the thing with combat right now is that the spawn rate really **** the marines up. even if the marines were camping the hive for half the game, if they lose their hold and everyone ends up dying, a quick alien counterattack seals the game up and makes it impossible for marines to win. marines can't take advantage of the spawn rate because they're rather slow, and can't move in the hive fast enough before half the aliens respawn again.
turkey: no one ever adapted to b3 spawning. the games were mostly alien wins, it's just worse now. fighting a war of attrition with aliens (ie camping base) is going to result in an alien win most of the time.
Actually, increased spawn times for certain classes could REALLY improve things, especially making late-game marine wins easier. It's very frustrating to desperately kill an onos while you're near the hive, only for it to spawn right back again. The same would have to go for heavies and jetpacks, of course.
I can't say i like the beta 4 co_ , but as i find it more fun to play ns it doesn't bother me much as the co_games end faster <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-meatball+Apr 25 2004, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meatball @ Apr 25 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't say i like the beta 4 co_ , but as i find it more fun to play ns it doesn't bother me much as the co_games end faster <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't seen any significant decrease in combat gameplay, there's still typical 40 minute game's with the occasional 5-minute rush win.
This is coming from 5 hour's of playing on 32 person combat server.
How about this idea for combat spawning: You spawn like beta 1. Kinda. Light marines, regardless of level, spawn in after 5 seconds. As soon as you get a shotgun, your spawn time increases by 3 seconds. When you get HMG or GL spawn time is increased a further 2 seconds. When you get equipment like HA or JP, spawn time is increased by 6 seconds. When you get ordinary upgrades like resupply or armor 1, your spawn time is increased by .25... So a HA HMG would have a spawn time of at least 15.75 seconds. This is still less than b1 which had you in the queue for 30 seconds just because you were level 10.
And for ze Kharaa... spawn time of 5, upgrades increase by .20 seconds, lifeforms by 2.5 per point of cost. Meaning l3 Lerks would spawn after 10 seconds, l4 fades after 12.5 seconds. Onos after 17.5 seconds. Unlock ability increases by plain 1 second.
Because this will make dead onos stay down for a while.
<!--QuoteBegin-lagger+Apr 25 2004, 07:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ Apr 25 2004, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ew combat, btw: The team who wins the first battle should win combat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because playing a losing game for 20 minutes on a pub is good times... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Apr 25 2004, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Apr 25 2004, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about this idea for combat spawning: You spawn like beta 1. Kinda. Light marines, regardless of level, spawn in after 5 seconds. As soon as you get a shotgun, your spawn time increases by 3 seconds. When you get HMG or GL spawn time is increased a further 2 seconds. When you get equipment like HA or JP, spawn time is increased by 6 seconds. When you get ordinary upgrades like resupply or armor 1, your spawn time is increased by .25... So a HA HMG would have a spawn time of at least 15.75 seconds. This is still less than b1 which had you in the queue for 30 seconds just because you were level 10.
And for ze Kharaa... spawn time of 5, upgrades increase by .20 seconds, lifeforms by 2.5 per point of cost. Meaning l3 Lerks would spawn after 10 seconds, l4 fades after 12.5 seconds. Onos after 17.5 seconds. Unlock ability increases by plain 1 second.
Because this will make dead onos stay down for a while. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, you're saying it's more balanced to have the lvl 1's spawn before the lvl 10's if the marine's are in the hive or the alien's are in the marine base?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because playing a losing game for 20 minutes on a pub is good times... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats pretty much the role of the marines in combat currently.
True the marines CAN win combat, but in every pub I have played at since the release of B4 the marines have been losing games at least 9 times out of 10.
True, the games seem to be shorter, but that is only because the aliens are owning the late game so fast that the marines have no chance whatsoever to prolong the game, either that happens or one team is able to exploit the one at a time spawing and end the game withing the first 5 minutes (this is the reason for every single marine win I have seen, and it goes just as easily the other way).
In my experiance the hive locations are generally easier for the aleins to defend then the cc room is for the marines to defend anyways (with the exeption of the fact that marines can shoot the hive from a distance). at any given point in the game you are likely to have at least a fifty percent chance of having an alien in the CC room, but on the marines side they are lucky to get a total to minutes in the hive.
If we really want to shorten the game in a non totally frustrating way we need to make the hive rooms harder to defend, so the marines can fight for a come back just as easily as the aliens can tech up.
<!--QuoteBegin-BattleTech+Apr 25 2004, 10:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BattleTech @ Apr 25 2004, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, you're saying it's more balanced to have the lvl 1's spawn before the lvl 10's if the marine's are in the hive or the alien's are in the marine base? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would like to personally thank Flayra for making servers take combat maps out of rotation.
Thank you very, very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Hey, you're right. Maybe this patch was pretty good after all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What's killing marines is lack of team play and focusing on the objective.
This is what I see. Aliens are down to 2/10 yet when I spawn back, I see marines humping the armouy, I run towards the hive and I see marines camping outside the hive. I run into the hive and empty my clip and I see marines shooting aliens instead of shooting the hive. At one point I got it down to 1000. All it needed was a few more shots, yet because of just BAD teamwork and focus, we lost.
Use your TAB key to get a status of the aliens. This is key!! and it's free intel on the enemy.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Apr 26 2004, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Apr 26 2004, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BattleTech+Apr 25 2004, 10:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BattleTech @ Apr 25 2004, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, you're saying it's more balanced to have the lvl 1's spawn before the lvl 10's if the marine's are in the hive or the alien's are in the marine base? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
I don't see the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Some people feel they are punished for being high-level, spawning slower. I don't agree - if you feel that it's better to spawn faster than getting better equipment, well... then don't get better eq and stay as a quick-spawner.
Beta 1 had this system, only problem was that it was slightly too slow - 30 (or was it 40?) seconds as lvl 10 was a bit too much. There was no problem with early game spawncamps, as any potial spawncamper was overrun by the lvl 1 spawners coming back every 3 seconds... late game, spawncamping (which is basically necessary to end the game) became possible as people were spawning in slower and slower (OTOH, they took longer and longer to kill as well - sort of evens itself out).
Of all the combat spawns types attempted, Beta1 was the best, IMO. Just tweaking it to become slightly faster at upper level and make it equipment rather than level based, and you would have something that rocked.
Beta1 spawn system was by far the best <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I did mention beta 1 was the origin of my idea, didn't I? If I didn't, consider it mentioned <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> The main problem with b1 was that it didnt matter what upgrades you got- a superskulk spawned the same as an onos. Not fun.
Comments
How's 10v10 to you?
turkey: no one ever adapted to b3 spawning. the games were mostly alien wins, it's just worse now. fighting a war of attrition with aliens (ie camping base) is going to result in an alien win most of the time.
I haven't seen any significant decrease in combat gameplay, there's still typical 40 minute game's with the occasional 5-minute rush win.
This is coming from 5 hour's of playing on 32 person combat server.
You spawn like beta 1. Kinda.
Light marines, regardless of level, spawn in after 5 seconds.
As soon as you get a shotgun, your spawn time increases by 3 seconds. When you get HMG or GL spawn time is increased a further 2 seconds. When you get equipment like HA or JP, spawn time is increased by 6 seconds. When you get ordinary upgrades like resupply or armor 1, your spawn time is increased by .25...
So a HA HMG would have a spawn time of at least 15.75 seconds. This is still less than b1 which had you in the queue for 30 seconds just because you were level 10.
And for ze Kharaa... spawn time of 5, upgrades increase by .20 seconds, lifeforms by 2.5 per point of cost. Meaning l3 Lerks would spawn after 10 seconds, l4 fades after 12.5 seconds. Onos after 17.5 seconds.
Unlock ability increases by plain 1 second.
Because this will make dead onos stay down for a while.
Because playing a losing game for 20 minutes on a pub is good times... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You spawn like beta 1. Kinda.
Light marines, regardless of level, spawn in after 5 seconds.
As soon as you get a shotgun, your spawn time increases by 3 seconds. When you get HMG or GL spawn time is increased a further 2 seconds. When you get equipment like HA or JP, spawn time is increased by 6 seconds. When you get ordinary upgrades like resupply or armor 1, your spawn time is increased by .25...
So a HA HMG would have a spawn time of at least 15.75 seconds. This is still less than b1 which had you in the queue for 30 seconds just because you were level 10.
And for ze Kharaa... spawn time of 5, upgrades increase by .20 seconds, lifeforms by 2.5 per point of cost. Meaning l3 Lerks would spawn after 10 seconds, l4 fades after 12.5 seconds. Onos after 17.5 seconds.
Unlock ability increases by plain 1 second.
Because this will make dead onos stay down for a while. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you're saying it's more balanced to have the lvl 1's spawn before the lvl 10's if the marine's are in the hive or the alien's are in the marine base?
thats pretty much the role of the marines in combat currently.
True the marines CAN win combat, but in every pub I have played at since the release of B4 the marines have been losing games at least 9 times out of 10.
True, the games seem to be shorter, but that is only because the aliens are owning the late game so fast that the marines have no chance whatsoever to prolong the game, either that happens or one team is able to exploit the one at a time spawing and end the game withing the first 5 minutes (this is the reason for every single marine win I have seen, and it goes just as easily the other way).
In my experiance the hive locations are generally easier for the aleins to defend then the cc room is for the marines to defend anyways (with the exeption of the fact that marines can shoot the hive from a distance). at any given point in the game you are likely to have at least a fifty percent chance of having an alien in the CC room, but on the marines side they are lucky to get a total to minutes in the hive.
If we really want to shorten the game in a non totally frustrating way we need to make the hive rooms harder to defend, so the marines can fight for a come back just as easily as the aliens can tech up.
Yes.
I don't see the problem.
Thank you very, very much.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! Hey, you're right. Maybe this patch was pretty good after all. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is what I see. Aliens are down to 2/10 yet when I spawn back, I see marines humping the armouy, I run towards the hive and I see marines camping outside the hive. I run into the hive and empty my clip and I see marines shooting aliens instead of shooting the hive. At one point I got it down to 1000. All it needed was a few more shots, yet because of just BAD teamwork and focus, we lost.
Use your TAB key to get a status of the aliens. This is key!! and it's free intel on the enemy.
Yes.
I don't see the problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some people feel they are punished for being high-level, spawning slower. I don't agree - if you feel that it's better to spawn faster than getting better equipment, well... then don't get better eq and stay as a quick-spawner.
Beta 1 had this system, only problem was that it was slightly too slow - 30 (or was it 40?) seconds as lvl 10 was a bit too much. There was no problem with early game spawncamps, as any potial spawncamper was overrun by the lvl 1 spawners coming back every 3 seconds... late game, spawncamping (which is basically necessary to end the game) became possible as people were spawning in slower and slower (OTOH, they took longer and longer to kill as well - sort of evens itself out).
Of all the combat spawns types attempted, Beta1 was the best, IMO. Just tweaking it to become slightly faster at upper level and make it equipment rather than level based, and you would have something that rocked.
The main problem with b1 was that it didnt matter what upgrades you got- a superskulk spawned the same as an onos. Not fun.