'm lucky, but then again just to deal with whatever may have focus to magically kill me in one bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why we see sensory so often as the first chamber in chained games.. because the overpoweredness of focus leads aliens to the quick and early win, right? Hmm.. maybe it's not overpowered after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe it will be all fun and joyous for the new players and pubbers, but this is just one or two of the many situations that aliens could and most likely WILL be biased. Unchaining will need some PRIVATE playtesting done by real veteren clans/players, not be tested on a pub server and then voted upon, where the majority of the community are pubbers who don't plan on being competitive.
BRING BACK THE VET FORUMS!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh oh.. now you've done it.. "could and most likely will", you're just advertising that you haven't actually tried it and begging for the big yellow text there, aren't you?
However, I do agree that some playtesting by highly skilled players would certainly be in order. Just make sure that they test for enough time to actually have a chance to develop some new strategies when they realize the old ones aren't working so well any more.
After all, it's Natural Selection. I'm sure the pros can adapt.
So don't play combat and that won't happen.
But let's just say you made a typo and totally forgot that even with unchained chambers, you still can't have a focus+cloak skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is a sensory chamber nearby, the skulk can have focus <i>and</i> be cloaked.
But wait, that's why we have the PT forums!
...oh... wait a second...
I know that I like to spend most of the game as a skulk. However, there are plenty of times wehn I save up, and go gorge to build, then return to skulk. I wish my team wasn't penalized that extra ten res every time I decided to do that. Think of how different it would be if hives cost 40 res, not 50 - or res nodes cost 15 instead of 25, or any chamber (or set of 3 chambers) cost 10-30 res, not 20-60.
That would be the biggest re-balancing factor I could imagine.
I never did understand why that was changed. Was cloaking overpowered or something?
Which is why we see sensory so often as the first chamber in chained games.. because the overpoweredness of focus leads aliens to the quick and early win, right? Hmm.. maybe it's not overpowered after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People choose not to do sensory first because the main trait of sensory is cloaking, but for some unknown reason, the marines can always seem to accidently bump into our cloaked sensory chamber that was on 3 boxes and shoved up an elephant's ****, but it gets found. So therefor, that room probably being a chokepoint in the map, (which is where they always seem to be found) you 1) lost cloaking in that room, 2) lost lvl 3 focus (if you even had it), and 3) Now have a weird suspicion of whomever saw a perfectly still sensory chamber, and frankly don't feel like finishing the match knowing he can see cloakers, because your entire strat is now ruined.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After all, it's Natural Selection. I'm sure the pros can adapt.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've been adapting since we were told it took 9 bullets to kill a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think the change I would like to see most (besides unchaining) is having gorges cost 0 res. This is why. Right now there is a lot of "wasted res" on the alien side. On the marine side, res is good, even down to the last 5-10 res. The commander can use it all. Aliens, on the other hand, need a minimum of 20 res to do any good for their team (drop 1 chamber). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigh... A main strategy of Natural-Selection is to kill the beginning gorges, in hopes that the opposing team doesn't get their node up, allowing time for marines to get upgrades before the other team gets fades. You shouldn't be able to kill a teams perma or temp gorge 10 times in a row, just to have the gorge still be able to drop a node, and possibly one more now.
Gorges should still cost 0 res. your strategy still remains. Killing gorges cripples the alien team, but not as bad. Now, killing a gorge is like loosing an early IP or armory. There is almost no coming back. If gorges were free, there would still be coming back, but there would be loss too - not financial, but in time. for every gorge you kill, it is at least 1-2 minutes before an rt gets put up (or whatever chamber).
Think of it this way - a lone marine building an rt gets killed. Well, you loose 15 res (assuming no recycle) and 1 marine.
If a lone gorge gets killed, you loose 10 res for the gorge, 10 more if he wants to become a gorge again, plus 15 for a res node (assuming he built it and it dies too).
That is 35 res compared to 15. That is why gorges should be free. In marine terms, that is 3 shotguns and a pack of mines. So defend your base, and go gorge hunting all.
List of beta 5 things:
1.) The bug in marine knockback (it IS getting removed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
2.) Gorge costs 0.
3.) Skulk costs 0.
4.) Unchain chambers.
5.) Add 100 HP and 200 AP to default Onos.
6.) Skulk has 20 AP, instead of 10.
At this point, the game is unbalanced in favor of marines. That's why I only listed alien things I'd like to see. There are marine improvements, I'm just too lazy to type them.
As far as I know, ex_interp is locked at 0.1 anyway, so changing it to 0 shouldn't be doing much. Plus, read this doc.
It explains that cl_updaterate is the number of packets you recieve from the server per second. So, you recieve that number of packets per second, and unless you have it set higher than your FPS, the models will skip around. Every update will bring the models to their correctly updated positions, but there will be a fraction of a second in between updates where the models are out of date.
Ex_interp attempts to fix that. Ex_interp is the amount of seconds where the interpolation engine is doing its thing in between updates. It doesn't beat getting packets from the server, but it does a very fine job keeping your models where they should be. When ex_interp is set to 0, it automatically sets itself to 1/cl_updaterate, which will be exactly the amount of time in between packets.
If you are experiencing jumpy models after ex_interp is set to zero (which should hopefully come with B5), increase cl_updaterate. Otherwise, um, your copy of Half-life is borked. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Either that or you're lamberting in this completely unprotected game.
I expect to see vac as well soon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as I know, ex_interp is locked at 0.1 anyway, so changing it to 0 shouldn't be doing much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... You obviously don't realize that changing ex_interp to 0 automatically resets the interp to 1/updaterate. So if you play with 101 updaterate .. then locking interp to 0 will make on hell of a difference, because your interp will now be .009, which is MUCH different than .01.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are experiencing jumpy models after ex_interp is set to zero (which should hopefully come with B5), increase cl_updaterate. Otherwise, um, your copy of Half-life is borked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean lower it, I hope.
I'm pretty sure that ex_interp was locked to .01 for this version (which the devs are going set to 0 for B5, I hope), so you couldn't change it. If you were actually able to set it to 0, then there would be a significant change, as you mentioned.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You mean lower it, I hope. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm? Think about an extreme example to put it in perspective. If cl_updaterate is set to 1, then you'll get one update every second. So, every second, you will recieve an update, and ex_interp will interpolate, but by the time you recieve the next update, most of the palyers had chaged their velocities or direction, causing the models to jump from Half-life's guess to the actual position. However, if it's set to 120, every frame on your computer puts out will be accurate to the server data, resulting in no jumps.
Of course, if you're having ping problems, then you would have to LOWER cl_updaterate (like you said), because increasing it would make things worse.
That's because marines that shot at them didn't actually hit them, because their hitboxes were screwed up.
What I would really like to see in the next patch is a fix for the fade's blink/ladder problem that anyone who fades has ran into. It's a pain in the **** to get stuck to ladders while trying to blink in and out of ms and the comm chair on kestrel, nearly everywhere on caged, and just about any other map with ladders.
I'm not quite sure on a fix for this problem that wouldn't pose new problems or basically not help at all.
One way would be to allow fades to use ladders as is, but as soon as the blink attack is used it would let loose of the ladder to allow you to slip past. This still may be a problem because that first blink would still stick you to the ladder.
Another solution may be to make fades lerk-like in the way that they cannot use the ladders at all. Although this would help for *some* situations, I think it would do more bad than good. I'm not going to go into much more detail into this because it's pretty much self explanitory
If anyone has any suggestions for this, post away.
and why is that a bad thing?
and why is that a bad thing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with coris, with aliens get 2 hives they should bemore powerfull and taking down rts with gorges is <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>easy</span> to counter sg hmg anyone? don't even need them lmg pistol gl..knife!
I'd just be happy if there <b>was</b> a Beta 5.
I'd just be happy if there <b>was</b> a Beta 5. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Careful, that's what we all said about beta 4. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
core and agora are two top-notch maps, esp. agora.
A lot fo your ideas kinda suck too. Bring back advanced hivetisght instead of sof!!! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> SoF is way more useful tbh. I think all aliens should get adv. hivesight for free.
Stop beeing a ****, the maps are great.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Though you are trolling, I'll still tell you that pointing out a map is imbalanced isn't a form of disrespect. Agora is an all-marine map. The huge rooms and long hallways with minimal cover completely screw the aliens. Play it for once and you'll see for yourself.
1. Changelog and update on site lists fixes and not bugs in the game like last few times
2. Skulk armor increase to 20
3. Serveral bug fixes with no extra bugs with that
4. Dark ns maps again like 1.04,2.0,3.0b1-3
5. Good old ns sounds from 1.04 and 2.0
6. Made marine less overpowering and made commanders have serveral more options to choose from .
7. New exciting things added: Lerk spikes are back and are in slot 2 so this is the first alien to have 5 attacks in the game, this will be in the game until further notice of changes that will need to be done. Offense chambers now damage 25 damage from 20. Turrets now have an upgrade for a tiny bit of extra damage. Sensory chambers now give bigger range in minimap of marines.
8. Marine buildings cost slightly decrease.
9. Huge map changes for more balance features
10. Combat bugs fix with balance
11. Siege cannons now do less damage, cost less, aren't useful for killing hives anymore, and very useful for clearing rooms.
Ok the things that I would want the most is number 1,2,3,4,5, and 7.