Problems With Sieging

BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation
edited February 2004 in NS General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">...due to this new building limitation</div> since 3.0, you have to have a certain space between buildings. i dont like it at all, but meh you learn to live with it. however, it does become quite the pain when trying to siege, esp from certain locations.

sometimes, you have tons of res and need a hive down fast, so you wanna build like 5 sieges. but hey, you need at least a turret or two to make sure your guys can build in peace as well. maybe an armory if it gets a bit busy, and an extra obs or two if you need extra scanner sweep. but in some siege locations (mainly tight corridors) you can build like 4 sieges max (given its a tight corridor where you cant put two next to each other in the width) and have to give up turrets.

MY GOD its a right pain in the arse. am i the only one finding this taking the cookie, or are there more stressing comms out there who just cant build the amount of sieges they want? sometimes its a real pain, because you can only build 3 sieges in the area where you could have built maybe 6, whether it be to aliens being stubborn not letting you build that extra siege in the front line, or simply because theres no more room.

i've found myself losing quite a few games over this already, because there was not enough room for sufficient sieges/turrets.


  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    If you have lots of res, slap down 3 tf's, then you have a good amount of space for sieges/turrets, even if it is a narrow hallway. Also, why can't you set up a pg with some turrets, then send in a bunch of HA/hmg/gl marines with medspam? Maybe sieging is supposed to be harder from narrow areas, especially since enough people complain about the siege.
  • EZeroEZero Join Date: 2003-08-12 Member: 19572Members
    and by that
    i now officially declare powersilo hive in ns_nothing unsiegable


    2 tight hallways on both sides of the hive..... sieging nightmare... ESPECIALLY when you're low on res trying to do a desperate comeback....
  • Swift_IdiotSwift_Idiot Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11883Members
    <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>I think this is appropriate.

    Follow me:

    Sieging, if you can get it to work, is a no hassle, no fuss affair. You're behind a wall, the aliens maybe have two entrances to attack you. It's much more smooth and medpack-free than a full on, go-up-to-the-hive-and-put-your-gun-barrels-to-the-orifice hive assault, or assault on double, or whatever.

    Since it's over once the sieges start firing in most cases, you'd darn well better have trouble if you're trying to be clever and siege from some little vent.

    These are the things comms have to weigh out and come to an opinion on. Is it better trying to build a little siege community in the buttcrack of some space station, or should you just say "Screw it, here's an armory and a PG fellas, don't call us, we'll call you."</span>
  • LastLast Join Date: 2003-10-06 Member: 21463Members
    I don't like the new building limits either. Besides making bases look neat, it servers no real purpose whatsoever. I think it was implemented to stop comm chair walls and massive turret farms. What I don't understand is why it couldn't have been implemented on just those two buildings. Anyways, after a while you learn to live with the new building limits, but sometimes I still have to recycle and old TF and build a new one during siege situations.
  • ShotgunEdShotgunEd Join Date: 2004-01-02 Member: 24966Members
    edited February 2004
    The building limitation has to be the best update to NS in my opinion. I like how its forced commanders to design bases. You have to think a bit more about where to place turrets, so as not to take up all the room but still provide the cover you want. It can add an interesting challenge for a commander which I enjoy.

    I think most problems people have with it would be solved if they had different limitations. For instance a turrets limitation range would be smaller than a turret factory. The different limitations would have to be discussed.

    I think have a more spread out base adds to the feel of the game, making it look more like a base rather than a cluster of random structures, which is what I suppose an alien base is meant to look like.

    EDIT: Ah this is all pretty irrelavent to the original post, sorry.
  • typical_skeletontypical_skeleton Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13944Members
    The limitation was added in part to help prevent "bonsai bases", which had everything bundled together next to an electrified TF. This doesn't represent how NS was meant to be played.

    They're still possible to an extent, but to a lesser degree.

    Complaining about how the limitation makes it difficult to siege is akin to complaining about how running out of ammo makes it difficult to kill stuff. In other words, <b>it's not neccesarily meant to be easy.</b>

    So try to plan ahead a little. If the corridor is too tight, maybe sieging isn't the most viable option.

    It makes sense and should stay in, IMO.
  • ObliteraterObliterater Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9652Members
    edited February 2004
    I would say that this new building spacing is my least favorite change in the new version. It forces the comms to have bases sprawling across the Marine Spawn, and makes covering things with turrets difficult (mainly in weird shaped ones like eclipse).

    When sieging I have also noticed some problems, while I am usualy able to cram two sieges in, I have to resort to mine spam to cover it, since there was no room for proper turret cover.

    Edit: also I have found that the massive increase in electricity range actually makes bonsai bases easier. Critical structures like Phase, IP's, and Armslab can be covered with the electricity, defeating the purpose of the change.
  • Hologram0Hologram0 Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9303Members, Constellation
    The building space buffers are definatelly a good thing, one of the best that are in NS. But they need to be adjusted based on the building size, siege bases are now very difficult to build, perhaps a slightly smaller size limit on the turrets and seiges?
  • Bad_HAL_9000Bad_HAL_9000 Join Date: 2003-10-14 Member: 21676Banned
    I like the new building range limit thing. If stops some exploiting (having TF proto lab, arms lap, etc etc all practicly inside the elec TF) And it makes moving around the marine base much easier. Dont need to crouch jump over things to get out of base.
  • aonomusaonomus Dedicated NS Mastermind (no need for school) Join Date: 2003-11-26 Member: 23605Members, Constellation
    Well I commmed a game today and had a whole team made up of good ppl on redphive steam #2 today. On ns_nothing, we took cargo hive first, never bothered with seige, just lmged it down as it was still building. We took via next, I dropped a amoury and mines, then sent them in and told em to hmg/mine the hive, it worked, same tactic for powersilo, and a victory minus the one guy hiding in redroom. He ended up running away and into a turret farm ^_^
  • PhinPhin Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22556Members, Constellation
    I thought the build radius was introduced not because of people 'explioting' an elec TF by bunching structures around it, but so that when comms did this the marines could move about easier, (Though I still get stuck between buildings anyway, so gg on that one dev team :S ).
  • SDJasonSDJason Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
    The one problem i seem to have a lot has to do with res nodes...

    You can drop a phase near a res node, and then be unable to build the res node...

    One thing id like to see, since i seem to be doing this A LOT, is that you cnat make buidlings aroudn res nodes..

    They have a no build thing the same size as the res node over it would, preventing this from happening any more <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

  • BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation
    I can see everyone's point of view - and I dont have problems with the new coding that doesnt allow crammed structures...but i DO have a problem with the fact it makes siege bases simply hellish to construct.

    Sometimes, you will only have room for 2-3. Imagine a stomping onos up ahead and 2-3 healspraying gorges behind him healing hive, i find the new coding having a too great effect in direct gameplay, and severely hindering marine progress.
  • ChargeCharge Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13144Members
    i hate the new building system. bonsai bases were WAY better if you ask me.
  • typical_skeletontypical_skeleton Join Date: 2003-02-24 Member: 13944Members
    most RTS games feature this limitation...

    I do agree it should be adjusted based on building size. Or possibly removed for turrets.. after all, if turrets ARE a defensive structure who cares if they're "protected" by the electrified TF?

    Seems like a reasonable compromise.
  • QwertyQwerty Join Date: 2003-06-30 Member: 17817Members
    i miss being able to build a 5 story high turret factory tower or comm chair tower etc...
  • Lee_HarveyLee_Harvey Join Date: 2002-12-23 Member: 11448Members
    edited February 2004
    This is something I personally thought anout making a topic on. Not sieging in particular, but the radius in general.

    It becomes irritating and tedious to build marine bases that dont go sprawling all over the marine start area. On some maps (eclipse, ayumi, and I believe it is veil,for example), the new limit forces you to build some structures in ludicrously indefensible positions. Even if you choose to squeeze a few structures behind and next to the comm chair on eclipse, you are then incapable of defending them with turrets. It also puts undue pressure on marines when building outposts. Since many resource towers are squeezed into small corners, it becomes all but impossible to suitably defend them. Again, Power Sub-junction on Eclipse comes to mind. The only way to get a TF to defend that node is to place it <i>in the center of a crossroads</i>.

    I would recommend that the building radius be decreased by at least one third of its size. That would keep "bonsai bases" from happening while fixing a few of the issues these ridiculously large radii cause. Also, scalability of the radius should be looked into. A turret, which has essentially a 10-inch footprint, should be capable of being placed less than 4 feet from other structures.
  • juhojuho Join Date: 2003-02-01 Member: 12965Members
    I'll give my vote to keep the limit with armory, TF, obs, phase, etc "big structures" but make it smaller with turrets and sieges.

    I also remember a game in ns_tanith where the base was relocated to reactor room.
    The comm somehow placed two stuctures (it was a TF and some another, don't remember) so close that we had to jump over them. So the limit doesn't allways make sure that there's enough space between the buildings to let players move freely.

    - juho
  • crono1crono1 Join Date: 2004-01-20 Member: 25497Members, Constellation
    bah, the building limits are good, they make you think. you actually need a building strategy.
    this version is the most balanced version to date and i'm enjoyed ns more than ever, even if it's still a beta!
  • Turkey2Turkey2 Join Date: 2003-04-23 Member: 15766Members
    Radius is too large. Btw I thought you were supposed to be able to build on slopes now? But you cant and that makes the problem even worse when near sloped areas. I think certain structures are worse than others, but it is a problem.
  • KrezalyzKrezalyz Join Date: 2004-02-01 Member: 25898Members
    Or maybe building radiuses were a general NERF to marines. Look it in a new light.
    Now our brave commanders may be forced to use some other tactic than always siege siege siege! Or bonzai bonzai bonzai bases.

    Altough I do agree that in certain buildings the radius is too large.. ie. obs and sentrys.. but not sieges, never ever make it smaller for sieges.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I say its great. i have been comm alot recently, carefully testing the FOOD principle, and I never had any problems. Fits perfectly.

    jsut place structures in such ways that the lesser important ones get hit. <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • im_lostim_lost TWG Rule Guru Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15861Members
    Reduce the build radius for turrets? I think not. They may be small in reality, but if there is no build radius then there will be massive turret farms.

    As far as powersilo being impossible for marines to take, it hasn't become any easier for aliens to take, either. Long corridors on either end give marines a nice advantage in defending the entrances.
  • BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation
    Well i think bonsai bases were silly as well, but nowadays a marine base still looks like a bunch of random structures so meh <!--emo&:p--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • StGeorgeStGeorge Join Date: 2004-02-08 Member: 26258Awaiting Authorization
    The radius is a nice idea, but I think the radius should be cut down by a third or so.
  • OG17OG17 Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2024Members
    I really don't like the radii (radiusesuses) at all. If they're only in to deal with problems caused by electricity, I'd much rather see electricity itself fixed.

    I mean, turrets would be wanting even if they could be grouped.
  • Norml_E_HighNorml_E_High Join Date: 2003-03-30 Member: 15055Members
    Yeah, I kind of feel like only some buildings should have these restrictions on them. I mean they implemented this to stop people from building an entire base around one electric TF. You would think this wouldn't hinder dropping other structures. If only one structure didn't have this restriction on it, it should be the sieges.
  • ObliteraterObliterater Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9652Members
    I never really understood why everyone hated Bonzai bases, and towers/piles of buildings around the comm chair or resnode. Sure it makes it hard for a skulk to come up and eat the base but <b> so do three turrets or mine packs</b>

    The electricity IS more powerfull, but its limited range means the skulks can jump back to heal from a gorge, while still waiting in case a marine phases back, and a building or two will often be left oncovered.

    And of course when the second hive goes up the entire base can be Obliterated by a gorge or two costing the marines hundreds of res, and usualy the game. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • Heavy_DHeavy_D Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10816Members
    Perhaps if it's only on certain maps that the difficulty is especially appartent(eclipse seems to be mentioned a lot above) then the maps should be reshuffled a bit, rather than the feature removed. I'm sure it wouldn't take much to make the marine starts more friendly, especially considering they weren't designed with this in mind at the moment - barring psychic mapping talents : - )
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <span style='color:white'>***Moved.***</span>
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