<!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Mar 1 2004, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 1 2004, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Mar 2 2004, 12:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Mar 2 2004, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'll presume we're talking 1-hive early game situation (no dc-no regen on fade) In that case, "all guns on fade" and he won't escape more then twice, as his health will simply run out. If it's two hives, sc/dc, it's a bit more tricky. First of all, if you see this happening, get armor 2 before weap 1. It works. Or, if you need immediate counter and it's clan play (organizing team play not an issue): 1. Welders. Render the spores completely and utterly useless unless used right before the fade hits. In which case you really should have armor 2 before weapon 1. 2. Insufficient teamwork to hand welders to the team for armor repair - Order marines to SHOOT DOWN THE SC when fade runs away for quick regen. SC has only 800 hp and gets torn down in a matter of seconds under an lmg volley from 2-3 marines. And after that, focus fade is no longer cloakable, which as I understand, is your main gripe. In general, use the ping to locate SCs and have your marines terminate them with extreme prejudice. If you ignore the termination of SCs after ping, you deserve the increased death toll. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Put the SCs in vents and in difficult places to reach. Good luck killing a sensory chamber in the vent behind HS on eclipse or inside the PSJ vent.
Also, welders are a good solution, but that just adds cost and renders you even more susceptable to caught with your pants down by a cloaking skulk.
Focus fade needs to be played much differently then cara, and even regen, fade. You have to hit and run. Your goal isn't to kill everyone in one fell swoop. It's to pick the marines off one by one so they can't push on while they wait to be reinforced or so they can get owned by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can't kill the sensory chamber, build an obs. There is a reason the obs overrides everything.
And focus fades own, but at the same time they are very weak. They are best at hive defense, but it's too much of a risk to use them elsewhere.
One focus fade can hold off like 3-4 marines if it can quickly retreat to it's hive for a quick heal.
1 hive no DC? Yes. However 2 hive or 3 hive focus fades with DC are the most effective anti-personnel tool in the game, period. And fades are not base assault units as they are, that's onos' job.
<!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of going gorg and building 4 OCs you can go gorg and drop 2 SCs and 2 OCs. Setting up a sensory network is really cost effective when you consider the amount of map control if gives you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs?
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Mar 3 2004, 08:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Mar 3 2004, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of going gorg and building 4 OCs you can go gorg and drop 2 SCs and 2 OCs. Setting up a sensory network is really cost effective when you consider the amount of map control if gives you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Often when you already have 2 fades and the marines are teching to jetpacks or you want to keep them contained. Fades simply don't kill jetpacks as well as OCs do.
<!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Mar 3 2004, 05:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 3 2004, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+Mar 3 2004, 08:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ Mar 3 2004, 08:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-civman2+Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (civman2 @ Mar 1 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Instead of going gorg and building 4 OCs you can go gorg and drop 2 SCs and 2 OCs. Setting up a sensory network is really cost effective when you consider the amount of map control if gives you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Often when you already have 2 fades and the marines are teching to jetpacks or you want to keep them contained. Fades simply don't kill jetpacks as well as OCs do.
"Onos or OC?" "oc" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades are way better than killing Jetpackers than OC's are, esp. focus fades which you already sad you had because you are sensory.
Come again? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm talking about competetive play here, not pubs where cloaked aliens start biting before they're halfway to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We must play on different servers. While there are always a few exceptions, most pub players I've seen understand how cloaking works. It's one of the less-oblique NS concepts; you attack, you de-cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not really, most pubbers know how cloak works, but are not good at placement of the chambers. Where the sensory cloaks and where it's place is as important then the skulk using it to attack...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->25 res is a very large investment for a structure that has to be build on the battle lines (near a sensory chamber, so cloaked aliens can munch you while you build)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Build one in the MS. Ping. 2. Build one next to an elec RT. 3. Build one next to an elec TF.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Build one in MS, ping. Sensory is in a vent where marines can kill it... Must continue pinging until RT is built AND electrified... 2. Electrifying every RT is a precious waste of resources that could be used for upgrades, other advancement... 3. Dropping TF's all over the map is another waste of resources....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But wait, why not just let the aliens cloak and go a different way? Now you're letting the sensories give the aliens map control<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The radius for SC area-cloaking is, in map coverage terms, really tiny. Larger rooms (like all hives) require two or more SCs to cover them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about how much the sensory covers. All it really needs to cover in most cases is one entrance, then skulks have an ambush point. Alien area denial is controlling a chokepoint on the map, not the entire map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most maps have a few key choke points.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is exactly why cloak-ambushing as a defensive strategy fails. If you know you're going to be attacked at a certain location, the whole stealth factor is gone. You ping, the aliens appear, and it's a vanilla fight. Same thing applies with aliens holding key areas like hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends. If you're defensive strategy is holding marines back right outside your hive, yes, it will fail. However, holding a chokepoint, say topographical or West Skylights in Veil, near MS, it can be deadly. How is a commander going to contiue pinging both choke points? Or as long as the skulks keep a steady flow running back there when they die, there will no energy left, and aliens still coming. This argument comes from the "there's more than 2 marines there, we lost that area" mentality. If you KEPT pressure, odds are the marines would give up. Alot of times, I've seen ground given up psychologically, not because the other team was better, just one team gave up on it.
[points up] You'd think the marines would be smart enough to realize that there was a sensory chamber nearby after dying a few times at this chokepoint. And then--I dunno, maybe scan there? Fire wildly around to decloak it?
All the corners as usual, gorges rarely place them in the middle of the room because blind fire hit them easier. Sensory isnt over-powered at all. In early game its useful, but its not an offensive tool. One obs ping in the begining and the commander can spot and remember where the SC is. Assign a group of marines and destroy the gorge's 10 res chamber. Does that ever happen? Not really. Because sensory sucks.
Wow. It's like 2.0 has just been released, and I'm back in the Kharaa strategy forum. Ah, memories.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Build one in MS, ping. Sensory is in a vent where marines can kill it... Must continue pinging until RT is built AND electrified...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most maps have few full-height vents, so this tactic is confined to a few areas of the map. Of those areas, fewer still are of any special strategic importance. In the few cases where you can do this, most of your cloak radius is wasted cloaking stuff outside the map. So you end up with a small hemisphere of useful cloaking in a handful of well-known map locations.
While this is a neat trick, it's hardly a key factor in evaluating the utility of sensory chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Electrifying every RT is a precious waste of resources that could be used for upgrades, other advancement...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In at least half the public server games I play, the marines use RT electrification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dropping TF's all over the map is another waste of resources....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about dropping them at these choke points I keep hearing about?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not about how much the sensory covers. All it really needs to cover in most cases is one entrance, then skulks have an ambush point. Alien area denial is controlling a chokepoint on the map, not the entire map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, at least on public servers, alien area denial is about staying mobile, communicating marine movements, and massing to intercept and reverse marine pushes. A single static ambush point will either be avoided or, eventually, destroyed. Multiple static ambush points will divide alien forces between them, thereby reducing the defensibility of each ambush point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This argument comes from the "there's more than 2 marines there, we lost that area" mentality. If you KEPT pressure, odds are the marines would give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ?
The argument you quoted comes from the notion that "ambushes" rely on the target being unaware. If the target knows about the ambush, then the stealth factor is removed, and the engagement is no different than if one side were defending an area and the other attacking.
I usually consider ammo too precious to blind fire around the room, so I use the knife and run around the edges of the room to try to find SCs. So as Gorge I try to avoid putting them at edges, as thats the first place people look. I'll place them somewhat off-center, if I have to put them in that room at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In at least half the public server games I play, the marines use RT electrification. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is clan play he's talking about.
I comm on public servers and while it is viable to do it on there, it's worthless on clan play. A single gorge+skulk combo will take one out, and clans are highly organized and actually work together.
I really don't think the sensory chamber is really that good, once you attack, you de-cloak, and you might kill one or two, but if the marines are in a group, you're screwed, unless you focus bite and get the hell out of there.
civman, you like to complain about sensories in theory but you haven't provided any real evidence that they're overpowered. Do you have demos of some of these clan games where sensory completely dominates? Even some stories of games where marines were completely incapable of competing with one-hive sensory, as you claim?
What I'd like to know is, what do you propose we do with sensories? You want them to be equally viable as a first hive chamber, right? Do you think that will be possible if we make them any more easily counterable than they already are?
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Mar 4 2004, 11:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Mar 4 2004, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> civman, you like to complain about sensories in theory but you haven't provided any real evidence that they're overpowered. Do you have demos of some of these clan games where sensory completely dominates? Even some stories of games where marines were completely incapable of competing with one-hive sensory, as you claim?
What I'd like to know is, what do you propose we do with sensories? You want them to be equally viable as a first hive chamber, right? Do you think that will be possible if we make them any more easily counterable than they already are? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen sensories completely and utterlly DOMINATE marines in 3.0.
Civ is right. Sensories are VERY good in 3.0 because of focus.
However, I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Sensories are still extreamlly limited and have huge drawbacks. I'd say sensory chambers are finally useful, but not dominating.
Although when marines play into sensory chambers and the almighty ability known as focus's hands, yes I've seen one fade take on countless shotgunners and kill them all.
civ didn't say they were good, he said they needed to be nerfed. I don't see anything wrong with aliens dominating marines sometimes with Sensory, no more so than if they dominated with Defense or Movement. The idea is that they're supposed to be equal, though it's obvious that they aren't. If NS were perfect you could have a coin toss on the chamber selection and do equally well with any of them; I know marines like to cry when they lose to the "gimp" chamber but there's no reason why they shouldn't.
Neither movements nor Ds have hard counters that eliminate their primary benefit and the chamber's effect. Sensory most certainly does. The only thing even close to that is MT vs. Silence. civman has yet to produce any compelling evidence that sensory is overpowered; that is, that it is not only the most powerful alien chamber selection but that marines have a very hard time winning against it.
Bleh, SC is now even more useless than in v2; it now takes forever to cloak. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've concluded that sensories are really bad with res-whoring pubnubs that let marines slip by and get up turret farms in hives. But when the marines are contained by aliens that use the cloak and focus effects to their advantadge (btw i say get a lerk for a reason), it's a tough nut to crack.
*I*'ve concluded that marines dislike having to actually think to defeat aliens. Any *skilled* variance from the normal DMS order completely destorys many marines simply because they are so used to using their "marine standard squish aliens easily" tactics that they get in a big stinkin' rut. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
In that case, "all guns on fade" and he won't escape more then twice, as his health will simply run out.
If it's two hives, sc/dc, it's a bit more tricky. First of all, if you see this happening, get armor 2 before weap 1. It works.
Or, if you need immediate counter and it's clan play (organizing team play not an issue):
1. Welders. Render the spores completely and utterly useless unless used right before the fade hits. In which case you really should have armor 2 before weapon 1.
2. Insufficient teamwork to hand welders to the team for armor repair - Order marines to SHOOT DOWN THE SC when fade runs away for quick regen. SC has only 800 hp and gets torn down in a matter of seconds under an lmg volley from 2-3 marines. And after that, focus fade is no longer cloakable, which as I understand, is your main gripe.
In general, use the ping to locate SCs and have your marines terminate them with extreme prejudice. If you ignore the termination of SCs after ping, you deserve the increased death toll. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Put the SCs in vents and in difficult places to reach. Good luck killing a sensory chamber in the vent behind HS on eclipse or inside the PSJ vent.
Also, welders are a good solution, but that just adds cost and renders you even more susceptable to caught with your pants down by a cloaking skulk.
Focus fade needs to be played much differently then cara, and even regen, fade. You have to hit and run. Your goal isn't to kill everyone in one fell swoop. It's to pick the marines off one by one so they can't push on while they wait to be reinforced or so they can get owned by skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can't kill the sensory chamber, build an obs. There is a reason the obs overrides everything.
And focus fades own, but at the same time they are very weak. They are best at hive defense, but it's too much of a risk to use them elsewhere.
One focus fade can hold off like 3-4 marines if it can quickly retreat to it's hive for a quick heal.
Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs?
Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often when you already have 2 fades and the marines are teching to jetpacks or you want to keep them contained. Fades simply don't kill jetpacks as well as OCs do.
"Onos or OC?"
"oc"
Or you could go Gorge and drop a Hive...or go Fade...
I'm sorry, I don't play clan matches very often, but I have to wonder...how often in competetive play do people with 50 res decide to go drop some OCs? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Often when you already have 2 fades and the marines are teching to jetpacks or you want to keep them contained. Fades simply don't kill jetpacks as well as OCs do.
"Onos or OC?"
"oc" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades are way better than killing Jetpackers than OC's are, esp. focus fades which you already sad you had because you are sensory.
Come again? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We must play on different servers. While there are always a few exceptions, most pub players I've seen understand how cloaking works. It's one of the less-oblique NS concepts; you attack, you de-cloak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not really, most pubbers know how cloak works, but are not good at placement of the chambers. Where the sensory cloaks and where it's place is as important then the skulk using it to attack...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->25 res is a very large investment for a structure that has to be build on the battle lines (near a sensory chamber, so cloaked aliens can munch you while you build)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Build one in the MS. Ping.
2. Build one next to an elec RT.
3. Build one next to an elec TF.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Build one in MS, ping. Sensory is in a vent where marines can kill it... Must continue pinging until RT is built AND electrified...
2. Electrifying every RT is a precious waste of resources that could be used for upgrades, other advancement...
3. Dropping TF's all over the map is another waste of resources....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But wait, why not just let the aliens cloak and go a different way? Now you're letting the sensories give the aliens map control<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The radius for SC area-cloaking is, in map coverage terms, really tiny. Larger rooms (like all hives) require two or more SCs to cover them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about how much the sensory covers. All it really needs to cover in most cases is one entrance, then skulks have an ambush point. Alien area denial is controlling a chokepoint on the map, not the entire map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most maps have a few key choke points.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is exactly why cloak-ambushing as a defensive strategy fails. If you know you're going to be attacked at a certain location, the whole stealth factor is gone. You ping, the aliens appear, and it's a vanilla fight.
Same thing applies with aliens holding key areas like hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends. If you're defensive strategy is holding marines back right outside your hive, yes, it will fail. However, holding a chokepoint, say topographical or West Skylights in Veil, near MS, it can be deadly. How is a commander going to contiue pinging both choke points? Or as long as the skulks keep a steady flow running back there when they die, there will no energy left, and aliens still coming. This argument comes from the "there's more than 2 marines there, we lost that area" mentality. If you KEPT pressure, odds are the marines would give up. Alot of times, I've seen ground given up psychologically, not because the other team was better, just one team gave up on it.
You'd think the marines would be smart enough to realize that there was a sensory chamber nearby after dying a few times at this chokepoint. And then--I dunno, maybe scan there? Fire wildly around to decloak it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Build one in MS, ping. Sensory is in a vent where marines can kill it... Must continue pinging until RT is built AND electrified...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most maps have few full-height vents, so this tactic is confined to a few areas of the map. Of those areas, fewer still are of any special strategic importance. In the few cases where you can do this, most of your cloak radius is wasted cloaking stuff outside the map. So you end up with a small hemisphere of useful cloaking in a handful of well-known map locations.
While this is a neat trick, it's hardly a key factor in evaluating the utility of sensory chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Electrifying every RT is a precious waste of resources that could be used for upgrades, other advancement...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In at least half the public server games I play, the marines use RT electrification.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dropping TF's all over the map is another waste of resources....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about dropping them at these choke points I keep hearing about?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not about how much the sensory covers. All it really needs to cover in most cases is one entrance, then skulks have an ambush point. Alien area denial is controlling a chokepoint on the map, not the entire map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, at least on public servers, alien area denial is about staying mobile, communicating marine movements, and massing to intercept and reverse marine pushes. A single static ambush point will either be avoided or, eventually, destroyed. Multiple static ambush points will divide alien forces between them, thereby reducing the defensibility of each ambush point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This argument comes from the "there's more than 2 marines there, we lost that area" mentality. If you KEPT pressure, odds are the marines would give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
?
The argument you quoted comes from the notion that "ambushes" rely on the target being unaware. If the target knows about the ambush, then the stealth factor is removed, and the engagement is no different than if one side were defending an area and the other attacking.
In at least half the public server games I play, the marines use RT electrification.
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This is clan play he's talking about.
I comm on public servers and while it is viable to do it on there, it's worthless on clan play. A single gorge+skulk combo will take one out, and clans are highly organized and actually work together.
I really don't think the sensory chamber is really that good, once you attack, you de-cloak, and you might kill one or two, but if the marines are in a group, you're screwed, unless you focus bite and get the hell out of there.
What I'd like to know is, what do you propose we do with sensories? You want them to be equally viable as a first hive chamber, right? Do you think that will be possible if we make them any more easily counterable than they already are?
What I'd like to know is, what do you propose we do with sensories? You want them to be equally viable as a first hive chamber, right? Do you think that will be possible if we make them any more easily counterable than they already are? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've seen sensories completely and utterlly DOMINATE marines in 3.0.
Civ is right. Sensories are VERY good in 3.0 because of focus.
However, I wouldn't say it's overpowered. Sensories are still extreamlly limited and have huge drawbacks. I'd say sensory chambers are finally useful, but not dominating.
Although when marines play into sensory chambers and the almighty ability known as focus's hands, yes I've seen one fade take on countless shotgunners and kill them all.
Neither movements nor Ds have hard counters that eliminate their primary benefit and the chamber's effect. Sensory most certainly does. The only thing even close to that is MT vs. Silence. civman has yet to produce any compelling evidence that sensory is overpowered; that is, that it is not only the most powerful alien chamber selection but that marines have a very hard time winning against it.