<!--QuoteBegin-Thursday-+Feb 7 2004, 05:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thursday- @ Feb 7 2004, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anime Tentacle Monster+Feb 7 2004, 05:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anime Tentacle Monster @ Feb 7 2004, 05:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know to expand on my original idea
if u implemented turret defenses in each base (alien and Marine)
You would have to admit that would keep low level's out of the spawns
in essence this c/would draw battles into the middle of the playing field and in essence lengthen games out...
The one draw back I see to this is Team A or B sitting in their spawn with the protection it offers thus creating a stale game...
However it does have the possibility to elmininate spawn killing and lengthen games...
The problem is you have to build the structures (thus far) in co maps the armory is already built so ill assume if u put a turret and a factory either or sides...it will spawn built in the CO maps...
However from a mapper pov if this works suit the defenses to the orientation the map presentes... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good idea, although Combat is fast + furious. Kestrel, is a map with an open marine spawn. That seems to work quite well, until you get lvl 10 fades or an onos, which I think shows that marines will lose without upgrades.
Faceoff is another map where spawn camping is largely responsible, although its a big room, all the spawn points are in the smaller area by the CC <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> So I think co maps are really the spawn plugin (as mentioned) room dimensions and spawn placement. No need to fix combat maps, just tweak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if your dealing with level 10 Onos I think the games had some duration...thats the point of the turret defense.
To stop low levels from coming in however to allow a actually leveld up team whos spent time fragging out in the field to be able to rid the spawn of those with ease.
Yeah I agree some maps have bad spawn layouts however thats one way to remedy it without refurbishing the whole map.
Again the idea isnt to protect the spawns period its to keep low levels out at the beginning so a decent game can take place...
if marines or aliens arnt being spawn killed they have a chance to use their brain, organize a strike force and gain levels smartly(is that a word?) and thus smooth out the game play.
Not to mention its also more realistic than spawn protection...you can add these elements without detracting from the atmosphere of the map...
Esuna is right, spawn invul is the only way to stop spawn camping. But if i remember correctly flayra removed it so that people could spawn camp.
If you stopped spawn camping the games dragged on for far too long. A team could get to the point where they should have won ie "pretty much owning the spawn area and cc area, but could never win due to the newly spawning (and invunerable) players.
Combat was designed to be short fast paced games, not hour long (and boring) epics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Combat was designed to be short fast paced games, not hour long (and boring) epics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the aliens know what their doing the game will be very shot
and extremely unenjoyable
Spawn Camping is good...later in the game...not right off the bat, which is what is happening now.
so.... what, we're looking at spawn invulnerable for the first five minutes? Until the team has an average level of four? Those are both very confusing. I agree that we should just accept it will happen and let it go. Besides, aliens can just get cloaking and use that to wait out the invulnerable time..... then you'd HAVE to get scan to deal with it. It's just going to force people to waste upgrades to deal with spawn campers.
After reading several of these posts I was thinking what if the spawn room was connected to the ms/hive and defended by one or two turrets/ocs. The aliens/marines would have a second or two to orient themselves when they spawned but would still have to rush into battle to defend their cc/hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Possible solution 1:</b> Isolate marine spawn making it an area only accessable to marines with doors leading out to the rest of the map, a la 2fort (or whatever it's called) from TFC.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 1:</b> The aliens can camp the doors making the marines unable to leave spawn. A clever alien team would send half the team to eat the CC leaving the marines powerless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets say 10 on 10. Marines have four exits, each one is totaly seperated from the other. Two lead directly to the CC, the other two lead outside the map. For a full on alien attack, they would need 4/5ths of their team to guard each door, assuming marines will leave out all doors. Also, with marines area of effect weapons, opening a door and throwing a grenade will soften them up. Add to it, the fact that marines all won't go out different doors. They can all rush one and kill two of them, and then the ones attacking the CC. And to add to that, you can one JP only exit in the cealing that is protected, allowing yet another exit. Camping? Please, you are just lazy if you allow the spawn to be camed.
Remember also, it would work both ways. Aliens would have their own protected spawns; you only concentrate on marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> b]Possible solution 2:[/b] Have the marine spawn in a completely different area of the map.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 2:</b> The time it takes to get from the new spawn to the CC may be too long, causing the CC to needlessly sustain heavy damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would do it for both teams. CC and hive will get damage, which can be fixed with weilders and Gorges. Of course if you do it for one team, you will have a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Possible solution 3:</b> Have the marines spawn in an unconnected part of the map and have them teleport in.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 3:</b> Aliens camp the teleport, same problem as solution 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I am slow, you are stoped. Aliens can camp teleport destinations the same way they can camp spawns. Whats the difference? Tell me? Go on? NOTHING! Both times the marines will just apear. I don't even believe I suggested this idea, only that it could be done. You would have to have something similar to the aliens that would spawn them in another area and have them exit w/o a sence of direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Possible solution 4:</b> Give the marines 2-3 seconds of invulnerability on spawn. Giving them the precious few seconds to evade attack and attack an enemy with no fear of death. Give them time to sort their upgrades with no fear of death.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 4:</b> None. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you won't hear anyone say "Remove the spawn invinciblity, it is unfair that the marines get a free five seconds to attack and we can't do anything despite being level 10 Onos with tons of upgrades".
With the invurnablity, you still have the same problems with all of the above. Enemys can camp the spawn points (easier with cloak, you just stand behind them) can easily go from attacking the CC to marines then back again w/o much trouble. Plus you have the problem on invuranble people healing the hive or CC. Yes, that would be fun, all your damage is gone by a guy or two who is invincable.
There would be no "evading attack" there would just be attacking; which is unfair for both teams. You fail to realize the objective of the map is in the center of the enemy's spawn. Spawns are tradionly suposed to be free of enemy attack. If the spawns were protected in any way, there would be tons of time for people get get ready, instead of a few seconds.
Again, you only address the marines having protected spawns: both teams should. It is unfair for both sides to attack an objective within an enemy spawn. It makes the attackers mad that they have no time to really attack because eveyone is spawning, and according to you, attacking w/o fear of getting hurt. The people spawning are mad because they always have to counter attack enemy attacks when they spawn, and have no time to assest the situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, what you are bringing up is a GAMEPLAY PROBLEM and not a MAPPING PROBLEM.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me crazy, but I thought MAPS effected GAMEPLAY. Is it just me? Or does how the made is made effect how you play it? Like how you would play a map that is a box compared to one that is one long hall. Maps and gameplay go hand in hand. This is precicely a mapping problem. There wouldn't be a gameplay problem if the maps had safer spawns.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This has nothing to do with us and is entirely of NO RELEVANCE since the issue has been addressed and a suitable solution has already been FOUND and IMPLEMENTED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Us? Are NS mappers an off shoot of the Borg? I am addressing what I see is a problem of CO maps, which for me, makes them unfun. Just because there is a solution implemented, dosen't mean it is the best one ever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This post was brought to you by the letter "<b>logic</b>" and the number "<b>common sense</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly.
I would like to point out I'm not trying to insult anyones mapping ability or any specific map. If you were/are offend, I offer my apoligies.
I think that the spawn should be seperated from the objective (CC or hive) and that there should be multiple spawn areas. I think that these areas should not be directly protected from the enemy attacks, but simply out of the way so that you don't have the current situation where the attackers are forced to 'spawn camp' as they attack the important objectives of the hive or the CC. It is annoying when you are chomping on the CC or shooting the hive that the enemy is reaspawning right next to you. This would be 100x worse if they were invulnerable when they respawned - a major drawback of invulnerable respawning.
I also think that anyone respawning both in classic or in combat should have a "Ready" message appear just before they respawn - about 4 secs before. This way they are at the controls and ready. Often the problem with respawning is that you simply have no warning that you are about to respawn (other than experience).
Flayra could go another step further and let the person respawning to "Spectate" their respawn location for about 5 secs before they spawn so they know what they are about to get into and thus can get their bearings before they appear. This would be useful in both strategy and combat
Just my opinions.
Remember, everyone, that all CO maps are essentially experiemental gameplay wise at this point - this IS a beta <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
And the invulnerability SUCKS. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So, leave it be, it's fine the way it is, don't want to get camped? DONT DIE.
Comments
if u implemented turret defenses in each base (alien and Marine)
You would have to admit that would keep low level's out of the spawns
in essence this c/would draw battles into the middle of the playing field and in essence lengthen games out...
The one draw back I see to this is Team A or B sitting in their spawn with the protection it offers thus creating a stale game...
However it does have the possibility to elmininate spawn killing and lengthen games...
The problem is you have to build the structures (thus far) in co maps the armory is already built so ill assume if u put a turret and a factory either or sides...it will spawn built in the CO maps...
However from a mapper pov if this works suit the defenses to the orientation the map presentes... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea, although Combat is fast + furious. Kestrel, is a map with an open marine spawn. That seems to work quite well, until you get lvl 10 fades or an onos, which I think shows that marines will lose without upgrades.
Faceoff is another map where spawn camping is largely responsible, although its a big room, all the spawn points are in the smaller area by the CC <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo--> So I think co maps are really the spawn plugin (as mentioned) room dimensions and spawn placement. No need to fix combat maps, just tweak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if your dealing with level 10 Onos I think the games had some duration...thats the point of the turret defense.
To stop low levels from coming in however to allow a actually leveld up team whos spent time fragging out in the field to be able to rid the spawn of those with ease.
Yeah I agree some maps have bad spawn layouts however thats one way to remedy it without refurbishing the whole map.
Again the idea isnt to protect the spawns period its to keep low levels out at the beginning so a decent game can take place...
if marines or aliens arnt being spawn killed they have a chance to use their brain, organize a strike force and gain levels smartly(is that a word?) and thus smooth out the game play.
Not to mention its also more realistic than spawn protection...you can add these elements without detracting from the atmosphere of the map...
If you stopped spawn camping the games dragged on for far too long.
A team could get to the point where they should have won ie "pretty much owning the spawn area and cc area, but could never win due to the newly spawning (and invunerable) players.
Combat was designed to be short fast paced games, not hour long (and boring) epics.
If the aliens know what their doing the game will be very shot
and extremely unenjoyable
Spawn Camping is good...later in the game...not right off the bat, which is what is happening now.
<b>Possible solution 1:</b>
Isolate marine spawn making it an area only accessable to marines with doors leading out to the rest of the map, a la 2fort (or whatever it's called) from TFC.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 1:</b>
The aliens can camp the doors making the marines unable to leave spawn. A clever alien team would send half the team to eat the CC leaving the marines powerless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets say 10 on 10. Marines have four exits, each one is totaly seperated from the other. Two lead directly to the CC, the other two lead outside the map. For a full on alien attack, they would need 4/5ths of their team to guard each door, assuming marines will leave out all doors. Also, with marines area of effect weapons, opening a door and throwing a grenade will soften them up. Add to it, the fact that marines all won't go out different doors. They can all rush one and kill two of them, and then the ones attacking the CC. And to add to that, you can one JP only exit in the cealing that is protected, allowing yet another exit. Camping? Please, you are just lazy if you allow the spawn to be camed.
Remember also, it would work both ways. Aliens would have their own protected spawns; you only concentrate on marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
b]Possible solution 2:[/b]
Have the marine spawn in a completely different area of the map.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 2:</b>
The time it takes to get from the new spawn to the CC may be too long, causing the CC to needlessly sustain heavy damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would do it for both teams. CC and hive will get damage, which can be fixed with weilders and Gorges. Of course if you do it for one team, you will have a problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Possible solution 3:</b>
Have the marines spawn in an unconnected part of the map and have them teleport in.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 3:</b>
Aliens camp the teleport, same problem as solution 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I am slow, you are stoped. Aliens can camp teleport destinations the same way they can camp spawns. Whats the difference? Tell me? Go on? NOTHING! Both times the marines will just apear. I don't even believe I suggested this idea, only that it could be done. You would have to have something similar to the aliens that would spawn them in another area and have them exit w/o a sence of direction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Possible solution 4:</b>
Give the marines 2-3 seconds of invulnerability on spawn. Giving them the precious few seconds to evade attack and attack an enemy with no fear of death. Give them time to sort their upgrades with no fear of death.
<b>Fatal problem with solution 4:</b>
None.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, you won't hear anyone say "Remove the spawn invinciblity, it is unfair that the marines get a free five seconds to attack and we can't do anything despite being level 10 Onos with tons of upgrades".
With the invurnablity, you still have the same problems with all of the above. Enemys can camp the spawn points (easier with cloak, you just stand behind them) can easily go from attacking the CC to marines then back again w/o much trouble. Plus you have the problem on invuranble people healing the hive or CC. Yes, that would be fun, all your damage is gone by a guy or two who is invincable.
There would be no "evading attack" there would just be attacking; which is unfair for both teams. You fail to realize the objective of the map is in the center of the enemy's spawn. Spawns are tradionly suposed to be free of enemy attack. If the spawns were protected in any way, there would be tons of time for people get get ready, instead of a few seconds.
Again, you only address the marines having protected spawns: both teams should. It is unfair for both sides to attack an objective within an enemy spawn. It makes the attackers mad that they have no time to really attack because eveyone is spawning, and according to you, attacking w/o fear of getting hurt. The people spawning are mad because they always have to counter attack enemy attacks when they spawn, and have no time to assest the situation.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anyway, what you are bringing up is a GAMEPLAY PROBLEM and not a MAPPING PROBLEM.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me crazy, but I thought MAPS effected GAMEPLAY. Is it just me? Or does how the made is made effect how you play it? Like how you would play a map that is a box compared to one that is one long hall. Maps and gameplay go hand in hand. This is precicely a mapping problem. There wouldn't be a gameplay problem if the maps had safer spawns.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This has nothing to do with us and is entirely of NO RELEVANCE since the issue has been addressed and a suitable solution has already been FOUND and IMPLEMENTED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Us? Are NS mappers an off shoot of the Borg? I am addressing what I see is a problem of CO maps, which for me, makes them unfun. Just because there is a solution implemented, dosen't mean it is the best one ever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
This post was brought to you by the letter "<b>logic</b>" and the number "<b>common sense</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly.
I would like to point out I'm not trying to insult anyones mapping ability or any specific map. If you were/are offend, I offer my apoligies.
I also think that anyone respawning both in classic or in combat should have a "Ready" message appear just before they respawn - about 4 secs before. This way they are at the controls and ready. Often the problem with respawning is that you simply have no warning that you are about to respawn (other than experience).
Flayra could go another step further and let the person respawning to "Spectate" their respawn location for about 5 secs before they spawn so they know what they are about to get into and thus can get their bearings before they appear. This would be useful in both strategy and combat
Just my opinions.
Remember, everyone, that all CO maps are essentially experiemental gameplay wise at this point - this IS a beta <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-Parallax
So, leave it be, it's fine the way it is, don't want to get camped? DONT DIE.