Mapping & Competitive Play

DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
edited May 2004 in Mapping Forum
<div class="IPBDescription">Methodology</div> I have noticed that there seems to be a lack of communication between mappers and competitive players. Mappers dont understand why their maps are not welcomed by them, and vice versa. Most of these reasons being that mappers carefully put aesthetic design and competitive players cares most of how the game will feel on this map. To understand a bit more the how and the why of competitive maps, i have created a prototype guide designed for mappers, that use a simple tool, called <i>spider-view graphs</i> to enhance your maps from a simple layout.

When completed, I hope this will help a bit the task of mappers, and so they can focus entirely on artistic process rather than map balancing.

<a href='http://perso.enst.fr/~cguerin/NSmap/index.html' target='_blank'>Here it goes</a>

(sorry for all grammar faults i am not english native <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->)

<span style='color:gray'>[LAST UPDATE 15th may]</span>
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Comments

  • NaigelNaigel Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18376Members, Constellation
    I think I will be needing this info <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Great job!
  • RueRue Join Date: 2002-10-21 Member: 1564Members
    Thats a very good read, and very well done. Cant realy fault your grammar either.

    /me gives Draconis the thumbs up
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    I've been waiting something like this so many time... heh.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2004
    And that's why you should always create a basic or even final layout of the map your working on so you know how the balance would be while building <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Very nicely put together!!! <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Good job
  • kolokolkolokol Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9166Members
    Nice one. GJ on the spider diagrams. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Great guide. I think all mappers should look at this.
  • wascally_wabbitwascally_wabbit Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20701Members
    Brilliance =)

    Helps me a _lot_ when making my overviews for NS maps
  • AfrAfr Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16240Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Very good <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • SinterSinter Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14347Members, Constellation
    I had been doing a simplified version of these spider graphs for some time now, but this is much more detailed and explains the pros/cons if each type of design.

    Great article!

    -Sinter
  • wascally_wabbitwascally_wabbit Join Date: 2003-09-09 Member: 20701Members
    edited May 2004
    *bump*

    Sticky? Or link in the mapping guidelines?
  • CloistCloist Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26041Members
    edited May 2004
    Thanks Draconis
    This will help on map layouts alot and overview, been a bit stuck on the full layout on my crap map.

    Winnar <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Think this should go into mapping guidelines for sure, maybe ns-world as well.
  • SaltzBadSaltzBad Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26833Members
    edited May 2004
    Downright brilliant insight on the topics you touch - although I disagree with the term "treelike" structures, simply because it implys dead-ends. What you're outlining in the "trees vs circle" argument is that more interconnection allows for more dynamic outcomes and more choices in how to achieve victory, as opposed to holding strategic monopolys by brute force.

    Its simply your linguistics at fault though, it doesn't dilute the value of your analysis by one shred <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->


    <b>SaltzBads worthless rating</b> :
    "Almost too good for the internet" (And discovering this a few years ago would have made my first attempts at mapping less disheartening <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
  • CloistCloist Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26041Members
    Well as Chrome Angel has been adding new co_ features to ns world think any chance of getting this in.When i started mapping for ns the guide helped alot for nub like me, think this will be a nice addition, certainly give new mappers a little extra help <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited May 2004
    Thank you for the feedback guys! I will update the prototype this week end, and especially the tips for balancing a layout.

    As Saltzbad pointed out, there are some terms like "tree-like" and "circular" which are wrong in a mathematic point of view (infact it is the opposite). My definition of lock down points was a bit goofy, and <a href='http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CutSet.html' target='_blank'>that</a> definition covers it all. However i dont feel it necessary to flood it with math term, and imo the term "lock down points" is kinda accurate to what happens in game.

    There is also a few mistakes made by my algorithm in the pictures shown (SAA in eclipse has disapperead for ex), but as a whole it doesnt change a lot. And also vertex could be a better word than node, that is a lot of time used the same that for res nodes.

    Thanks for the feedback and i really hope that could help you guys, and renew the dialogue between competitive players and mappers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    In a side note, i search for updated minimaps (jpg/tga not in sprite version) of ayumi of veil; anyone knows where to find it?
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Mmm, sticky goodness.
  • oOTOooOTOo Join Date: 2003-04-11 Member: 15401Members
    These instructions are nice but would have been better if published before the clashpoint reached during <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70485' target='_blank'>this affair.</a> and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67038&hl=' target='_blank'>this other one.</a> Readers will certainly notice that you participate in both.

    Anyway, i discover that a member of the clan who decided to remove great maps from the french league is now .. sticky (!!) and is encouraging a certain way of mapping that some other clans could dispute.


    (i will edit this post with an argumented document <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...] and is encouraging a certain way of mapping that some other clans could dispute. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In no way i am encouraging a certain style of mapping compared to others, and i want to make that clear. It is only a tool to <i>understand</i> and <i>help creating</i> competitive maps, that s all. I am not saying that non competitive maps arent worth playing: without Bast, i wouldnt be writing here, as, and it is the same for quite a lot of people, i had loads of fun on Bast when beginning in 1.02.

    And, as a side note, my former clan RaB has nothing to do with those removals, and i am sure you know it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
  • WaffleSpoonWaffleSpoon Join Date: 2002-01-30 Member: 133Members
    I have now read that guide about 4 times. I must be either:

    a) stupid
    b) very slow to learn
    c) lack a foundating understanding for ns maps
    d) limited in my english

    because I hoenstly did not really understand how u draw the spiderview nor how you interpret it and correct it in order to get the information out of it.

    It does not mean that it is badly written, everybody else has understood what it is based on and how it works, the problem lies within me, but since I do not want to be left out on such an apparent good thing, I would love it if someone would find the time to explain it to me a little further with as few complicated words as possible.

    Think of me as a young child, ridicule me, make fun jokes about me, whichever helps you, but if someone would like to take the time to explain that to me in a more simple way so I, as well as all the other mappers here, could take advantage of this, I would be forever thankfull!

    Thank you in advantage for all the help I may nor may not get / DarkMantiZ
  • ReeseReese Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16143Members
    To be honest I understand everything except this line:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For each node, if more than one cycle have a length of 3, we delete it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That doesn't make sense to me. I really would appreciate someone explaining this to me as I get the general sense of where all of this is going, but without understanding the rules to generate it can't really do this for my own maps.
  • antyanty Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13143Members
  • WaffleSpoonWaffleSpoon Join Date: 2002-01-30 Member: 133Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Reese+May 14 2004, 08:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reese @ May 14 2004, 08:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To be honest I understand everything except this line:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For each node, if more than one cycle have a length of 3, we delete it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That doesn't make sense to me. I really would appreciate someone explaining this to me as I get the general sense of where all of this is going, but without understanding the rules to generate it can't really do this for my own maps. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Care to help me understand? Just the beginning where it says one node on each RT and.. well, I don't understand how to go about putting all the blue dots on the map, and which ones to delete etc :S
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited May 2004
    hmm i will update the guide asap to make it clearer. Thanks for the feedback <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    [EDIT: check the update of the guide ^^]
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    edited December 2006
    Nevermind. I must say I have learned to appreciate the gameplay value of maps after all this years. Sadly the atmosphere is reversly propotional to gameplay value. But without starting to repeat myself <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=88297&view=findpost&p=1576171" target="_blank">here</a>'s how my values and understandment of ns have changed.

    All I can say job well done. So many people can complain about maps but few are capable of reasoning their thoughts. I have pondered how the gameplay value could be calculated and I must say this topic answered many of questions.
  • ReeseReese Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16143Members
    Very nice update. I was worried when I saw the technical definition at the start of the page, but the paragraphs following it did a fine job of describing this process in layman's terms. (aka I get it now)
  • MetoMeto Join Date: 2004-04-26 Member: 28216Members
    Hi,

    Very nice idea and I think there are some great pearls of wisdom in here. Connectivity has always been the most important part of mapping (in my opinion) and there are many things you can do to improve it. When I plan a map I do something very similar to your spider/node diagrams and then elaborate with architectural detail (all on paper).

    I found it hard to understand some of the wording in the guide. In particular the explanation of lockdown spots had me re-reading it several times. It might be helpful to elaborate on those explanations or give a simple "how to identify X" stepthrough.

    Thanks,

    Meto
  • cariocacarioca Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20511Members
    the center hive doesnt have a way begining in the marines start and all acesss to center hive will be for rooms have acess with flank hives i see alot ns maps with this efect( or all, im not sure).
  • rabbitrabbit Join Date: 2004-11-04 Member: 32626Members
    very nice indeed~


    <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Members
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    See also the sticky WIP in the General Competitive Discussion forum.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    Just another post for those of you who didn't see the link in my sig. I didn't want to make a new thread just to say this so I thought I'd post it in the Mapping Forum just in case you missed it. I've recently been updating my Mapping Guidelines for Competitive Play.

    It includes many tips that allow you to control the balance of your map without comprimising its ambiance. The <i>vent theory</i> is a particularly thorough section.
  • That_Annoying_KidThat_Annoying_Kid Sire of Titles Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14175Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1065576:date=May 13 2004, 03:00 AM:name=SaltzBad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SaltzBad @ May 13 2004, 03:00 AM) [snapback]1065576[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Downright brilliant insight on the topics you touch - although I disagree with the term "treelike" structures, simply because it implys dead-ends. What you're outlining in the "trees vs circle" argument is that more interconnection allows for more dynamic outcomes and more choices in how to achieve victory, as opposed to holding strategic monopolys by brute force.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ^^

    I think you make alot of good points but the one thing that caught my eye was the <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Slopes and Bunny hopping: Bunny hop is a technique from the Half life engine to achieve high speed. Bhopping upward slopes is extremely hard and have an effect of cutting bhopping. Downward slopes makes in the contrary very easy to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Marines and kharra can bhop up slopes and go damn quick...
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