Video Gaming Revolution?
coil
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">They're finally getting *HARD* again!</div> Gabe and Tycho (of Penny Arcade) weren't kidding about Ninja Gaiden. This game is HARD.
An exchange from Gamespy:
1> "Of course, Ninja Gaiden was so hard to play that I was actually killed while opening the box."
2> "That's nothing. I know a guy who knows this guy who died three times on his way to the <i>store</i>."
They're not kidding. I haven't played games this hard in a looong, loooooong time - I'm talking games like Gradius, which ramped up difficulty by simply putting more and more enemies and bullets on the screen for you to dodge. Battletoads has been called the most difficult game of all time, but that's also way back in the day.
Recently, the closest I'd come in a long while to a *hard* game were a few Dreamcast top-down space shooters - Mars Matrix and Ikaruga, specifically. Ikaruga rewards every 5 hours of play time with an additional continue (you start with three) - on Easy, I had to get 7 continues before I could even make it to the end of the game. Mars Matrix at some points puts so many bullets on the screen that you just have to *laugh* as you respawn. But even these games don't really capture the difficulty of the old school games - you can feed enough lives and continues into the game and eventually you will beat it. It's the classic arcade game of quarter-attrition (one day a friend of mine and I went to the arcade with $20 in quarters and played through the old side-scrolling TMNT game), and in the end you don't really feel that you *mastered* the game -- it's more like you and the game had a staring contest, but you could pay a quarter to blink and it couldn't.
Recently, though, I've had the delightful feeling of playing genuinely *hard* games. They're games that very simply take *skill* to play. You don't have unlimited continues; you can't abuse a 1-up to get infinite lives. You just have to be damn good, and in today's games "damn good" can be a truly amazing gaming experience.
<a href='http://www.gamespy.com/e32003/screens/gamecube/viewtifuljoe/ZOOM02.jpg' target='_blank'>Viewtiful Joe</a> for the Gamecube: as an average Joe (pun intended; that's the main character's name) pulled into his favorite movie, you have the power to apply "movie special effects" to the gameplay - you can go into slow-motion for a combo, speed things up till you literally catch fire, zoom in for an extreme closeup, and more. combine this with a fairly diverse combo system of punches, kicks, and a few projectile attacks, and you've got a formidable arsenal to unleash on an equally improbably and extensive cast of foes. But the difficult just keeps ramping up, and you have to keep adapting and developing your tactics as new, stronger enemies appear. Progress: currently up against a wall fighting enemies I can't "stagger" in slo-mo. Still haven't beaten it.
<a href='http://www.gamespy.com/e32003/screens/gamecube/mgstts/MGS-TS_002.jpg' target='_blank'>Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes</a> for the Gamecube: I'm sure I don't need to give y'all the background on this one. The enemy have good eyes and great hearing, and you have to deal with turrets, security cameras, and more in addition to the human guards. I'm told the AI on "Normal" beats the pants off the original Metal Gear Solid's AI on the hardest difficulty level. Progress: just offed the 3rd boss, a mind-reader who could make the screen actually black out and "read my mind," dodging every bullet I shot at him. Not getting any easier.
And, of course, <a href='http://games.gamespy.com/artwork/20040227_203307_ninja01.jpg' target='_blank'>Ninja Gaiden</a> for the Xbox. The first boss wiped the floor with me on my first play; I barely took off a quarter of his life bar while I myself went through the equivalent of 5 of my own life bars (i.e. full health, four 50%potions, one 100% potion, and an instant-continue). There's no "trick" to beating enemies in Ninja Gaiden, no fool-proof method. You've got combo attacks, acrobatic skills, Ninja chi arts, and essence attacks, and you just have to be damn good at using them. Progress: own3d the first boss on my second playthrough, proceeded to get my **** handed to me by three (or more? dunno, I couldn't kill them!) samurai on <i>horseback</i> with spears and bows.
If you missed what Tycho and Gabe had to say about Ninja Gaiden, it was this:
<!--QuoteBegin-"Tycho"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Tycho")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sh** <i>damn </i>Ninja Gaiden is hard, it's so hard that your <i>friends </i>will die. It's also completely great - once you've gone a few levels, just start a new game real quick and take a look at the guys you thought were bad-**** <i>before</i>. Those guys are <i>feather pillows </i>compared to the beasts and murderers you rub up against later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exhibit A, Gabe's Contribution:
<img src='http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040308l.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Anyone else here revelling in the return to skill?
An exchange from Gamespy:
1> "Of course, Ninja Gaiden was so hard to play that I was actually killed while opening the box."
2> "That's nothing. I know a guy who knows this guy who died three times on his way to the <i>store</i>."
They're not kidding. I haven't played games this hard in a looong, loooooong time - I'm talking games like Gradius, which ramped up difficulty by simply putting more and more enemies and bullets on the screen for you to dodge. Battletoads has been called the most difficult game of all time, but that's also way back in the day.
Recently, the closest I'd come in a long while to a *hard* game were a few Dreamcast top-down space shooters - Mars Matrix and Ikaruga, specifically. Ikaruga rewards every 5 hours of play time with an additional continue (you start with three) - on Easy, I had to get 7 continues before I could even make it to the end of the game. Mars Matrix at some points puts so many bullets on the screen that you just have to *laugh* as you respawn. But even these games don't really capture the difficulty of the old school games - you can feed enough lives and continues into the game and eventually you will beat it. It's the classic arcade game of quarter-attrition (one day a friend of mine and I went to the arcade with $20 in quarters and played through the old side-scrolling TMNT game), and in the end you don't really feel that you *mastered* the game -- it's more like you and the game had a staring contest, but you could pay a quarter to blink and it couldn't.
Recently, though, I've had the delightful feeling of playing genuinely *hard* games. They're games that very simply take *skill* to play. You don't have unlimited continues; you can't abuse a 1-up to get infinite lives. You just have to be damn good, and in today's games "damn good" can be a truly amazing gaming experience.
<a href='http://www.gamespy.com/e32003/screens/gamecube/viewtifuljoe/ZOOM02.jpg' target='_blank'>Viewtiful Joe</a> for the Gamecube: as an average Joe (pun intended; that's the main character's name) pulled into his favorite movie, you have the power to apply "movie special effects" to the gameplay - you can go into slow-motion for a combo, speed things up till you literally catch fire, zoom in for an extreme closeup, and more. combine this with a fairly diverse combo system of punches, kicks, and a few projectile attacks, and you've got a formidable arsenal to unleash on an equally improbably and extensive cast of foes. But the difficult just keeps ramping up, and you have to keep adapting and developing your tactics as new, stronger enemies appear. Progress: currently up against a wall fighting enemies I can't "stagger" in slo-mo. Still haven't beaten it.
<a href='http://www.gamespy.com/e32003/screens/gamecube/mgstts/MGS-TS_002.jpg' target='_blank'>Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes</a> for the Gamecube: I'm sure I don't need to give y'all the background on this one. The enemy have good eyes and great hearing, and you have to deal with turrets, security cameras, and more in addition to the human guards. I'm told the AI on "Normal" beats the pants off the original Metal Gear Solid's AI on the hardest difficulty level. Progress: just offed the 3rd boss, a mind-reader who could make the screen actually black out and "read my mind," dodging every bullet I shot at him. Not getting any easier.
And, of course, <a href='http://games.gamespy.com/artwork/20040227_203307_ninja01.jpg' target='_blank'>Ninja Gaiden</a> for the Xbox. The first boss wiped the floor with me on my first play; I barely took off a quarter of his life bar while I myself went through the equivalent of 5 of my own life bars (i.e. full health, four 50%potions, one 100% potion, and an instant-continue). There's no "trick" to beating enemies in Ninja Gaiden, no fool-proof method. You've got combo attacks, acrobatic skills, Ninja chi arts, and essence attacks, and you just have to be damn good at using them. Progress: own3d the first boss on my second playthrough, proceeded to get my **** handed to me by three (or more? dunno, I couldn't kill them!) samurai on <i>horseback</i> with spears and bows.
If you missed what Tycho and Gabe had to say about Ninja Gaiden, it was this:
<!--QuoteBegin-"Tycho"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Tycho")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sh** <i>damn </i>Ninja Gaiden is hard, it's so hard that your <i>friends </i>will die. It's also completely great - once you've gone a few levels, just start a new game real quick and take a look at the guys you thought were bad-**** <i>before</i>. Those guys are <i>feather pillows </i>compared to the beasts and murderers you rub up against later. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exhibit A, Gabe's Contribution:
<img src='http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040308l.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Anyone else here revelling in the return to skill?
Comments
--Scythe--
Damn right, and about time it is too. Look at Starfox vs Lylat Wars when that came out.
Starfox on Hard - Your eyes bled trying to work out where the enemy bullets ended and the enemies started, there were that many on screen.
Lylat Wars - "Aw, look, the boss can shoot and everything. How twee!"
coil, I love you, as usual. Let us have ickle gaming babies. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*Looks forward to NG now!* (Lousy bloody release schedules!)
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh... Then how'd you play PoP if no keyboard? I once tried with a joystick with my Amiga, but i think keyboard was the way to go. Or are you talking about the new PC version? The old one was challenging, but it didn't take long for me and my amiga box to beat it.
Most people would discount metroid zero as being easy, but that's only because you've gotten one ending. I am the proud owner of five of the eight endings, and the last four are VERY difficult to get. they are:
Beat normal in 2:00 or less with 100% <--- only one done. Wasn't THAT difficult, but needs a very good knowledge of sequence breaks.
Beat hard in 2:00 or less with 100% <--- difficult, because a speed run means half the time you ignore enemies, or let them hit you, which is like suiside on hard.
Beat normal with 15% of items or less <--- Absurdly difficult. you can only grab a maximum of 15 items total. Power ups count. That means the absolute minimum you can get is 9%. This gives this ending a total of 6 additional items, and that's it.
Beat hard with 15% of items or less <--- Insane. Absolutly insane. Beating the bosses isn't the hard part, accidently tripping over a holtz and dying in one hit is.
So while technically "beating" metroid zero the first time isn't hard, getting all eight endings is. Discovering seqence breaks and getting everything out of order is quite fun, as well (AKA, on my 15% normal attempt, I got the varia suit with the morph ball, bombs, and power grip, nothing else. Those who have played zero will understand why this is difficult.)
Ikaruga was like a nostalgia trip... back in the day you had to dodge bullets and weren't pretty much guaranteed to pass each level without using a continue.
I still remember my gunstar hero/super probotector days ^^
That's part of the reason why multiplayer games are so much fun. If you play the right opponents, it's always difficult.
Thats one reason why HL kicked.
This game is a bench mark for the way they should make fighting games but MY GOD IS IT HARD AT TIMES!
you use the right stick on the PS2 controller to fight with. This allows you to attack in 360 degrees of motion.
Aside from the really cool Motion capture they did for the moves and the new way to fight this game is a POS. It doesnt allow you to change up the controls at all, you have no jump or use for Square, O, X, triangle, your it has prompts through out the whole game (jump, hide, counter) it basicly tells you to do everything and limits everything you can do. And dear god is it repetitive!
The fighting styles and Motion capture makes the fighting awesome, but hard! Besides that its really a bad game! They could have done soooooo much better on it! Its a real shame!
And thanks, youve now convinced me 100% never to buy the Xbox Ninja Gaiden. I just dont do hard games. Because if I start getting my **** handed to me, after ive bypassed the learning curve and know how to do everything you can do, I start to get really frustrated, and usually wind up selling the game to some guy on the street with a ratty old jacket named Guido.
I suppose there is a sense of satisfaction after you beat a ridicuously hard game, but I just dont really get it. IMO, the best games are the ones that are hard, but time can also be a substitute. Like, Super Monkey Ball. Oh its hard. Yes its hard. But play it enough, and you get more and more continues. At the same time, your sharpening your skills. Thats the magical formula in my opinion. Let time be a substitute for skill.
I personally get fairly frustrated playing these more difficult games, but I think that's from just being so used to the incredible ease of some of the other games in recent years. It almost frightens me that I used to be able to play all the King's Quest and Space Quest games and actually <i>complete</i> them, sometimes with full point totals (and always with full point totals after a tad bit of hint book consultation <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I could get used to transitioning back to the more complicated stuff, though. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Still, at least while the tape counter ticked over as slow as... well as if it was one tick per year, I could have a cup of tea or something.
Any of you guys play NS against exigent?
rofl
I know... you mean console games. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, I'll have to try all of these they all sound so promosing.
I wanted viewtiful joe for some time now... I should really get that.
1) The arcade as a money-maker. Would you be more likely to drop a ton of quarters into a game to keep trying from the start, or to continue from where you fell? Continue, of course! The invention of the Continue and the quarter-popping mentality it spawned was one of the first ways games were made easier. You didn't get a continue in Pac Man. You got 3 lives, and every now and then you'd get another one if you were good.
2) The quick-save. This was the real killer. Where's the challenge if you can quick-save and quick-load in a heartbeat? Not a lot of danger when you've memorized where every enemy is and you can reload if one actually manages to score a hit on you. Try playing Half-Life without using the quicksave, and instead only using the auto-saves. It's a different (and in my opinion far more enjoyable) game altogether. One of the things that makes the three games I mentioned hard is that you can't just save wherever; you have to beat a level. In Viewtiful Joe, sometimes you have to beat *several* levels. And when you do reach a save point, you have to ask yourself: "Did I do well enough? Should I go on, or should I go back and try to get by with a bit more health?"
For the record, I don't consider Ninja Gaiden frustrating-hard. It's challenging. It forces you to learn how to use your weapons, and *well*.
I second that. Games with autosaves are *infinately* more fun than games that force you to be a quick-load monkey.
Agreed. The save-function was one of the things (besides revolutionary stealth-action, beautiful graphics, and amazing gameplay) that made Splinter Cell such a blast.
^^
the new MGS will be nice, with the whole stealth thing, getting %100 complete will be cool, and hopefully GTA:SA will have increased mission difficulty
that makes me both sad and happy. :> because I'm with weggy -- I don't have much patience once a game gets too hard...
take FFIX for instance. definitely the hardest FF in a good while. I actually died a few times, even my second time through. and that frustrated me enough to stop playing...
and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Battletoads was uber hard =P though also uber fun with a game genie and infinite lives! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I second that. Games with autosaves are *infinately* more fun than games that force you to be a quick-load monkey. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, just finished Castlevania: SOTN on an emulator.
<i>Hello. My name is Confuzor. I am a save-stateaholic.</i>
This kind of behavour has its drawbacks though. Back when I was still playing Starcraft single player, I was absolutely obsessive in ensuring that an individual marine took 0 damage (until medics started showing up in BW), if my Protoss health was anything BUT green, or if one zergling died.
Even with adventure games or RPGs, I don't like accidentally picking conversation lines that are repeated or make my character look like an idiot. I go back and load it AGAIN. It's not like it does anything detrimental to the outcome of the game, but I just.... can't stand it!
I don't belong in the gaming world.
He can fill the screen with a million triadic sets of wicked daggers, of which you have to occupy a mere 2 pixels to survive. There's no life-bar, 3 lives and then it's all over. He absorbs about 500,000 bullets and prances over stereotypical totems much to my chagrin.
Maybe it's his wicked wolf-sneer, or his broken English taunts of "Me big pow-wow!", but he really made me cry.
Know how I beat him? Using save and load on the Zsnes every time I landed a single hit on him or dodged an attack.
Hell is having to beat him without using cheats or quick-saves.
If any game has ever made me violent enough to want to kill someone, it would that game.
Oh yes you should. It brings a new meaning to the word 'Expert', it brings grown men to tears and people say it's a kids game! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> So worth it though and Viewtiful joe 2 coming soon! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
SPOILER WARNING (sort of, maybe...)
A trick to defeat Psycho Mantis on the original PS and probably on the GC. I REPEAT! DO NOT READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW!
Okay, in the original PS version, the easy way to beat Psycho Mantis (I did it the hard way the first time, if you are capable of doing this then you are a good game player) was to just plug another controller into the second port and play with that. It sounds simple and you wouldn't think it doesn't work but it does. PM would enver be able to "read your mind" and you would easily kick his butt even on the harder levels of difficulty. Not sure this would work with the GC, but it's worth a try if you are having troubles beating him.
As for revitalization of difficulty in video games, it's both a good and bad things. If you own a GBA, then try out Advanced Wars 2 for a difficult strategy game. Despite it's kinda cutesie graphics, it's a hard TBS game. I gave up on it though as that if you don't do things a certain way, you will lose guranteed. Especially in some of the "Boss battles" which I feel are totally cheap...
But I like the increased game difficulty levels. MGS2, after I got how things work in it, it was extremely easy to beat. Even on medium difficulty. There wasn't really any hard thing about it save for the final boss, but that jsut required timing and getting the patterns down.. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo--> Beating games like that is anti-climatic. Because you expect the last boss to be uber and not taken down easily, like in the RE series... The games themselves were hard, but the final bosses were usually push overs. Especially in RE3. Nemesis was a terrifying foe in the begining, but when you fight him as the final boss, it wasn't that hard. You could have downed him with a handgun.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Nice one, Zig.
I know exactly what you mean, ace music though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->