Lately, the forums have been getting a little, well, snooty. People have tended to reply a bit more condescendingly, or perhaps treat new players with less respect then they are due. There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods. And there've been too many flamewars, by NS forum standards.
This needs to be stopped pronto.
A lot of effort has been spent in the NS community to keep it very friendly, social, and PG. We want our forums, channels, and servers to be a refuge from the majority of the online world where anarchy reigns, and admins are nowhere to be seen. We can only do this with YOUR help.
In the next few weeks, the countdown to NS 1.1 is going to begin. This means that the publicity campaign is going to swing into high gear. All those screenshots, movies, battlefield stories, and the rest are going to bring a lot of new faces into the NS community. A lot of new faces that are not NS experts, who have not been playing since October 2002, have not been following the mod since July 2001. Basically, a lot of 'newbies'.
These players are what will keep NS alive!
They need to be welcomed, and treated with patience and respect. Again - patience and respect. This means that when someone asks some silly question for the 20th time that day, and you have nothing good to say, then you have no reason to post. First impressions are what counts in the online world, and if the first response someone gets to 'how do I evolve into an Onos?' is 'SUYF read the manual, n00b!' then that player is likely never to ask anything again. You and the NS team cannot afford for this to happen.
So, on behalf of the dev team, the mods, and the ops, I am asking you think before you post that flame. My moderators have also been told that we're tightening up, and they are going to enforce this new mindset with extreme force if necessary. This means you will get a thread lock and a PM if we find you getting out of hand. Then a temp ban. Then you will be gone forever. We don't want to ban anyone, but this is what it will take to maintain the peace and goodwill in here, we will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was originally posted in June 2003--almost 1 year ago.
Maybe it's time to call upon MrE for his special flavor of whoop***. (we miss you bro)
In cs you see a guy from opposite team you aim you shoot. Very basic mindless game that does take skills but if you play dod or unreal tournament you would have no problem playing cs. In ns there is so much you need to know especially if you are a commander that people who havent played the game for more than a month I just want to shove my foot up their stupid butts. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It is mindless you aim and shoot but I did say it takes skill. There isnt much of a strat and the amount of knowledge you need to know is limited. Thats why I say its mindless. There are usually only 2 sides m and t can meet up at. Everyone rushes to these points. From there its skill on how fast you get there and how well you can aim. You kill some guys then you can move up.
Its like taking the respawn out of ns 10 marines vs 10 aliens 1 life each. Not too much fun a lot less strat but you still need skill.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 6 2004, 08:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 6 2004, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sadly, through writing this post I've come to notice my own elitism. Not by 'skillz' or standing; rather that I feel that NS should have continued with what made it unique.. the RTS side, rather than focussing on 'what the people want'.. the FPS side. And I can't help but feel that following that track was the wrong thing to do, catering to the mass market rather than staying true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't make any sense at all, because in each new version of NS, fps skills becomes less important than strategy then did in the last.
Think about it:
In 1.xx each side had exactly one strategy, and on top of this marines were so overpowered they could just base LMG rush your hive and expect a good chance of winning. The JP/HMG rush was only stoppable by uber lerks on your team as well.
In 2.xx you were introduced into a support lerk, marines had many ways of winning (HA, JP, Phase), but aliens still only had one really good strategy. On top of this aliens did not have a dumbed down hive dependancy with the linking of their evolutions, and therefore the game went just from hive control to node control as well, a monumental change.
Now in 3.xx, you have marines who have a wide virety of strategies, although not much more complex than 2.xx. Aliens, however, have much more strategy now, with lerks being more dynamic, hives having more emphasis, aliens being able to go defense or sensory as a viable strategy (although sensory usuage widely depends on the map). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are talking about FPS strategy, what talesin talked about was RTS style strategy that 1.0x used to have. *from this point forth, this is all from a pub POV* For one, the 1.0 gorge used to take the time to capture and thoughtfully set up certain areas. This is because locations actually meant something. Territory was held not only for the res node. Vital captured places were lamed. Battlezones had def clusters just outside to aid combatants. Hives were actually hard to get to (w/o jps <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). Alien chambers actually served a purpose other than give upgrades.
Nowadays, chambers are nothing more than hive decorations. They live only to give upgrades. A gorge may put up one or two ocs every once in a while, but thats rare as well. Hives, or the alien's base, are in the back of a lot of people's minds. Whats more important to most is getting the res for onos/fade so they can go "pwn". So again, FPS is up front and center.
edit: its not all sad and gloomy. NS 3.0b4a is a great mod that is very enjoyable. Can we still claim that its a FPS/RTS? Im not so sure..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I can't help but feel that following that track was the wrong thing to do, catering to the mass market rather than staying true.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps from a moral point of view. But let's face it, Flayra is starting up a new company. He <i>need</i> PR, and the best way to get it it so release a mod and get a lot of players. And what's the easiest way to get a lot of players? Cater to the main-stream gaming community. You'll probably end up with more players by replicating CS than creating something new (unless you manage to do something really interesting). Sad perhaps, but true.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
edited May 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+May 6 2004, 04:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 6 2004, 04:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....my response mocking this thoroughly stupid thread was deleted. Lame.
<span style='color:red'>*NUKED.* Maybe you should get the hint and NOT post flames. First warning. -Talesin</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are my hero.
<!--QuoteBegin-Act Chill+May 6 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Act Chill @ May 6 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is mindless you aim and shoot but I did say it takes skill. There isnt much of a strat and the amount of knowledge you need to know is limited. Thats why I say its mindless. There are usually only 2 sides m and t can meet up at. Everyone rushes to these points. From there its skill on how fast you get there and how well you can aim. You kill some guys then you can move up.
Its like taking the respawn out of ns 10 marines vs 10 aliens 1 life each. Not too much fun a lot less strat but you still need skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol what? Seriously go watch the CPL finals... there are very intricate strategies and I garuntee you that both sides just don't "rush to where the enemy is and kill stuff".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are talking about FPS strategy, what talesin talked about was RTS style strategy that 1.0x used to have. *from this point forth, this is all from a pub POV* For one, the 1.0 gorge used to take the time to capture and thoughtfully set up certain areas. This is because locations actually meant something. Territory was held not only for the res node. Vital captured places were lamed. Battlezones had def clusters just outside to aid combatants. Hives were actually hard to get to (w/o jps ). Alien chambers actually served a purpose other than give upgrades. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You aren't having a pub point of view, it's just a point of view of people who don't know how to play the game and so it degenerates into a building spam fest where no one has any clue of what the hell is going on. Good pubs in 1.04 were far from like this, WoL did exist but it wasn't a really slow push because a good marine team would usually dominate aliens early on and then JP/HMG rush the first hive.
2. Holding res nodes over hives was incredibly silly and utimately worthless thing to do back then
3. Alien chambers had less purpose than they do now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nowadays, chambers are nothing more than hive decorations. They live only to give upgrades. A gorge may put up one or two ocs every once in a while, but thats rare as well. Hives, or the alien's base, are in the back of a lot of people's minds. Whats more important to most is getting the res for onos/fade so they can go "pwn". So again, FPS is up front and center.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.
Whereas in 1.04, it was about holding the hives, which was more or less an elaborate "king of the hill"... so therefore, once again, we see 1.04's FPS roots standing out.
Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness.
I think some of you guys took my post the wrong way, and started talking about CS People. I was talking about the gameplay of NS, how it combines RTS and FPS into an online team-based game. It was merely my opinion that NS is much more sophisticated than CS.
I think you guys need to realize something, they aren't the CSnubs anymore, they are the NSnubs. We need to realize that some of these people are playing NS as their first HL mod, and we need to give them a good impression of the way we act(or should act) so they will follow our lead and act the same way.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2004
[sadly construable as a flame, but oh well] N.B Intended as forum commentary, however it's taken. There isn't much point <b>ever</b> going over things with Forlorn's mindset. It's a complete unshakable belief that every opinion he holds is always 100% correct, for everyone, and cannot be changed. [/sadly construable as a flame, but oh well]
Personally, I can see where Status Quo was coming from. With each release, while there's been a semblance of tactical manuveuring being introduced, the focus seems to have travelled more & more to the individual skills of the marines/aliens, not how they operate in a team. But that [greater focus on FPS, CO introduction etc] (intentional or not) has hugely helped NS in the popularity stakes, and thus helped the foundation of Unknown Worlds.
But noting that or not isn't going to change that fact. Accept the game isn't what you hoped it would be, however much it saddens you, and learn to play the existing one, or move on. There's very little it seems that can be done to adjust that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 6 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 6 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 7 2004, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 7 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 6 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 6 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it was pwned
Natural Selection is more complex because of the rts elements, the reason why wall of ocs / dcs arent used often is because the gorge has lost its better res flow and it isnt economical to build a wall of lame unless your team has a lot of rts, which doesnt happen because marines understand how much aliens need those rts and so take them down as often as they can as well as lock hives.
The average new player doesnt know this and treats it like a straight FPS and so just concentrate on kills, rather than building (which can help change the control of a map dramatically). You can win a game by an early gorge / skulk rush, (e.g. 8 v 8 - 4 skulks rush while 4 gorges build up dcs and ocs outside marine start) whoever this is risky and therefore not practiced.
CS isnt mindless as different stratergies can be applied depending on your team mates and wepons they have, however you only tend to see good team work on CS with clan matches rather than public games. This trend is similar to NS, where some people dont help the Team and get called nubs because of this.
Anyway I dont tend to post much so when i do come on i take note of anything new and interesting, there has been an slight increase in flaming but its still quite rare with most post's being sensible critisim rather than outright flaming.
CS BAD::= dull 2 min rounds of constant ak0headshots vs Awm headshots CS GOOD::= .............
NS GOOD::= sence of teamplay- unique- nice gameplay overall NS BAD::= Combat n00b School of rambo'ing (in pups that is) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .................. i can think of no approprate response that doesnt invole insults.
You forgot to mention that CS is more dynamic, lack some of the critical flaws present in NS, result in less overall frustration, better balanced (though that is not necessarily a good thing given the reason why it's balanced)... I'm sure I could go on, but I doubt I'd get anywhere considering your last post...
What it all boils down to is this: Don't like CS? Don't play CS. No one is holding a gun to your head. If it's not your cup of tea, play something else. Good for you. But please, do spare me the unnecessary usage of my ears (or in this case, the eyes) by pointing out how much you dislike CS. Or at least try not to be so ridiculously biased if you absolutely have to. You don't seem to dislike CS because it's bad, you seem to dislike it just because. You've told yourself you hate it and therefore you do. You obviously have problems providing arguments for it, meaning you're either just trolling or you haven't really thought about it.
I'm sure this has been said before and probably will be said again. I don't know why I bother, since you and those like you have obviously not quite understood the point yet, nor are you likely to in the near future. You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. And at the moment, my opinion is that you should put a sock in it.
</sarcasm>
<i>Edit:</i> To avoid further misunderstandings, the post was a reply to Drake (and, of course, anyone else it should apply to).
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
I blame the over-locking admins and Forlorn <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Status I said that because i cannot think of any logical response to Drakes spam except - insults and abuse, so i gave ONE of CS's good points instead, seeing as he couldnt think of one.
I dont hate CS - in fact i used to play it before NS (and still do now and then), and please note i was refering to the whole quote and not just a good point about CS.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 7 2004, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 7 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 6 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 6 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside.
Now we are back on track. I also feel the game is less rts and more fps. This was a rts game with fps to set it aside from other hl mods. Now its a fps with rts so it is closer to other popular hl which we have been getting players from. fps is more popular so thats what more people want so the game has more of it now <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 07:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 7 2004, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 7 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 6 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 6 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You should be pleased, In a clan game 3.0 distinctly represents 1.04. Aliens get a VERY good strength boost around hive two. Marines tend to dominate easily early game, and aliens only need 2-3 resource nodes to survive comfortably.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 07:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+May 7 2004, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ May 7 2004, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 6 2004, 06:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 6 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Notice I never said 1.04 or slow push or building-spam?
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside.
And now to cement my fact of you being oppionated and therefore being a total hypocrite:
Care to back up this statement?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Res for kills is not an FPS game element. Rewarding killing your enemy and keeping yourself alive exists in every type of game genere.
Res towers, as well, were not that important for marines as they were quick, cheap, and easy to build. RT's were capped by the marine team in order to further establish a dominancy. They were to practically guarentee your success even if your marine's had terrible aim. Only the best and dedicated aliens ever won back in 1.04.
And, as I have stated before, more RTS elements were introduced with each version of NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> N.B Intended as forum commentary, however it's taken. There isn't much point ever going over things with Forlorn's mindset. It's a complete unshakable belief that every opinion he holds is always 100% correct, for everyone, and cannot be changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I do is post a statement backed up by several facts.
The sad reality is that most people cannot accept this as they do not want to ever have something shatter their precious oppinions.
This thread is evident of such. Almost everything said in reply to me has not had anything to back itself up as of yet. In fact, the very topic of the thread has no real backbone to it, except as some sort of general feeling, which in my oppinion does not exist and is shared by only the older members as they become bored with the NS community.
Furthermore, look at what I posted; all I said were indisputable facts in the face of some rather unfounded oppinions. And so far not a single response on any of them, which somehow doesn't surprise me, which the sole exception of umbraed monkey, whom so far I've responded to each time in a nice and civil manner.
And because no one can find a hole in the argument, the next logical step is to attack the person, which you have done shockwave. Congrats on being a hypocrite, as you have stated your oppinion which hasn't changed of me since god knows when. On top of this, I could probably find several forum posts of yours which are extreamlly oppinionated and do not do much in terms of listening to others as well. You fit your own bill of your worst nightmare.
And now, to make another point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With each release, while there's been a semblance of tactical manuveuring being introduced, the focus seems to have travelled more & more to the individual skills of the marines/aliens, not how they operate in a team. But that [greater focus on FPS, CO introduction etc] (intentional or not) has hugely helped NS in the popularity stakes, and thus helped the foundation of Unknown Worlds. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I give you the Great MonsE:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heya NS fans,
Lately, the forums have been getting a little, well, snooty. People have tended to reply a bit more condescendingly, or perhaps treat new players with less respect then they are due. There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods. And there've been too many flamewars, by NS forum standards.
This needs to be stopped pronto.
A lot of effort has been spent in the NS community to keep it very friendly, social, and PG. We want our forums, channels, and servers to be a refuge from the majority of the online world where anarchy reigns, and admins are nowhere to be seen. We can only do this with YOUR help.
In the next few weeks, the countdown to NS 1.1 is going to begin. This means that the publicity campaign is going to swing into high gear. All those screenshots, movies, battlefield stories, and the rest are going to bring a lot of new faces into the NS community. A lot of new faces that are not NS experts, who have not been playing since October 2002, have not been following the mod since July 2001. Basically, a lot of 'newbies'.
These players are what will keep NS alive!
They need to be welcomed, and treated with patience and respect. Again - patience and respect. This means that when someone asks some silly question for the 20th time that day, and you have nothing good to say, then you have no reason to post. First impressions are what counts in the online world, and if the first response someone gets to 'how do I evolve into an Onos?' is 'SUYF read the manual, n00b!' then that player is likely never to ask anything again. You and the NS team cannot afford for this to happen.
So, on behalf of the dev team, the mods, and the ops, I am asking you think before you post that flame. My moderators have also been told that we're tightening up, and they are going to enforce this new mindset with extreme force if necessary. This means you will get a thread lock and a PM if we find you getting out of hand. Then a temp ban. Then you will be gone forever. We don't want to ban anyone, but this is what it will take to maintain the peace and goodwill in here, we will.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was originally posted in June 2003--almost 1 year ago.
Maybe it's time to call upon MrE for his special flavor of whoop***. (we miss you bro)
I guess on a pub it is... but whatever
Its like taking the respawn out of ns 10 marines vs 10 aliens 1 life each. Not too much fun a lot less strat but you still need skill.
This doesn't make any sense at all, because in each new version of NS, fps skills becomes less important than strategy then did in the last.
Think about it:
In 1.xx each side had exactly one strategy, and on top of this marines were so overpowered they could just base LMG rush your hive and expect a good chance of winning. The JP/HMG rush was only stoppable by uber lerks on your team as well.
In 2.xx you were introduced into a support lerk, marines had many ways of winning (HA, JP, Phase), but aliens still only had one really good strategy. On top of this aliens did not have a dumbed down hive dependancy with the linking of their evolutions, and therefore the game went just from hive control to node control as well, a monumental change.
Now in 3.xx, you have marines who have a wide virety of strategies, although not much more complex than 2.xx. Aliens, however, have much more strategy now, with lerks being more dynamic, hives having more emphasis, aliens being able to go defense or sensory as a viable strategy (although sensory usuage widely depends on the map). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are talking about FPS strategy, what talesin talked about was RTS style strategy that 1.0x used to have. *from this point forth, this is all from a pub POV* For one, the 1.0 gorge used to take the time to capture and thoughtfully set up certain areas. This is because locations actually meant something. Territory was held not only for the res node. Vital captured places were lamed. Battlezones had def clusters just outside to aid combatants. Hives were actually hard to get to (w/o jps <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). Alien chambers actually served a purpose other than give upgrades.
Nowadays, chambers are nothing more than hive decorations. They live only to give upgrades. A gorge may put up one or two ocs every once in a while, but thats rare as well. Hives, or the alien's base, are in the back of a lot of people's minds. Whats more important to most is getting the res for onos/fade so they can go "pwn". So again, FPS is up front and center.
edit: its not all sad and gloomy. NS 3.0b4a is a great mod that is very enjoyable. Can we still claim that its a FPS/RTS? Im not so sure..
Perhaps from a moral point of view. But let's face it, Flayra is starting up a new company. He <i>need</i> PR, and the best way to get it it so release a mod and get a lot of players. And what's the easiest way to get a lot of players? Cater to the main-stream gaming community. You'll probably end up with more players by replicating CS than creating something new (unless you manage to do something really interesting). Sad perhaps, but true.
<span style='color:red'>*NUKED.* Maybe you should get the hint and NOT post flames. First warning. -Talesin</span>
<span style='color:red'>*NUKED.* Maybe you should get the hint and NOT post flames. First warning. -Talesin</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are my hero.
Its like taking the respawn out of ns 10 marines vs 10 aliens 1 life each. Not too much fun a lot less strat but you still need skill. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol what? Seriously go watch the CPL finals... there are very intricate strategies and I garuntee you that both sides just don't "rush to where the enemy is and kill stuff".
Aaron it's great you heroize interweb authority figures. Quality role models there.
1. You aren't having a pub point of view, it's just a point of view of people who don't know how to play the game and so it degenerates into a building spam fest where no one has any clue of what the hell is going on. Good pubs in 1.04 were far from like this, WoL did exist but it wasn't a really slow push because a good marine team would usually dominate aliens early on and then JP/HMG rush the first hive.
2. Holding res nodes over hives was incredibly silly and utimately worthless thing to do back then
3. Alien chambers had less purpose than they do now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nowadays, chambers are nothing more than hive decorations. They live only to give upgrades. A gorge may put up one or two ocs every once in a while, but thats rare as well. Hives, or the alien's base, are in the back of a lot of people's minds. Whats more important to most is getting the res for onos/fade so they can go "pwn". So again, FPS is up front and center.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.
Whereas in 1.04, it was about holding the hives, which was more or less an elaborate "king of the hill"... so therefore, once again, we see 1.04's FPS roots standing out.
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness.
N.B Intended as forum commentary, however it's taken.
There isn't much point <b>ever</b> going over things with Forlorn's mindset. It's a complete unshakable belief that every opinion he holds is always 100% correct, for everyone, and cannot be changed.
[/sadly construable as a flame, but oh well]
Personally, I can see where Status Quo was coming from. With each release, while there's been a semblance of tactical manuveuring being introduced, the focus seems to have travelled more & more to the individual skills of the marines/aliens, not how they operate in a team. But that [greater focus on FPS, CO introduction etc] (intentional or not) has hugely helped NS in the popularity stakes, and thus helped the foundation of Unknown Worlds.
But noting that or not isn't going to change that fact. Accept the game isn't what you hoped it would be, however much it saddens you, and learn to play the existing one, or move on. There's very little it seems that can be done to adjust that.
- Shockeh
EDIT : 2000th post, and I didn't notice. w00.
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines.
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it was pwned
The average new player doesnt know this and treats it like a straight FPS and so just concentrate on kills, rather than building (which can help change the control of a map dramatically). You can win a game by an early gorge / skulk rush, (e.g. 8 v 8 - 4 skulks rush while 4 gorges build up dcs and ocs outside marine start) whoever this is risky and therefore not practiced.
CS isnt mindless as different stratergies can be applied depending on your team mates and wepons they have, however you only tend to see good team work on CS with clan matches rather than public games. This trend is similar to NS, where some people dont help the Team and get called nubs because of this.
Anyway I dont tend to post much so when i do come on i take note of anything new and interesting, there has been an slight increase in flaming but its still quite rare with most post's being sensible critisim rather than outright flaming.
CS BAD::= dull 2 min rounds of constant ak0headshots vs Awm headshots
CS GOOD::= .............
NS GOOD::= sence of teamplay- unique- nice gameplay overall
NS BAD::= Combat n00b School of rambo'ing (in pups that is)
CS BAD::= dull 2 min rounds of constant ak0headshots vs Awm headshots
CS GOOD::= .............
NS GOOD::= sence of teamplay- unique- nice gameplay overall
NS BAD::= Combat n00b School of rambo'ing (in pups that is) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.................. i can think of no approprate response that doesnt invole insults.
Found one - CS : GOOD ::= Easy to learn
I'm sure I could go on, but I doubt I'd get anywhere considering your last post...
What it all boils down to is this: Don't like CS? Don't play CS. No one is holding a gun to your head. If it's not your cup of tea, play something else. Good for you. But please, do spare me the unnecessary usage of my ears (or in this case, the eyes) by pointing out how much you dislike CS. Or at least try not to be so ridiculously biased if you absolutely have to. You don't seem to dislike CS because it's bad, you seem to dislike it just because. You've told yourself you hate it and therefore you do. You obviously have problems providing arguments for it, meaning you're either just trolling or you haven't really thought about it.
I'm sure this has been said before and probably will be said again. I don't know why I bother, since you and those like you have obviously not quite understood the point yet, nor are you likely to in the near future. You are entitled to your opinion but so am I. And at the moment, my opinion is that you should put a sock in it.
</sarcasm>
<i>Edit:</i> To avoid further misunderstandings, the post was a reply to Drake (and, of course, anyone else it should apply to).
I dont hate CS - in fact i used to play it before NS (and still do now and then), and please note i was refering to the whole quote and not just a good point about CS.
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside.
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should be pleased, In a clan game 3.0 distinctly represents 1.04. Aliens get a VERY good strength boost around hive two. Marines tend to dominate easily early game, and aliens only need 2-3 resource nodes to survive comfortably.
AYYEE
i knew i forgot 1
anyhow i played CS for years since just after 1.0 well before NS
and tbh i got bored before the hacking annoyed me
and jeez im intitled to my own opinion i dont like CS for alot of reasons i do not think you directing your anger at me is going to change that
and now we can return to the current conversation <b>Whats With All The Flaming?</b>
On your point 2, if holding nodes were "silly" and "worthless", and 1.0x did NOT have RFK. Tell me, where did the res come from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This makes no sense, because getting resources is the basic and strategic principle of any RTS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, the res is gained from FPS means (RFK), and is spent for tools for more FPS-ness. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Resouces were not a big deal at all in 1.04. Aliens needed to survive untill hive 2. By then everyone but the perma could fade, therefore destroying the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll admit resources werent <i>that</i> important for aliens. In the res race, the aliens tend to dominate. However, IIRC, res towers were important for marines.
Im not saying 1.0's are better, Im saying that the game used to feel more RTSy. Obviously the subsequent version of NS are better (imho, 2.0 was a tad worse than 1.0, while 3.0's are much better). But along the way, some of the rts elements have been pushed aside.
And now to cement my fact of you being oppionated and therefore being a total hypocrite:
Care to back up this statement?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Res for kills is not an FPS game element. Rewarding killing your enemy and keeping yourself alive exists in every type of game genere.
Res towers, as well, were not that important for marines as they were quick, cheap, and easy to build. RT's were capped by the marine team in order to further establish a dominancy. They were to practically guarentee your success even if your marine's had terrible aim. Only the best and dedicated aliens ever won back in 1.04.
And, as I have stated before, more RTS elements were introduced with each version of NS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
N.B Intended as forum commentary, however it's taken.
There isn't much point ever going over things with Forlorn's mindset. It's a complete unshakable belief that every opinion he holds is always 100% correct, for everyone, and cannot be changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I do is post a statement backed up by several facts.
The sad reality is that most people cannot accept this as they do not want to ever have something shatter their precious oppinions.
This thread is evident of such. Almost everything said in reply to me has not had anything to back itself up as of yet. In fact, the very topic of the thread has no real backbone to it, except as some sort of general feeling, which in my oppinion does not exist and is shared by only the older members as they become bored with the NS community.
Furthermore, look at what I posted; all I said were indisputable facts in the face of some rather unfounded oppinions. And so far not a single response on any of them, which somehow doesn't surprise me, which the sole exception of umbraed monkey, whom so far I've responded to each time in a nice and civil manner.
And because no one can find a hole in the argument, the next logical step is to attack the person, which you have done shockwave. Congrats on being a hypocrite, as you have stated your oppinion which hasn't changed of me since god knows when. On top of this, I could probably find several forum posts of yours which are extreamlly oppinionated and do not do much in terms of listening to others as well. You fit your own bill of your worst nightmare.
And now, to make another point:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With each release, while there's been a semblance of tactical manuveuring being introduced, the focus seems to have travelled more & more to the individual skills of the marines/aliens, not how they operate in a team. But that [greater focus on FPS, CO introduction etc] (intentional or not) has hugely helped NS in the popularity stakes, and thus helped the foundation of Unknown Worlds.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Care to back up this oppinionated satement?