Mapping & Competitive Play
Draconis
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
<div class="IPBDescription">Methodology</div> I have noticed that there seems to be a lack of communication between mappers and competitive players. Mappers dont understand why their maps are not welcomed by them, and vice versa. Most of these reasons being that mappers carefully put aesthetic design and competitive players cares most of how the game will feel on this map. To understand a bit more the how and the why of competitive maps, i have created a prototype guide designed for mappers, that use a simple tool, called <i>spider-view graphs</i> to enhance your maps from a simple layout.
When completed, I hope this will help a bit the task of mappers, and so they can focus entirely on artistic process rather than map balancing.
<a href='http://perso.enst.fr/~cguerin/NSmap/index.html' target='_blank'>Here it goes</a>
(sorry for all grammar faults i am not english native <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<span style='color:gray'>[LAST UPDATE 15th may]</span>
When completed, I hope this will help a bit the task of mappers, and so they can focus entirely on artistic process rather than map balancing.
<a href='http://perso.enst.fr/~cguerin/NSmap/index.html' target='_blank'>Here it goes</a>
(sorry for all grammar faults i am not english native <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<span style='color:gray'>[LAST UPDATE 15th may]</span>
Comments
Great job!
/me gives Draconis the thumbs up
Very nicely put together!!! <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Good job
Helps me a _lot_ when making my overviews for NS maps
Great article!
-Sinter
Sticky? Or link in the mapping guidelines?
This will help on map layouts alot and overview, been a bit stuck on the full layout on my crap map.
Winnar <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Think this should go into mapping guidelines for sure, maybe ns-world as well.
Its simply your linguistics at fault though, it doesn't dilute the value of your analysis by one shred <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>SaltzBads worthless rating</b> :
"Almost too good for the internet" (And discovering this a few years ago would have made my first attempts at mapping less disheartening <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
As Saltzbad pointed out, there are some terms like "tree-like" and "circular" which are wrong in a mathematic point of view (infact it is the opposite). My definition of lock down points was a bit goofy, and <a href='http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CutSet.html' target='_blank'>that</a> definition covers it all. However i dont feel it necessary to flood it with math term, and imo the term "lock down points" is kinda accurate to what happens in game.
There is also a few mistakes made by my algorithm in the pictures shown (SAA in eclipse has disapperead for ex), but as a whole it doesnt change a lot. And also vertex could be a better word than node, that is a lot of time used the same that for res nodes.
Thanks for the feedback and i really hope that could help you guys, and renew the dialogue between competitive players and mappers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In a side note, i search for updated minimaps (jpg/tga not in sprite version) of ayumi of veil; anyone knows where to find it?
Anyway, i discover that a member of the clan who decided to remove great maps from the french league is now .. sticky (!!) and is encouraging a certain way of mapping that some other clans could dispute.
(i will edit this post with an argumented document <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
In no way i am encouraging a certain style of mapping compared to others, and i want to make that clear. It is only a tool to <i>understand</i> and <i>help creating</i> competitive maps, that s all. I am not saying that non competitive maps arent worth playing: without Bast, i wouldnt be writing here, as, and it is the same for quite a lot of people, i had loads of fun on Bast when beginning in 1.02.
And, as a side note, my former clan RaB has nothing to do with those removals, and i am sure you know it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
a) stupid
b) very slow to learn
c) lack a foundating understanding for ns maps
d) limited in my english
because I hoenstly did not really understand how u draw the spiderview nor how you interpret it and correct it in order to get the information out of it.
It does not mean that it is badly written, everybody else has understood what it is based on and how it works, the problem lies within me, but since I do not want to be left out on such an apparent good thing, I would love it if someone would find the time to explain it to me a little further with as few complicated words as possible.
Think of me as a young child, ridicule me, make fun jokes about me, whichever helps you, but if someone would like to take the time to explain that to me in a more simple way so I, as well as all the other mappers here, could take advantage of this, I would be forever thankfull!
Thank you in advantage for all the help I may nor may not get / DarkMantiZ
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For each node, if more than one cycle have a length of 3, we delete it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make sense to me. I really would appreciate someone explaining this to me as I get the general sense of where all of this is going, but without understanding the rules to generate it can't really do this for my own maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For each node, if more than one cycle have a length of 3, we delete it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doesn't make sense to me. I really would appreciate someone explaining this to me as I get the general sense of where all of this is going, but without understanding the rules to generate it can't really do this for my own maps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to help me understand? Just the beginning where it says one node on each RT and.. well, I don't understand how to go about putting all the blue dots on the map, and which ones to delete etc :S
[EDIT: check the update of the guide ^^]
All I can say job well done. So many people can complain about maps but few are capable of reasoning their thoughts. I have pondered how the gameplay value could be calculated and I must say this topic answered many of questions.
Very nice idea and I think there are some great pearls of wisdom in here. Connectivity has always been the most important part of mapping (in my opinion) and there are many things you can do to improve it. When I plan a map I do something very similar to your spider/node diagrams and then elaborate with architectural detail (all on paper).
I found it hard to understand some of the wording in the guide. In particular the explanation of lockdown spots had me re-reading it several times. It might be helpful to elaborate on those explanations or give a simple "how to identify X" stepthrough.
Thanks,
Meto
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It includes many tips that allow you to control the balance of your map without comprimising its ambiance. The <i>vent theory</i> is a particularly thorough section.
Downright brilliant insight on the topics you touch - although I disagree with the term "treelike" structures, simply because it implys dead-ends. What you're outlining in the "trees vs circle" argument is that more interconnection allows for more dynamic outcomes and more choices in how to achieve victory, as opposed to holding strategic monopolys by brute force.
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^^
I think you make alot of good points but the one thing that caught my eye was the <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slopes and Bunny hopping: Bunny hop is a technique from the Half life engine to achieve high speed. Bhopping upward slopes is extremely hard and have an effect of cutting bhopping. Downward slopes makes in the contrary very easy to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines and kharra can bhop up slopes and go damn quick...