<!--QuoteBegin--othell+Jan 12 2004, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (othell @ Jan 12 2004, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> An interesting article that I think should be read...
<a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, there are several issues with that article that it fails to realise itself. The first is that these diseases are a family that all have a similar effect, in that they cause large spongy holes to appear in brain tissue. Aside from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, there is also Kuru, which cannibals contract. We know that Kuru is passed down by eating the brains of people infected with it, because in the pygmy societies it was noticed in, only the MEN who were allowed to eat their fallen opponents got the disease.
This either indicates a strong correlation between eating infected tissue and Kuru, or that women are somehow immune to Kuru. When cannabalistic practices were stopped, the problem ended.
You can make up your own mind as to the more likely idea.
Anyway.
Some things from that article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These same scientists also believe that disease can be spread by consumption of tissue infected with prions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Kuru example above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->for whether a particular microorganism, such as a prion, causes a specific disease, such as mad cow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, prions aren't microorganisms, they are misfolded proteins that cause other proteins to aggregate with them. The resulting complex forms a scaffold that punches holes in nervous tissue, which makes brain tissue resemble a sponge, hence the whole <b>spongiform</b> part. It is also interesting to observe that mad cow disease has basically ceased to appear since feeding cows back to other cows has been stopped. Again, there is some correlation here between eating infected meat of dead cows, and the disease.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developed by German physician and bacteriologist Robert Koch in 1890, the basic criteria of Koch’s Postulates as applied to the prion theory would be: (1) prions are present in every case of the mad cow disease; (2) prions must be isolated from a diseased cow and grown in pure culture; (3) mad cow disease should be reproduced when the cultured prions are inoculated into a healthy cow; and (4) the prion must be recoverable from the experimentally infected cow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, we're trying to prove that MCD is capable of transferring to humans (the point of the article) and to do that we'd have to use a human being (as Koch postulates). Anyone on these forums want to volunteer to see if they get a spongiform encephalophapy from eating/being injected with prions?
Anybody?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It could very well be that some virus or bacterium is responsible for the mad cow-type diseases ¯ but we might not ever know if NIH persists with its tunnel-vision. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering few unspecialised bacteria/viruses can get into the brain (they'd have to get past the blood brain barrier, IE chicken pox or meningococcal bacteria) and we could detect them via antibody or similar responces. Prions however do not appear to elicit antibody responces.
More than a few scientific papers disagree with statements like "nobody has proven prions to be infective", such as most of these:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would be much more impressive, however, if the prion theory satisfied Koch’s Postulates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know Fox news is still spouting their usual ignorant crap without researching first though. I was afraid they had written something intelligent. I suppose that author would also deny that sheep scrapie (Basically BSE in Sheep) is caused by a virus or bacterium, even though we are 100% aware a prion causes it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Testament+Dec 26 2003, 12:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Testament @ Dec 26 2003, 12:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess people will take offense to my post. There was quite a large outbreak of Mad Cow Disease in Canada, but I don't really remember anyone getting their panties in a big knot about it. There was alot of testing done on slaughter cows, though. Americans seem to think everything is a terrorist attack now-days, so I figured I'd slip that one in there too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be fair, the Mad Cow scare in Canada was a single cow as well, and evidence that the American case originated in Canada is a bit sketchy; the original proof they provided was unfounded.
And while these boards might not have discussed the Canadian incident much (if at all), it was sure a hot topic here in Canada. The U.S.A closed it's boarders to Canadian beef after a single case, and refused to open for quite some time, costing farmers $$$. Of course we had a solution, Canadians doubled (I believe) the amount of beef in their diet, demanding only Canadian beef.
<!--QuoteBegin--Trent Hawkins+Jan 14 2004, 01:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trent Hawkins @ Jan 14 2004, 01:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> evidence that the American case originated in Canada is a bit sketchy; the original proof they provided was unfounded. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehhh, no. As was posted previously (you did read the whole thread before posting, right?):
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The DNA tests on the cow, on one of its offspring and on the semen from the cow's sire, as well as records that show the cow came from a dairy farm in Alberta, make "us confident in the accuracy of this traceback," said Dr. Ron DeHaven, the Agriculture Department's chief veterinarian.
<b>Brian Evans, a Canadian agriculture official, said independent testing from a Canadian lab agreed.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I have read it... and while, yes, DNA testing was positive... the original proof provided (the supposed records indicating how old the cow was and such) did not match with the date of birth that was recorded for the same cow in Canada, and then lo and behold! "uh, yah, that was the age we ment!"
It just seems a tad suspicious to me (and a few others). *starts humming the "Blame Canada" song*
<!--QuoteBegin--Trent Hawkins+Jan 14 2004, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trent Hawkins @ Jan 14 2004, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *starts humming the "Blame Canada" song* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We need one of those for France....
26 cows from the us... 1 found... 3,000 killed because of it (they were in the same herd)...
the meat-packing plant that found the cow, was in portland Oregon, not more than 45 miles from my house.... they ground up the cow, so ground beef products are the ones containing maddened-cow.... Given information produced in the local newspapers, and local news channels, WinCo.. a grocery chain is the ones that recived the tainted beef... all customers that paid for ground beef, between certain days... will have their beef refunded and returned for non-tainted packages...
just so happens, i've got 4 pounds of mad cow in my freezer...
For those of you that are championing the end of McDonalds.... let me issue a few facts from <a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060938455/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-2048846-9023910#reader-link' target='_blank'>the book Fast Food Nation</a>....
in ONE hamberger Pattie... that was produced in the "big 13" (mid-west/centeral meat packing plants)... there are meat from no LESS than 20 cows.... if you have one cow that's tainted, you might not only ingest it without noticing, but you also, might not die from it... just milkd indegestion.
Local Fast-Food chains (burgerville for example is available in my area... another one is "in and out") the meat is LOCAL, and well, safer than the big chains. not only are you probably going to be buying your neighbors cow, but you' will know the butcher, the grinder, and be able to drive your car to the farm where the cow lived.
Comments
<a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html</a>
<a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, there are several issues with that article that it fails to realise itself. The first is that these diseases are a family that all have a similar effect, in that they cause large spongy holes to appear in brain tissue. Aside from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, there is also Kuru, which cannibals contract. We know that Kuru is passed down by eating the brains of people infected with it, because in the pygmy societies it was noticed in, only the MEN who were allowed to eat their fallen opponents got the disease.
This either indicates a strong correlation between eating infected tissue and Kuru, or that women are somehow immune to Kuru. When cannabalistic practices were stopped, the problem ended.
You can make up your own mind as to the more likely idea.
Anyway.
Some things from that article.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->These same scientists also believe that disease can be spread by consumption of tissue infected with prions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Kuru example above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->for whether a particular microorganism, such as a prion, causes a specific disease, such as mad cow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, prions aren't microorganisms, they are misfolded proteins that cause other proteins to aggregate with them. The resulting complex forms a scaffold that punches holes in nervous tissue, which makes brain tissue resemble a sponge, hence the whole <b>spongiform</b> part. It is also interesting to observe that mad cow disease has basically ceased to appear since feeding cows back to other cows has been stopped. Again, there is some correlation here between eating infected meat of dead cows, and the disease.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developed by German physician and bacteriologist Robert Koch in 1890, the basic criteria of Koch’s Postulates as applied to the prion theory would be: (1) prions are present in every case of the mad cow disease; (2) prions must be isolated from a diseased cow and grown in pure culture; (3) mad cow disease should be reproduced when the cultured prions are inoculated into a healthy cow; and (4) the prion must be recoverable from the experimentally infected cow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, we're trying to prove that MCD is capable of transferring to humans (the point of the article) and to do that we'd have to use a human being (as Koch postulates). Anyone on these forums want to volunteer to see if they get a spongiform encephalophapy from eating/being injected with prions?
Anybody?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It could very well be that some virus or bacterium is responsible for the mad cow-type diseases ¯ but we might not ever know if NIH persists with its tunnel-vision. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering few unspecialised bacteria/viruses can get into the brain (they'd have to get past the blood brain barrier, IE chicken pox or meningococcal bacteria) and we could detect them via antibody or similar responces. Prions however do not appear to elicit antibody responces.
More than a few scientific papers disagree with statements like "nobody has proven prions to be infective", such as most of these:
<a href='http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed' target='_blank'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...earch&DB=PubMed</a>
Click at leisure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would be much more impressive, however, if the prion theory satisfied Koch’s Postulates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know Fox news is still spouting their usual ignorant crap without researching first though. I was afraid they had written something intelligent. I suppose that author would also deny that sheep scrapie (Basically BSE in Sheep) is caused by a virus or bacterium, even though we are 100% aware a prion causes it.
To be fair, the Mad Cow scare in Canada was a single cow as well, and evidence that the American case originated in Canada is a bit sketchy; the original proof they provided was unfounded.
And while these boards might not have discussed the Canadian incident much (if at all), it was sure a hot topic here in Canada. The U.S.A closed it's boarders to Canadian beef after a single case, and refused to open for quite some time, costing farmers $$$. Of course we had a solution, Canadians doubled (I believe) the amount of beef in their diet, demanding only Canadian beef.
Ehhh, no. As was posted previously (you did read the whole thread before posting, right?):
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The DNA tests on the cow, on one of its offspring and on the semen from the cow's sire, as well as records that show the cow came from a dairy farm in Alberta, make "us confident in the accuracy of this traceback," said Dr. Ron DeHaven, the Agriculture Department's chief veterinarian.
<b>Brian Evans, a Canadian agriculture official, said independent testing from a Canadian lab agreed.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59426-2004Jan6.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...6-2004Jan6.html</a>
It just seems a tad suspicious to me (and a few others). *starts humming the "Blame Canada" song*
We need one of those for France....
Anyways... That is all.
the meat-packing plant that found the cow, was in portland Oregon, not more than 45 miles from my house.... they ground up the cow, so ground beef products are the ones containing maddened-cow.... Given information produced in the local newspapers, and local news channels, WinCo.. a grocery chain is the ones that recived the tainted beef... all customers that paid for ground beef, between certain days... will have their beef refunded and returned for non-tainted packages...
just so happens, i've got 4 pounds of mad cow in my freezer...
For those of you that are championing the end of McDonalds.... let me issue a few facts from <a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0060938455/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-2048846-9023910#reader-link' target='_blank'>the book Fast Food Nation</a>....
in ONE hamberger Pattie... that was produced in the "big 13" (mid-west/centeral meat packing plants)... there are meat from no LESS than 20 cows.... if you have one cow that's tainted, you might not only ingest it without noticing, but you also, might not die from it... just milkd indegestion.
Local Fast-Food chains (burgerville for example is available in my area... another one is "in and out") the meat is LOCAL, and well, safer than the big chains. not only are you probably going to be buying your neighbors cow, but you' will know the butcher, the grinder, and be able to drive your car to the farm where the cow lived.