Why Must Ns Games Be Decided So Fast?
Hunty
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19244Members
Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19244Members
We all know NS games are decided in the first,few minutes of a round.But...must it really be that way?Yes we can all list amazing comeback situations,but at least 90% of the time,when aliens can hold the marines near thier base for a few minutes,or vice-versa(though its a lot harder for the marines),or most of the alien/marine team is wiped out in the first battle....we all know whos going to win.
Should it really be that way?I mean after the first few minutes,most of the vets just think "oh okay we all know whos going to win now,so all we do is just kill as many of them as possible and stop them from getting rts".At that point,part of my brain just switches off and i go through the motions without thinking.What i want,is adrenaline pumping,frantic calls over voice-comm,furious battles with medspam,gorgs healing,comm trying out desperate strategies to take down a hive......
Granted the above stuff DOES happen,but it USAULLY doesnt.When was the last time you had a NS round that was REALLY fun,where both sides didnt know till the last minute who would win,and then at the end everyone would go "woah we won?!?!" instead of "oh jeeze it took you guys 15 minutes to kill us because you watned to onos,even though the marines couldnt aim and 4 marines cant kill 1 skulk?" or "omg finally you guys were outside our hive camping for god knows how long and your comm didnt want to seige....."
Flayra envishioned a tense,furious battle between 2 hive aliens(maybe an onos or 2,fades,etc) and HA marines mixed in with LA/JP.....but it just doesnt seem to happen anymore.Im sure it did happen in the beta-tests.But out here,on pubs,it just doesnt seem to happen.
P.S.The battle is decided before it is won.I admit that maybe my observations arnet correct,mostly due to "vets" stacking teams because they are afraid to fight non-newbies,and long,dragged out games because the winning team cant bear to kill off the losing team because they want more frags,and such.....
Should it really be that way?I mean after the first few minutes,most of the vets just think "oh okay we all know whos going to win now,so all we do is just kill as many of them as possible and stop them from getting rts".At that point,part of my brain just switches off and i go through the motions without thinking.What i want,is adrenaline pumping,frantic calls over voice-comm,furious battles with medspam,gorgs healing,comm trying out desperate strategies to take down a hive......
Granted the above stuff DOES happen,but it USAULLY doesnt.When was the last time you had a NS round that was REALLY fun,where both sides didnt know till the last minute who would win,and then at the end everyone would go "woah we won?!?!" instead of "oh jeeze it took you guys 15 minutes to kill us because you watned to onos,even though the marines couldnt aim and 4 marines cant kill 1 skulk?" or "omg finally you guys were outside our hive camping for god knows how long and your comm didnt want to seige....."
Flayra envishioned a tense,furious battle between 2 hive aliens(maybe an onos or 2,fades,etc) and HA marines mixed in with LA/JP.....but it just doesnt seem to happen anymore.Im sure it did happen in the beta-tests.But out here,on pubs,it just doesnt seem to happen.
P.S.The battle is decided before it is won.I admit that maybe my observations arnet correct,mostly due to "vets" stacking teams because they are afraid to fight non-newbies,and long,dragged out games because the winning team cant bear to kill off the losing team because they want more frags,and such.....
Comments
Well, I had one of those legendary games yesterday ^__^ (All well balanced and stuff). That was 1 out of 4 games. They occur rather often.. At least here on german servers =)
but what do you want to do against it? F4 if you know you loose? <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
With two teams of equally skilled players, epic battles are more frequent. However if one team has ONE good player (relative to the other players of course), that team will win. For as long as you people fool yourselves into thinking this is a team game, I will spawncamp your hive solo. I will rambo and kill all your res nodes with a shotgun. I will finish going Fade at 2:15 into the game and destroy each and every marine. It doesn't take much... Just one guy with good aim, a shotgun, and a mission- one guy to completely lopside the odds in a pub game and decide the game in the first few minutes of the round. The effect is multiplied as more skilled players are added to the equation.
This horrible dissonance of skill between players is blame to the innate stupidity of FPS gamers and the rather large fanbase of NS. More people logically assumes more n00bs. This only adds fuel to the fire that countries outside the US have "better skilled gamers" as their games are "epic and they don't have the player problems US servers have". This isn't the case, just an illusion because other countries have a smaller playerbase than the US. A small pool of players discourages newcomers, leaving only the hardcore NS gamers who, due to their dedication to the game, are relatively more skilled. It's not a country with superior gamers, it's a country without n00bs: A blessing and a curse, for the community will suffer in the end due to a smaller fanbase.
I don't know any way to change this problem past "n00bifying" the game to remove the huge skillgap. This only serves to discourage players on the other end of the spectrum as the game simply becomes less competative skill-wise. Personally, I wouldn't want to see this. I'd rather implement intermediate areas of skill by adding extra features for players to use. If "n00bifying" the game is what you want though, you'll love 3.0 Combat! Any scrub with Focus/Cloaking can pretend he's a superskulk. "Look at me! I can kill the best Natural-Selection player in one bite by sitting here! I must be good!" To throw poop at the fan I'll go out on a limb to say the game has enough "n00bification" elements already. But I digress, this is not the time or place to discuss them.
Edit: Engrish!
Tbh, Res-for-kills is probably to blame. Once a team starts to lose, the fact that one team has the advantage will mean more kills, hence more res, hence their advantage increases.
IMO, for the next version of NS the devs should try removing RFK for the marines, and instead they receive a small (note the small) increase to their normal resflow. After all, these ARE the resnodes that humans use anyway, whereas aliens are using an "alien" source of resources, so why shouldn't marine res towers be more efficient? This also encourages aliens to play aggresively, since they have nothing to lose by dying.
*edit* When I say the "next" version, I don't mean 3.0 of course.... *edit*
Wow, that was quite a good idea actually, I may have to make a trip to the S&I forums.
Dunno I played 1.04 like a religion because of the epicness of most games. I feel something missing when I get level 3 HA trains in 7 minutes
2.0 you get stupid aleins horeding res and it just take a lot of fun out of the game
Erm, sorry for pulling this off-topic. Although there isn't much to add.
The usual: tired of the same stuff in every game of NS? Switch to a server far away from those you usually play on. I mean like, if you live in the US, play on european or asian servers, australia, well, any non-australian or NZ server. You get the idea.
Not so much about the nationalities as how well a "tactic" -or more often, a way of playing- is spread. Farther away, more difference. [EDIT: Keep in mind this works both ways, as you might chance upon a server filled with nubligence or annoying lamers, or... worse]
I remember, that a 30 minutes game was a freaking great game, but now its usually marines in base shooting grenades at aliens, while aliens got 8 rt's and onosing again and again.
In 1.04 until half the game you didn't know who's gonna win. Now it's a "oh well, f4/quit isnt nice, lets just stay...".
I want the battles back, not the rush, rush, kill, rush games.
But oh well, ns is still great.
Should it really be that way?I mean after the first few minutes,most of the vets just think "oh okay we all know whos going to win now,so all we do is just kill as many of them as possible and stop them from getting rts".At that point,part of my brain just switches off and i go through the motions without thinking.What i want,is adrenaline pumping,frantic calls over voice-comm,furious battles with medspam,gorgs healing,comm trying out desperate strategies to take down a hive......
Granted the above stuff DOES happen,but it USAULLY doesnt.When was the last time you had a NS round that was REALLY fun,where both sides didnt know till the last minute who would win,and then at the end everyone would go "woah we won?!?!" instead of "oh jeeze it took you guys 15 minutes to kill us because you watned to onos,even though the marines couldnt aim and 4 marines cant kill 1 skulk?" or "omg finally you guys were outside our hive camping for god knows how long and your comm didnt want to seige....."
Flayra envishioned a tense,furious battle between 2 hive aliens(maybe an onos or 2,fades,etc) and HA marines mixed in with LA/JP.....but it just doesnt seem to happen anymore.Im sure it did happen in the beta-tests.But out here,on pubs,it just doesnt seem to happen.
P.S.The battle is decided before it is won.I admit that maybe my observations arnet correct,mostly due to "vets" stacking teams because they are afraid to fight non-newbies,and long,dragged out games because the winning team cant bear to kill off the losing team because they want more frags,and such..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
imagine a word class basketball team playing against an amateur masketball team (from HS for example), who do you think will win?
now make the same comparison to NS ... good people versus not so good ...
Longest NS game I ever played was 2 hours, with a constant battle of aliens into Subspace hive and dying from 7-8 grenades launched every few seconds. And Mines, and a massive Turret Farm.
I am aware that 1.0x had horrible lame tactics, but the best rounds in 1.0's are much much better than any in 2.0. This I feel is due to the loss of the so called 'epic' feel, and the sluggish endgame.
NS dev'ers, please give rfk another thought. Now that all the lame tactics of 1.0x's are effectively taken care of, give us our epic games back.
It wasn't epic, it was drawn out and boring come the end, and it's why it needed a change. Right now, marines control the early res, and aliens can either take down that res, or rely on RFK to get to a life-form more capable for the job. Some of your scenarios of games being decided in two minutes are more likely to be skill displacement than lack of game balance anyway.
Can we stop looking back on 1.04 and going on about how great it was, because quite frankly it wasn't...it was boring drawn out tosh which was "fun" for marine players because they rarely lost, and if they did, they always got to go through all their tech doing it.
-Lee
The 1.04 romanticists aren't exactly right. Well most of the time in 1.04 we won countless games by holding no more than TWO res points for 10 minutes then jetpack/hmg rushing with one or two guys to take down a hive or 2. This made for extremely boring play, with most of the time making sure we just held station res while the aliens got every other res yet still had nothing to combat us. Then came the fun rushing part. In which all teams had offence chambers+lerks to combat, but because we had some pretty damn good rushers we'd usually take the hive out in 1 shot. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
So even in a team that won most of their matches, 1.04 games were usually long and boring.
Dude, we arent saying to bring back 1.04. That we can do ourselves. EVERYONE understands the problems in 1.0x's... the lockdowns, the jetpack rushes, the map exploits everyone knows they exist, and noone has denied their existance. But look, have you ever had a good game in 1.04? Or are the only things you remember are the lockdowns? When the games are good (there were, dont say youve never experienced it) they were great (dont feel like using the word epic...feels cheap now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) Ive never experienced that ever again ever since 2.0 came out. And cant you tell by the word 'epic' that we arent refering to the jp rushes? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, what was so bad about 2 hive lockdowns? Was it that once its in place, aliens cant possibly win, and can only sit and watch while marines tech up to slaughter them? How is this different than most 2.0 games? Nearly all 2.0 games are decided 5-10mins in (okay, im pulling numbers outta me arse, but I mean a short time amount of time), and whats the rest of the game like? Yep, the losing team sitting on their arse waiting for the winning team to tech up to take them out. And this is EXACTLY what we are complaining about. NS 2.0 actually feels like 2 hive lockdowns most of the time, except this time, it can happen to either team!
I am not saying 2.0 is a pile of <insert ye favourite word here>. No, that is just plainly wrong. Great times can be had with 2.0 as well. However, the speed at which the winner is decided and the length of the endgame makes a lot of 2.0 games feel like 2 hive lockdowns.
reason for ban: about 6 games in a row, i gorged, built 2 dc's, then just kept rushing there base, i ended it all my self, about 6 times in a row. in under 5 minutes each game.
admin got angry and banned me....i must play on really stupid servers <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: another reason this happens is because u can get an onos in under 5 minutes if you kill enough marines really quickly, my record in a 12 vs 12 server is ONOS in 5minutes and 49 seconds, or 4 minutes and 59 seconds, 1 of those.
and of course, when i onosed, the game was over for marines.
Dude you freaking rock! Ok well, seriously though, that is incredible in that it has all the forerunning NS concepts: Strategic Marines, Alien Heroics etc. I would love to play a game like that, perhaps in about half that time because I couldn't afford to play for so long. Nonetheless, it is good to hear that there are servers where good long games take place, instead of the ever so popular "Well back in 1.04 we had long games and I'll tell you what..." If you don't mind my asking, what server do you play on?
And to everyone else who manage to come across epic battles in 2.0, good going, it's not easy to replicate, and I have only experienced a few personally, but those are the ones you think about when you think about NS.
They tried to be "balanced" and it laster for SEVERAL YEARS. Now that NS is balanced...
BTW, I completely fail to see how NS has anything to do with WW1. Lay off on the crack cocaine.
i dont belive you. simply because games that go for longer then 1hour, if you notice everyones ping goes up by an extra 60 or 70, and goes higher and higher by the hour, unless its only on the servers i play on :S .....
a 6hour game would mean you all have at least 400 ping wich would mean everyone would leave.
and also, a 6hour game would just suck **** cause ive got a plastic chair and my **** would fall off <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Should it really be that way?I mean after the first few minutes,most of the vets just think "oh okay we all know whos going to win now,so all we do is just kill as many of them as possible and stop them from getting rts".At that point,part of my brain just switches off and i go through the motions without thinking.What i want,is adrenaline pumping,frantic calls over voice-comm,furious battles with medspam,gorgs healing,comm trying out desperate strategies to take down a hive......
Granted the above stuff DOES happen,but it USAULLY doesnt.When was the last time you had a NS round that was REALLY fun,where both sides didnt know till the last minute who would win,and then at the end everyone would go "woah we won?!?!" instead of "oh jeeze it took you guys 15 minutes to kill us because you watned to onos,even though the marines couldnt aim and 4 marines cant kill 1 skulk?" or "omg finally you guys were outside our hive camping for god knows how long and your comm didnt want to seige....."
Flayra envishioned a tense,furious battle between 2 hive aliens(maybe an onos or 2,fades,etc) and HA marines mixed in with LA/JP.....but it just doesnt seem to happen anymore.Im sure it did happen in the beta-tests.But out here,on pubs,it just doesnt seem to happen.
P.S.The battle is decided before it is won.I admit that maybe my observations arnet correct,mostly due to "vets" stacking teams because they are afraid to fight non-newbies,and long,dragged out games because the winning team cant bear to kill off the losing team because they want more frags,and such..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, vets are clan members meaning they constantly face other vets in 6v6 scrims or matchs....... so I dont think your totally correct in your statement of them being afraid <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.