[brag] It appears I'm one of a very few that actually try and balance out a game. If the teams are uneven and people are actually interested in a good game, I will switch sides. Some times I've switched sides more than twice in one game. (The exception being when I've been on the disadvantaged team and nobody changed to our side... later on the balance shifted... my arse did I change teams then.) I don't think I've ever left the game or F4'd out of spite or frustration. If I notice one team seems to have a higher clan tag and symbol factor, I will call out 'bloody stackers'. I can appreciate it is more fun playing with your higher-skilled teammates, but I'd rather lose than be selfish to others, frankly... [/brag]
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Feb 28 2004, 10:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Feb 28 2004, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't see ANY problem with F4 at all. A team that hits F4 is resigning, and there is <b>no shame </b>in resigning. Resignation is a key aspect of chess, and chess takes way more 'brains' than NS ever could. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, hitting F4 can be a way of resigning, but, the biggest problem is that doesn't matter what the team as a whole wants. As long as you end up having four people less then the other team you loose (unless that's been changed, just returned to the game after a couple of month's). What if the rest of the team really wanted to give it a chance and put up a good last fight? It doesn't exactly seem fair to them to have to loose just because a couple of players give up.
I myself never F4 unless the other team is lacking in numbers and it needs some evening out. I really don't mind being slaughtered at the end of the game if the other team's better. Feels like part of the game to me. You can't expect to win all the time.
<!--QuoteBegin-@nthony+Feb 26 2004, 09:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (@nthony @ Feb 26 2004, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Happens all the time. My same-case scenario is on the {LoC} server, where many a game will have its top or bottom half of the scoreboard dominated by {LoC}. My advice, if the admins are doing then there's no hope for that server, if players/regs are doing it, speak to the admins. If all else fails go to a reputable server governed by veteran admins such as voogru or bean.net. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> problem with the LoC folk is that they like to stack marines usually, I always go Alien because I counter whatever they can possibly throw at the aliens. Their strategy is weak and their aim is even less effective, lesson to be learned is, just because teams have a tag next to their name, it does NOT mean they have skill. Clan stackers are not always skill stackers.
I do such a good job of cleaning house as a fade there its no wonder they banned me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In modns.org is my simple auto random plugin that does these things: - after map change everyone is unable to move (sv_maxspeed 0) - jointeamone, jointeamtwo blocked.. - countdown is shown to all players and when it reaches 0, everyone is autoassigned..
I have been using it on my servers for all the time and works fine .. If you have mp_limitteams 1, people cant realy change assigned team and they must play there.
<!--QuoteBegin-Birdy+Feb 28 2004, 10:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Birdy @ Feb 28 2004, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mano-waR+Feb 28 2004, 05:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mano-waR @ Feb 28 2004, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tbh skill stacking is not cool @ all. Its not fun for the vet team nor is it for the newbie team. skill stacking is a primary condition for a boring bad game.
Best games are always the ones with very fair teams.
thats why i play on servers with a auto assign team plug-in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I'm having alot of fun stacking with people that are good so why bother playing with NSPlayers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> birdy plays with me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This topic is pointless, there is no way you can stop people from F4ing in a game unless you are the admin. At that point you can ban people. Even if they take away F4 you still have Ye'Ol ~retry.
I'm a big fan of doing what you want. If you want to F4 in games you are going to lose, then F4. If you don't want to F4, then don't.
If you really want to make everyone happy, just remove auto-concede. Then, the people who want to F4 can, and those who want to lose-over-time can do so without the help of those who want to F4.
thats the attitude to have, if the one team can't have, don't let the other team have any! As some people said, stacking occurs when the other team isnt as skilled. Why should I play down several levels of play when I can play normally when playing with friends? Is that as fun for me ? Vets shouldn't have to play down, the other players should try harder to compete at their level, not play against handicapped players. If you don't like the stacking, stay away from servers that have vets and other people out of your league of play, stay on the newb servers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Mar 1 2004, 08:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Mar 1 2004, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think I've ever seen Birdy in game... not even once... or maybe once.
Other than that skill stacking only occurs when the other team lacks skill.
Solution?
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>"GET SOME SKILL" </span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> failure allready said this...
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 1 2004, 08:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 1 2004, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> thats the attitude to have, if the one team can't have, don't let the other team have any! As some people said, stacking occurs when the other team isnt as skilled. Why should I play down several levels of play when I can play normally when playing with friends? Is that as fun for me ? Vets shouldn't have to play down, the other players should try harder to compete at their level, not play against handicapped players. If you don't like the stacking, stay away from servers that have vets and other people out of your league of play, stay on the newb servers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only problem with this is the fact that ALL pubs have frequent "1337" players on them... including the noob only servers. If you want to be playing based on personal skill in any serious measure then that is what organized clan matches are for... or at least blatantly advertised "high level gameplay required" servers. Playing in clan matches applies even moreso if you have no capacity for fun without exerting 110% effort... which is rediculous and I truly pity your incessant dedication to a waste of time (despite popular opinion, playing games is NOT PRODUCTIVE 99% of the time). I would say the majority of players play the game somewhat casually. They simply have other, more important things to do in life than play NS more than an hour or two a day... and thats pushing. These things include having a job, pariticipating in community service, planning finances to include saving for retirement in line with inflation trends, spending quality time with family and/or significant other, etc...
The bottom line is that those who mandate everybody else simply needs to "get more skill" are in the sharp minority and are largely ignored and/or are generally disliked by the rest of the "normal" population. I say if you find yourself to be in that top 1-2% bracket of play then leave the rest of us the hell alone and go find some dedicated server strictly meant for high level play OR you could just not be a **** about it and play down your level of play to allow the rest of the people on the less skilled servers a chance to succeed OR (heaven forbid) you could actually dispense valuable knowledge and tricks of the trade to raise the general level of play on any given server you attend instead of explaining every accusation of hax with... "nope, I'm just that good... why aren't you!".
Claiming that everybody should be as good as the existing 1-2% bracket to have any fun is an arrogant, obstinate, elitist, and generally unwelcome comment. You simply can't expect everybody to be the best... most of them are incapable of being such and the rest could care less.
To Firewater specifically: also take into account that your opinion is only one version of opinion... take every statement in your argument and replace it with its opposite and you will come up with an equally valid point from the less-skilled perspective.
I think NS should implement mandatory random team assignment unless tourney mode is on. This gives clan matches the ability to stack the teams as needed while letting the rest of us bypass the readyroom altogether and straight into the game on whichever side needs us.
It would be nice to see an adminmod module that stores player info just like a stat page module would, except with the ability to use that information to make an educated estimate on how best to arrange the teams as opposed to totally random.
Interesting how I stopped competitive play, but I'll go along with your comment. Anyone who has any skill in ANYTHING, (not just games) knows that its not how long you practice, its how effective you practice. Longevity without efficency leads to bitterness. I've seen a lot of people put a lot of time in this game, just to get their **** handed to them several different ways. I've also seen how they practice, and its not very effective at all, and they can be downright nasty as well. These are the same people that cry about how the game is unbalanced and everytime they die they have an excuse. I've seen people that play no more than hr a day that can mop the floor with anyone. These so called elitist, arrogant players are the ones that search for a more effective means of practice, and utilize that to the best of their ability. Is it wrong for these people to show case their skills that they have developed? No. I will challenge, and always continue to challenge players, clanners, and vets a like to play better. Because I feel that the more people that get better at this game the more enrichening experience it is for ALL players. So that way the excuses die out, and more effective ideas for balance and other gameplay changes are with merrit, not just someone crying because they got destroyed. Its not wrong for the vets and clanners to want to play with a team that is competent as they are.
About your comment about dispensing knowledge, feel free to re-read my signature for some enlightenment.
Because there can only be 2 types of players, clearly.
To get better at a game you have to play seriously. Which means you won't have fun, unless you're better than most, or possibly when in an organized group(although I can see how people get annoyed even then, as they get defeated). 'Winner has the most fun', has always been the case, but playing seriously makes it worse.
I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about efficiency vs. longevity... thanks for the correction. I even agree that is healthy to challenge the less skilled to get better. I also agree that it is fine that clanners and vets have the desire to play with equally competent teammates. This is all fine and good.
The problem comes in when it is EXPECTED that all players get better and EXPECTED that all clanners and vets be able to play with each other. There are some forums (not the typing kind) of play where these actions are perfectly acceptable (clan matches / scrims) and other forums of play where these actions are for the most part reprehensible (most pubs). It all boils down to some form of ethics. Good players should limit themselves to playing only on servers with other good players... and specifically against the other good players. Poor / developing players should limit themselves to playing only on servers with other Poor / developing players. In accordance, admins to servers should explicitly define what kind of level of play is wanted on that server and people should try and match that level of play... otherwise be kicked (whether not good enough or too good).
What I'm trying to get at is that most pub servers are brewing ground for newbies and developing players. Clanners and vets should not expect the other players to play on their level while visiting said pub servers and should accordingly play down their own skill or leave as they are otherwise largely unwelcome.
This always seems to come down to the fundamental point of why the game is played: 1) To gain as much skill and to win as often as possible. 2) To have fun.
The two are equally valid points. Games are, almost by definition, an activity designed for recreation, fun, and possibly relaxation. On the other hand, there is almost a moral importance in playing to gain skill and win. Working in an attempt to reach one's maximum potential is a noble pursuit.
The problem is that these ideas don't mix, yet people with these opposing philosophies are playing the same game, there's no way around it. Skill seekers are frustrated by those just wishing to have fun, and are unwilling to dedicate the time and focus necessary to maximize their potential skill at the game. Those here to simply have fun are frustrated by the skill seekers because their aggressive attitude and disregard for the experience of the fun seekers lessens or even ruins the friendly, fun and laid back atmosphere they're looking for.
Neither side is really right or wrong. It doesn't seem to be about that anyway, IMO. However, separate sides of the game have cropped up to cater more or less to each player type: Experienced players only servers, leagues, tournaments and scrimms amongst skilled clans are designed to provide the high playing level desired by those wishing to sharpen their skills. The remainder of pub servers, and informal pug games or friendly LAN parties make up the remainder, and cater to players looking to have some fun.
A proposition to better relations between the two camps is thus: simply to take a quick heads-up of the atmosphere of the game you're in. Is it skill or recreation focused? Then adjust your behavior accordingly. If you're a casual player in a high-skill environment, be ready to play hard, learn and focus, and avoid complaining about skill stacking or whatnot, or perhaps find a different server. Likewise, if you're a clanner/vet/hotshot in a pub game and people seem genuinely upset about the effects you or your clan are having on the balance and fun of the game, tone it back a bit. Offer to switch teams, or split your clan up so there isn't a single team that has a large advantage. If everyone has the same expectations as to the atmosphere of a given server, F4'ing, stacking, and accusations should be kept to a minimum. Of course there will always be the 'squeaky wheels': newbies that insist on not reading a manual to save their life and accuse cheating everytime they die, or rude and arrogant skilled players who think they're god's gift to NS. C'est la vie, unfortunately. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Palin essentially paraphased what I had to say before I typed it. Ah well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About your comment about dispensing knowledge, feel free to re-read my signature for some enlightenment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lesson to be learned is, just because teams have a tag next to their name, it does NOT mean they have skill. Clan stackers are not always skill stackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too true, my friends and I all throw the same tag in front of our name, but none of us play more than a few hours a week, and none of us have plans to really compete on a clan level. However, a lot of times people assume that we are really good, and stacking a team, when we are just trying to play with a few of our friends on a strange public server.
I know that I often try to make sure the teams are balanced out, but at the same time, when there are just two of us, playing with just one on each team isn't so much fun. If we played enough to have a regular server, then this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Part of the problem isn't just that people want to win, its that they enjoy playing with the people they know.
Also, it can be very agrivating to play with people that have no desire to better themselves. This isn't an issue so much anymore, but when I was playing more regularly a year ago, the number of people that didn't know what was going on, and didn't seem to care to learn was depressing.
On the f4 side of things, I think its better to finish out the round, ask people not to stack the teams, and then quit next round if they ignore you, then it is to f4 just because you see a bunch of good players on the other team (or just players you THINK are good.) I know I do not enjoy getting crushed by the other team, but it happens. When it happens with regularity, I know I need to find another server. In way its a kind of natural selection.
The most fun I have ever had in online games, was playing exceedingly average on servers with other distinctly average people, but being perfectly well aware of my limitations and not giving a rat's a$$ if I "pwned" or not. If I had a good game... well, great! If I didn't... well nevermind, I was having fun; why should I care about other people's marginal superiority in hand-eye coordination?
However, as soon as there's any sort of pressure or expectation, whether because you play in a clan and can't let the side down, or if you play long enough to develop a moderate level of skill and a sense of your own personal expectations, and you don't deliver, it very quickly stops being fun. The same applies, for example, when there's a huge stack on one team and you can't play as well as you would if the more skilled players were distributed evenly. It's frustrating, boring, doesn't help foster a good atmosphere on the server and basically helps to make NS somewhat newbie-unfriendly.
Most people I know play for fun: it's not fun to play in an unfair game when it could obviously BE fair, if only the 'elites' didn't opt for the "we-am-de-best" strategy of stack and destroy.
I do not get displeased with a marine team that decides to resign a game as a whole, what I get mad about is the marines who will F4 when things go bad, and by doing so screw their teammates who may not think that its over yet, or who still have a chance. It's not really the actual F4'ing that bothers me, it's the abandoning of your team that bothers me. If people ask and the team says it's alright, then I'm fine with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Mar 1 2004, 01:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Mar 1 2004, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About your comment about dispensing knowledge, feel free to re-read my signature for some enlightenment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I cant think of anything more arrogant or elitist then a person who tries to help those who do not want to hear it. Thats why I let people who actually want to learn how to become better come to me, rather than me preach my game theory to those who will turn away and do the opposite, or flat out ignore me.
Shrugs, I think the issue is not so much skill stack, as bad-attitude stack. What hurts alot more than the opposing team being 1337 (they're still a pub team, can't pretend thats scary <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ), is your own team being a bunch of inbred retards.
Seriously. We all know these special people that keep droning on in their high pitched voices on teamchat until you mute them, those that put down sensory as Hive 2 and scream "OMG IF U CANT UZZ IT GET SUM SKILLZ", the "OMG COMM GIMME TORRENTS" crowd or the infamous base beggars whose voices will grate on you even more than those generic complainers and who won't do a damn thing for the team because they haven't got their friggin toy.
Thats when I really hate playing NS. If my teams just a bunch of utter beginners that try to do it right though, then I'm in best company could really care less about winning or losing.
@Firewater: M'kay, then help a newbie out here some. Where do I find the infamous "Pros Lerk/Fade lube"? Mine always get stuck in the most inconvenient places :/
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Mar 1 2004, 12:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Mar 1 2004, 12:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because there can only be 2 types of players, clearly.
To get better at a game you have to play seriously. Which means you won't have fun, unless you're better than most, or possibly when in an organized group(although I can see how people get annoyed even then, as they get defeated). 'Winner has the most fun', has always been the case, but playing seriously makes it worse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Playing seriously is the only reason a game is fun 90% of the time.
Forgive me for playing a bit of devil's advocate on my last post. I actually do highly respect your offer to give training to those that wish it and might actually even take you up on that offer someday when i have a bit more time on my hands. Nevertheless you are actually starting to touch on one of my earlier points, and further emphasized by Phoenix Sun.
There clearly ARE two sets of players though not always completely disjoint sets. One set focuses on having, developing, refining, and using personal skill to have fun. The other set focuses on experiencing the environment, playing out dramas, experiencing conflicts and resolutions, and other aspects of the game that have absolutely NOTHING to do with personal skill.
These two sets of people aren't necessarily opposites, but they don't mix well in most situations. Likewise it is rarely beneficial when members of both groups interact. Even when a single player considers him part of both groups he/she tends to emphasize one having more importance over the other. You could also think of those two explanations as extremes on a scale. Set one is on the left side, Set two is on the right. When you play with/against people that are not close to you on that scale then conflicts of interest arise and tempers begin to flare. The simple solution is to never play with people that aren't close to where you are. So here goes the general scale (though a few exceptions may exist)
This is a fairly rough sketch of the kind of skill distribution I personally think should be. Note that the high level players really have no business being on general pubs and to some degree even the Clan Pubs. "With great power comes great responsibility"... Sure its an overused cliche but it is still true. The high skilled player should be more focused on working with other high skill players to put together at the very least some casual scrims (for the non-competitives / retirees like you). Crossing these unwritten barriers only causes unresolvable greif in the long run.
<!--QuoteBegin-AoF.Palin+Mar 1 2004, 01:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AoF.Palin @ Mar 1 2004, 01:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Mar 1 2004, 11:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About your comment about dispensing knowledge, feel free to re-read my signature for some enlightenment. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unfortunately I quit competive NS because there are not a lot of clans, and it is very difficult for me to find a scrim whenever I was in a clan. I dont have the time to do casual scrims or PUGs either. So what am I supposed to do, not play? Because I will stomp everyone in those "newb servers?" give me a break. The difference between the casual players and the elite ones is that the elite ones have something the casual players don't. Skill. You cannot take that away, skilled players are not going to play down to suit the needs of newcommers, its stupid. Its natural to put forth an effort everytime you play. The elite are not doing anyone any favors by playing down, they are just making things worse.
And because the elite are such a small minority, there usually isn't enough around at one time to fill a pub, so a small group usually migrate towards a server. If admins do not wish to have those players around, they should ban them. Simple way to solve the problem. The elite are too good, eliminate them, that way you can play your average game, and they can find another place to play where they will not be persecuted for being talented.
The difference between elite players and casual players is NOT simply skill. Should I and a large majority of the casual players actually cared enough to put a committment towards it we could be just as good as the elite players.... but there in lies the point. None of us really care. Most of us really pity those that do care. Its one thing to be all you can be... but at least do it in something that benefits you in real life (ie. academics, career, politics, service). Last time I checked NS was only a game and hardly at the levels of say professional athletics. In professional athletics, their performance determines their livlihood... in NS your performance determines what?.... bragging rights?... please tell me thats not the only thing that drives the elite!
You may actually want to take the thought of quitting seriously... I'll be the first to admit that I hate seeing ANY player leave the game, but if you can't learn to enjoy the game as a game as opposed to some measure of self worth then you might want to consider distancing yourself from it and taking a fresh breath of life. If not quit, at least take a breather. I've done this on several occasions over the years and have been able to come back to games later that I really enjoyed "back in the day" and still enjoy them. It also spares the rest of the non-elite community the problem of knowing which team will win before the game even starts... why?... because they won't see you on either side.
Just to clear the issue, when I say "play down your skill" I am simply meaning just enough to make everyone feel like they have a chance against you even though you are still decidedly better than them. This gives everyone a chance to progressively get better over time... you can't seriously expect everyone to simply jump up to your level of play as soon as you join the server. For most people getting better is a fairly slow process, mostly because its not their main driving goal (albeit a secondary goal). If you cater to this realization you can still promote challenging players to better themselve without overwhelming them to the point of making them dislike you, the community, or even the game. It takes patience, and if you don't have that then you've no business being a rolemodel for the masses. In your defence however it also takes patience and willingness on our part so don't think I'm blaming the problem solely on the elites, we've got our problems too.
Comments
I can appreciate it is more fun playing with your higher-skilled teammates, but I'd rather lose than be selfish to others, frankly... [/brag]
Yeah, hitting F4 can be a way of resigning, but, the biggest problem is that doesn't matter what the team as a whole wants. As long as you end up having four people less then the other team you loose (unless that's been changed, just returned to the game after a couple of month's). What if the rest of the team really wanted to give it a chance and put up a good last fight? It doesn't exactly seem fair to them to have to loose just because a couple of players give up.
I myself never F4 unless the other team is lacking in numbers and it needs some evening out. I really don't mind being slaughtered at the end of the game if the other team's better. Feels like part of the game to me. You can't expect to win all the time.
problem with the LoC folk is that they like to stack marines usually, I always go Alien because I counter whatever they can possibly throw at the aliens. Their strategy is weak and their aim is even less effective, lesson to be learned is, just because teams have a tag next to their name, it does NOT mean they have skill. Clan stackers are not always skill stackers.
I do such a good job of cleaning house as a fade there its no wonder they banned me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- after map change everyone is unable to move (sv_maxspeed 0)
- jointeamone, jointeamtwo blocked..
- countdown is shown to all players and when it reaches 0, everyone is autoassigned..
I have been using it on my servers for all the time and works fine .. If you have mp_limitteams 1, people cant realy change assigned team and they must play there.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>"GET SOME SKILL"</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL ahmen ^_^
i wanna quote you on that
Best games are always the ones with very fair teams.
thats why i play on servers with a auto assign team plug-in. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I'm having alot of fun stacking with people that are good so why bother playing with NSPlayers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
birdy plays with me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Other than that skill stacking only occurs when the other team lacks skill.
Solution?
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>"GET SOME SKILL" </span>
I'm a big fan of doing what you want. If you want to F4 in games you are going to lose, then F4. If you don't want to F4, then don't.
If you really want to make everyone happy, just remove auto-concede. Then, the people who want to F4 can, and those who want to lose-over-time can do so without the help of those who want to F4.
F4 isnt always bad or good, it depends on the situation.
when skillstacking is going on I guess its justified, but still spoils the stackers game.
Other than that skill stacking only occurs when the other team lacks skill.
Solution?
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>"GET SOME SKILL" </span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
failure allready said this...
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>"GET SOME SKILL"</span> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
^_^
The only problem with this is the fact that ALL pubs have frequent "1337" players on them... including the noob only servers. If you want to be playing based on personal skill in any serious measure then that is what organized clan matches are for... or at least blatantly advertised "high level gameplay required" servers. Playing in clan matches applies even moreso if you have no capacity for fun without exerting 110% effort... which is rediculous and I truly pity your incessant dedication to a waste of time (despite popular opinion, playing games is NOT PRODUCTIVE 99% of the time). I would say the majority of players play the game somewhat casually. They simply have other, more important things to do in life than play NS more than an hour or two a day... and thats pushing. These things include having a job, pariticipating in community service, planning finances to include saving for retirement in line with inflation trends, spending quality time with family and/or significant other, etc...
The bottom line is that those who mandate everybody else simply needs to "get more skill" are in the sharp minority and are largely ignored and/or are generally disliked by the rest of the "normal" population. I say if you find yourself to be in that top 1-2% bracket of play then leave the rest of us the hell alone and go find some dedicated server strictly meant for high level play OR you could just not be a **** about it and play down your level of play to allow the rest of the people on the less skilled servers a chance to succeed OR (heaven forbid) you could actually dispense valuable knowledge and tricks of the trade to raise the general level of play on any given server you attend instead of explaining every accusation of hax with... "nope, I'm just that good... why aren't you!".
Claiming that everybody should be as good as the existing 1-2% bracket to have any fun is an arrogant, obstinate, elitist, and generally unwelcome comment. You simply can't expect everybody to be the best... most of them are incapable of being such and the rest could care less.
To Firewater specifically: also take into account that your opinion is only one version of opinion... take every statement in your argument and replace it with its opposite and you will come up with an equally valid point from the less-skilled perspective.
I think NS should implement mandatory random team assignment unless tourney mode is on. This gives clan matches the ability to stack the teams as needed while letting the rest of us bypass the readyroom altogether and straight into the game on whichever side needs us.
It would be nice to see an adminmod module that stores player info just like a stat page module would, except with the ability to use that information to make an educated estimate on how best to arrange the teams as opposed to totally random.
About your comment about dispensing knowledge, feel free to re-read my signature for some enlightenment.
To get better at a game you have to play seriously. Which means you won't have fun, unless you're better than most, or possibly when in an organized group(although I can see how people get annoyed even then, as they get defeated).
'Winner has the most fun', has always been the case, but playing seriously makes it worse.
The problem comes in when it is EXPECTED that all players get better and EXPECTED that all clanners and vets be able to play with each other. There are some forums (not the typing kind) of play where these actions are perfectly acceptable (clan matches / scrims) and other forums of play where these actions are for the most part reprehensible (most pubs). It all boils down to some form of ethics. Good players should limit themselves to playing only on servers with other good players... and specifically against the other good players. Poor / developing players should limit themselves to playing only on servers with other Poor / developing players. In accordance, admins to servers should explicitly define what kind of level of play is wanted on that server and people should try and match that level of play... otherwise be kicked (whether not good enough or too good).
What I'm trying to get at is that most pub servers are brewing ground for newbies and developing players. Clanners and vets should not expect the other players to play on their level while visiting said pub servers and should accordingly play down their own skill or leave as they are otherwise largely unwelcome.
1) To gain as much skill and to win as often as possible.
2) To have fun.
The two are equally valid points. Games are, almost by definition, an activity designed for recreation, fun, and possibly relaxation.
On the other hand, there is almost a moral importance in playing to gain skill and win. Working in an attempt to reach one's maximum potential is a noble pursuit.
The problem is that these ideas don't mix, yet people with these opposing philosophies are playing the same game, there's no way around it. Skill seekers are frustrated by those just wishing to have fun, and are unwilling to dedicate the time and focus necessary to maximize their potential skill at the game. Those here to simply have fun are frustrated by the skill seekers because their aggressive attitude and disregard for the experience of the fun seekers lessens or even ruins the friendly, fun and laid back atmosphere they're looking for.
Neither side is really right or wrong. It doesn't seem to be about that anyway, IMO. However, separate sides of the game have cropped up to cater more or less to each player type:
Experienced players only servers, leagues, tournaments and scrimms amongst skilled clans are designed to provide the high playing level desired by those wishing to sharpen their skills.
The remainder of pub servers, and informal pug games or friendly LAN parties make up the remainder, and cater to players looking to have some fun.
A proposition to better relations between the two camps is thus: simply to take a quick heads-up of the atmosphere of the game you're in. Is it skill or recreation focused? Then adjust your behavior accordingly. If you're a casual player in a high-skill environment, be ready to play hard, learn and focus, and avoid complaining about skill stacking or whatnot, or perhaps find a different server. Likewise, if you're a clanner/vet/hotshot in a pub game and people seem genuinely upset about the effects you or your clan are having on the balance and fun of the game, tone it back a bit. Offer to switch teams, or split your clan up so there isn't a single team that has a large advantage. If everyone has the same expectations as to the atmosphere of a given server, F4'ing, stacking, and accusations should be kept to a minimum. Of course there will always be the 'squeaky wheels': newbies that insist on not reading a manual to save their life and accuse cheating everytime they die, or rude and arrogant skilled players who think they're god's gift to NS. C'est la vie, unfortunately. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Palin essentially paraphased what I had to say before I typed it. Ah well <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players.
Too true, my friends and I all throw the same tag in front of our name, but none of us play more than a few hours a week, and none of us have plans to really compete on a clan level. However, a lot of times people assume that we are really good, and stacking a team, when we are just trying to play with a few of our friends on a strange public server.
I know that I often try to make sure the teams are balanced out, but at the same time, when there are just two of us, playing with just one on each team isn't so much fun. If we played enough to have a regular server, then this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Part of the problem isn't just that people want to win, its that they enjoy playing with the people they know.
Also, it can be very agrivating to play with people that have no desire to better themselves. This isn't an issue so much anymore, but when I was playing more regularly a year ago, the number of people that didn't know what was going on, and didn't seem to care to learn was depressing.
On the f4 side of things, I think its better to finish out the round, ask people not to stack the teams, and then quit next round if they ignore you, then it is to f4 just because you see a bunch of good players on the other team (or just players you THINK are good.) I know I do not enjoy getting crushed by the other team, but it happens. When it happens with regularity, I know I need to find another server. In way its a kind of natural selection.
However, as soon as there's any sort of pressure or expectation, whether because you play in a clan and can't let the side down, or if you play long enough to develop a moderate level of skill and a sense of your own personal expectations, and you don't deliver, it very quickly stops being fun. The same applies, for example, when there's a huge stack on one team and you can't play as well as you would if the more skilled players were distributed evenly. It's frustrating, boring, doesn't help foster a good atmosphere on the server and basically helps to make NS somewhat newbie-unfriendly.
Most people I know play for fun: it's not fun to play in an unfair game when it could obviously BE fair, if only the 'elites' didn't opt for the "we-am-de-best" strategy of stack and destroy.
While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cant think of anything more arrogant or elitist then a person who tries to help those who do not want to hear it. Thats why I let people who actually want to learn how to become better come to me, rather than me preach my game theory to those who will turn away and do the opposite, or flat out ignore me.
Seriously. We all know these special people that keep droning on in their high pitched voices on teamchat until you mute them, those that put down sensory as Hive 2 and scream "OMG IF U CANT UZZ IT GET SUM SKILLZ", the "OMG COMM GIMME TORRENTS" crowd or the infamous base beggars whose voices will grate on you even more than those generic complainers and who won't do a damn thing for the team because they haven't got their friggin toy.
Thats when I really hate playing NS. If my teams just a bunch of utter beginners that try to do it right though, then I'm in best company could really care less about winning or losing.
@Firewater:
M'kay, then help a newbie out here some. Where do I find the infamous "Pros Lerk/Fade lube"? Mine always get stuck in the most inconvenient places :/
To get better at a game you have to play seriously. Which means you won't have fun, unless you're better than most, or possibly when in an organized group(although I can see how people get annoyed even then, as they get defeated).
'Winner has the most fun', has always been the case, but playing seriously makes it worse. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Playing seriously is the only reason a game is fun 90% of the time.
claners on one side pubers on the other with the number of players on each team being even
hope that is understiandable.
There clearly ARE two sets of players though not always completely disjoint sets. One set focuses on having, developing, refining, and using personal skill to have fun. The other set focuses on experiencing the environment, playing out dramas, experiencing conflicts and resolutions, and other aspects of the game that have absolutely NOTHING to do with personal skill.
These two sets of people aren't necessarily opposites, but they don't mix well in most situations. Likewise it is rarely beneficial when members of both groups interact. Even when a single player considers him part of both groups he/she tends to emphasize one having more importance over the other. You could also think of those two explanations as extremes on a scale. Set one is on the left side, Set two is on the right. When you play with/against people that are not close to you on that scale then conflicts of interest arise and tempers begin to flare. The simple solution is to never play with people that aren't close to where you are. So here goes the general scale (though a few exceptions may exist)
Experience emphasis (less skill)-------------------------------------Skill emphasis
| -----Low Skill----- | ---------Developing Skill--------- | --------High Skill-------- |
| Nubs Only | General Pubs | Clan Pubs | Casual Scrims | Scrims | Tourney |
This is a fairly rough sketch of the kind of skill distribution I personally think should be. Note that the high level players really have no business being on general pubs and to some degree even the Clan Pubs. "With great power comes great responsibility"... Sure its an overused cliche but it is still true. The high skilled player should be more focused on working with other high skill players to put together at the very least some casual scrims (for the non-competitives / retirees like you). Crossing these unwritten barriers only causes unresolvable greif in the long run.
While a good gesture to be sure, it still isn't enough if you intend to play on pubs. If someone as good as you intends to play on pubs we would much rather see you universally devote your play time on said pub servers to helping everyone rather than to just those that ask. Otherwise your skills are largely unwelcome to most pub servers. If you're looking to have fun for yourself then please limit yourself to playing with people that you know play as well as you do both on your team AND opposing you. This means casual scrimming with equivalently good teams/clans or getting back into the competitive stuff. After all, you said yourself that it is only right that clanners and vets want to play with like-skilled players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately I quit competive NS because there are not a lot of clans, and it is very difficult for me to find a scrim whenever I was in a clan. I dont have the time to do casual scrims or PUGs either. So what am I supposed to do, not play? Because I will stomp everyone in those "newb servers?" give me a break. The difference between the casual players and the elite ones is that the elite ones have something the casual players don't. Skill. You cannot take that away, skilled players are not going to play down to suit the needs of newcommers, its stupid. Its natural to put forth an effort everytime you play. The elite are not doing anyone any favors by playing down, they are just making things worse.
And because the elite are such a small minority, there usually isn't enough around at one time to fill a pub, so a small group usually migrate towards a server. If admins do not wish to have those players around, they should ban them. Simple way to solve the problem. The elite are too good, eliminate them, that way you can play your average game, and they can find another place to play where they will not be persecuted for being talented.
You may actually want to take the thought of quitting seriously... I'll be the first to admit that I hate seeing ANY player leave the game, but if you can't learn to enjoy the game as a game as opposed to some measure of self worth then you might want to consider distancing yourself from it and taking a fresh breath of life. If not quit, at least take a breather. I've done this on several occasions over the years and have been able to come back to games later that I really enjoyed "back in the day" and still enjoy them. It also spares the rest of the non-elite community the problem of knowing which team will win before the game even starts... why?... because they won't see you on either side.
Just to clear the issue, when I say "play down your skill" I am simply meaning just enough to make everyone feel like they have a chance against you even though you are still decidedly better than them. This gives everyone a chance to progressively get better over time... you can't seriously expect everyone to simply jump up to your level of play as soon as you join the server. For most people getting better is a fairly slow process, mostly because its not their main driving goal (albeit a secondary goal). If you cater to this realization you can still promote challenging players to better themselve without overwhelming them to the point of making them dislike you, the community, or even the game. It takes patience, and if you don't have that then you've no business being a rolemodel for the masses. In your defence however it also takes patience and willingness on our part so don't think I'm blaming the problem solely on the elites, we've got our problems too.