ps going LOL I'M ALWAYS RIGHT when people point out that you think you're always right isn't going to sway them from their position. Just a little protip from me to you.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2004
*Sigh*
I rest my case. Forlorn, if I was going to 'attack' you, do you think I would have bothered to be that civil? Ah well.
As for my opinionated statement. Of course it's opinion. That's what a forum is all about. No one statement about something as fluid as a game can be complete truth, except for utter basics like 'Weapons cost resources' or anything equally simplistic. It's my view as a player and a forum member.
Incidentally, feel free to point out my hypocritical blinkered hardline stand. I'd quite like to think I was quite open to changes in the community. But how you view yourself compared to how everyone else sees you is a different matter.
EDIT : The sheer irony of the thread this occured in has just made me laugh out loud.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 7 2004, 11:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 7 2004, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And now to cement my fact of you being oppionated and therefore being a total hypocrite:
Care to back up this statement?
Res for kills is not an FPS game element. Rewarding killing your enemy and keeping yourself alive exists in every type of game genere.
Res towers, as well, were not that important for marines as they were quick, cheap, and easy to build. RT's were capped by the marine team in order to further establish a dominancy. They were to practically guarentee your success even if your marine's had terrible aim. Only the best and dedicated aliens ever won back in 1.04.
And, as I have stated before, more RTS elements were introduced with each version of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Great, name calling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
RfK may not be a FPS specific game element, but in NS, it rewards FPS skill (not a bad thing), while making RT's less important. I dont know what RTSes you play, but in the ones that I know, killing the enemy units and buildings are rewarding enough.
Ive never seen marines "Dominate". Not even in the dreaded days of jp/hmg-ing. In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh?
CWAG: I dont want NS to remain 1.04-like forever, Id like to see RTS elements play a bigger role in the game.
Interesting comments, and I can see points on both sides that I agree with.
But the purpose of this topic wasn't necessarily to "blame" any specific genre or game.
As much as I do find the stereotyped CS player annoying and detrimental to gaming in general, I have to give credit where credit is due. Afterall, I for one played CS before NS, like many of us, and for a game that's six years old, it still does remarkably well.
Also, CS did pretty much make the mod scene as popular as it is, maybe it was just timing, but what modder out there doesn't secretly dream about being the next CS out there when it comes to modding?
Again, I know your frustration. I cringe at the simplest things, hell, even the word nub drives me nuts (I exclusively played on a server that banned that word for that reason). That word "noob, nub" etc belongs on CS, its a word born there and should stay there. Everyone knows that NS is hard, and the learning curve can be unforgiving, so it used to be that new players were embraced (as long as they didn't jump in the com chair) and helped along, rather than called that damned stupid word.
With that said, the purpose of this thread was to call attention to the simple fact that this community <i>can be </i>better that what it is currently, not because of idealism, but because it <i>has been</i> better in the past. Now, again, the frustration is valid, but what are we, those who know better, doing about it, or rather what can we do about it? Create vet servers? Create servers for the NS new? Or, heck, any sites that should get some credit for being solid sites that support the ideal of NS gaming?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ive never seen marines "Dominate". Not even in the dreaded days of jp/hmg-ing. In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show.
mmM , im pretty new to this forums(i have been more active since 1 month), but:
In comparison with other forums where the comunities are divided and the hate each others, this is one of the most efficient, nicely, helpfull and agradable forums i have ever seen.
And after this take it and mix it with the grat job of the admins and the support that NS is getting by his "truly active" comunity. I assure you, you cant say anything bad about this forums
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 7 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 7 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ive never seen marines "Dominate". Not even in the dreaded days of jp/hmg-ing. In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> meh. I server hop. I see what most people sees.
mind backing up with the facts that you <i>always</i> give?
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 03:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 7 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 7 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 02:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 02:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ive never seen marines "Dominate". Not even in the dreaded days of jp/hmg-ing. In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> meh. I server hop. I see what most people sees.
mind backing up with the facts that you <i>always</i> give? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure. Which one?
the rarity of alien wins in 1.04. I'd like to know once and for all that the games Ive experienced are infact, rare. Id also like to know the stats for previous versions of 1.0's. I distinctly remember a period when aliens dominated, but I forgot how or why.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 7 2004, 10:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 7 2004, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the rarity of alien wins in 1.04. I'd like to know once and for all that the games Ive experienced are infact, rare. Id also like to know the stats for previous versions of 1.0's. I distinctly remember a period when aliens dominated, but I forgot how or why. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the time when aliens won a good majority on pubs was before people learned how to abuse marine early game.
The fact was, if aliens managed to get up a second hive, they were almost guarenteed a win.
So marine's just had to learn how to end the game real fast or keep aliens from a second hive, and I remember distinctly a few ways this was done:
- 2 hive lock downs, usually with a relocation and a push to the other hive where turret farms are established
- JP/HMG rush, you could get a JP/HMG under 5 min I recall correctly, by simply building the arms lab, recyling it (which gave you res) and because the game would count it as having built the lab you would be able to upgrade the armory, then drop a proto and get a JP/HMG.
This was possible to do with the 100 res you started with. On a pub server with no godlike lerks to defend against the JP/HMG rush, this was almost always a GG. I remember being a very very frustrated pubber with this aspect of the game, and so I did not play 1.04. A JP/HMG with 100 fps meant he would never land, and 2.5 HMG clips to kill the hive meant it would die and you couldn't do a single thing about it, other than pray for a godlike lerk to save your team's butt.
Marine's with poor aim, however, would almost always lose in 1.04 because once the second hive went up it was fades of doom which would wipe the marine team into extinction. Of course, poor aim will lose today, so not much has changed in this aspect.
I have no idea where to find stats that are over 1 year old. I do know, however, but looking at the changes from 1.xx to 2.xx, you can clearly see aliens getting boosts in several area's, because like I state, aliens were completely underpowered in 1.04, in terms of fighting power, res flow, and avalible strategies to choose from.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+May 5 2004, 03:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ May 5 2004, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Elitism, and overcompensated inferiority complexes are to blame.
But I don't know, I started playing NS about 3 months ago, and started browsing these forums about a month and a half ago, so I really don't know the community in the past. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please take atleats 1 college psych course before you play the role of Internet Psychologist plz.
Anything in life with standards will have elitism. That includes online gaming. I hate to say it, but, ( here is the shocker) some players are better than others??!?! Thats not just including aim, you mean people may be smarter too ? No way, they must be overcomensating for something. It is impossible that how someone looks at the game, and the way they learn? No they must have a small **** (self filtered), because thats the obvious answer to everything.
Some people can play less, and accomplish more than a player who plays 12 hrs a day.
Also, anyone who has called me, or any other of the top clanners elitist, look at the some of the server community forums, if ANY of them have called someone a newb before, they are A)Hypocrites, and B)Elitist, but from what I've learned after reading some these server "community" forums, that its ok to be a hypocrite, as long as you have the admin icon next to your name and you happen to moderate that community forum.
ANYONE who has complained about a player of "lesser" skill (lesser in quotes because its not always true), is an Elitist pig.
There is a pecking order when it comes to it though, and those people who complain about it, could be generally upset, OR they could be mad that they are not at the top of spectrum, and avoiding being called a newb.
Its amazing how many of these "respected" communities, are hypocritical, but like I said Admin icon + Forum moderator status = Justified Hypocracy. So if you wanna be elitist and have people actually supporting you, run a server community, atleast then its justified, right ?
FW is right, Elitism applies in everything. The military (hooah!), church, education, sports. It is human nature to follow it; so why go against it?
Only the strong will survive - that is what everything boils down to. Sure losing in an NS match won't get you executed or anything because you're not good enough for society...this ain't the holocaust, is it? However we play as we live and whether or not something is a game or real-life situation the rules apply. If elitism is human nature, then "being equal" (whatever that <i>really</i> means) is only something that can work in theory - just read <i>Animal Farm</i> by George Orwell.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Possibly I should consider myself lucky then, as the only time I'll use the word 'n00b' or such is either :
A) Joking with players I've played many times before whenever they don't come out on top, and they know we're playing about (they'll say exactly the same to me)
or
B) When referring to the fact it's a horrible term.
I'm not one for putting down players. My community (as small as it is, admittedly) relies on those few regulars who come back, again & again because it's a nice place to be.
Hypocrisy though is inevitable at least in some respects. The fact you make any prejudgements of any person (and let's face it, humans do that full stop) makes you a little bit guilty, but then we're just nitpicking <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Insomnia+May 8 2004, 06:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insomnia @ May 8 2004, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Going off on a different tangent , without adding anything to this pointless discussion, notice how ironically this thread have traded many flames. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking at it from the other side - show me the other 25000 member community that produces a six-page discussion on such a difficult topic with as little friction as we have seen in here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anything in life with standards will have elitism...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And the rest of that post...
What you're talking about is being better, and apparently not elitism. Elitism means (at least to me) that you look down upon those who are not as good as you are, feel they are not worthy etc. The most obvious form is the people running around calling everyone "n00bs" (God, I hate that "word") for whatever reason. You can have high standards and be an "elite" (though the word feels inappropriate in this context), but that doesn't mean you have to go around and act like a jerk (which would be elitism). Yes, most things in life with standards will probably have elitism, but that's not a law. It is possible to have a community without elitism (even though the standing of the individual members will of course differ). It's just unlikely. But, had the NS community been all pink and fluffy from the start, any elitist showing up in-game had be kicked and any server not enforcing the no-jerk-policy had been black-listed, there would probably be a lot less elitism (probably along with less players/servers overall, though that is not certain). Of course, it'd be a dictatorship then, but given the fact that despotism is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the despot is a good guy and that the community is hardly a democracy as it is, it wouldn't result in any major differences.
A parallell here would be racism. If you're white (for example, I'm not making any political statement here) and hate black people, you don't have to go around and beat up every black guy you see. You don't have to smile and be nice to either, just avoid black people and perhaps say hello if they say it. If you don't mind them or like them, perhaps you could venture as far as being nice as well. Just replace "white" with "good player" and "black people" with "newbies", and we're all set.
I've read some of these respected community forums, and they have complained about "newbs" bringing down their "level" of play, and at the same time its ok for them to bash the clanners for being elitist. Being a elitist doesn't require much talent (apparently), you just have to run a server community and moderate that community's forum, and then you can do whatever you want because you are the admin, and then when new commers come in, you get to do such stuff as
"**** newb"
"sigh...." (my favorite)
"OMG YOU STOLED MY KILL"
"OMG THE NEWB DROPPED SENS"
Not only that, if someone makes a mistake,you can get one them about it for as long as you want, and they might say "hey maybe you should shut up and relax", you get to BAN that person! How great is that ? You can provoke someone you don't like, to justify your ban of them. Thats a lot better than accusing people of "Wallbotting" or "Focusbotting" (that one is precious) ((Competitive guys know which server)). It seems that some of these communities make up new cheats everyday to get someone banned. Tell me that does not r0x0r?!?! or WHAT?
Bottom line, Its not ok for a top clan player to have high standards, which could be considered elitist, but it IS ok for people who spend the money for eStatus to look down upon people, because they have a community that follows them.
The more people you have agreeing with you, the less elitist it seems, correct?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A parallell here would be racism. If you're white (for example, I'm not making any political statement here) and hate black people, you don't have to go around and beat up every black guy you see. You don't have to smile and be nice to either, just avoid black people and perhaps say hello if they say it. If you don't mind them or like them, perhaps you could venture as far as being nice as well. Just replace "white" with "good player" and "black people" with "newbies", and we're all set. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, since the African American community is fewer in numbers, good players would be them, and the white americans who vastly outnumber the African Americans, would be your "newbie"group.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+May 8 2004, 08:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ May 8 2004, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've read some of these respected community forums, and they have complained about "newbs" bringing down their "level" of play, and at the same time its ok for them to bash the clanners for being elitist. Being a elitist doesn't require much talent (apparently), you just have to run a server community and moderate that community's forum, and then you can do whatever you want because you are the admin, and then when new commers come in, you get to do such stuff as
"**** newb"
"sigh...." (my favorite)
"OMG YOU STOLED MY KILL"
"OMG THE NEWB DROPPED SENS"
Not only that, if someone makes a mistake,you can get one them about it for as long as you want, and they might say "hey maybe you should shut up and relax", you get to BAN that person! How great is that ? You can provoke someone you don't like, to justify your ban of them. Thats a lot better than accusing people of "Wallbotting" or "Focusbotting" (that one is precious) ((Competitive guys know which server)). It seems that some of these communities make up new cheats everyday to get someone banned. Tell me that does not r0x0r?!?! or WHAT?
Bottom line, Its not ok for a top clan player to have high standards, which could be considered elitist, but it IS ok for people who spend the money for eStatus to look down upon people, because they have a community that follows them.
The more people you have agreeing with you, the less elitist it seems, correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, Ive grown to dislike certain communities. Its sad that their servers are still recommended by the general public.
Forlorn, I failed to find any alien beefs in 2.0 changelog (although I dont think there ever was a complete one, the official one claimed that lerk flight was fixed in 2.0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I guess you can say the sensory changes were beefs, I dont know what else. On the other hand, there were some major all around marine beefs and alien nerfs in 2.01.
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+May 6 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 6 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because god knows it's better to argue about absolute twaddle, writing whole novels about a problem that doesn't exist.
Aaron it's great you heroize interweb authority figures. Quality role models there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What "authority figures"? I wasn't heroizing any "authority figures", and a online forum would be the last place to look for "quality role models". I do appreciate your wild assumptionsn though.
I was agreeing in general with the sentiment that it was pointless to always gripe about how everything was so much better in the past. Of course we selectively <i>remember</i> all the good things and <i>forget</i> all the bad things. I found the sardonic advice amusing in the face of the constant navel gazing illustrated by this thread. In fact it looks like you agree that this thread is pointless, so other than to misguidedly insult an arbitrary poster on an online forum i'm not sure what your post added.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 8 2004, 11:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 8 2004, 11:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Forlorn, I failed to find any alien beefs in 2.0 changelog. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stomp was introduced (which got nerfed), skulk base speed was increased, celerity gave a crazy boost in speed (later nerfed), movement towers helped regen adren quicker, gorge spit shot like a machine gun compared to 1.04, spores became available at one hive, and these are only the things off the top of my mind.
It's just human nature, we shouldn't blame anyone for what happens to this community. It's not the "CSnub" or the "CSer" its just people. You think CS blames other mods or games for all the flaming? There is no doubt in my mind they do but that is how it is. I hate when i go on a server and someone says something and i state my opinion in the best way possible without offending anyone and I'm often called a "CS NUB" or "Communist" or they just tell me "go back to your **** counter-strike you ****". I have witnessed this everywhere and another problem is alot of things you talk to about pubbers they take so offensively. Its like Ns is the U.S.A and pubbers are the patriots while you talk to clan members and they see the same thing or have a different idea.
We all have inhibitions that stop us from saying things to people we know love or care. But when it comes to being online all those inhibitions go away. Ever heard the saying "A drunk mans words are a sober mans thought"? Bascially internet is like alcohol, when we are on it we save whatever we want when we want because there is no one there to do anything to you. Some people can hold it back and some can't, I personally know i can't help it, when something that happesn to me i don't like I go out and call them nubs.
There is pretty much no way to stop it. You gotta think, where are all these flamers coming from if it there wasn't any CS? What then, would you blame AOL users for flaming because i have heard alot of insults about people who use AOL. If your tring to please everyone you might as well as forget it because what makes a certian group happy will make another group mad.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+May 8 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ May 8 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, since the African American community is fewer in numbers, good players would be them, and the white americans who vastly outnumber the African Americans, would be your "newbie"group. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Elitism is not a function of raw numbers, but of vocality, and you've got to admit that there are numerous gaming communities in which the competitive players demographic is the most vocal group - small wonder since you do by nature occur in 'packs' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have, i bit this marine four times and couldnt kill him, blood and sounds where there but he didn't die, no medpsam either, told him he was bugged, he said "SUYF NEWB" then i told him "you are" and he banned me.
Comments
I rest my case. Forlorn, if I was going to 'attack' you, do you think I would have bothered to be that civil? Ah well.
As for my opinionated statement. Of course it's opinion. That's what a forum is all about. No one statement about something as fluid as a game can be complete truth, except for utter basics like 'Weapons cost resources' or anything equally simplistic. It's my view as a player and a forum member.
Incidentally, feel free to point out my hypocritical blinkered hardline stand. I'd quite like to think I was quite open to changes in the community. But how you view yourself compared to how everyone else sees you is a different matter.
EDIT : The sheer irony of the thread this occured in has just made me laugh out loud.
- Shockwave
(thats not in a bad way btw) D:
Care to back up this statement?
Res for kills is not an FPS game element. Rewarding killing your enemy and keeping yourself alive exists in every type of game genere.
Res towers, as well, were not that important for marines as they were quick, cheap, and easy to build. RT's were capped by the marine team in order to further establish a dominancy. They were to practically guarentee your success even if your marine's had terrible aim. Only the best and dedicated aliens ever won back in 1.04.
And, as I have stated before, more RTS elements were introduced with each version of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great, name calling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
RfK may not be a FPS specific game element, but in NS, it rewards FPS skill (not a bad thing), while making RT's less important. I dont know what RTSes you play, but in the ones that I know, killing the enemy units and buildings are rewarding enough.
Ive never seen marines "Dominate". Not even in the dreaded days of jp/hmg-ing.
In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh?
CWAG: I dont want NS to remain 1.04-like forever, Id like to see RTS elements play a bigger role in the game.
Interesting comments, and I can see points on both sides that I agree with.
But the purpose of this topic wasn't necessarily to "blame" any specific genre or game.
As much as I do find the stereotyped CS player annoying and detrimental to gaming in general, I have to give credit where credit is due. Afterall, I for one played CS before NS, like many of us, and for a game that's six years old, it still does remarkably well.
Also, CS did pretty much make the mod scene as popular as it is, maybe it was just timing, but what modder out there doesn't secretly dream about being the next CS out there when it comes to modding?
Again, I know your frustration. I cringe at the simplest things, hell, even the word nub drives me nuts (I exclusively played on a server that banned that word for that reason). That word "noob, nub" etc belongs on CS, its a word born there and should stay there. Everyone knows that NS is hard, and the learning curve can be unforgiving, so it used to be that new players were embraced (as long as they didn't jump in the com chair) and helped along, rather than called that damned stupid word.
With that said, the purpose of this thread was to call attention to the simple fact that this community <i>can be </i>better that what it is currently, not because of idealism, but because it <i>has been</i> better in the past. Now, again, the frustration is valid, but what are we, those who know better, doing about it, or rather what can we do about it? Create vet servers? Create servers for the NS new? Or, heck, any sites that should get some credit for being solid sites that support the ideal of NS gaming?
In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show.
In comparison with other forums where the comunities are divided and the hate each others, this is one of the most efficient, nicely, helpfull and agradable forums i have ever seen.
And after this take it and mix it with the grat job of the admins and the support that NS is getting by his "truly active" comunity. I assure you, you cant say anything bad about this forums
In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
meh. I server hop. I see what most people sees.
mind backing up with the facts that you <i>always</i> give?
In 1.0s aliens generally had all the nodes. Among that, the marine team MUST hold 2-3 outside their base to win. That may sound easy now, but I do remember being able to take them down pretty consistantly. Guess I was a good and dedicated alien, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your oppinion is extremely limited, because you haven't seen all the game has to show. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
meh. I server hop. I see what most people sees.
mind backing up with the facts that you <i>always</i> give? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure. Which one?
the time when aliens won a good majority on pubs was before people learned how to abuse marine early game.
The fact was, if aliens managed to get up a second hive, they were almost guarenteed a win.
So marine's just had to learn how to end the game real fast or keep aliens from a second hive, and I remember distinctly a few ways this was done:
- 2 hive lock downs, usually with a relocation and a push to the other hive where turret farms are established
- JP/HMG rush, you could get a JP/HMG under 5 min I recall correctly, by simply building the arms lab, recyling it (which gave you res) and because the game would count it as having built the lab you would be able to upgrade the armory, then drop a proto and get a JP/HMG.
This was possible to do with the 100 res you started with. On a pub server with no godlike lerks to defend against the JP/HMG rush, this was almost always a GG. I remember being a very very frustrated pubber with this aspect of the game, and so I did not play 1.04. A JP/HMG with 100 fps meant he would never land, and 2.5 HMG clips to kill the hive meant it would die and you couldn't do a single thing about it, other than pray for a godlike lerk to save your team's butt.
Marine's with poor aim, however, would almost always lose in 1.04 because once the second hive went up it was fades of doom which would wipe the marine team into extinction. Of course, poor aim will lose today, so not much has changed in this aspect.
I have no idea where to find stats that are over 1 year old. I do know, however, but looking at the changes from 1.xx to 2.xx, you can clearly see aliens getting boosts in several area's, because like I state, aliens were completely underpowered in 1.04, in terms of fighting power, res flow, and avalible strategies to choose from.
But I don't know, I started playing NS about 3 months ago, and started browsing these forums about a month and a half ago, so I really don't know the community in the past. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please take atleats 1 college psych course before you play the role of Internet Psychologist plz.
Some people can play less, and accomplish more than a player who plays 12 hrs a day.
Also, anyone who has called me, or any other of the top clanners elitist, look at the some of the server community forums, if ANY of them have called someone a newb before, they are A)Hypocrites, and B)Elitist, but from what I've learned after reading some these server "community" forums, that its ok to be a hypocrite, as long as you have the admin icon next to your name and you happen to moderate that community forum.
ANYONE who has complained about a player of "lesser" skill (lesser in quotes because its not always true), is an Elitist pig.
There is a pecking order when it comes to it though, and those people who complain about it, could be generally upset, OR they could be mad that they are not at the top of spectrum, and avoiding being called a newb.
Its amazing how many of these "respected" communities, are hypocritical, but like I said Admin icon + Forum moderator status = Justified Hypocracy.
So if you wanna be elitist and have people actually supporting you, run a server community, atleast then its justified, right ?
Only the strong will survive - that is what everything boils down to. Sure losing in an NS match won't get you executed or anything because you're not good enough for society...this ain't the holocaust, is it? However we play as we live and whether or not something is a game or real-life situation the rules apply. If elitism is human nature, then "being equal" (whatever that <i>really</i> means) is only something that can work in theory - just read <i>Animal Farm</i> by George Orwell.
A) Joking with players I've played many times before whenever they don't come out on top, and they know we're playing about (they'll say exactly the same to me)
or
B) When referring to the fact it's a horrible term.
I'm not one for putting down players. My community (as small as it is, admittedly) relies on those few regulars who come back, again & again because it's a nice place to be.
Hypocrisy though is inevitable at least in some respects. The fact you make any prejudgements of any person (and let's face it, humans do that full stop) makes you a little bit guilty, but then we're just nitpicking <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Looking at it from the other side - show me the other 25000 member community that produces a six-page discussion on such a difficult topic with as little friction as we have seen in here.
What you're talking about is being better, and apparently not elitism. Elitism means (at least to me) that you look down upon those who are not as good as you are, feel they are not worthy etc. The most obvious form is the people running around calling everyone "n00bs" (God, I hate that "word") for whatever reason. You can have high standards and be an "elite" (though the word feels inappropriate in this context), but that doesn't mean you have to go around and act like a jerk (which would be elitism).
Yes, most things in life with standards will probably have elitism, but that's not a law. It is possible to have a community without elitism (even though the standing of the individual members will of course differ). It's just unlikely. But, had the NS community been all pink and fluffy from the start, any elitist showing up in-game had be kicked and any server not enforcing the no-jerk-policy had been black-listed, there would probably be a lot less elitism (probably along with less players/servers overall, though that is not certain). Of course, it'd be a dictatorship then, but given the fact that despotism is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the despot is a good guy and that the community is hardly a democracy as it is, it wouldn't result in any major differences.
A parallell here would be racism. If you're white (for example, I'm not making any political statement here) and hate black people, you don't have to go around and beat up every black guy you see. You don't have to smile and be nice to either, just avoid black people and perhaps say hello if they say it. If you don't mind them or like them, perhaps you could venture as far as being nice as well.
Just replace "white" with "good player" and "black people" with "newbies", and we're all set.
"**** newb"
"sigh...." (my favorite)
"OMG YOU STOLED MY KILL"
"OMG THE NEWB DROPPED SENS"
Not only that, if someone makes a mistake,you can get one them about it for as long as you want, and they might say "hey maybe you should shut up and relax", you get to BAN that person! How great is that ? You can provoke someone you don't like, to justify your ban of them. Thats a lot better than accusing people of "Wallbotting" or "Focusbotting" (that one is precious) ((Competitive guys know which server)). It seems that some of these communities make up new cheats everyday to get someone banned. Tell me that does not r0x0r?!?! or WHAT?
Bottom line, Its not ok for a top clan player to have high standards, which could be considered elitist, but it IS ok for people who spend the money for eStatus to look down upon people, because they have a community that follows them.
The more people you have agreeing with you, the less elitist it seems, correct?
Good post though FW.
Just replace "white" with "good player" and "black people" with "newbies", and we're all set.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, since the African American community is fewer in numbers, good players would be them, and the white americans who vastly outnumber the African Americans, would be your "newbie"group.
"**** newb"
"sigh...." (my favorite)
"OMG YOU STOLED MY KILL"
"OMG THE NEWB DROPPED SENS"
Not only that, if someone makes a mistake,you can get one them about it for as long as you want, and they might say "hey maybe you should shut up and relax", you get to BAN that person! How great is that ? You can provoke someone you don't like, to justify your ban of them. Thats a lot better than accusing people of "Wallbotting" or "Focusbotting" (that one is precious) ((Competitive guys know which server)). It seems that some of these communities make up new cheats everyday to get someone banned. Tell me that does not r0x0r?!?! or WHAT?
Bottom line, Its not ok for a top clan player to have high standards, which could be considered elitist, but it IS ok for people who spend the money for eStatus to look down upon people, because they have a community that follows them.
The more people you have agreeing with you, the less elitist it seems, correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, Ive grown to dislike certain communities. Its sad that their servers are still recommended by the general public.
Forlorn, I failed to find any alien beefs in 2.0 changelog (although I dont think there ever was a complete one, the official one claimed that lerk flight was fixed in 2.0 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I guess you can say the sensory changes were beefs, I dont know what else. On the other hand, there were some major all around marine beefs and alien nerfs in 2.01.
Aaron it's great you heroize interweb authority figures. Quality role models there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What "authority figures"? I wasn't heroizing any "authority figures", and a online forum would be the last place to look for "quality role models". I do appreciate your wild assumptionsn though.
I was agreeing in general with the sentiment that it was pointless to always gripe about how everything was so much better in the past. Of course we selectively <i>remember</i> all the good things and <i>forget</i> all the bad things. I found the sardonic advice amusing in the face of the constant navel gazing illustrated by this thread. In fact it looks like you agree that this thread is pointless, so other than to misguidedly insult an arbitrary poster on an online forum i'm not sure what your post added.
Stomp was introduced (which got nerfed), skulk base speed was increased, celerity gave a crazy boost in speed (later nerfed), movement towers helped regen adren quicker, gorge spit shot like a machine gun compared to 1.04, spores became available at one hive, and these are only the things off the top of my mind.
Aliens weren't given a boost in 2.0?
It's just human nature, we shouldn't blame anyone for what happens to this community. It's not the "CSnub" or the "CSer" its just people. You think CS blames other mods or games for all the flaming? There is no doubt in my mind they do but that is how it is. I hate when i go on a server and someone says something and i state my opinion in the best way possible without offending anyone and I'm often called a "CS NUB" or "Communist" or they just tell me "go back to your **** counter-strike you ****". I have witnessed this everywhere and another problem is alot of things you talk to about pubbers they take so offensively. Its like Ns is the U.S.A and pubbers are the patriots while you talk to clan members and they see the same thing or have a different idea.
We all have inhibitions that stop us from saying things to people we know love or care. But when it comes to being online all those inhibitions go away. Ever heard the saying "A drunk mans words are a sober mans thought"? Bascially internet is like alcohol, when we are on it we save whatever we want when we want because there is no one there to do anything to you. Some people can hold it back and some can't, I personally know i can't help it, when something that happesn to me i don't like I go out and call them nubs.
There is pretty much no way to stop it. You gotta think, where are all these flamers coming from if it there wasn't any CS? What then, would you blame AOL users for flaming because i have heard alot of insults about people who use AOL. If your tring to please everyone you might as well as forget it because what makes a certian group happy will make another group mad.
Elitism is not a function of raw numbers, but of vocality, and you've got to admit that there are numerous gaming communities in which the competitive players demographic is the most vocal group - small wonder since you do by nature occur in 'packs' <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But its ok, because its justified because of the admin icon and forum moderation.
Took me a long time to learn the rules, but now I understand.