This issue is that overtime, the default alien lifeform has become weaker and weaker, while the default marine has become stronger and stronger. The reason is because of consistent compromises and tradeoff's that have been made that have slowly but surely taken away all of the skulk's advantages while the marines have been slowly made to get better and better. Being an alien is becoming less and less fun. Take out knockback and start giving the aliens some distinct advantages again.
You can see an example of insane knockback in the one SPS clan video floating around the forums. about 1:38 in is where you can see a guy go flying like 10-15 feet across cargo on tanith.
id would be all for increseing a skulks speed and decreseing his overall hp/ap and removeing knockback.
if i get into melee range you deserve to die. If dodge a whole clip of lmg rounds you desserve to die. if i sneak up behind you you DESERVE TO DIE. if i catch you off gaurd you deserve to die. if i catch you reloading you deserve to die.
SE THOSE POINT I JUST MADE. shouldnt those apply to marines? because they all apply to aleins. we have a complete role reversal here in ns. skulks are vunerable to EVERYTHING up there while marines ARE NOT!!! isnt that so stupid. i mean seriously guys cant you see how illogical that is?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited May 2004
you are so right!
The only real problem in my opinion is the skulk! Enlarge the hitboxes again (for pub games) and increase their HP or Armor (for clan games. In clan games ppl hit the skulk also in their current state with their small hitbox, but they are too weak. This change would fill the balance leak between public games and clan games, between middle and highskilled players)
You still need to have a great aim to kill a skulk, cause you have to hit it more often and keep aiming at it. And lower the pistol damage down to 15, 20 is way too high. Knife is ok.
<span style='color:red'>consequences for pub games:</span> Marines with a bad aim can make some more hits at a skulk. Considering the fact, that the skulk has now much more HP/Armor they still wont kill it. But forced to go in groups will make them kill it. Low skilled marines will have more fun, even if dieying.
<span style='color:red'>consequences for clan games:</span> In the current state, skulks are really weak. They easilly get owned by single marines. The problem isn´t the hitbox, cause they get hit by good players anyway, the problem is the low health. So increasing the skulk health would be the only possible change to solve this problem. Also think about the pistol: Isn´t it ridiculous strong? I mean, the whole clip is able to make 200 damage, talking about non upgraded.
edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Maybe introduce a new function where when a skulk bites, the player can have the option of holding his bite so that the marine movement is reduced. Eg. like a dog grabing a robber and not letting go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahahaahha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Schimmel+May 16 2004, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Schimmel @ May 16 2004, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Maybe introduce a new function where when a skulk bites, the player can have the option of holding his bite so that the marine movement is reduced. Eg. like a dog grabing a robber and not letting go. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahahaahha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then the skulk drags the lone-rambo back to hive for everybody to feast on him. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well that actually happened to me twice on a server with LErkLift. The Lerk would grab you and fly you over to a Hive drop you and you get raped <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Awesome stuff...
As for the knockback, it really should be removed asap. I cant stand it when Marines just jump 6m away from you and somehow FASTER than a skulk could. I wont comment on removing bh, as this will start WW3. Yes, reality and game dont always match, but its only logical that a doggy skulk will run catch a 100 pound equipment carrying marine running, AND NOT THIS.
We could even start to consider the opposite scenario: Marines jumping down from ceilings firing at the poor skulks passing underneath them, ambushing Marines waiting for their Skulk-Dinner. Why do you think you get res4killing Khaara anyway? They are a delicatesse back on Earth! FEAR the human intruders that spread like cholera over the universe! FEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!
Guys, I'm in uni now. Yesterday, I've recorded 2 demos to show that aliens are damn weak. Anyone willing to help me host it?
1st Demo *************** Typical aliens lose with skulks being useless. Fades die so easly as Marines control a lot of RTs in the start game whereby they can upgrade to Level 2 damage very quickly.
2nd Demo *************** Even with Aliens rushing for 3 hives, marines still conqeur. Again, marines rts get errected like wild plants.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+May 20 2004, 10:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 20 2004, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> aliens are not weak... majority of all ns games are won by aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Think you're playing with either weak marines or strong aliens. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Watch the demo and see. This is what's happening in the server I'm playing on.
<!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+May 11 2004, 09:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ May 11 2004, 09:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I play NS, the more I want to vomit. NS is getting very stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i just read THE FIRST line...and that was enough, my answer to you is
stop playing NS then, no one is forcing you to play NS (which i remind you is STILL BETA AND CLEARLY UNFINISHED)....we dont need people coming into the forums and complaining where we need helpful feedback rather than flames
<!--QuoteBegin-bLuISh+May 20 2004, 12:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bLuISh @ May 20 2004, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+May 11 2004, 09:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ May 11 2004, 09:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The more I play NS, the more I want to vomit. NS is getting very stupid. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i just read THE FIRST line...and that was enough, my answer to you is
stop playing NS then, no one is forcing you to play NS (which i remind you is STILL BETA AND CLEARLY UNFINISHED)....we dont need people coming into the forums and complaining where we need helpful feedback rather than flames <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if you don't want to read the entire article so be it then. However, you can't stop me if I want or don't want to play NS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Judging from you, I think you're a person who jump to conclusions.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
he says that cause you sound like you think u know it all. I've read your ideas, and, nope, they dont work. You, and everyone, has to remember that the skill range is a lot larger than what you are a capable of. If you think something sux, then someone says u just aren't good with it, what does that tell you.. you aren't right, he isn't right, but a medium must be found..
I'm just compiling ideas from others added with mine on. I think the ideas that they all and I have contributed will make the game better.
Rambo marines are just plain stupid. As marines from my exprience, it so darn easy to play. There's totally no fear factor in it. Start game, rush rts, kill paper skulks, kill alien rts, recap rts, kill more stuff, kill fade easily. YAWN!!! NO FUN!!!
During the days of 1.04, ppl actually complimented comms for win. Now, it's more like if you have good rambo shooters. The victory is in your hands. During Beta 2 was one of the most fun days every. JP HMG rush has been fixed. Leaving the marines a bit of tricky to win. However, if you win... I was so satisfying. Beta 3 is just a plain marines bias patch.
One possible reason I think why Flayra change the game dramatically is becuz he has gotten lots of input from marine players saying it was too difficult to play. However if you further analyze it, these marines players often like to rambo and not stick together.
Like what the other thread mention, there's no FEAR FACTOR anymore for marines and it was this FEAR FACTOR which made the game fun in 1.04 and Beta 2. Since Beta 3 came out, it wasn't fun anymore. Why? Cuz of rambo marines. It sucks to have a game win or lose determined in the beginning of the game. In almost 70% of the games I play, marines control at least 60~70% of rts nodes (plus taking down like 30~40% of aliens rts) within the first 4~6 mins of gameplay.
Now you're asking why can't we set up ambushes and hunt in groups of skulks. Here's one reason, BECUZ WE SIMPLY CAN'T!!! Here's a typical senario for a 8 on 8 game.
Marines ******** 1 x Commander 7 X Free Moving Rambos
Aliens ******** 3 X Gorges 5 X Skulks
Imagine 7 rambo moving around the map capping and taking down aliens rts in the first 3 mins of the game. Now, say we gather at least 3 skulks from each rambo. So now you split the aliens team to 3/2 team. Both of these teams taking care of 1 rambo. Everybody knows after an assault, naturally you'll go back to hive and heal. Taking more valuable time in which there are 5 more remaining rambos taking down and cap rts. Gradually, this cycle continues and marines gradually will control majority of the rts. With enuf res, comm can upgrade to 2/1 Damage/ Armour. When fade comes, fade down with shotties.
Also, if you think of it. OCs are pretty much things to shoot for marines. A group of turrets and a turret factor is much more efficient than a group of OCs. 3 LMG clip to down an OC. Riiggghhttt... That's very fair-not.
The main reason behind all these is due to the hitboxes of skulks. They have been fixed but marines Level 0 weapons are not nerfed to compensate. Worst is that Level 1 armour is always the first upgrade (3 bites equal) as Level 1 damage is just plain useless (this does not support flexibility for comms). Therefore, this is why I gave some suggestions of change in my post. NOTE, I DON'T EXPECT EVERY SUGGESTION TO BE IMPLEMENTED.
If you ask me personally, I would say give back the AP of 20 to skulks. Widen their bite area and just make jump intervals for marines longer. Limiting the marines to jump make them more easier to predict to deliver the finishing blow for skulks. Therefore, promotes TEAMWORK for marines which have been long forgotten.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+May 21 2004, 09:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 21 2004, 09:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 3 gorges....? y. only need 1, and maybe 1 other guy to drop an rt and go back skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tried that, didn't work. The gorge just get caught by rambos as target practice. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unless the skulk camps in a good hiding spot, he will either be taken down first, (with no damage dealt.) Or the gorge will be killed before/after the res tower goes up. What I do see in alot of public NS games, a gorge will place an rt down with a skulk guarding, two marines come in and eraticate the defending skulk. They proceed to destroy the retreating gorge and then eliminate the RT. A 1 Skulk/1 Gorge team will have trouble defending against one marine, two make down right hard. Even if the skulk kills one marine, its likely he wont survive the second unless he has early game focus. There are two major problems, one is that its hard defending multiple "defenseless" targets, and two is that its impossible to play against a hard-counter like super knock-back. I think what the majority of players are saying its a moral-killer and takes the fun away from previous versions. Personally I liked 2.0, but now people tell me to adapt to version 3. But my question is, how do you adapt to a marine that has the ability to cheat death while having surperior aim? (Most Knock-Back jumpers are usually elite anyways.) To awnser my own question, you can't adapt to a hard-counter such as knock back jumping. Flayra and his team has to soften the counter by either reducing/removing it, or creating Bite-Lock so the skulk flys with the marine.
Me? I like the single gorge with good armor rating back in the old days. That way, skulks can either defend their resource and hive capper, or prevet the marines from securing RTs. OCs were the gorge's counter to ramboing, WOLs prevented marines from moving forward unless they concentrated on the WOL. What did this do? It created team work. But walls of lame are gone, rambos can sneak into hives easily now, I think 2.0 on up has just be a promotion to ramboing.
and thats not what most of the people want <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-surprise+May 21 2004, 09:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (surprise @ May 21 2004, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and thats not what most of the people want <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good reason there explaining why (although your signature supports knock-back I don't understand the whip-lash.), its not like anyones complaining about it, assuming that the majority don't want it fixed, lets also assume that "your" majority also want a "big nuke" available to all marines. Even if the majority wants it, its still wrong. The flavor known as balance and common sense say otherwise though. To make my final comparisin of what the 10' knock back is, just read below.
CS: Counter-Terrorist have a riot-shield, it blocks all bullets in one direction, and forces terrorists to encouter other targets while the person with the shield can pop-out at any time and get some shots off. Naturally, most servers have banned the shield because the terrorists don't get it, and its just an unfair advantage. NS: Marines have 10' knock back, it allows them to escape death provided they have enough health for one bite. This forces skulks to chase after them ending in their death. (For one or more marines, its death anyways.) Naturally, its not a weapon so it cannot be turned off. Its an unfair advantage that cannot be disabled.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fred1l1+May 22 2004, 05:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fred1l1 @ May 22 2004, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Where were the skulks? Shouldn't they be defending the poor gorgie? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd venture a guess they were defending, but they got destroyed so fast the 2(or so) marines were barely slowed down, and the fatteh was unable to run from the <s>long-ranged ray guns of doom</s> LMG-toting marines.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well that actually happened to me twice on a server with LErkLift. The Lerk would grab you and fly you over to a Hive drop you and you get raped Awesome stuff...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahaha <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I like such weird ideas. Marines must bleed.
Marine crack hoping is annoying regardless of species. As a marine, you have this weirdo jumping around and getting in your way even when fighting a skulk instead of just circle strafing them. The reason everyone jumps now is also because of knockback. Even as a marine, I see knockback as unbalanced with what you can do with it. If you check the bug database #4 you will see that they ARE fixing it. Skulk health, maybe a bit more health (5) and armor (5-10) and they would be rather useful. As of right now, they are easy to kill. Just 9 LMG bullets and they're dead, hell, even with terrible aim a marine can use up half a clip of LMG ammo and still kill the skulk most likely. As for someone's comment about removing bunnyhopping from aliens, I still think it's needed, but something should be done to allow newer players to do it easier without knowing how to script or limited in some way. It's too easy for a jerk exceptional player to go onto a moderatly skilled pub server and kill everyone and just ruint he game for them.
<!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+May 22 2004, 05:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 22 2004, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you guys must play on pretty poor servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure it wont make much of a difference... but you people MUST stop telling people that they are playing on poor servers. It is a WELL KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED FACT that a perfect marine will always ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> beat a perfect skulk. and by perfect i mean... both sides having hacks that were blessed by jesus christ himself.
Knockback sending people across rooms is a REAL bug (as stated, it has something to do with marines jumping while being biten) and it needs to be fixed... but knockback doesn't need to be taken out!
I've said it earlier, and i will say it again... all the alien team needs is their melee attacks widened (for skulk/lerk/fade) and their third hive abilities (note, ultimate top tier abilities) to be worth the THIRD and FINAL hive status. (NOTE: last hive built) Improve the advantages the aliens hold (CQC, speed, abilities) to compensate for their lack of long range attacks. I feel any problem within a game can be solved by reworking the current upgrade system or buffing the opposite team.
I think some people are confusing knowback and fly-accross-the-whole-room-jump-exploit-knockback. Regular knockback is what moves the marine out of your crosshair when you bite him, the second type is what people complain about. The first type is essential for balance, as it means skulks aren't instant death at close range*. The second is a Bad Thing for NS, as it takes away lots of the hectic nature of close combat- you simply sail away and kill the skulk with your new range advantage.
*By instant death, I mean no chance to react. Bite happens so fast that if you didn't have to readjust your aim at close range, it would be like free focus for everyone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 22 2004, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 22 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Knockback sending people across rooms is a REAL bug (as stated, it has something to do with marines jumping while being biten) and it needs to be fixed... but knockback doesn't need to be taken out! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is in Beta 5, check mantis <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Trevelyan+May 22 2004, 12:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ May 22 2004, 12:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ssjyoda+May 22 2004, 05:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ May 22 2004, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you guys must play on pretty poor servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sure it wont make much of a difference... but you people MUST stop telling people that they are playing on poor servers. It is a WELL KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED FACT that a perfect marine will always ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> beat a perfect skulk. and by perfect i mean... both sides having hacks that were blessed by jesus christ himself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Assuming the Skulk doesn't get a good ambush, at least, you don't need much more than a run of the mill marine to kill anyone as a Skulk. Anyone can tell you that I for example am a pretty crappy shot for competitive standards - but mowing down 2 near perfect Skulks when they <i>have to</i> move somewhere is perfectly within the possible.
Since after all, the LMG isn't all that aim dependant. You can take out Skulks within 20 rounds of your clip by just using it like a raygun - meaning just pointing in the generic/anticipated direction and not tracking or only faultily. Hence why I really don't lack the lack of any real recoil in NS. Makes shooting just a bit too cheesy.
I also can't count the number of times Skulks just insta-die within 10 rounds at close range although they weren't even on my frickin' screen. GG.
Comments
and removeing knockback.
if i get into melee range you deserve to die. If dodge a whole clip of lmg rounds you desserve to die. if i sneak up behind you you DESERVE TO DIE. if i catch you off gaurd you deserve to die. if i catch you reloading you deserve to die.
SE THOSE POINT I JUST MADE. shouldnt those apply to marines? because they all apply to aleins. we have a complete role reversal here in ns. skulks are vunerable to EVERYTHING up there while marines ARE NOT!!! isnt that so stupid. i mean seriously guys cant you see how illogical that is?
The only real problem in my opinion is the skulk! Enlarge the hitboxes again (for pub games) and increase their HP or Armor (for clan games. In clan games ppl hit the skulk also in their current state with their small hitbox, but they are too weak. This change would fill the balance leak between public games and clan games, between middle and highskilled players)
You still need to have a great aim to kill a skulk, cause you have to hit it more often and keep aiming at it. And lower the pistol damage down to 15, 20 is way too high. Knife is ok.
<span style='color:red'>consequences for pub games:</span> Marines with a bad aim can make some more hits at a skulk. Considering the fact, that the skulk has now much more HP/Armor they still wont kill it. But forced to go in groups will make them kill it. Low skilled marines will have more fun, even if dieying.
<span style='color:red'>consequences for clan games:</span> In the current state, skulks are really weak. They easilly get owned by single marines. The problem isn´t the hitbox, cause they get hit by good players anyway, the problem is the low health. So increasing the skulk health would be the only possible change to solve this problem. Also think about the pistol: Isn´t it ridiculous strong? I mean, the whole clip is able to make 200 damage, talking about non upgraded.
edit: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Maybe introduce a new function where when a skulk bites, the player can have the option of holding his bite so that the marine movement is reduced. Eg. like a dog grabing a robber and not letting go.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahahaahha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahahaahha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Then the skulk drags the lone-rambo back to hive for everybody to feast on him. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well that actually happened to me twice on a server with LErkLift.
The Lerk would grab you and fly you over to a Hive drop you and you get raped <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Awesome stuff...
As for the knockback, it really should be removed asap.
I cant stand it when Marines just jump 6m away from you and somehow FASTER than a skulk could.
I wont comment on removing bh, as this will start WW3.
Yes, reality and game dont always match, but its only logical that a doggy skulk will run catch a 100 pound equipment carrying marine running, AND NOT THIS.
We could even start to consider the opposite scenario:
Marines jumping down from ceilings firing at the poor skulks passing underneath them, ambushing Marines waiting for their Skulk-Dinner.
Why do you think you get res4killing Khaara anyway? They are a delicatesse back on Earth!
FEAR the human intruders that spread like cholera over the universe!
FEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!
1st Demo
***************
Typical aliens lose with skulks being useless. Fades die so easly as Marines control a lot of RTs in the start game whereby they can upgrade to Level 2 damage very quickly.
2nd Demo
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Even with Aliens rushing for 3 hives, marines still conqeur. Again, marines rts get errected like wild plants.
Really? Think you're playing with either weak marines or strong aliens. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Watch the demo and see. This is what's happening in the server I'm playing on.
i just read THE FIRST line...and that was enough, my answer to you is
stop playing NS then, no one is forcing you to play NS (which i remind you is STILL BETA AND CLEARLY UNFINISHED)....we dont need people coming into the forums and complaining where we need helpful feedback rather than flames
i just read THE FIRST line...and that was enough, my answer to you is
stop playing NS then, no one is forcing you to play NS (which i remind you is STILL BETA AND CLEARLY UNFINISHED)....we dont need people coming into the forums and complaining where we need helpful feedback rather than flames <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if you don't want to read the entire article so be it then. However, you can't stop me if I want or don't want to play NS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Judging from you, I think you're a person who jump to conclusions.
Rambo marines are just plain stupid. As marines from my exprience, it so darn easy to play. There's totally no fear factor in it. Start game, rush rts, kill paper skulks, kill alien rts, recap rts, kill more stuff, kill fade easily. YAWN!!! NO FUN!!!
During the days of 1.04, ppl actually complimented comms for win. Now, it's more like if you have good rambo shooters. The victory is in your hands. During Beta 2 was one of the most fun days every. JP HMG rush has been fixed. Leaving the marines a bit of tricky to win. However, if you win... I was so satisfying. Beta 3 is just a plain marines bias patch.
One possible reason I think why Flayra change the game dramatically is becuz he has gotten lots of input from marine players saying it was too difficult to play. However if you further analyze it, these marines players often like to rambo and not stick together.
Like what the other thread mention, there's no FEAR FACTOR anymore for marines and it was this FEAR FACTOR which made the game fun in 1.04 and Beta 2. Since Beta 3 came out, it wasn't fun anymore. Why? Cuz of rambo marines. It sucks to have a game win or lose determined in the beginning of the game. In almost 70% of the games I play, marines control at least 60~70% of rts nodes (plus taking down like 30~40% of aliens rts) within the first 4~6 mins of gameplay.
Now you're asking why can't we set up ambushes and hunt in groups of skulks. Here's one reason, BECUZ WE SIMPLY CAN'T!!! Here's a typical senario for a 8 on 8 game.
Marines
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1 x Commander
7 X Free Moving Rambos
Aliens
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3 X Gorges
5 X Skulks
Imagine 7 rambo moving around the map capping and taking down aliens rts in the first 3 mins of the game. Now, say we gather at least 3 skulks from each rambo. So now you split the aliens team to 3/2 team. Both of these teams taking care of 1 rambo. Everybody knows after an assault, naturally you'll go back to hive and heal. Taking more valuable time in which there are 5 more remaining rambos taking down and cap rts. Gradually, this cycle continues and marines gradually will control majority of the rts. With enuf res, comm can upgrade to 2/1 Damage/ Armour. When fade comes, fade down with shotties.
Also, if you think of it. OCs are pretty much things to shoot for marines. A group of turrets and a turret factor is much more efficient than a group of OCs. 3 LMG clip to down an OC. Riiggghhttt... That's very fair-not.
The main reason behind all these is due to the hitboxes of skulks. They have been fixed but marines Level 0 weapons are not nerfed to compensate. Worst is that Level 1 armour is always the first upgrade (3 bites equal) as Level 1 damage is just plain useless (this does not support flexibility for comms). Therefore, this is why I gave some suggestions of change in my post. NOTE, I DON'T EXPECT EVERY SUGGESTION TO BE IMPLEMENTED.
If you ask me personally, I would say give back the AP of 20 to skulks. Widen their bite area and just make jump intervals for marines longer. Limiting the marines to jump make them more easier to predict to deliver the finishing blow for skulks. Therefore, promotes TEAMWORK for marines which have been long forgotten.
PS. Marines = CS players equal.
Tried that, didn't work. The gorge just get caught by rambos as target practice. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS. Marines = CS players equal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
an AK would own a light armour rine,
unless they had pistol scripts <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are two major problems, one is that its hard defending multiple "defenseless" targets, and two is that its impossible to play against a hard-counter like super knock-back.
I think what the majority of players are saying its a moral-killer and takes the fun away from previous versions. Personally I liked 2.0, but now people tell me to adapt to version 3. But my question is, how do you adapt to a marine that has the ability to cheat death while having surperior aim? (Most Knock-Back jumpers are usually elite anyways.)
To awnser my own question, you can't adapt to a hard-counter such as knock back jumping. Flayra and his team has to soften the counter by either reducing/removing it, or creating Bite-Lock so the skulk flys with the marine.
Me? I like the single gorge with good armor rating back in the old days. That way, skulks can either defend their resource and hive capper, or prevet the marines from securing RTs. OCs were the gorge's counter to ramboing, WOLs prevented marines from moving forward unless they concentrated on the WOL. What did this do? It created team work. But walls of lame are gone, rambos can sneak into hives easily now, I think 2.0 on up has just be a promotion to ramboing.
Good reason there explaining why (although your signature supports knock-back I don't understand the whip-lash.), its not like anyones complaining about it, assuming that the majority don't want it fixed, lets also assume that "your" majority also want a "big nuke" available to all marines. Even if the majority wants it, its still wrong.
The flavor known as balance and common sense say otherwise though.
To make my final comparisin of what the 10' knock back is, just read below.
CS:
Counter-Terrorist have a riot-shield, it blocks all bullets in one direction, and forces terrorists to encouter other targets while the person with the shield can pop-out at any time and get some shots off. Naturally, most servers have banned the shield because the terrorists don't get it, and its just an unfair advantage.
NS:
Marines have 10' knock back, it allows them to escape death provided they have enough health for one bite. This forces skulks to chase after them ending in their death. (For one or more marines, its death anyways.) Naturally, its not a weapon so it cannot be turned off. Its an unfair advantage that cannot be disabled.
What else can I say?
I'd venture a guess they were defending, but they got destroyed so fast the 2(or so) marines were barely slowed down, and the fatteh was unable to run from the <s>long-ranged ray guns of doom</s> LMG-toting marines.
The Lerk would grab you and fly you over to a Hive drop you and you get raped
Awesome stuff...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahaha <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> I like such weird ideas. Marines must bleed.
Skulk health, maybe a bit more health (5) and armor (5-10) and they would be rather useful. As of right now, they are easy to kill. Just 9 LMG bullets and they're dead, hell, even with terrible aim a marine can use up half a clip of LMG ammo and still kill the skulk most likely. As for someone's comment about removing bunnyhopping from aliens, I still think it's needed, but something should be done to allow newer players to do it easier without knowing how to script or limited in some way. It's too easy for a jerk exceptional player to go onto a moderatly skilled pub server and kill everyone and just ruint he game for them.
I'm sure it wont make much of a difference... but you people MUST stop telling people that they are playing on poor servers. It is a WELL KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED FACT that a perfect marine will always ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> beat a perfect skulk. and by perfect i mean... both sides having hacks that were blessed by jesus christ himself.
Knockback sending people across rooms is a REAL bug (as stated, it has something to do with marines jumping while being biten) and it needs to be fixed... but knockback doesn't need to be taken out!
I've said it earlier, and i will say it again... all the alien team needs is their melee attacks widened (for skulk/lerk/fade) and their third hive abilities (note, ultimate top tier abilities) to be worth the THIRD and FINAL hive status. (NOTE: last hive built) Improve the advantages the aliens hold (CQC, speed, abilities) to compensate for their lack of long range attacks. I feel any problem within a game can be solved by reworking the current upgrade system or buffing the opposite team.
*By instant death, I mean no chance to react. Bite happens so fast that if you didn't have to readjust your aim at close range, it would be like free focus for everyone.
Knockback sending people across rooms is a REAL bug (as stated, it has something to do with marines jumping while being biten) and it needs to be fixed... but knockback doesn't need to be taken out!
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<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is in Beta 5, check mantis <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm sure it wont make much of a difference... but you people MUST stop telling people that they are playing on poor servers. It is a WELL KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED FACT that a perfect marine will always ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> beat a perfect skulk. and by perfect i mean... both sides having hacks that were blessed by jesus christ himself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Assuming the Skulk doesn't get a good ambush, at least, you don't need much more than a run of the mill marine to kill anyone as a Skulk. Anyone can tell you that I for example am a pretty crappy shot for competitive standards - but mowing down 2 near perfect Skulks when they <i>have to</i> move somewhere is perfectly within the possible.
Since after all, the LMG isn't all that aim dependant. You can take out Skulks within 20 rounds of your clip by just using it like a raygun - meaning just pointing in the generic/anticipated direction and not tracking or only faultily. Hence why I really don't lack the lack of any real recoil in NS. Makes shooting just a bit too cheesy.
I also can't count the number of times Skulks just insta-die within 10 rounds at close range although they weren't even on my frickin' screen. GG.