Eclipse, Veil, And Nothing
KungFuSquirrel
Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Basher of Muttons Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">last chance for 3.0 updates</div> Hey guys,
I've been snooping around for feedback on the updated Eclipse, Veil, and Nothing builds. Eclipse is mostly just cosmetic, but Veil has a few notable changes and Nothing has been rather extensively optimized.
What I need to know is how much work needs to be done on each, so if you have feedback, now's the chance to toss it my way. I'll be making one more update to each map (mainly trying to optimize file size), then a second update to any of them if I do anything wrong in the first one, and then that will likely be the last I touch any of them before handing them off to the next person in line (for those of you not yet aware, I'll be joining Ken at Raven on the Quake IV team in early July or so and will have to give up my NS work).
Help me make these maps as solid as they can possibly be before I leave. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've been snooping around for feedback on the updated Eclipse, Veil, and Nothing builds. Eclipse is mostly just cosmetic, but Veil has a few notable changes and Nothing has been rather extensively optimized.
What I need to know is how much work needs to be done on each, so if you have feedback, now's the chance to toss it my way. I'll be making one more update to each map (mainly trying to optimize file size), then a second update to any of them if I do anything wrong in the first one, and then that will likely be the last I touch any of them before handing them off to the next person in line (for those of you not yet aware, I'll be joining Ken at Raven on the Quake IV team in early July or so and will have to give up my NS work).
Help me make these maps as solid as they can possibly be before I leave. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I'll see if I can give them a little boost without losing any of what he was going for.
Also Generator seems empty now that the pit of doom is gone....maybe you can put somethig in there? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-about ns_nothing elevators, make em go up quick, but down slow. You can also have things that people can jump to as a 'middle step' so they dont take damage (see the center column in the elevator to power silo). I actually find it sorta sad that the original elevator concept didnt work out...from what I can make out, it seems quite atmospheric.
-compared to before, nothing has been pretty much fixed. Thanks for demolishing the cargo->redroom->silo strat.
-powersilo vents would help. just one vent from the top part (the 'cliff' things) to anywhere outside the hive room would work.
Looks:
-of all hives of all NS levels, the veil's hives have got to be the most squeaky clean. If the hive wasnt there, I wouldnt have known that Pipeline or Cargo was infested. Seeing that both hives have limited vision to the outside hallways, I believe you can go crazy on the infestations without killing the r_speeds. But thats based on my none-existant knowledge of mapping <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Ill mention it again, but it doesnt look like youll change it or anyone cares. In the 1.0 version of eclipse, the hallway leading to horseshoe and another one (forgot its name) had this style on the wall that I quite liked. I dont know why it was replaced by the dull rock and fence thing you have there now :/ Im hoping you can bring em back and possibly expand upon it.
-comp core, water...now!
-nothing, gen room, as someone has mentioned, put something there to break up the now plain looking room. Perhaps move the res node to middle.
Also, the elevators should keep moving completely up or down once they are triggered, so they can not be stopped in the middle to trap some marine/onos in them.
- Map is centered around cargo - aliens have no chance in silo node wise.
- Red room is a waste of space that just makes the map harder to traverse while providing little use. It makes the map "too big" and is just a bad layout design.
- The map in general is just poorly designed, look at an overview. Its nothing but hallways - I hate that style of map personally. Maps like tanith, eclipse and origin that have actual rooms provide much better gameplay from my experience.
- In addition to the map being long hallways, there is too much going on. Too many objects protruding, or cracks - Mineshaft suffers from the same problem and maybe even caged. Basically things that make movement for both teams more difficult. Again maps like Veil, Eclipse and Tanith keep things simple and the gameplay is better because of it.
Ummm..... Sieging Viaduct anyone?
Nothing and Eclipse are my favourite maps, and viel is up there too.
Anyways, to the suggestions
Nothing
-Elevators are people have mentioned
-Maybe a vent from cargo into Generator? Seeing as Gen is one of the most important areas of the map.
Eclipse
-Cant really think of anything. It's pretty balanced. Maybe add some more weldables. Those are always fun and strategic.
Viel
-Everything is REALLY spread out in this map. It's not really a bad thing, nor is it a good thing. Also there's really no way of fixing it. Just an observation I suppose. I'd suggest throwing a res node somewhere, but that'd probably throw off the balance.
-Marines start, the ledge. The only time I've seen this used is when the marines are hopeless and they just plant like 20 turrets up there prolonging the game another 10-30 minutes. I understand that its there for strategy (to actually put turrets up there in the begining), but it's more abused than it is used
Other than those, they're pretty solid maps, and certainly some of the best.
Eclipse is also very fun, especially the part around sub-junction. The only thing I can thing of is more vents..
Veil - well, love this map since it's so damn fine, but i actually think that aliens, especially skulks are having a very hard time in all the long corridors without any crates or anything, too few vents that you can make ambushes from and overall too few good ambush locations.. There are very few important doors that you can hold as a skulk, i feel that raping as a marine on veil is very very easy, maybe make it a bit darker, shorten the corridors and make some good ambush spots.
Ive played entire scrims on this map without dying once, I just find it to be wrong.
Now dont get me wrong, I really like veil, I just think that aliens are having a hard time because of all the big areas without any places to take cover what so ever.
Congratulations to the job btw <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The generator room is a key strategic location, but I feel it is a little too marine friendly. I think that a vent should be added that leads from ominous kismet to generator. This would give aliens coming from powersilo a faster, more direct route to gen room(current routes, run up the elevator and through miasma, likely getting shot by marines going to gen or getting shocked by the RT if it's electrified, or going up the elevator on the viaduct side)
<u>ns_eclipse</u> I feel is one of the most balanced maps. I have no issues unless the weld points at the vents can still be broken.
<u>ns_veil</u>...I feel this map favors the marines too much. Easily siegable double node, and the long, wide open, brightly lit hallways that 70% of the map is composed of make marine gameplay like shooting skulks in a barrel. Hopefully these significant changes you mentioned will fix these issues.
A few minor issues: The new Northloop area's info_location appears ingame as "veil_northloop"
The Western set of stairs that are in The Dome (the set that leads to Cargo) require ducking to get down them as an Onos. The same thing happens as you travel up them.
<b>ns_eclipse</b>
I know you have expressed unhappiness with the Maintenance hive and your desire to revert it to a pre-1.0 version. I'm neutral about the hive as is, and basically I just wanted to flag this up as it'll be the last chance for this to see the light of day.
There is something very odd about the infestation on the western side of the Computer Core hive. <a href='http://dl.branzone.com/ns_eclipse0007.gif' target='_blank'>Link to an image of the area in question.</a> If you switch on dev_overview, <a href='http://dl.branzone.com/ns_eclipse0002.gif' target='_blank'> or look at it from the right angle in the Commander view</a>, it appears as if there is no floor there at all, and if you build marine buildings on it they <a href='http://dl.branzone.com/ns_eclipse0008.gif' target='_blank'>sink into the infestation</a>, making them hard, and in some cases impossible, to attack.
<b>ns_nothing</b>
The entire map has some balance issues, in terms of Res Node locations, and attackability (if that wasn't a word before, it is now). The starting hive has a direct impact on your chances of winning, though its certainly not as bad as it was in 1.0x. I think it still would require significant redesign to even it up, and I'm not sure that is realistic before 3.0 goes final and/or before you have to hand the map over to someone else.
<ol type='1'><li>Fix Elevators</li><li>Power Silo is a miserable hive to start with</li><li>Cargo hive being a double node isn't cool</li><li>Needs more rooms over hallways</li><li>Consider making the map smaller</li></ol>
ns_veil
<ol type='1'><li>Map could be made a bit more alien friendly</li><li>Bigger doorways</li><li>More nooks for skulks to hide and ambush from</li></ol>
ns_eclipse
<ol type='1'><li>Map is really marine friendly</li><li>Fix Maintenance?</li><li>Consider making Traid node a bit to the side so you can't snipe it from the hallways as marine</li><li>Comp core is one tough hive to seige, consider moving the hive up a bit... or not, tough call on this one</li></ol>
I think a vent is needed from computer core to south loop in eclipse, and the issue with buildings sinking into the infestation in computer core hive has already been brought up.
Omnious Kismet res nod really needs to be moved a bit closer to power silo, maybe even the otherside of the entrance (by the small vent) so it is out of siege range from gen. The elevators are too slow going up, and a vent should be added going to powersilo hive, the long narrow corridors are a death trap <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Altho if the vent went directly into the roof it would make getitng up there and bile bombing a bit too easy, if the vent came out of the wall just underneat the overhanging roof, then it would atleast give turret and marines a chance to shoot the skulk before it gets to saftey <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Examples:
Power silo
-vent from foreboding to silo access south
-vent from west hall of silo access north to power silo hive (but with an inclination that cannot be climbed - IE, skulk, lerk and jetpack is needed to access hive from this point)
Viaduct
-vent from back of hive to red room
-vent from the red room vents to both viaduct access east and west
-vent from viaduct to cargo hive gets added vent that goes to generator
-vent from intimidation (or kismet) to generator room
Cargo
-vent from communications hub to generator (catwalk area)
-vent from the junction to miasma walkway
-vent from communications hub to ventilation chamber and room with things
The more vents the better. That seems to be the only thing holding this map back is the lack of vents to keep the game swinging back and forth.
On Eclipse I'd just like to see a few more vents. Namely from north core access to south loop, from triad access to station access and from computer core vent to connect with the vent over by maintenance hive. I'd also like to see the triad node moved more torawds the vent and then make the area where the railing is (without the ladder) so that there is a unbreakable glass barrier that comes up to cover half of the height of the opening. So that you could not jump down or shoot from that point, you would have to shoot or go down by the ladder access. (which would remain the same) The glass barrier would not go floor to ceiling, so that skulks could get over top.
Veil is another map that could use more vents. (you can never have too many vents!) A vent from the double node to the area BEHIND the double node would be a must. If they get in there it's easy to pick off any aliens from a distance. Also, connect the two vents in the double node so you can use one or the other without needing to exit. I'd also like to see the vent from cargo to sub sector. (I think that is what it is called) While there is a vent on the pipeline side, if aliens start on the other side they are forced to rush headlong into the hive (because of the lack of vents) and this makes them easy pickins.
Anyway, great maps, just need more vents! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
There is a vent from cargo to sub sector, a vent from cargo to pipeline, vents sprinkeled through the map.
One thing though, and that is you know the vent at the node near pipeline... I can't recall the name right now... but it's a vent right above that node... it should lead from that node to the area behind it...
CRAP I'll post pics later when I get back home to show you what I'm talking about
There is a vent from cargo to sub sector, a vent from cargo to pipeline, vents sprinkeled through the map.
One thing though, and that is you know the vent at the node near pipeline... I can't recall the name right now... but it's a vent right above that node... it should lead from that node to the area behind it...
CRAP I'll post pics later when I get back home to show you what I'm talking about <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
c12?
I prefer the old keyhole layout, with the siege location and hive entrance from southloop. Its too easy to cover both entrances to maint by standing at the fork.
<b>ns_veil</b>
I like the addition of Northloop, but im not keen on the new doorway that was added to the area just west of nanogrid. I think it makes the area too open.
<b>ns_nothing</b>
It needs to be easier to assault generator room from the lower level. Suggest shorter elevator shafts (i.e lower the entire upper level a bit) or faster moving elevators. If you want to try something drastic, consider replacing the generator room elevator with a set of stairs/ramps ( think eclipse's SAA balcony but on a larger scale).
There is a vent from cargo to sub sector, a vent from cargo to pipeline, vents sprinkeled through the map.
One thing though, and that is you know the vent at the node near pipeline... I can't recall the name right now... but it's a vent right above that node... it should lead from that node to the area behind it...
CRAP I'll post pics later when I get back home to show you what I'm talking about <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
c12? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
YUS
The vent at c12 should be three pronged, also there should be a vent from inside of that hallway on the right side of cargo which leads somewhere around the double node area.
I dont think nancy is a good example of how to impliment vents. Some sections work well, but overall its excessive. The scale and complexity of them just confuses the hell out people. Im hoping the remake team can prune them back a bit more.
Veil is very marine friendly with all the long hallways with little cover.
Eclipse I can't really complain about <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Ummm..... Sieging Viaduct anyone?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, I had never thought of that. So a giant piece of the map is dedicated to a solitary - highly expected tactic, that isn't even useful 75% of the time. Neat.
Move the res node that's really close to Cargo hive near Powersilo, and add vents to Powersilo, make sure that those vents can also lead out to those two cramped, narrow pathways that marines love to camp with, while building sieges.
That would make it one of the most balanced maps, in my opinion.
ns_veil:
Northloop is entirely ****. It's too easy to siege double, and not very hard to defend.
ns_eclipse: Maintenance hive is a bad place to start. There's 2 adjacent res nodes and one's pretty close to marine start. :|