people can alter the skins and cross hairs from most Ns site any way. i myself use a high definition minigun for my HMG and i dont consider it a cheat in any way because its not effecting my game play or giving me an advanatage as for muzzle flare u GOTTA have muzzle flare OMG with out its your just firing a high pitch noise gun with out the fire works <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duh, of course you can customize your game to your liking. Regular model replacements offer no advantage, however I don't think you can deny that additive pink model replacements do offer a pretty big advantage, and that having a crosshair for an unscoped sniper weapon, devour or bite is a slight advantage. These are things that don't make the game look better, infact alot uglier, but they help you play better and aren't a legitimate way to customize your game.
I have personally witnessed two (2) instances of cheating in NS in the past 4 months. I play about 10-15 hours a week of NS and sometimes more. As opposed to the two instances of cheating I have witnessed, I have been accused of cheating over six instances in the past three weeks. I do not and never have cheated.
This says something to me about people's inaccuracy in detecting a cheater. So I am going to give you some guidelines for determining, in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner, if someone is cheating: (1) SUSPECT: If you SUSPECT someone of cheating, do NOT accuse them yet; specifically, don't spout off about "omg h4xoring," etc. (2) SPECTATE: Go into SPECTATE mode and observe them. You may realize they are just good or just got lucky. (3) DEMO: If instead your suspicions are raised, start recording a DEMO. Do this by typing "record demonamehere" in the console. Record the demo for a LONG TIME. 1 minute doesn't cut it (except for extremely obvious SPEEDhacks). You will preferably want to record for the remainder of the round or longer.
- At this point, you will either be absolutely positively convinced the player is cheating(read more about this below), or you may be slightly unsure. If you are completely convinced: (1) Type "status" into the console. This will bring up a list of the players and their statistics. Read the ID number of the suspected cheater and "say #" it in the game so it is included in your demo. Remember to get the actual steamID and not just the temporary server player number. (2) Report the suspect to the admins on THAT SERVER's forums. Include all relevant information such as: The date and time of day the cheating occured, the specific server (if forums apply to multiple servers), the nickname of the suspect, the kind of cheats used, other players who were playing on the server that may assist in verification of the suspect, the suspect's ID number, and offer your demo for viewing.
- If you are NOT absolutely positively convinced, there are more options for you. (1) Firstly, you can ask other players or an admin to spectate/demo the suspect as well to get another opinion. (2) You can VIEW the demo you made! But this time in slow motion. Type "playdemo demonamehere.dem 0.7" in the console, where "0.7" is the speed constant. The demo will play slower (in this case 70% of original speed) in order to help you see more clearly the fast-paced action of NS. Of course you can use whatever speed constant you want. (3) Follow the reporting guidelines above if you were completely convinced the suspect was cheating. Otherwise, study the demo and get better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some tips for first-person spectating to observe cheating: (1) Forget about detecting little things like model changes. In NS these kinds of cheats can easily be explained away by sound or just expert NS player intuition (not NSPlayer intuition), and they won't help crappy players an enormous amount anyway. (2) Instead, the primary cheats you are looking to detect with first-person spectating are speed hacks and aim bots. Speed hacks are a no-brainer... when someone uses skulk bite 10 times in 0.3 seconds, it's a speed hack. Watch out with pistol speed though, it IS humanly possible, without speed hack, to fire off that pistol very quickly. (3) Aim bots, on the other hand, can be difficult. As mentioned previously in this thread, there are simple aim bots (or settings) that make it possible to easily identify an aim bot. The player is aiming no where near the target and presses fire and voila! the crosshair snaps to the target and follows it perfectly. Until the target is dead in which case the crosshair snaps back to its original position, lol. BUT there are also aimbots with settings that can make the aiming algorithm smoother and slower to make it look more natural (as mentioned previously in the thread). This is when the time scaling option of demo playback is very helpful. You're going to be looking for markedly human aiming movements. What does this mean? Aiming movements that go PAST the intended target, or above or below it, or switching targets intelligently, or a non-straight-line or non-parabolic (if target is moving) aiming movement, or adjustment in an erroneous aiming movement in the middle of it. Any of these could validate the player as not using an aimbot. You see, the problem is, many of the best aimers use a jolty aiming motion with their mouse toward the target and then follow it smoothly, just like an aimbot does. It's the little nuances in how this is done that can differentiate a really good aimer from an aimbotter. And being good at the game is not enough to help you differentiate the two, especially with the availability of advanced aimbots and the prevalence of good marines. You have to watch lots of demos of very good aimers and lots of demos of aimbotters. I would say that the main difference is the "perfectish" paths that aimbots follow: they follow a path directly to the target model and lock to it. Real humans sometimes overshoot. And real humans mess up sometimes. This is why you need a long demo. Because real human players will mess up sometimes, and even if it's a small mess up, this will validate their skill.
SO, in closing, what have we learned (besides the fact that I like numbered lists)? We have learned how to respond to suspected cheaters in NS.
I made this post because I remember CS like other people do: "six kills in a row in cs = kicked by console". And I hate it. So please respond to cheating in NS as is fitting for the NS community... in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner.
Thank you for reading. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Esuna, can you redo the cheats? The quality on the video's is horrendous, I can't tell what half of those video's actually did. If you are short on bandwith maybe someone can host the files.
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+May 19 2004, 04:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (juice @ May 19 2004, 04:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have personally witnessed two (2) instances of cheating in NS in the past 4 months. I play about 10-15 hours a week of NS and sometimes more. As opposed to the two instances of cheating I have witnessed, I have been accused of cheating over six instances in the past three weeks. I do not and never have cheated.
This says something to me about people's inaccuracy in detecting a cheater. So I am going to give you some guidelines for determining, in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner, if someone is cheating: (1) SUSPECT: If you SUSPECT someone of cheating, do NOT accuse them yet; specifically, don't spout off about "omg h4xoring," etc. (2) SPECTATE: Go into SPECTATE mode and observe them. You may realize they are just good or just got lucky. (3) DEMO: If instead your suspicions are raised, start recording a DEMO. Do this by typing "record demonamehere" in the console. Record the demo for a LONG TIME. 1 minute doesn't cut it (except for extremely obvious SPEEDhacks). You will preferably want to record for the remainder of the round or longer.
- At this point, you will either be absolutely positively convinced the player is cheating(read more about this below), or you may be slightly unsure. If you are completely convinced: (1) Type "status" into the console. This will bring up a list of the players and their statistics. Read the ID number of the suspected cheater and "say #" it in the game so it is included in your demo. Remember to get the actual steamID and not just the temporary server player number. (2) Report the suspect to the admins on THAT SERVER's forums. Include all relevant information such as: The date and time of day the cheating occured, the specific server (if forums apply to multiple servers), the nickname of the suspect, the kind of cheats used, other players who were playing on the server that may assist in verification of the suspect, the suspect's ID number, and offer your demo for viewing.
- If you are NOT absolutely positively convinced, there are more options for you. (1) Firstly, you can ask other players or an admin to spectate/demo the suspect as well to get another opinion. (2) You can VIEW the demo you made! But this time in slow motion. Type "playdemo demonamehere.dem 0.7" in the console, where "0.7" is the speed constant. The demo will play slower (in this case 70% of original speed) in order to help you see more clearly the fast-paced action of NS. Of course you can use whatever speed constant you want. (3) Follow the reporting guidelines above if you were completely convinced the suspect was cheating. Otherwise, study the demo and get better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some tips for first-person spectating to observe cheating: (1) Forget about detecting little things like model changes. In NS these kinds of cheats can easily be explained away by sound or just expert NS player intuition (not NSPlayer intuition), and they won't help crappy players an enormous amount anyway. (2) Instead, the primary cheats you are looking to detect with first-person spectating are speed hacks and aim bots. Speed hacks are a no-brainer... when someone uses skulk bite 10 times in 0.3 seconds, it's a speed hack. Watch out with pistol speed though, it IS humanly possible, without speed hack, to fire off that pistol very quickly. (3) Aim bots, on the other hand, can be difficult. As mentioned previously in this thread, there are simple aim bots (or settings) that make it possible to easily identify an aim bot. The player is aiming no where near the target and presses fire and voila! the crosshair snaps to the target and follows it perfectly. Until the target is dead in which case the crosshair snaps back to its original position, lol. BUT there are also aimbots with settings that can make the aiming algorithm smoother and slower to make it look more natural (as mentioned previously in the thread). This is when the time scaling option of demo playback is very helpful. You're going to be looking for markedly human aiming movements. What does this mean? Aiming movements that go PAST the intended target, or above or below it, or switching targets intelligently, or a non-straight-line or non-parabolic (if target is moving) aiming movement, or adjustment in an erroneous aiming movement in the middle of it. Any of these could validate the player as not using an aimbot. You see, the problem is, many of the best aimers use a jolty aiming motion with their mouse toward the target and then follow it smoothly, just like an aimbot does. It's the little nuances in how this is done that can differentiate a really good aimer from an aimbotter. And being good at the game is not enough to help you differentiate the two, especially with the availability of advanced aimbots and the prevalence of good marines. You have to watch lots of demos of very good aimers and lots of demos of aimbotters. I would say that the main difference is the "perfectish" paths that aimbots follow: they follow a path directly to the target model and lock to it. Real humans sometimes overshoot. And real humans mess up sometimes. This is why you need a long demo. Because real human players will mess up sometimes, and even if it's a small mess up, this will validate their skill.
SO, in closing, what have we learned (besides the fact that I like numbered lists)? We have learned how to respond to suspected cheaters in NS.
I made this post because I remember CS like other people do: "six kills in a row in cs = kicked by console". And I hate it. So please respond to cheating in NS as is fitting for the NS community... in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner.
Thank you for reading. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I hate to do this, there are lots of excellent points here, and most of the time this method will work, but realize that some hacks just aren't detectible using these methods.
Some hacks detect weather a player is being observed and turn themselfs off while the someone is watching, and nearly all hacks can be turned off at one touch by the player using them (thus sometimes hackers will leave the hack off for short periods of time so your demo will pick up thier human movements). Furthur more ESP hacks which are arguably just as adventagous (I know I play better with motion tracking at least) are all but indectable unless the player is stupid and shoots cloaked units while his team doesn't have MT or picks off player in dark ambush spots who have been hiding thier for a long time.
If you knowtice someone who plays incredibly well, but can't seem to place a shot while your spectating him to save his life, either make an admin aware of your supicions discreatly, or join another server. You really can't prove anything.
Well then I guess the moral of the story is don't accuse unless you're absolutely sure, because sometimes it can be so difficult to tell the difference between really good players and people who are using cheats.
"A primary give-away with cheat use is that when an aimbot is in use, the player is able to turn through any angle in one frame, rather than turning at the speed of a mouse being moved from side to side. To spot this, trail a player when dead and lock your view onto his. If the player is instantly changing angles (and the end point of the movement being a hostile player), he is cheating.
Another way of noticing this behaviour is when a cheat engages two or more players. When the first player is killed, the cheater's aim will instantly shift onto the next player. "
I've seen this in NS, it is particularily noticeable in NS versus CS or DoD (wich are played mainly in one horizontal plan).
I've seen guys, instantly changing angle from front to rear and top to bottom in complex situations geeee... so obvious.
I don't think crosshair for devour is an exploit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's just a little cheat. Your not supposed to have one and it makes devouring much easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol... a devour xhair is NOT A CHEAT. Neither is a xhair for bite or swipe. Period.
<!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+May 19 2004, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ May 19 2004, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Esuna, can you redo the cheats? The quality on the video's is horrendous, I can't tell what half of those video's actually did. If you are short on bandwith maybe someone can host the files. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I intentionally encoded them in low res and not perfect quality to keep the file size down,. I know they're far from perfect, but they are completely watchable.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "horrendous", unless you're having technical issues your end, that is.
So stop being so picky, i'd rather people only have to download a 1mb-4mb file as opposed to a 10-20mb perfectly encoded file. This is meant to be a quick reference.
<!--QuoteBegin-esuna+May 19 2004, 09:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ May 19 2004, 09:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Jim has Skillz+May 19 2004, 09:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jim has Skillz @ May 19 2004, 09:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Esuna, can you redo the cheats? The quality on the video's is horrendous, I can't tell what half of those video's actually did. If you are short on bandwith maybe someone can host the files. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I intentionally encoded them in low res and not perfect quality to keep the file size down,. I know they're far from perfect, but they are completely watchable.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "horrendous", unless you're having technical issues your end, that is.
So stop being so picky, i'd rather people only have to download a 1mb-4mb file as opposed to a 10-20mb perfectly encoded file. This is meant to be a quick reference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bah, I couldn't see them at all. I think its something with brightness.
<span style='color:white'>Too big a pointer to cheatsites for our liking. Let's don't make it too easy, shall we?</span> that guy is stupid for making up those lies and stuff and even telling people what his ingame name is FOR 2 FORUMS
(also i dont hack ns even tho that was a hack site i just use it for games like starcraft or ra2 but when i saw the therad topic i wanted to see what it was)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol... a devour xhair is NOT A CHEAT. Neither is a xhair for bite or swipe. Period.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously it isn't a big cheat and it's not something that's going to ruin the game for everyone. But it DOES give you an advantage, why else would you have it, it certainly doesn't look any nicer?
Your obviously pushing me and I didn't want to do this but here goes:
Combine a bunch of these "customizations" and suddenly play twice as well without being twice as good(I'm not kidding. Turn up the gamma, get a good set of crosshairs for all weapons, brighten player model textures a bit so they stick out more(after all it's only a bit brighter so it could be rationalized away as only a minor cheat if even that), make the muzzle flash smaller or remove entirely, change the skulk model to not display the bite animation, abuse any exploit as long as you can get away with it(such as the former flash light build and ammo exploits, wall strafe, reload the grenade launcher directly from the armory(this isn't as old as it seems, there was an exploit only a version or two back and I saw plenty enough use this one without anyone noticing/caring), the former _special - exploit bh script and pistol script, shot acid rockets through thin walls wherever applicable, marine "zig-zag" walking to gain speed, remove the devour sprite so you can see where you are while being devoured, enable a3d explicitly because you know it is bugged and lets you hear things over longer distances not because you want to use a3d but because it gives you an advantage(users must of course be able to choose their hardware as they wish, but this is quite a big advantage and it just feels cheap...), use clip bugs to "stick" to hard to reach corners while your jetpack is recharging so that you can stay out of reach of that hungry onos while you normally couldn't etc.), make certain sounds much longer so you can hear where the player is long afterwards and all the other things I forgot/never thought of).
Doing one thing like this isn't going to make much of a difference and no one will care, but grab every little advantage you can and it adds up pretty quickly even if none of them by itself is an outright cheat.
I have no problems with customization as long as it's only point isn't to make you play better, often with a big reduction of atmosphere and good looks. Customization never need add or remove things from the game that effect gameplay, they should customize things that are allready there.
The problem is lots of the things you listed ARE cheats... anyway I really don't think that would make a player 2 times better.
And just because something gives you an advantadge doesn't make it a cheat. What if you have a better computer? Is that a cheat? Changing/adding a crosshair isn't at all a cheat...
No, stuff that gives an advantage isn't cheating, stuff that gives an UNFAIR advantage is cheating (or adding stuff to "help" that isn't normally there). Exploits are also cheating, a lot of them are just considered "ok" in NS it seems.
No RBS you cannot define an exploit as cheating. Just because it wasn't intended by the game developer doesn't mean it is a cheat. There ARE some exploits that are cheats/unfair, but exploits that take skill and add to the game are cool and are not cheats <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> (for example, bhop, and conc jumping from TF)
What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with getting a new xhair. Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS. There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+May 20 2004, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ May 20 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No RBS you cannot define an exploit as cheating. Just because it wasn't intended by the game developer doesn't mean it is a cheat. There ARE some exploits that are cheats/unfair, but exploits that take skill and add to the game are cool and are not cheats <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> (for example, bhop, and conc jumping from TF)
What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with getting a new xhair. Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS. There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I think of an exploit as something that is broken with a game that someone takes advantage of for personal benefit (not just something that wasn't intended by the devs for a game), I may be by myself in that but I consider it cheating.
Bhopping is actually an exploit in the HL engine (which was why it was removed in CS), in fact if I recall it can distort hitboxes. Do I have a problem with it? No, not really, it doesn't really tip the scales that much since aliens move at such fast speeds without it. It's not hard to learn to do either. Still, technically it IS taking advantage of something that is broken. I would label it as cheating just because I label exploits under the same catagory (how is bile bombing through walls any different?), but again, it isn't really "wrong" because it is widely accepted by the NS community.
As for a crosshair for devour, I don't really care if someone uses it or not, they aren't going to really perform any better. Similarly, a marine with good aim won't have a problem against a decent bhopping skulk if it is down a long tunnel as they would with a decent non-bhopping skulk down a long tunnel.
What I would consider as cheating that is wrong or cheap (as in deserves a ban from the face of existance <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->) is something like models that glow or as you listed, esp, aimbots, wallhacks, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem is lots of the things you listed ARE cheats... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that would be because I listed mostly things that I consider to be minor cheats or at least very cheap things to do, I consider adding or removing stuff from the game just to give you and advantage cheating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->anyway I really don't think that would make a player 2 times better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do. If I could find descent servers with consisitency checking I wouldn't play anywhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just because something gives you an advantadge doesn't make it a cheat. What if you have a better computer? Is that a cheat? Changing/adding a crosshair isn't at all a cheat...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You weren't intended to add a crosshair, you were intended to customize things to your liking but I don't think you where intended to ADD or REMOVE things from the game on your side with the intention of giving you an advantage. Just because they haven't locked it down(yet?) doesn't mean it's not unfair.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but you were intended to customize your controlls and hardware to your liking, sadly MS decided that no mouse acceleration is evil and decided to force everyone to use obscure registry tweaks to remove it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but my point was that while most people can't justify cheating with wallhacks, esp, aimbots, speedhacks or horribly coloured models they could justify alot of minor "tweaks" such as those I listed above. Therefor I think this is a bigger problem, the number of users is probably much higher and why I think these should be locked down. I've tried crosshairs for devour among other things against a bunch of bots, and it's much harder to miss with them than without them, even though bots are retarded and don't even try to dodge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled ou<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree and I have yet to see any descent server use consistency checking at all. Removing muzzle flash isn't a minor advantage, even when though it's not as big a problem as in 1.04 where it was huge.
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+May 20 2004, 07:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ May 20 2004, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but you were intended to customize your controlls and hardware to your liking, sadly MS decided that no mouse acceleration is evil and decided to force everyone to use obscure registry tweaks to remove it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same can be said about a devour crosshair... You're intended (who cares about intended anyway? the top players of the game have a far better insight than the developers do) to be able to customize your crosshairs to your liking, sadly Flayra decided that a devour crosshair is evil and decided to force everyone to download a crosshair for devour manually. Seriously you're really streching it here.
And wey, most of the things we're talking about make such a tiny difference it doesn't matter. Just wondering, how would you know if it made the difference between good players and the best? :/ Have you looked over the best players shoulders and seen them using no muzzleflash or something? Anyway, the bottom line is this, don't change your models, don't use a hook, and change your sprites all you want (except for a few which shouldn't be changed).
By the way RBS, bhop is accepted because it takes skill to do, unlike bile bombing through the floor or using duck as a fade. Exploits have to be determined as legal or illegal by the general community...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Same can be said about a devour crosshair... You're intended (who cares about intended anyway? the top players of the game have a far better insight than the developers do) to be able to customize your crosshairs to your liking, sadly Flayra decided that a devour crosshair is evil and decided to force everyone to download a crosshair for devour manually. Seriously you're really streching it here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The comparison you're trying to make is really far fetched.
While we know nothing about wheter Flayra intended us to add or remove minor features from the game like the devour crosshair in order to give us an advantage, we do know that we were intended to use whatever hardware we have simply because it would leave to few players and be to harsh to dissallow certain people.
You do agree that models and <some> sprites should be left alone, why is this? What is the principal difference between adding a crosshair for devour and removing the muzzle flash(you agree that this is cheating right?), or adding a spike to a model other than the severity of the advantage you get. Sadly Flayra decided that models should not have thin spikes that stretch out to infinity so you had to download/make them yourself, if you wish to continue the analogy.
The only difference in our opinions that I can see is where to draw the line between customization and cheating except that I shy way from adding or removing things from the game. How big an unfair advantage is cheating, and how much of an advantage does a crosshair for devour give you is really what it gets down to.
<!--QuoteBegin-Soylent green+May 21 2004, 09:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ May 21 2004, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You do agree that models and <some> sprites should be left alone, why is this? What is the principal difference between adding a crosshair for devour and removing the muzzle flash(you agree that this is cheating right?), or adding a spike to a model other than the severity of the advantage you get. Sadly Flayra decided that models should not have thin spikes that stretch out to infinity so you had to download/make them yourself, if you wish to continue the analogy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol... because it ISNT A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE. It's a matter of gray. I decided that changing any xhair is totally legal. As have most people <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol... because it ISNT A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE. It's a matter of gray. I decided that changing any xhair is totally legal. As have most people<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't a black and white issue, but YOU are the one acting like it is. You decided you think one thing is totally legal allthough there really isn't much but the severity of the advantage to seperate it from outright cheats such as coloured/glowing/spiked model replacements.
There are no rules, no one can check at wich point you leave tuning/customising to enter cheating.
Until the game is safe, that you perfectly knows what can be tuned and what are the effects, i would vote for no customisation, no scripts, no client tuning etc. ...
But this is pointless, every one do what he wants. We have to deal with cheaters and with peeps who don't think they are but are not so far from it.
Yep, i'd like to find good servers with consistency checks too.
Comments
I don't think crosshair for devour is an exploit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's just a little cheat. Your not supposed to have one and it makes devouring much easier.
Pink model replacements isn't an exploit either, since you're not abusing a bug, it is a cheat however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <i>Dashy</i>
people can alter the skins and cross hairs from most Ns site any way. i myself use a high definition minigun for my HMG and i dont consider it a cheat in any way because its not effecting my game play or giving me an advanatage as for muzzle flare u GOTTA have muzzle flare OMG with out its your just firing a high pitch noise gun with out the fire works <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Duh, of course you can customize your game to your liking. Regular model replacements offer no advantage, however I don't think you can deny that additive pink model replacements do offer a pretty big advantage, and that having a crosshair for an unscoped sniper weapon, devour or bite is a slight advantage. These are things that don't make the game look better, infact alot uglier, but they help you play better and aren't a legitimate way to customize your game.
This says something to me about people's inaccuracy in detecting a cheater. So I am going to give you some guidelines for determining, in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner, if someone is cheating:
(1) SUSPECT: If you SUSPECT someone of cheating, do NOT accuse them yet; specifically, don't spout off about "omg h4xoring," etc.
(2) SPECTATE: Go into SPECTATE mode and observe them. You may realize they are just good or just got lucky.
(3) DEMO: If instead your suspicions are raised, start recording a DEMO. Do this by typing "record demonamehere" in the console. Record the demo for a LONG TIME. 1 minute doesn't cut it (except for extremely obvious SPEEDhacks). You will preferably want to record for the remainder of the round or longer.
- At this point, you will either be absolutely positively convinced the player is cheating(read more about this below), or you may be slightly unsure. If you are completely convinced:
(1) Type "status" into the console. This will bring up a list of the players and their statistics. Read the ID number of the suspected cheater and "say #" it in the game so it is included in your demo. Remember to get the actual steamID and not just the temporary server player number.
(2) Report the suspect to the admins on THAT SERVER's forums. Include all relevant information such as: The date and time of day the cheating occured, the specific server (if forums apply to multiple servers), the nickname of the suspect, the kind of cheats used, other players who were playing on the server that may assist in verification of the suspect, the suspect's ID number, and offer your demo for viewing.
- If you are NOT absolutely positively convinced, there are more options for you.
(1) Firstly, you can ask other players or an admin to spectate/demo the suspect as well to get another opinion.
(2) You can VIEW the demo you made! But this time in slow motion. Type "playdemo demonamehere.dem 0.7" in the console, where "0.7" is the speed constant. The demo will play slower (in this case 70% of original speed) in order to help you see more clearly the fast-paced action of NS. Of course you can use whatever speed constant you want.
(3) Follow the reporting guidelines above if you were completely convinced the suspect was cheating. Otherwise, study the demo and get better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some tips for first-person spectating to observe cheating:
(1) Forget about detecting little things like model changes. In NS these kinds of cheats can easily be explained away by sound or just expert NS player intuition (not NSPlayer intuition), and they won't help crappy players an enormous amount anyway.
(2) Instead, the primary cheats you are looking to detect with first-person spectating are speed hacks and aim bots. Speed hacks are a no-brainer... when someone uses skulk bite 10 times in 0.3 seconds, it's a speed hack. Watch out with pistol speed though, it IS humanly possible, without speed hack, to fire off that pistol very quickly.
(3) Aim bots, on the other hand, can be difficult. As mentioned previously in this thread, there are simple aim bots (or settings) that make it possible to easily identify an aim bot. The player is aiming no where near the target and presses fire and voila! the crosshair snaps to the target and follows it perfectly. Until the target is dead in which case the crosshair snaps back to its original position, lol.
BUT there are also aimbots with settings that can make the aiming algorithm smoother and slower to make it look more natural (as mentioned previously in the thread). This is when the time scaling option of demo playback is very helpful. You're going to be looking for markedly human aiming movements. What does this mean? Aiming movements that go PAST the intended target, or above or below it, or switching targets intelligently, or a non-straight-line or non-parabolic (if target is moving) aiming movement, or adjustment in an erroneous aiming movement in the middle of it. Any of these could validate the player as not using an aimbot. You see, the problem is, many of the best aimers use a jolty aiming motion with their mouse toward the target and then follow it smoothly, just like an aimbot does. It's the little nuances in how this is done that can differentiate a really good aimer from an aimbotter. And being good at the game is not enough to help you differentiate the two, especially with the availability of advanced aimbots and the prevalence of good marines. You have to watch lots of demos of very good aimers and lots of demos of aimbotters. I would say that the main difference is the "perfectish" paths that aimbots follow: they follow a path directly to the target model and lock to it. Real humans sometimes overshoot. And real humans mess up sometimes. This is why you need a long demo. Because real human players will mess up sometimes, and even if it's a small mess up, this will validate their skill.
SO, in closing, what have we learned (besides the fact that I like numbered lists)? We have learned how to respond to suspected cheaters in NS.
I made this post because I remember CS like other people do: "six kills in a row in cs = kicked by console". And I hate it. So please respond to cheating in NS as is fitting for the NS community... in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner.
Thank you for reading. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This says something to me about people's inaccuracy in detecting a cheater. So I am going to give you some guidelines for determining, in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner, if someone is cheating:
(1) SUSPECT: If you SUSPECT someone of cheating, do NOT accuse them yet; specifically, don't spout off about "omg h4xoring," etc.
(2) SPECTATE: Go into SPECTATE mode and observe them. You may realize they are just good or just got lucky.
(3) DEMO: If instead your suspicions are raised, start recording a DEMO. Do this by typing "record demonamehere" in the console. Record the demo for a LONG TIME. 1 minute doesn't cut it (except for extremely obvious SPEEDhacks). You will preferably want to record for the remainder of the round or longer.
- At this point, you will either be absolutely positively convinced the player is cheating(read more about this below), or you may be slightly unsure. If you are completely convinced:
(1) Type "status" into the console. This will bring up a list of the players and their statistics. Read the ID number of the suspected cheater and "say #" it in the game so it is included in your demo. Remember to get the actual steamID and not just the temporary server player number.
(2) Report the suspect to the admins on THAT SERVER's forums. Include all relevant information such as: The date and time of day the cheating occured, the specific server (if forums apply to multiple servers), the nickname of the suspect, the kind of cheats used, other players who were playing on the server that may assist in verification of the suspect, the suspect's ID number, and offer your demo for viewing.
- If you are NOT absolutely positively convinced, there are more options for you.
(1) Firstly, you can ask other players or an admin to spectate/demo the suspect as well to get another opinion.
(2) You can VIEW the demo you made! But this time in slow motion. Type "playdemo demonamehere.dem 0.7" in the console, where "0.7" is the speed constant. The demo will play slower (in this case 70% of original speed) in order to help you see more clearly the fast-paced action of NS. Of course you can use whatever speed constant you want.
(3) Follow the reporting guidelines above if you were completely convinced the suspect was cheating. Otherwise, study the demo and get better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Some tips for first-person spectating to observe cheating:
(1) Forget about detecting little things like model changes. In NS these kinds of cheats can easily be explained away by sound or just expert NS player intuition (not NSPlayer intuition), and they won't help crappy players an enormous amount anyway.
(2) Instead, the primary cheats you are looking to detect with first-person spectating are speed hacks and aim bots. Speed hacks are a no-brainer... when someone uses skulk bite 10 times in 0.3 seconds, it's a speed hack. Watch out with pistol speed though, it IS humanly possible, without speed hack, to fire off that pistol very quickly.
(3) Aim bots, on the other hand, can be difficult. As mentioned previously in this thread, there are simple aim bots (or settings) that make it possible to easily identify an aim bot. The player is aiming no where near the target and presses fire and voila! the crosshair snaps to the target and follows it perfectly. Until the target is dead in which case the crosshair snaps back to its original position, lol.
BUT there are also aimbots with settings that can make the aiming algorithm smoother and slower to make it look more natural (as mentioned previously in the thread). This is when the time scaling option of demo playback is very helpful. You're going to be looking for markedly human aiming movements. What does this mean? Aiming movements that go PAST the intended target, or above or below it, or switching targets intelligently, or a non-straight-line or non-parabolic (if target is moving) aiming movement, or adjustment in an erroneous aiming movement in the middle of it. Any of these could validate the player as not using an aimbot. You see, the problem is, many of the best aimers use a jolty aiming motion with their mouse toward the target and then follow it smoothly, just like an aimbot does. It's the little nuances in how this is done that can differentiate a really good aimer from an aimbotter. And being good at the game is not enough to help you differentiate the two, especially with the availability of advanced aimbots and the prevalence of good marines. You have to watch lots of demos of very good aimers and lots of demos of aimbotters. I would say that the main difference is the "perfectish" paths that aimbots follow: they follow a path directly to the target model and lock to it. Real humans sometimes overshoot. And real humans mess up sometimes. This is why you need a long demo. Because real human players will mess up sometimes, and even if it's a small mess up, this will validate their skill.
SO, in closing, what have we learned (besides the fact that I like numbered lists)? We have learned how to respond to suspected cheaters in NS.
I made this post because I remember CS like other people do: "six kills in a row in cs = kicked by console". And I hate it. So please respond to cheating in NS as is fitting for the NS community... in a MATURE and INTELLIGENT manner.
Thank you for reading. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to do this, there are lots of excellent points here, and most of the time this method will work, but realize that some hacks just aren't detectible using these methods.
Some hacks detect weather a player is being observed and turn themselfs off while the someone is watching, and nearly all hacks can be turned off at one touch by the player using them (thus sometimes hackers will leave the hack off for short periods of time so your demo will pick up thier human movements). Furthur more ESP hacks which are arguably just as adventagous (I know I play better with motion tracking at least) are all but indectable unless the player is stupid and shoots cloaked units while his team doesn't have MT or picks off player in dark ambush spots who have been hiding thier for a long time.
If you knowtice someone who plays incredibly well, but can't seem to place a shot while your spectating him to save his life, either make an admin aware of your supicions discreatly, or join another server. You really can't prove anything.
"A primary give-away with cheat use is that when an aimbot is in use, the player is able to turn through any angle in one frame, rather than turning at the speed of a mouse being moved from side to side. To spot this, trail a player when dead and lock your view onto his. If the player is instantly changing angles (and the end point of the movement being a hostile player), he is cheating.
Another way of noticing this behaviour is when a cheat engages two or more players. When the first player is killed, the cheater's aim will instantly shift onto the next player. "
I've seen this in NS, it is particularily noticeable in NS versus CS or DoD (wich are played mainly in one horizontal plan).
I've seen guys, instantly changing angle from front to rear and top to bottom in complex situations geeee... so obvious.
I don't think crosshair for devour is an exploit<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's just a little cheat. Your not supposed to have one and it makes devouring much easier. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol... a devour xhair is NOT A CHEAT. Neither is a xhair for bite or swipe. Period.
I'll use it.
I don't use any extra x-hairs incase you were wondering.
I intentionally encoded them in low res and not perfect quality to keep the file size down,. I know they're far from perfect, but they are completely watchable.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "horrendous", unless you're having technical issues your end, that is.
So stop being so picky, i'd rather people only have to download a 1mb-4mb file as opposed to a 10-20mb perfectly encoded file. This is meant to be a quick reference.
I intentionally encoded them in low res and not perfect quality to keep the file size down,. I know they're far from perfect, but they are completely watchable.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "horrendous", unless you're having technical issues your end, that is.
So stop being so picky, i'd rather people only have to download a 1mb-4mb file as opposed to a 10-20mb perfectly encoded file. This is meant to be a quick reference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah, I couldn't see them at all. I think its something with brightness.
(also i dont hack ns even tho that was a hack site i just use it for games like starcraft or ra2 but when i saw the therad topic i wanted to see what it was)
Obviously it isn't a big cheat and it's not something that's going to ruin the game for everyone. But it DOES give you an advantage, why else would you have it, it certainly doesn't look any nicer?
Your obviously pushing me and I didn't want to do this but here goes:
Combine a bunch of these "customizations" and suddenly play twice as well without being twice as good(I'm not kidding. Turn up the gamma, get a good set of crosshairs for all weapons, brighten player model textures a bit so they stick out more(after all it's only a bit brighter so it could be rationalized away as only a minor cheat if even that), make the muzzle flash smaller or remove entirely, change the skulk model to not display the bite animation, abuse any exploit as long as you can get away with it(such as the former flash light build and ammo exploits, wall strafe, reload the grenade launcher directly from the armory(this isn't as old as it seems, there was an exploit only a version or two back and I saw plenty enough use this one without anyone noticing/caring), the former _special - exploit bh script and pistol script, shot acid rockets through thin walls wherever applicable, marine "zig-zag" walking to gain speed, remove the devour sprite so you can see where you are while being devoured, enable a3d explicitly because you know it is bugged and lets you hear things over longer distances not because you want to use a3d but because it gives you an advantage(users must of course be able to choose their hardware as they wish, but this is quite a big advantage and it just feels cheap...), use clip bugs to "stick" to hard to reach corners while your jetpack is recharging so that you can stay out of reach of that hungry onos while you normally couldn't etc.), make certain sounds much longer so you can hear where the player is long afterwards and all the other things I forgot/never thought of).
Doing one thing like this isn't going to make much of a difference and no one will care, but grab every little advantage you can and it adds up pretty quickly even if none of them by itself is an outright cheat.
I have no problems with customization as long as it's only point isn't to make you play better, often with a big reduction of atmosphere and good looks. Customization never need add or remove things from the game that effect gameplay, they should customize things that are allready there.
And just because something gives you an advantadge doesn't make it a cheat. What if you have a better computer? Is that a cheat? Changing/adding a crosshair isn't at all a cheat...
What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with getting a new xhair. Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS. There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What about turning off mouse accel? Would you consider that a cheat? That gives a far greater advantadge that a measly devour crosshair. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with getting a new xhair. Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS. There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think of an exploit as something that is broken with a game that someone takes advantage of for personal benefit (not just something that wasn't intended by the devs for a game), I may be by myself in that but I consider it cheating.
Bhopping is actually an exploit in the HL engine (which was why it was removed in CS), in fact if I recall it can distort hitboxes. Do I have a problem with it? No, not really, it doesn't really tip the scales that much since aliens move at such fast speeds without it. It's not hard to learn to do either. Still, technically it IS taking advantage of something that is broken. I would label it as cheating just because I label exploits under the same catagory (how is bile bombing through walls any different?), but again, it isn't really "wrong" because it is widely accepted by the NS community.
As for a crosshair for devour, I don't really care if someone uses it or not, they aren't going to really perform any better. Similarly, a marine with good aim won't have a problem against a decent bhopping skulk if it is down a long tunnel as they would with a decent non-bhopping skulk down a long tunnel.
What I would consider as cheating that is wrong or cheap (as in deserves a ban from the face of existance <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->) is something like models that glow or as you listed, esp, aimbots, wallhacks, etc.
Thanks for posting this esuna
Yes, that would be because I listed mostly things that I consider to be minor cheats or at least very cheap things to do, I consider adding or removing stuff from the game just to give you and advantage cheating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->anyway I really don't think that would make a player 2 times better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do. If I could find descent servers with consisitency checking I wouldn't play anywhere else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And just because something gives you an advantadge doesn't make it a cheat. What if you have a better computer? Is that a cheat? Changing/adding a crosshair isn't at all a cheat...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You weren't intended to add a crosshair, you were intended to customize things to your liking but I don't think you where intended to ADD or REMOVE things from the game on your side with the intention of giving you an advantage. Just because they haven't locked it down(yet?) doesn't mean it's not unfair.
It does, but you were intended to customize your controlls and hardware to your liking, sadly MS decided that no mouse acceleration is evil and decided to force everyone to use obscure registry tweaks to remove it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nitpick about it all you want but it isn't a cheat... Speedhacking, aimbotting, wallhacking, esp, and custom models are the only things (that I know of) I'd consider cheating (in the 'get banned from CAL' sense) in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but my point was that while most people can't justify cheating with wallhacks, esp, aimbots, speedhacks or horribly coloured models they could justify alot of minor "tweaks" such as those I listed above. Therefor I think this is a bigger problem, the number of users is probably much higher and why I think these should be locked down. I've tried crosshairs for devour among other things against a bunch of bots, and it's much harder to miss with them than without them, even though bots are retarded and don't even try to dodge.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are some sprites you can change for a *minor minor* advantadge but they are pretty much negligible, so it's not a big deal. Besides if I hear right, consistency works now so they are pretty much ruled ou<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dissagree and I have yet to see any descent server use consistency checking at all. Removing muzzle flash isn't a minor advantage, even when though it's not as big a problem as in 1.04 where it was huge.
These small "tweaks" <b>can</b> make the difference between the good and the best players.
It does, but you were intended to customize your controlls and hardware to your liking, sadly MS decided that no mouse acceleration is evil and decided to force everyone to use obscure registry tweaks to remove it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same can be said about a devour crosshair... You're intended (who cares about intended anyway? the top players of the game have a far better insight than the developers do) to be able to customize your crosshairs to your liking, sadly Flayra decided that a devour crosshair is evil and decided to force everyone to download a crosshair for devour manually. Seriously you're really streching it here.
And wey, most of the things we're talking about make such a tiny difference it doesn't matter. Just wondering, how would you know if it made the difference between good players and the best? :/ Have you looked over the best players shoulders and seen them using no muzzleflash or something? Anyway, the bottom line is this, don't change your models, don't use a hook, and change your sprites all you want (except for a few which shouldn't be changed).
By the way RBS, bhop is accepted because it takes skill to do, unlike bile bombing through the floor or using duck as a fade. Exploits have to be determined as legal or illegal by the general community...
The comparison you're trying to make is really far fetched.
While we know nothing about wheter Flayra intended us to add or remove minor features from the game like the devour crosshair in order to give us an advantage, we do know that we were intended to use whatever hardware we have simply because it would leave to few players and be to harsh to dissallow certain people.
You do agree that models and <some> sprites should be left alone, why is this? What is the principal difference between adding a crosshair for devour and removing the muzzle flash(you agree that this is cheating right?), or adding a spike to a model other than the severity of the advantage you get. Sadly Flayra decided that models should not have thin spikes that stretch out to infinity so you had to download/make them yourself, if you wish to continue the analogy.
The only difference in our opinions that I can see is where to draw the line between customization and cheating except that I shy way from adding or removing things from the game. How big an unfair advantage is cheating, and how much of an advantage does a crosshair for devour give you is really what it gets down to.
lol... because it ISNT A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE. It's a matter of gray. I decided that changing any xhair is totally legal. As have most people <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It's pretty simple...
Shh, it's a cheatsite <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
No it isn't a black and white issue, but YOU are the one acting like it is. You decided you think one thing is totally legal allthough there really isn't much but the severity of the advantage to seperate it from outright cheats such as coloured/glowing/spiked model replacements.
Shh, it's a cheatsite <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol?
There are no rules, no one can check at wich point you leave tuning/customising to enter cheating.
Until the game is safe, that you perfectly knows what can be tuned and what are the effects, i would vote for no customisation, no scripts, no client tuning etc. ...
But this is pointless, every one do what he wants. We have to deal with cheaters and with peeps who don't think they are but are not so far from it.
Yep, i'd like to find good servers with consistency checks too.