Of Res Towers And Fades
comrade
Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members
<u>The state of the game at the moment is this:</u><ul><li>Marines attack alien towers. Aliens defend.
</li><li>If aliens effectively defend their towers they try and hold back the next wave or marines until fades are up.
</li><li>If aliens lose a node they fall back to their next (and usually last, outside the hive) node. With the first node down aliens are greatly hindered as it takes them longer to get fades.
</li><li>If the second node is taken down then it takes the aliens so long to get fades then the marines will have greatly outrun them in the techrace.
</li><li>Once fades go up this gives the aliens a small amount of time to claw back their advantage as the fades absolutely own marines and can easily be everywhere at once using blink.
During this time skulks can try to take out the marine towers while the fades distract the marines by denying them access to areas and distracting any outposts they have.
At this point in the game the two teams are about evenly balanced <b>if</b> the fades don't die and can continue the state of area denial/destroying nodes.
This "midgame" solely depends on the fades ability to kill marines and can sometime hinge on whether a fade gets stuck on a corner or not. This is obviously not the way the game should be played.</li></ul>
<u><b>Why</b> is the game like this?</u>
Simple. It's because marines do not have to worry about their res towers going down, allowing them to be on an all-out offensive <b>all</b> the time, while losing an alien res tower can cost them the game.
Marine resource towers take so long to eat as a skulk/fade that a marine on the other side of most maps can reach there before you have killed it but alien RTs?
One knifing marine can take out an alien resource tower in a <b>very</b> short amount of time compared to one skulk eating a marine tower. This coupled with the fact that marine resource towers are so easily replaceable by the commander compared to how much of an investment building another RT is for someone on the alien team.
An alien must save 25 res, find a safe place to gorge then attempt to build the node. If the commander spots this gorge (which it is very easy to do using sound) then the gorge will need 2+ skulks to help defend him from one marine and even then the lone marine can win with comm support. Think about this. <i>HALF</i> an alien team needed to defend a res tower from <i>ONE</i> marine. And because marines don't have to worry about their res nodes as much as aliens (while continually teching, I might add) almost all of the marine team can attack one or two resource nodes at once, easily overpowering early game aliens.
As I stated before, the game hinges on the ability of fades to push back the marines and those one or two players who fade decide the fate of the game. Unless I am very much mistaken this is a team game where a team effort is meant to count. If this is so then why are fades absolutely needed to stay alive and harass marines?
<b><u>What</b> can be done?</u>
Well, I propose to lower the cost of gorging and the cost of alien resource towers as well as lowering the amount of time it takes for a skulk to eat a marine resource tower.
This will remove the stress placed on the alien team to defend their resource nodes as zealously while adding a pressure to the marines by making them actually have to look after their resource towers and essentially balancing out the resource tower situation.
This of course removes from the importance of the fades, meaning the game does not hinge on whether a fade got stuck on a doorway and allowing the alien team to recover easier.
Of course, the fade will have to be toned down somewhat as they positively destroy marines at the moment. Perhaps a weakened version of the fade that costs 40 res? This would be an easily reachable target.
Input welcome <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
</li><li>If aliens effectively defend their towers they try and hold back the next wave or marines until fades are up.
</li><li>If aliens lose a node they fall back to their next (and usually last, outside the hive) node. With the first node down aliens are greatly hindered as it takes them longer to get fades.
</li><li>If the second node is taken down then it takes the aliens so long to get fades then the marines will have greatly outrun them in the techrace.
</li><li>Once fades go up this gives the aliens a small amount of time to claw back their advantage as the fades absolutely own marines and can easily be everywhere at once using blink.
During this time skulks can try to take out the marine towers while the fades distract the marines by denying them access to areas and distracting any outposts they have.
At this point in the game the two teams are about evenly balanced <b>if</b> the fades don't die and can continue the state of area denial/destroying nodes.
This "midgame" solely depends on the fades ability to kill marines and can sometime hinge on whether a fade gets stuck on a corner or not. This is obviously not the way the game should be played.</li></ul>
<u><b>Why</b> is the game like this?</u>
Simple. It's because marines do not have to worry about their res towers going down, allowing them to be on an all-out offensive <b>all</b> the time, while losing an alien res tower can cost them the game.
Marine resource towers take so long to eat as a skulk/fade that a marine on the other side of most maps can reach there before you have killed it but alien RTs?
One knifing marine can take out an alien resource tower in a <b>very</b> short amount of time compared to one skulk eating a marine tower. This coupled with the fact that marine resource towers are so easily replaceable by the commander compared to how much of an investment building another RT is for someone on the alien team.
An alien must save 25 res, find a safe place to gorge then attempt to build the node. If the commander spots this gorge (which it is very easy to do using sound) then the gorge will need 2+ skulks to help defend him from one marine and even then the lone marine can win with comm support. Think about this. <i>HALF</i> an alien team needed to defend a res tower from <i>ONE</i> marine. And because marines don't have to worry about their res nodes as much as aliens (while continually teching, I might add) almost all of the marine team can attack one or two resource nodes at once, easily overpowering early game aliens.
As I stated before, the game hinges on the ability of fades to push back the marines and those one or two players who fade decide the fate of the game. Unless I am very much mistaken this is a team game where a team effort is meant to count. If this is so then why are fades absolutely needed to stay alive and harass marines?
<b><u>What</b> can be done?</u>
Well, I propose to lower the cost of gorging and the cost of alien resource towers as well as lowering the amount of time it takes for a skulk to eat a marine resource tower.
This will remove the stress placed on the alien team to defend their resource nodes as zealously while adding a pressure to the marines by making them actually have to look after their resource towers and essentially balancing out the resource tower situation.
This of course removes from the importance of the fades, meaning the game does not hinge on whether a fade got stuck on a doorway and allowing the alien team to recover easier.
Of course, the fade will have to be toned down somewhat as they positively destroy marines at the moment. Perhaps a weakened version of the fade that costs 40 res? This would be an easily reachable target.
Input welcome <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I think it has a lot to do with the blink system at the moment, I just feel like the fade isn't fufilling a role and tends to be the hingepoint of entire game, i mean c'mon, there's so much more options open in ns, and most of them don't see the light of day.
Solution:
--Listen to attack warnings for aliens (they are really helpful in telling where marines are pushing)
--Parasite the RT to bring attention to it and get others to help take it down
--Put down a few OCs to at least slow down marines from killing RTs. The beauty is that they can be placed anywhere--they don't need a TF. And you can get 3 for the price it takes to secure (electify) a marine RT. 3 OCs should fully cover the RT.
That being said, the price of placing RTs for aliens should probably be dropped to 10 res. That would allow a skulk to rush and kill one marine, die, gorge, place an RT and at least one OC down.
Solution:
--Listen to attack warnings for aliens (they are really helpful in telling where marines are pushing)
--Parasite the RT to bring attention to it and get others to help take it down
--Put down a few OCs to at least slow down marines from killing RTs. The beauty is that they can be placed anywhere--they don't need a TF. And you can get 3 for the price it takes to secure (electify) a marine RT. 3 OCs should fully cover the RT.
That being said, the price of placing RTs for aliens should probably be dropped to 10 res. That would allow a skulk to rush and kill one marine, die, gorge, place an RT and at least one OC down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><u>NO</u></b>
In my example I was talking about two organised teams who can both play aliens and marines very well. In your example you want to balance to game around people who can't aim and are unorganised.
A good marine team absolutely obliterates any and all early game opposition, nullifying your points.
Pfft - I disagree with the fact the teams are balanced once fades arrive. Unless the marines have level 2 weapons by the time fades are there, a whole team could be massacred by one single decent fade with regen.
Aliens have to defend their nodes because putting up another is a huge investment (1/4 of aliens total res) and while you put up an alien node you are a halpless gorge.
I think the best thing to do is make alien nodes silent, this is what allows marines to know where the nodes are, what hive aliens have, the entire element of surprise is thrown out the window with nosy nodes.
In addition to this, alien nodes should have 2000 HP instead of 1500, simply because your node will often die before you can respond... which is rediculous.
Either speed up skulk speed so they can respond faster or increase the HP of the node, because right now the node is incredibly easy to kill.
But if anything is done, and if Flayra wouldn't like to see too big a boost for aliens, the number one thing he should consider are silent nodes.
Solution:
--Listen to attack warnings for aliens (they are really helpful in telling where marines are pushing)
--Parasite the RT to bring attention to it and get others to help take it down
--Put down a few OCs to at least slow down marines from killing RTs. The beauty is that they can be placed anywhere--they don't need a TF. And you can get 3 for the price it takes to secure (electify) a marine RT. 3 OCs should fully cover the RT.
That being said, the price of placing RTs for aliens should probably be dropped to 10 res. That would allow a skulk to rush and kill one marine, die, gorge, place an RT and at least one OC down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously have no experience with competitive ns (clanmatches), no offence.
This post was, if I'm not mistaken, written in relation to the balance problems in
competitive NS matches.
I agree with moomin on all his points, except that I would either nerf marine RTs
or buff alien RTs (make them cost less res, e.g.). Not both.
I feel that the nerf to marine nodes is needed to stop the all out offensive while buffing alien nodes is required to make them less of an investment, effectively balancing the two teams resource node situation out instead of having one team always attacking and one always defending.
1) The marines lose a player when he goes comm. On small games, this is a <i>huge</i> loss (3v3 means 1/3 of the team is sitting in the chair). On large games this doesn't hurt so bad.
Therefore, a marine with comm support is more powerful than a lone marine (as it should be).
2) A gorge is almost completely helpless. Marines, on the other hand, can both build and fight, so they are only vulnerable while building the structure (and even then not as vulnerable as a gorge). In a small game, the marines' dedicated builder (aka comm) is a large part of the team, but in a large game, the comm isn't. Therefore, whenever a game increases in number of players, the marines tactical flexibilty grows. (And the penalty of having a dedicated comm lessens.)
I believe the above points greatly contribute to marine dominance in a large game, while greatly screwing marines over in a small one.
On second thought: did I just ramble off-topic?
what i see is some sort of lack alien play (mainly organisation)
i've seen the european team torment (as marine) not going offensive versus the nodes and get themseleves nodes instead and holding them to tech up (and while they are doing this they are locking down the 2nd and 3rd hive), so it dosent really depend on if the alien team have all their nodes up (if they build 2), because aliens will still get their res for that fade and hive but when they got all that you got to face hmgs/jps since the aliens wont have recieved the res for kills.
solution to this problem is more simple than anyone of you are thinking off, try and get 3 or 4 nodes instead, maybe one lerk instead of fade? (the lerk can get another rt if he dies and the gorges who built nodes will be able to fade about 30-60 seconds after the hive is dropped) its hard for marines to take down all the 3 or 4 nodes before the fade/hive mark is up and you will get a awesome res flow.
if you play versus a aggressive equal team in skill, youre alien and theyre marine you can easily just noderush, this has been really effective since the 2.0 drop, especially on the bigger maps.
this is almost as simple as the fade tactic, but you still need to organize the alien team, you cant just run off alone doing 1on1s and stuff, or even 1on2. have someone taking down their nodes while theyre pushing, they cant both push and protect their nodes.
it's also easier for the alien team to play offensive for map control, its the only way you can really control the map, if youre just sitting at your 2 nodes youre **** (depending on they attacking you or not).
you could also try the 2 nodes 3 fades 1 doing dcs tactic, just to try to have the control of the map.
if the marineteam is trying to just hold their nodes, get mc and silenceattack them from vents or just use celerity to jump on them really quick around corners?
get tactical sensories out on the map and just cloak-kill them, you really need to adjust, you should know what tactic the other team are doing before you play a official game.
there is simply no limits, just be creative and use teamplay!
i dont really think there needs to be anything done with this except for some ol' good teamplay and skills.
although, small tweaking is always good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One knifing marine can take out an alien resource tower in a very short amount of time compared to one skulk eating a marine tower.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Reckless exaggeration. One marine knifing an rt ALWAYS dies, it's the law. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I might agree with the rest of it, ns is kinda hard to enjoy when it's nothing but "shoot skulk with lmg, siege first hive" YAWN.
All marines have to do is manage to cap the skulk a few times then run behind the rt and knife it, I saw a plugin for sporting RT's a while ago and while annoying, I actually thought it was alright, maybe consider doing something similar for the alien side as the vulnerability of the nodes is starting to become a real problem.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you failed to remember that one skulk biting a node can only take down half of the health before having to pause and regain energy. a knifing marine never has to stop due to the fact that reins have no energy bar
what i see is some sort of lack alien play (mainly organisation)
i've seen the european team torment (as marine) not going offensive versus the nodes and get themseleves nodes instead and holding them to tech up (and while they are doing this they are locking down the 2nd and 3rd hive), so it dosent really depend on if the alien team have all their nodes up (if they build 2), because aliens will still get their res for that fade and hive but when they got all that you got to face hmgs/jps since the aliens wont have recieved the res for kills.
solution to this problem is more simple than anyone of you are thinking off, try and get 3 or 4 nodes instead, maybe one lerk instead of fade? (the lerk can get another rt if he dies and the gorges who built nodes will be able to fade about 30-60 seconds after the hive is dropped) its hard for marines to take down all the 3 or 4 nodes before the fade/hive mark is up and you will get a awesome res flow.
if you play versus a aggressive equal team in skill, youre alien and theyre marine you can easily just noderush, this has been really effective since the 2.0 drop, especially on the bigger maps.
this is almost as simple as the fade tactic, but you still need to organize the alien team, you cant just run off alone doing 1on1s and stuff, or even 1on2. have someone taking down their nodes while theyre pushing, they cant both push and protect their nodes.
it's also easier for the alien team to play offensive for map control, its the only way you can really control the map, if youre just sitting at your 2 nodes youre **** (depending on they attacking you or not).
you could also try the 2 nodes 3 fades 1 doing dcs tactic, just to try to have the control of the map.
if the marineteam is trying to just hold their nodes, get mc and silenceattack them from vents or just use celerity to jump on them really quick around corners?
get tactical sensories out on the map and just cloak-kill them, you really need to adjust, you should know what tactic the other team are doing before you play a official game.
there is simply no limits, just be creative and use teamplay!
i dont really think there needs to be anything done with this except for some ol' good teamplay and skills.
although, small tweaking is always good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My original post was meant to be about how resource towers are such a big investment for aliens whereas marines can rebuild them pretty much whenever, they don't have to worry about them and how the whole game depends on the alien team's fades.
Not about the different tactics each team can use because it all comes down to those points. If a marine team is camping their nodes and fast-teching then good for them, if they lose a node they can just drop it again and nothing has changed. If an alien team were to camp their nodes and they lost one they wouldn't be able to drop it again without having much later fades which means that the marines will be so far ahead in their tech that they simply overpowere the aliens.
You must agree that you this isn't right and that if you lose your fades you're screwed, right?
On the point of fades being overpowered, the fact is all good teams have their armoury upgraded by the 5-6 minute mark and a fade who so much as blinks into 2 HMGers is dead if it's targeted .. good teams have good teamwork and a fade can't touch a group of marines advancing on a growing hive without good support from skulks to distract their fire. If your teamworks **** your going to get dicked by good fades, if your alien teamworks **** your fades are going to get dicked (assuming the fades are of decent quality).
Zaiko, I can remember trying tactics similar to that and from what I can remember they failed against good teams, they were just all over your rts before you knew it and it turned out not to be worth it. If it could be made to work though that'd be great, NS needs variety in tactics.
However, it may be too hard for the marines to overcome, especially if they are not agressive enough.
OH yeah, about marines defending an RT. IT's not that easy because skulks can hide behind the RT, having block all shots.
Lol...I love screwing with marines like this. It really forces them to get in close (because if they circle from afar the skulk can easily circle as well) and in that situation (assuming it's one-on-one) a skulk will win.
What I have been seeing in beta 4 is marine teams expanding out, methodically capping nodes whilst teching to jetpacks. Whenever they find an alien node, 2 or 3 knife it to death in a very short period of time whilst others cover. Lone rambos also cap nodes/knife alien nodes. You might say "Oh well just respond to the node under attack", but any half decent marine will hear you coming and position himself so that you have to cross open space to reach him. And in those situations a lone marine can easily take down two skulks. Then he simply knifes the node again.
Not only are rambos and res hunting groups taking down alien res, they are capping their own AND in the process gaining RFK. In a battle of attrition where both sides hunt the others nodes the alien team invariably loses out, because the marines can do so much more with 2 - 3 nodes than the alien team can. Putting down a new node is a huge investment for the alien side, but how can they defend them? OCs? Don't make me laugh; I'd sooner spend 10 res on gorging and walking into the marine spawn, it would be a more effective way to spend res. Responding to the threats? Alien rts die so fast that even Fades have trouble responding in time, and god help you if those marines have shotguns.
Plus there's the perenial problem of the spawn rate. The marines right from the start can respawn almost 3 times faster, plus they have distress beacon. Rambos are ack in the battle quickly and off res-hunting capping. The alien side is pushed onto the defensive by lack and res/weight of numbers and they never recover.
I for one have just been playing combat lately; in every Classic game I've played on a wide variety of servers, the only time the marines lose is when they're incompitant. WIth a half-decent com and a team that's somewhat experianced the aliens simply don't stand a chance. Don't get me wrong; I greatly prefer Classic, but as I always go random and the good players inevitably stack marines, I end up as an alien and lose. It wears you down after a while.
How can we fix all this? The unchaining chambers idea would help, but I really think that either the cost of RTs and OCs needs to drop, or their health has to be increased (if not both).
Alien RT
Cost: 15 Res
Health: 2500
Defensive Actions:Autohealing
Marine RT
Cost: 22(ish) Res? (never went comm)
Health: 6000
Defensive Actions: Electrocution, 3 hits and a skulk is out, also can aim at 3 targets at once
I just don't like the big Health difference.
Take into consideration skulk do 75 dmg per bite and marine knife does 30 dmg per hit, you do the math! (cause im just too lazy right now)
1) The marines lose a player when he goes comm. On small games, this is a <i>huge</i> loss (3v3 means 1/3 of the team is sitting in the chair). On large games this doesn't hurt so bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot that when an alien goes gorge, they also lose a team member. On small games, this is a huge loss (3v3 means 1/3 of the team is squatting around). On large games this doesn't hurt so bad. Sure, they can evolve, but they would be far, far behind their team members, and a gorge will always be needed later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I've said before
Alien RT
Cost: 15 Res
Health: 2500
Defensive Actions:Autohealing
Marine RT
Cost: 22(ish) Res? (never went comm)
Health: 6000
Defensive Actions: Electrocution, 3 hits and a skulk is out, also can aim at 3 targets at once
I just don't like the big Health difference.
Take into consideration skulk do 75 dmg per bite and marine knife does 30 dmg per hit, you do the math! (cause im just too lazy right now)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot adrenaline. The skulk will need to stop 2-3 times for at least 10 seconds before he can continue killing the node. In the beginning, that alien res node will cost 25 res, and it's not that easy to just plop another one down if you've gone off and evolved.
A marine res tower costs 15 res. I think electrocution is 35 res, but it is pretty much worthless, because dropping another node is a lot cheaper.
But his point, that too much depends on the first fades, is valid too. For aliens the skill of the fades decides about the outcome of the match and that is probably not what was intended.
mfg
Lance
I think I mentioned in the Unchain the Chambers thread that chambers/area should be set to 8 (not just of each chamber that we have right now but total chambers) so a team would have to think about what they drop and where they drop it instead of running through the map spamming chambers everywhere.
SC should cloak only nearby structures (including hives/resource towers), every MC in the area should make the alien move 5% faster as well as teleporting to the furthest hive but perhaps not to a building one under attack? OCs should have 700 HP (1LMG/Pistol clip) as they will most likely be coupled with DC, SC AND high speed aliens and DC should have their heal rate of 10 lowered to 3/4 of 7.5/tick.
It would definately make the game more fast paced, <b>not boring</b> and back-and-forth between the teams as you would then have to hold each area.
It would bring a semi-decent midgame instead of the ones we have now which consists of fades trying to not die and marines trying to kill a building hive.
But you would definately have to buff marines as well, such as making TFs cost 10, less turret life/damage at cost of 5 (not reduced by alot to stop TFs down every hallway), a limit of 4 turrets per TF area (maybe the commanders will have to learn to place them well now?!) but make siege research cost 7-10 and sieges cost 10.
Maybe make it so the armory researches a little faster so there can be a proto up by 2 hives?
My reasoning? The less you make something an investment then more fast paced the game is and it doesn't revolve around one thing (be it a res node or a fade) dying.
Of course the above is just my ideal state of NS which I would love to play sorely <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->