<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuSquirrel+Mar 22 2004, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Mar 22 2004, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, I'm confused... did the updated version of Veil get into the 3.0 beta or not? Some of you talk about the North Loop and changes to the map, but others comment on changes that <i>have already been made</i>. Please, for the sake of my sanity, make sure you are in fact talking about the newest version!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there are a few people who were confused by this statement in your original post KFS:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but Veil has a few notable changes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think several people interpretted this to mean that the version you are currently working on (and has not been publically released) has several <b>new</b> notable changes, when I'm fairly confident you were referring to the changes we've already seen (Northloop and removal of the Monitoring Pods).
And since I forgot to add it to my first post, congrats on the Job.
<!--QuoteBegin-Thrillhouse+Mar 22 2004, 01:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thrillhouse @ Mar 22 2004, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Marines start, the ledge. The only time I've seen this used is when the marines are hopeless and they just plant like 20 turrets up there prolonging the game another 10-30 minutes. I understand that its there for strategy (to actually put turrets up there in the begining), but it's more abused than it is used <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, this ledge needs to go. It looks cool, so I'd say keep it for astetics, perhaps just make it a no-build zone? Once in a 20 player server we managed to hold off the Kharaa team for over <b>2 hours</b> from up there. 10 marines in heavy armor with HMG's and GL's just defending from that position is insane. Not even constant Xenocide and Acid spam could touch us.
<!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Mar 22 2004, 10:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Mar 22 2004, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Agreed, this ledge needs to go. It looks cool, so I'd say keep it for astetics, perhaps just make it a no-build zone? Once in a 20 player server we managed to hold off the Kharaa team for over <b>2 hours</b> from up there. 10 marines in heavy armor with HMG's and GL's just defending from that position is insane. Not even constant Xenocide and Acid spam could touch us. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, but making it a no build zone wouldn't really help with that anyway. Just drop the armory at the bottom of the ladder. Make it even harder for an onos to clean up heavies. I'm still voting for lowering and adding ramps, or else removing the ladders and turning it into a minor bit of cover for skulks to run up and hide in.
Edit: Also, on the topic of red room. You might go ahead and add an info_location and give it its commonly used name, since right now it's just a nameless vent.
I agree with alot of the problems with ns_nothing. As it has been stated about generator being a key location and yet hard to attack from the lower level, I have a cosmetic suggestion.
UKchaos mentioned: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want to try something drastic, consider replacing the generator room elevator with a set of stairs/ramps ( think eclipse's SAA balcony but on a larger scale).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had this thought too and was thinking something like lowering the entire room half the distance between the upper and lower level and ramp the hallways leading in and out with a hooking hallway (like the lower hallway is off the elevator; same in size also) and moving the node to the middle.
Or, keeping the same location of the room with ramps mentioned above, keep the hallways in and out straight and adding a <u>generator</u> in the generator room (not one like the enormous one in hera's maintenance room) or anything to add some cover and remove the catwalk.
And yes, a vent or two leading into it would be nice.
Eclipse: -Its way too hard to drop meds in eclipse hive. There are several areas that are of an odd texture that meds and stuff won't drop on.
-in pub games, keyhole is an incredibly powerful position for marines. most aliens just run into the hallways and get killed. I think a little nancy like vent system connected horseshoe to southloop and a vent that opens up on the opposite side of horseshoe that makes maintainance a better hive. right now i think it's significantly weaker then comp core or eclipse in pub games, not so sure about scrims.
Veil: -I agree that north loop is an incredibly powerful point to siege from. a vent from double to north loop would help aliens out greatly.
-I think a vent from overlook to west skylights would be good.
Nothing:
I think nothing has a potential to be an interesting map, the elevators give it a diffferent pace then all NS maps. But like Mineshaft, it falls under the category of poorly implemented more often then not. Powersilo is by far the weakest hive and needs vents to help skulks out. But it isn't the only place. Nothing has the problem of a lot of long hallways where any marine with good aim can take up a strong position. For skulks, the only way to do anything is to run around the back, and that takes too long.
My only suggestion for NS_Nothing is to re-introduce the circular pit in the center of Generator (with or without guard rails), and have some vents leading to it somewhere at the top of the hole (Someone suggested on page 2 for some vents to lead to generator, this would be a great place to end them).
It would be a great place for skulks, lerks, and the occasional fade to pop out of. (or even jetpacks)
although, the "where does theis new vent end? man, it goes on forev--- oh shi--" might occur.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2004
A few things I can think of.
Nothing-
Yes, a vent of some kind in powersilo. And I kinda like the idea of a vent from ominous to gen, dont know how that would work out.
The elevators getting jammed is an onos trap. Put a nice high kill for structures, and, so both buttons can't be pushed to jam it up, point both buttons at a hidden button in the wall that has a reset time that will wait for the elev to finish moving, this hidden button will target the elevator. Seems to work pretty well to me at the expense of one entity.
PLZ put the pit back, and the walkway in MS, they feel just too empty.
Veil- I just don't like how its so open and bright. Especially with the addition of northloop, the areas to the right and left of DBL are very open. Oh, and do infest the hives a lil more, I love how eclipse hive is done. Put some of that nice stuff in. KFS, there ARE some spots where u can still get stuck as onos, I haven't played veil in a while, so i couldn't tell u where.
Eclipse- I kinda like maint, using those under passages to freak out rines, hehe, running around... But, keyhole is too easy to defend, put the exit from maint back in SL.
I do gotta say this, when ppl say that maps that are all halls don't work, and put that statement to nothing. Eclipse is the same way, so is veil, they are just more open halls.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Thanks for the feedback, guys, I should be able to start sorting through all of it Friday and maybe get some progress made this weekend.
Could someone get back to me on where any Onos stick points are in Veil as it currently is in the 3.0 beta? I could have sworn I covered all of these, but I may have overlooked one somewhere. Let me know.
And, of course, no promises that anything addressed here will be fixed! Some items are more reasonable than others; we'll see how it turns out.
<!--QuoteBegin-KungFuSquirrel+Mar 23 2004, 11:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Mar 23 2004, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Could someone get back to me on where any Onos stick points are in Veil as it currently is in the 3.0 beta? I could have sworn I covered all of these, but I may have overlooked one somewhere. Let me know.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is definitely an Onos stuck point on the western set of stairs at The Dome: <img src='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_dome_stuck.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Now with Mappy Goodness <img src='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_dome_map.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
It's bad enough that you have to duck to get up <u>or</u> down the stairs. I've tried it while going at normal speed, walking, celerity and charge with the same results.
There is another <u><b>almost</b></u> stuck point (<a href='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_almost_stuck.jpg' target='_blank'>image</a> and <a href='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_almost_map.jpg' target='_blank'>map</a>), but all that happens as you travel down the ramp is you smack your Giant, Bulbous Onos Head (like an Orange on a Toothpick) on the overhang and then travel onward. I'm not sure that one is worth messing with.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Great, JazzX, thanks for the info. I'll get both of those fixed. Makes sense why the latter is just a bump - the ramp gives just a tad more clearance than a hard step would.
Received a notable bug (exploitable, no less) in ns_nothing via PM, so that is a must-fix as well.
Also, I forgot to mention this, but would it be possible to make a few more weldables in eclipse, and maybe one more vent?
Say like in triad, the vent there could be welded shut. You know, not the vent that goes from eclipse to triad, but the vent that is at the top of triad.
You could also make a vent that goes from south loop to comp core, and that one could be welded shut as well.
Congrats of making so good map. After those little changes (like adding north loop, removing ms vents), this map has become one of my favorites. Especially great map for a fade, who can freely blink around the map without getting constantly stuck to objects size ofan ant. Still, there is a few, small details I would like to see:
1) West skylights vent. Make it higher or something, as marines are somehow able to reach it.
2) When going to cargo hive from pipeline, there is this long corridor between them which reminds me of tram tunnel in ns_Bast. You know what? Yes, this one has the very same problem -it's impossible for aliens. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
3) Pipeline hive is a bit... boring. Why not add a propell to the ceiling (a l? Vent in ns_Hera) and a bottomless pit to the floor? Would certainly make the room more interesting.
4) That railing in marine start, behind those small pillars... I have always felt like it *demands* a window to space behind it to make it just perfect.
<b>ns_Eclipse:</b>
If there were only two maps on my list of favorites, it would be Eclipse and Veil. But yet again there are some things that could be better.
1) Design-wise the current marine start is quite plain. Worse, because of this it also contributes to prolonged end-games. The marine CC seems like it's some minor object somewhere at the side of the ms, when it should be the central target. I would suggest that you would make the marine start like some space port (like in that one combat map), but leaving the basic layout untouched (railings). Boxes, lights, and maybe a nasty vent too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
2) Maintenance hive access. When looking from the hive, the right side access (that used to be direct) has become the favorite sieging spot for marines. For a good reason: it's just out of the hive's healing range, can clear out the whole hive area, and to attack them the aliens need to pass through a plain corridor that needs just two decend marines to hold it against any number of skulks. Either move the hive closer to the wall (so the area is covered in hive's healing range), or add something to distract the view (like pipes blowing out smoke, a l? ns_Ayami).
<b>ns_Nothing:</b>
Good map, but not as enterntaining as it could be. Very much fun, though, because both marines and skulks can play "hide'n'seek" in this map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Still...
1) Powersilo access, for aliens, is a pain in the **** because of those long corridors. Sure deathtrap for onos, who is just too weak and slow to make any damage to a marine base there (with just a few turrets and a single rine). Also, aesthetically those corridors are boring. Add pipes, more room, and maybe some smoke/boxes to make this area a bit more interesting.
2) Those lifts. Like said; they are difficult and slow. Powersilo lift is good as it is -makes rushes from ms to silo impossible, but that central lift is a bit of an question. I think it should be removed to allow marines easier access to silo and viaduct, and vice versa. Maybe a weldable manhole? Also, generator lift is both PITA and necessary to slow down gen relocate + rush to viaduct, but still the lift is a pain for slower lifeforms (not for marines, though, since they just jam the lift and crouch past the opening).
3) Contrary to previous opinion, I think red room is very necessary as a "second chance" siege spot. But again; those corridors around it are dull. Add something nifty there.
ns_veil: Add vents that end in north loop, maybe extend the nanogrid vents to have an exit on the other side. Also, drop some crates or some rubble and stuff in some of the long hallways to give smaller lifeforms some cover. Some examples would be the hallway from topographical to eastern junction, the hallway from junction to the dome, the hallway from western skylights to overlook, and northloop.
lucky I checked here I guess, well, lucky for me :p
I'm not going to scare you away with heaps of huge changes, in fact, I only have two that shouldn't take too long... well, maybe.
Basically, I suggest changing the path from foreboding antechamber to powersilo so the doorway is blocked (see red leet spraypaint) and a new path leads along to the left half way across. This would remove a couple of long corridoors, make the walls in foreboding on that side useful and make silo more attractive.
(edit: You could reuse the existing corridoor behind the doorway, sorta move it along and make the left side of foreboding solid walls and stuff while the right hand side still had the drop...)
see linked images (cbf resizing or gamma correcting, but they aren't too bad. They were taken with 2.0 btw, although because steam is a bit screwey atm, but I'm sure they're the same....sorry. 1024/768.)
Also, maybe you might like to add a platform level with the path coming from the miasma walkway elevator. Sorry the spraypaint doesn't do a very good job at explaining... But moving the resource node from ominous kismet around to where I've marked on the images below might again make powersilo more attractive as it would be closer to the resource node. May also make that lift used more often.
Would be awesome if you could make those lifts func_doors rather then func_trains too, so they don't stop when you press the button :D~
Well, that's my two cents. Eclipse and veil seem alright to me, although the path behind double could use something, I would say a node but then you'd have sieging problems... the long corridoor outside cargo hive could use some boxes too :D~
Congrats on the job btw, was wondering when a developer would snap you up, was kinda hoping for something like hl2 rather then quake tho, not my favourite game :(
Bahamut.
(btw, :D~ is a DROOLING SMILEY. It's not a goatee >:( )
That first image looked like a good idea; it would skulks allow to pass without getting zapped. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) West skylights vent. Make it higher or something, as marines are somehow able to reach it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It requires a 1 marine boost-up to get in. So long as aliens can build chambers beneath the fans in this vent, i think its fair to allow marines to get in it.
I'm too simple-minded to think of anything but strategic aspects
Eclipse: Maintenance - a very lacking starting hive. You only have Horseshoe and South Loop somewhat close by, and Horseshoe is always the lose, because you will always have a couple of marines going down there no matter what. Make the corridors in Keyhole a little bit shorter, so that maintenenance isnt so "remote" ? Apart from that, the map's fine, though in my opinion a little bit "short" distance-wise; it is a little bit easy to get to any single hive from Marine Start in little time. I am not sure whether it is TOO easy.
Veil: This map is too easy for marines. The majority of res nodes are ridiculously easy to control as a marine, and the aliens really lack on this area. Say you start in pipeline; the only ones you can truly get (and hold) are pipe, cargo, c12, and double. Would the commander have any competent marines, he would laugh as he sieges double res, leaving (and KEEPING) the aliens to 3 res nodes. I would suggest making the corridors in the bottom half of the map (so anything between west skylights and overlook, and topo and c12, a lot shorter. It would make it easier for aliens to defend those res nodes, and make it harder for marines to take them out.
Nothing: Certainly an interesting map, but the outcomes depend too much on the starting hives. If it is cargo, and if you have a decent team, you can have Generator, Vent chamber, cargo res node itself, AND the three res nodes around viaduct area. Add to that a little wall of lame in Foreboding, or in Powersilo, and the marines are buggered. If it is Powersilo, it results in aliens not getting the mapcontrol needed for a decent fight. The only one even relatively close by is foreboding. Would marines break into Viaduct early on, you are STUCK with 2 res towers, unless you have a lil bit of lame in Kismet, giving you 3. and meh, why not siege that from generator anyway? Viaduct is just a little bit of both worlds. You have 3 potential res towers, hopefully 4 if you can hold generator. 6 IF you can get foreboding lamed up, adding the one from powersilo. The problem here lies with a likely 2-hive lockdown. If marines rush phase tech and the unbuilt hives, the marines will have 5-6 res towers, depending on whether or not they can force themselves into gen. if they do get into gen, they can also deny the aliens 2 more res nodes by sieging. Its all just a little bit too ... "whats their hive? Oh, we win/lose" I believe the bias should be less in the cargo/generator area, and a little more towards powersilo. Maybe you could delete the corridors between foreboding and powersilo, and make a new, more direct corridor. possibly with a door in there. Move the miasma res node a little bit more to the right, and make Viaduct area also more accessible for the aliens from Powersilo.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 09:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 09:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bahumut those are some great changes for nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, save that poor res from being seiged from gen room.
Not really; think of the gorge, think children <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 25 2004, 10:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 25 2004, 10:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bahumut those are some great changes for nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I totally agree. Those two changes could easily make a huge difference without radically altering the map.
I say for nothing, just add a ladder on two of the elevators.
Veil, it works well. But skulk ambushing positions are VERY open. You can't really hide above a door way because there is nothing to hide you. It's just wide open space. Add some infestation or a pipe or something for hiding.
Eclipse is perfect. Save for SAA, if a marine goes down there, he gets stuck. Add a small ladder entity or something for them to get out. I think the RT in MS is too succeptable to AR fire and what not, and same for the Maintance RT.
I think the powersilo ambience is really loud to compensate for the large area, so marines that enter don't hear the grunts and stuff from the aliens hiding at the top... well, that's what I think anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With regard to station access alpha, I'm going to assume you mean the vent? And the idea of moving the triad resource node closer to the vent on the marine start side would make more use of the alternate pathway behind it I think... maybe.
<!--QuoteBegin-FSHP.Bahamut+Mar 25 2004, 03:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FSHP.Bahamut @ Mar 25 2004, 03:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lucky I checked here I guess, well, lucky for me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm not going to scare you away with heaps of huge changes, in fact, I only have two that shouldn't take too long... well, maybe.
Basically, I suggest changing the path from foreboding antechamber to powersilo so the doorway is blocked (see red leet spraypaint) and a new path leads along to the left half way across. This would remove a couple of long corridoors, make the walls in foreboding on that side useful and make silo more attractive.
(edit: You could reuse the existing corridoor behind the doorway, sorta move it along and make the left side of foreboding solid walls and stuff while the right hand side still had the drop...)
see linked images (cbf resizing or gamma correcting, but they aren't too bad. They were taken with 2.0 btw, although because steam is a bit screwey atm, but I'm sure they're the same....sorry. 1024/768.)
Also, maybe you might like to add a platform level with the path coming from the miasma walkway elevator. Sorry the spraypaint doesn't do a very good job at explaining... But moving the resource node from ominous kismet around to where I've marked on the images below might again make powersilo more attractive as it would be closer to the resource node. May also make that lift used more often.
Would be awesome if you could make those lifts func_doors rather then func_trains too, so they don't stop when you press the button
Well, that's my two cents. Eclipse and veil seem alright to me, although the path behind double could use something, I would say a node but then you'd have sieging problems... the long corridoor outside cargo hive could use some boxes too
Congrats on the job btw, was wondering when a developer would snap you up, was kinda hoping for something like hl2 rather then quake tho, not my favourite game
Bahamut.
(btw, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->~ is a DROOLING SMILEY. It's not a goatee >:( ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> winner
We'll just have to see if KungFuSquirrel wants to try out that arrangement in a low-detail version then detail it if it works or revert it back <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->~
Could probably use something around that other corridoor leading out of powersilo too, perhaps a copy/paste job of the architecture in intimidation? (one of those screenshots where I suggested the platform has a sample of the architecture)
Comments
I think there are a few people who were confused by this statement in your original post KFS:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but Veil has a few notable changes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think several people interpretted this to mean that the version you are currently working on (and has not been publically released) has several <b>new</b> notable changes, when I'm fairly confident you were referring to the changes we've already seen (Northloop and removal of the Monitoring Pods).
And since I forgot to add it to my first post, congrats on the Job.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, this ledge needs to go. It looks cool, so I'd say keep it for astetics, perhaps just make it a no-build zone? Once in a 20 player server we managed to hold off the Kharaa team for over <b>2 hours</b> from up there. 10 marines in heavy armor with HMG's and GL's just defending from that position is insane. Not even constant Xenocide and Acid spam could touch us.
Ah, but making it a no build zone wouldn't really help with that anyway. Just drop the armory at the bottom of the ladder. Make it even harder for an onos to clean up heavies. I'm still voting for lowering and adding ramps, or else removing the ladders and turning it into a minor bit of cover for skulks to run up and hide in.
Edit: Also, on the topic of red room. You might go ahead and add an info_location and give it its commonly used name, since right now it's just a nameless vent.
UKchaos mentioned:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you want to try something drastic, consider replacing the generator room elevator with a set of stairs/ramps ( think eclipse's SAA balcony but on a larger scale).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had this thought too and was thinking something like lowering the entire room half the distance between the upper and lower level and ramp the hallways leading in and out with a hooking hallway (like the lower hallway is off the elevator; same in size also) and moving the node to the middle.
Or, keeping the same location of the room with ramps mentioned above, keep the hallways in and out straight and adding a <u>generator</u> in the generator room (not one like the enormous one in hera's maintenance room) or anything to add some cover and remove the catwalk.
And yes, a vent or two leading into it would be nice.
Eclipse:
-Its way too hard to drop meds in eclipse hive. There are several areas that are of an odd texture that meds and stuff won't drop on.
-in pub games, keyhole is an incredibly powerful position for marines. most aliens just run into the hallways and get killed. I think a little nancy like vent system connected horseshoe to southloop and a vent that opens up on the opposite side of horseshoe that makes maintainance a better hive. right now i think it's significantly weaker then comp core or eclipse in pub games, not so sure about scrims.
Veil:
-I agree that north loop is an incredibly powerful point to siege from. a vent from double to north loop would help aliens out greatly.
-I think a vent from overlook to west skylights would be good.
Nothing:
I think nothing has a potential to be an interesting map, the elevators give it a diffferent pace then all NS maps. But like Mineshaft, it falls under the category of poorly implemented more often then not. Powersilo is by far the weakest hive and needs vents to help skulks out. But it isn't the only place. Nothing has the problem of a lot of long hallways where any marine with good aim can take up a strong position. For skulks, the only way to do anything is to run around the back, and that takes too long.
Please leave elevators on nothing, it makes this map a bit different, other maps dont have elevators anymore..
Veil and eclipse seem to be too easy for marines, but it's probably hard to fix it and they are still fun to play.
It would be a great place for skulks, lerks, and the occasional fade to pop out of. (or even jetpacks)
although, the "where does theis new vent end? man, it goes on forev--- oh shi--" might occur.
Nothing-
Yes, a vent of some kind in powersilo. And I kinda like the idea of a vent from ominous to gen, dont know how that would work out.
The elevators getting jammed is an onos trap. Put a nice high kill for structures, and, so both buttons can't be pushed to jam it up, point both buttons at a hidden button in the wall that has a reset time that will wait for the elev to finish moving, this hidden button will target the elevator. Seems to work pretty well to me at the expense of one entity.
PLZ put the pit back, and the walkway in MS, they feel just too empty.
Veil-
I just don't like how its so open and bright. Especially with the addition of northloop, the areas to the right and left of DBL are very open.
Oh, and do infest the hives a lil more, I love how eclipse hive is done. Put some of that nice stuff in.
KFS, there ARE some spots where u can still get stuck as onos, I haven't played veil in a while, so i couldn't tell u where.
Eclipse-
I kinda like maint, using those under passages to freak out rines, hehe, running around... But, keyhole is too easy to defend, put the exit from maint back in SL.
I do gotta say this, when ppl say that maps that are all halls don't work, and put that statement to nothing. Eclipse is the same way, so is veil, they are just more open halls.
And, since no one said it.
CONGRADULATIONS!!!!! have fun..
Could someone get back to me on where any Onos stick points are in Veil as it currently is in the 3.0 beta? I could have sworn I covered all of these, but I may have overlooked one somewhere. Let me know.
And, of course, no promises that anything addressed here will be fixed! Some items are more reasonable than others; we'll see how it turns out.
There is definitely an Onos stuck point on the western set of stairs at The Dome:
<img src='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_dome_stuck.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Now with Mappy Goodness
<img src='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_dome_map.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
It's bad enough that you have to duck to get up <u>or</u> down the stairs. I've tried it while going at normal speed, walking, celerity and charge with the same results.
There is another <u><b>almost</b></u> stuck point (<a href='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_almost_stuck.jpg' target='_blank'>image</a> and <a href='http://dl.branzone.com/veil_almost_map.jpg' target='_blank'>map</a>), but all that happens as you travel down the ramp is you smack your Giant, Bulbous Onos Head (like an Orange on a Toothpick) on the overhang and then travel onward. I'm not sure that one is worth messing with.
Received a notable bug (exploitable, no less) in ns_nothing via PM, so that is a must-fix as well.
Say like in triad, the vent there could be welded shut. You know, not the vent that goes from eclipse to triad, but the vent that is at the top of triad.
You could also make a vent that goes from south loop to comp core, and that one could be welded shut as well.
<b>ns_Veil:</b>
Congrats of making so good map. After those little changes (like adding north loop, removing ms vents), this map has become one of my favorites. Especially great map for a fade, who can freely blink around the map without getting constantly stuck to objects size ofan ant. Still, there is a few, small details I would like to see:
1) West skylights vent. Make it higher or something, as marines are somehow able to reach it.
2) When going to cargo hive from pipeline, there is this long corridor between them which reminds me of tram tunnel in ns_Bast. You know what? Yes, this one has the very same problem -it's impossible for aliens. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
3) Pipeline hive is a bit... boring. Why not add a propell to the ceiling (a l? Vent in ns_Hera) and a bottomless pit to the floor? Would certainly make the room more interesting.
4) That railing in marine start, behind those small pillars... I have always felt like it *demands* a window to space behind it to make it just perfect.
<b>ns_Eclipse:</b>
If there were only two maps on my list of favorites, it would be Eclipse and Veil. But yet again there are some things that could be better.
1) Design-wise the current marine start is quite plain. Worse, because of this it also contributes to prolonged end-games. The marine CC seems like it's some minor object somewhere at the side of the ms, when it should be the central target. I would suggest that you would make the marine start like some space port (like in that one combat map), but leaving the basic layout untouched (railings). Boxes, lights, and maybe a nasty vent too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
2) Maintenance hive access. When looking from the hive, the right side access (that used to be direct) has become the favorite sieging spot for marines. For a good reason: it's just out of the hive's healing range, can clear out the whole hive area, and to attack them the aliens need to pass through a plain corridor that needs just two decend marines to hold it against any number of skulks. Either move the hive closer to the wall (so the area is covered in hive's healing range), or add something to distract the view (like pipes blowing out smoke, a l? ns_Ayami).
<b>ns_Nothing:</b>
Good map, but not as enterntaining as it could be. Very much fun, though, because both marines and skulks can play "hide'n'seek" in this map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Still...
1) Powersilo access, for aliens, is a pain in the **** because of those long corridors. Sure deathtrap for onos, who is just too weak and slow to make any damage to a marine base there (with just a few turrets and a single rine). Also, aesthetically those corridors are boring. Add pipes, more room, and maybe some smoke/boxes to make this area a bit more interesting.
2) Those lifts. Like said; they are difficult and slow. Powersilo lift is good as it is -makes rushes from ms to silo impossible, but that central lift is a bit of an question. I think it should be removed to allow marines easier access to silo and viaduct, and vice versa. Maybe a weldable manhole? Also, generator lift is both PITA and necessary to slow down gen relocate + rush to viaduct, but still the lift is a pain for slower lifeforms (not for marines, though, since they just jam the lift and crouch past the opening).
3) Contrary to previous opinion, I think red room is very necessary as a "second chance" siege spot. But again; those corridors around it are dull. Add something nifty there.
...Hope someone actually read this.
Also, drop some crates or some rubble and stuff in some of the long hallways to give smaller lifeforms some cover. Some examples would be the hallway from topographical to eastern junction, the hallway from junction to the dome, the hallway from western skylights to overlook, and northloop.
I'm not going to scare you away with heaps of huge changes, in fact, I only have two that shouldn't take too long... well, maybe.
Basically, I suggest changing the path from foreboding antechamber to powersilo so the doorway is blocked (see red leet spraypaint) and a new path leads along to the left half way across. This would remove a couple of long corridoors, make the walls in foreboding on that side useful and make silo more attractive.
(edit: You could reuse the existing corridoor behind the doorway, sorta move it along and make the left side of foreboding solid walls and stuff while the right hand side still had the drop...)
see linked images (cbf resizing or gamma correcting, but they aren't too bad. They were taken with 2.0 btw, although because steam is a bit screwey atm, but I'm sure they're the same....sorry. 1024/768.)
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore1.JPG' target='_blank'>Image1</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore2.JPG' target='_blank'>Image2</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore3.JPG' target='_blank'>Image3</a>
Also, maybe you might like to add a platform level with the path coming from the miasma walkway elevator. Sorry the spraypaint doesn't do a very good job at explaining... But moving the resource node from ominous kismet around to where I've marked on the images below might again make powersilo more attractive as it would be closer to the resource node. May also make that lift used more often.
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/silo1.JPG' target='_blank'>Image4</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/silo2.JPG' target='_blank'>Image5</a>
Would be awesome if you could make those lifts func_doors rather then func_trains too, so they don't stop when you press the button :D~
Well, that's my two cents. Eclipse and veil seem alright to me, although the path behind double could use something, I would say a node but then you'd have sieging problems... the long corridoor outside cargo hive could use some boxes too :D~
Congrats on the job btw, was wondering when a developer would snap you up, was kinda hoping for something like hl2 rather then quake tho, not my favourite game :(
Bahamut.
(btw, :D~ is a DROOLING SMILEY. It's not a goatee >:( )
It requires a 1 marine boost-up to get in. So long as aliens can build chambers beneath the fans in this vent, i think its fair to allow marines to get in it.
Eclipse:
Maintenance - a very lacking starting hive. You only have Horseshoe and South Loop somewhat close by, and Horseshoe is always the lose, because you will always have a couple of marines going down there no matter what. Make the corridors in Keyhole a little bit shorter, so that maintenenance isnt so "remote" ?
Apart from that, the map's fine, though in my opinion a little bit "short" distance-wise; it is a little bit easy to get to any single hive from Marine Start in little time. I am not sure whether it is TOO easy.
Veil: This map is too easy for marines. The majority of res nodes are ridiculously easy to control as a marine, and the aliens really lack on this area. Say you start in pipeline; the only ones you can truly get (and hold) are pipe, cargo, c12, and double. Would the commander have any competent marines, he would laugh as he sieges double res, leaving (and KEEPING) the aliens to 3 res nodes. I would suggest making the corridors in the bottom half of the map (so anything between west skylights and overlook, and topo and c12, a lot shorter. It would make it easier for aliens to defend those res nodes, and make it harder for marines to take them out.
Nothing: Certainly an interesting map, but the outcomes depend too much on the starting hives. If it is cargo, and if you have a decent team, you can have Generator, Vent chamber, cargo res node itself, AND the three res nodes around viaduct area. Add to that a little wall of lame in Foreboding, or in Powersilo, and the marines are buggered. If it is Powersilo, it results in aliens not getting the mapcontrol needed for a decent fight. The only one even relatively close by is foreboding. Would marines break into Viaduct early on, you are STUCK with 2 res towers, unless you have a lil bit of lame in Kismet, giving you 3. and meh, why not siege that from generator anyway? Viaduct is just a little bit of both worlds. You have 3 potential res towers, hopefully 4 if you can hold generator. 6 IF you can get foreboding lamed up, adding the one from powersilo. The problem here lies with a likely 2-hive lockdown. If marines rush phase tech and the unbuilt hives, the marines will have 5-6 res towers, depending on whether or not they can force themselves into gen. if they do get into gen, they can also deny the aliens 2 more res nodes by sieging. Its all just a little bit too ... "whats their hive? Oh, we win/lose" I believe the bias should be less in the cargo/generator area, and a little more towards powersilo. Maybe you could delete the corridors between foreboding and powersilo, and make a new, more direct corridor. possibly with a door in there. Move the miasma res node a little bit more to the right, and make Viaduct area also more accessible for the aliens from Powersilo.
Agreed, save that poor res from being seiged from gen room.
Not really; think of the gorge, think children <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I totally agree. Those two changes could easily make a huge difference without radically altering the map.
The map used to be covered in scaryambience.mp3, with atmospheric.mp3 only playing in Miasma Walkway.
Now, atmospheric.mp3 plays all over the map, and plays at a louder volume when you're in Miasma Walkway.
I think it sounded better with the two different files.
Veil, it works well. But skulk ambushing positions are VERY open. You can't really hide above a door way because there is nothing to hide you. It's just wide open space. Add some infestation or a pipe or something for hiding.
Eclipse is perfect. Save for SAA, if a marine goes down there, he gets stuck. Add a small ladder entity or something for them to get out. I think the RT in MS is too succeptable to AR fire and what not, and same for the Maintance RT.
With regard to station access alpha, I'm going to assume you mean the vent?
And the idea of moving the triad resource node closer to the vent on the marine start side would make more use of the alternate pathway behind it I think... maybe.
I'm not going to scare you away with heaps of huge changes, in fact, I only have two that shouldn't take too long... well, maybe.
Basically, I suggest changing the path from foreboding antechamber to powersilo so the doorway is blocked (see red leet spraypaint) and a new path leads along to the left half way across. This would remove a couple of long corridoors, make the walls in foreboding on that side useful and make silo more attractive.
(edit: You could reuse the existing corridoor behind the doorway, sorta move it along and make the left side of foreboding solid walls and stuff while the right hand side still had the drop...)
see linked images (cbf resizing or gamma correcting, but they aren't too bad. They were taken with 2.0 btw, although because steam is a bit screwey atm, but I'm sure they're the same....sorry. 1024/768.)
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore1.JPG' target='_blank'>Image1</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore2.JPG' target='_blank'>Image2</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/fore3.JPG' target='_blank'>Image3</a>
Also, maybe you might like to add a platform level with the path coming from the miasma walkway elevator. Sorry the spraypaint doesn't do a very good job at explaining... But moving the resource node from ominous kismet around to where I've marked on the images below might again make powersilo more attractive as it would be closer to the resource node. May also make that lift used more often.
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/silo1.JPG' target='_blank'>Image4</a>
<a href='http://www.bahamutns.com/nothing/silo2.JPG' target='_blank'>Image5</a>
Would be awesome if you could make those lifts func_doors rather then func_trains too, so they don't stop when you press the button
Well, that's my two cents. Eclipse and veil seem alright to me, although the path behind double could use something, I would say a node but then you'd have sieging problems... the long corridoor outside cargo hive could use some boxes too
Congrats on the job btw, was wondering when a developer would snap you up, was kinda hoping for something like hl2 rather then quake tho, not my favourite game
Bahamut.
(btw, <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->~ is a DROOLING SMILEY. It's not a goatee >:( ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
winner
Could probably use something around that other corridoor leading out of powersilo too, perhaps a copy/paste job of the architecture in intimidation? (one of those screenshots where I suggested the platform has a sample of the architecture)